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Title: No, The American Founders Were Not Libertarians
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2017/05/02 ... can-founders-not-libertarians/
Published: May 2, 2017
Author: Jonathan Ashbach
Post Date: 2018-01-25 08:43:41 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 5749
Comments: 148

Libertarians are still trying to claim the American Founding as theirs. One occasionally hears the argument that the principles of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence are libertarian. One of the most recent instances of this claim resides in Nikolai Wenzel’s first-rate defense of libertarianism in “Selfish Libertarians and Socialist Conservatives?” (Stanford: 2017). Yet a closer look at the Founders’ thought about government makes clear that it was anything but libertarian.

Wenzel notes there are different types of libertarianism. He clarifies that “unless I specify otherwise, I will use the term libertarian to mean minarchy.” Minarchist libertarianism holds that government exists only to protect individuals’ rights. “A libertarian government is forbidden from doing almost everything,” Wenzel states. “In fact, a libertarian government is empowered to do only one thing: defend individual rights.”

Wenzel’s argument for a libertarian Founding rests largely on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. Indeed, his claims do seem superficially persuasive.

The Constitution limits the federal government to the exercise of a few specific powers. Surely, this is a classic instance of libertarian philosophy limiting the sphere of government, is it not? As Wenzel argues, “By and large, the enumerated powers granted to the federal government under Article I, section 8, are in line with libertarian philosophy.” He recognizes that elements of the Constitution violate libertarian principles, but his overall evaluation is that “The U.S. Constitution was largely a libertarian document.”

The Declaration, argues Wenzel, is more explicitly libertarian. It declares that all possess natural rights and that governments are created to protect those rights. “There, then,” says Wenzel, “is the political philosophy of the Declaration: The purpose of government is to protect rights. Period.” He calls this “a minimalist philosophy with which any libertarian would agree.”

The Fatal Flaw: A Different Understanding of Rights So far, all of this sounds quite convincing, but there is a fatal flaw in Wenzel’s argument. Both libertarians and the American Founders describe the purpose of government as the protection of rights. But by “rights” they mean two very different things.

For Wenzel, respecting others’ rights simply means refraining from coercion. The state exists only to protect rights, and therefore, “the state itself may not engage in any coercion, except to prevent coercion.” He argues that participants in immoral trades, such as “The drug pusher, the prostitute, and the pornographer,” do not violate others’ rights “as long as they do not coercively impose their wares on others.” Nor does the polygamist.

Wenzel’s coauthor Nathan Schlueter points out the problem with this position: “Libertarianism essentially denies that…moral harms exist and maintains that the only real injustice is coercion. Accordingly, it promotes a legal regime in which some individuals are legally entitled to harm others in noncoercive ways.” Wenzel assumes that only coercion violates rights. The Founders profoundly disagreed.

A Second Look at the Founding Creed Think again about the alleged libertarianism of the Founding documents. Wenzel makes a common mistake in assuming that the limitation of the national government to a few specific enumerated powers reflects libertarian belief. But this limitation has nothing to do with libertarianism. It has everything to do with federalism.

The federal government was only created to fulfill certain limited, particular purposes. It was not created to do everything the Founders believed government should do. Most of those functions—and, on the whole, those less compatible with libertarianism—were entrusted to the states. The fact that the enumerated powers of the federal government are largely consistent with libertarianism does not mean the Founders were libertarians. It means nothing at all, in fact. It is a conclusion based on only half the data.

Actually, the enumeration of federal powers is more an accident of history than anything else. James Madison’s original proposal was that the national government simply possess blanket authority “to legislate in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent.” The Constitutional Convention ultimately chose to list its powers, believing this was less liable to abuse, but this decision was by no means dictated by the Founders’ beliefs about government.

As for the Declaration, it does not say that government exists only to protect individuals’ life, liberty, and property. A libertarian right to be free of coercion is not intended here. Instead, the Declaration states that life and liberty are included “among” the natural rights of mankind, as is something else referred to as “the pursuit of happiness.” The right to happiness was not simply sweet-sounding rhetoric. It was the centerpiece of the Founders’ political theory.

Government for the Common Good The Founders’ political theory was not libertarian, because they believed that the preeminent human right was happiness. The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780, for example, states: “All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness” (emphases added).

As the language makes clear, the rights of man could be expressed as a list of rights that includes life, liberty, and property. But the great right that encompassed all others was the right to pursue (or even obtain!) happiness. Assertions of this right to happiness appear in many Founding-Era writings, including other state constitutions.

The purpose of government, in turn, was to help people achieve happiness by promoting their good. Delegate to the Constitutional Convention James Wilson wrote one of the most thorough expositions of the Founding philosophy—his famous “Lectures on Law.” In them, he explains that the purpose of government is to promote the well-being of those subject to it: “Whatever promotes the greatest happiness of the whole,” that is what government should do.

Once again, this sort of talk is commonplace. Twelve of the 13 original states adopted a constitution in the Founding Era. Every one of these states described the purpose of government as promoting the well-being of citizens. The New Hampshire constitution of 1784 is typical, holding that “all government…is…instituted for the general good.”

What Conservative Governance Means Because the general good includes the moral good, this meant discouraging immoral behavior. Wenzel speaks of voluntary drug and sexual matters as beyond the purview of a libertarian government. But such laws were universal in early America.

Thus Mark Kann writes in “Taming Passion for the Public Good” that “the state’s right to regulate sexual practices…was undisputed” in early America, and Wilson notes bigamy, prostitution, and indecency as offenses subject to punishment on Founding political theory. Similarly, in “Federalist” 12, Alexander Hamilton cites the beneficial impact on morals as a justification for federal taxation of alcoholic imports.

The Founders used government to discourage other noncoercive activities, as well. In 1778, Congress recommended to the states “suppressing theatrical entertainments, horse-racing, gambling, and such other diversions as are productive of idleness, dissipation, and a general depravity of principles and manners.” In his book, “The People’s Welfare,” William Novak details the extensive regulation of everything from lotteries and usury to Sunday travel, coarse language, and poor relief that was the norm during the Founding Era.

The American Founders believed that government exists to protect rights, just as libertarians do. But their understanding of rights was radically different from the libertarian understanding. Libertarians like Wenzel believe that protecting rights means prohibiting coercion. The Founders believed that protecting rights meant seeking the moral and material well- being of society. The American Founding was conservative, not libertarian. Libertarians will have to look elsewhere to support their beliefs.

Jonathan Ashbach is a PhD student in politics at Hillsdale College. Jonathan has worked in the hospitality industry and as assistant editor for the Humboldt Economic Index. His work has also been published on Patheos and Christianity Today.

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#108. To: A K A Stone (#103)

-- white/paulsen WANTS States to have the power to legislate morality, -- to be able to infringe upon our basic rights.

Yes this is what prompted my response. --- A K A Stone

And your comment? -- Do you agree with misterwhite?

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   13:42:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: tpaine (#107)

No, murder should not be legal, because everyone has a right to life.

Our right to life is not a question of morality or religious beliefs..

Can anyone here explain why A K A Stone could conceivably imagine that his remark above has any relationship to my post preceding?

Yes you are correct. It would be immoral.

So obviously should be and is illegal.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   13:42:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: tpaine (#108)

And your comment? -- Do you agree with misterwhite?

Yes for the tenth time I want the state to have the power to make murder illegal because it is immoral.

Why don't you get it?

Sure the government shouldn't be able to tell you to go to church or anything like that. But they do legislate morality and they should.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   13:44:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: A K A Stone (#109)

It would be immoral.

Our right to life (thus laws against murder) are not a question of morality or religious beliefs..

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   13:51:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: A K A Stone (#110) (Edited)

white/paulsen WANTS States to have the power to legislate morality, -- to be able to infringe upon our basic rights. ----- And your comment? -- Do you agree with misterwhite?

--- they do legislate morality and they should. --- A K A Stone

You WANT States to have the power to legislate morality, -- to be able to infringe upon our basic rights.

Sad comment, -- thanks for your admission.

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   14:01:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: tpaine (#111)

Someone who has their head up their asshole (that would be you) their opinion is just a fart and they don't matter.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   14:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: tpaine (#112) (Edited)

You WANTS States to have the power to legislate morality, - - to be able to infringe upon our basic rights.

Yes I want them to be able to make murder illegal.

But people with their heads up their asshole have a different view. They want every immoral act to be unconstitutional. So they distort and lie to try to make imaginary points.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   14:14:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: tpaine (#112)

It would be constitutional if an amendment was passed that required everyone to go to church.

I don't support that but it would clearly be constitutional. Because there are zero limits on what kind of amendment can be adopted.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   14:17:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: A K A Stone, yall (#113)

Your opinion that you WANT States to have the power to legislate morality, --- matters..

Luckily not many agree with misterwhite or you...

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   14:18:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: tpaine (#116)

You have no say they will do what they do. If your cult ran things murder and rape would be legal. Because in your imaginary constitution there is an imaginary about laws being moral would be illegal.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   14:23:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: A K A Stone, yall, (#115)

It would be constitutional if an amendment was passed that required everyone to go to church.

I don't support that but it would clearly be constitutional. Because there are zero limits on what kind of amendment can be adopted.

A K A Stone

That one is worth bookmarking.

Thanks.

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   14:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: All (#118)

--- there are zero limits on what kind of amendment can be adopted.

A K A Stone

Then in your opinion an amendment to repeal the 2nd would be constitutional?

Or do you claim that as a fact?

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   14:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: A K A Stone (#115)

--- there are zero limits on what kind of amendment can be adopted.

A K A Stone

Then in your opinion an amendment to repeal the 2nd would be constitutional?

Or do you claim that as a fact?

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   14:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: tpaine (#119)

Then in your opinion an amendment to repeal the 2nd would be constitutional?

Or do you claim that as a fact?

Unfortunately it would pass constitutional muster.

Is your position that repealing prohibition was unconstitutional?

Anything can be changed via the amendment process.

Maybe I'm mistaken. Can you quote from the constitution where repealing amendments is not allowed?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   14:59:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: tpaine, A K A Stone (#120)

Then in your opinion an amendment to repeal the 2nd would be constitutional?

Or do you claim that as a fact?

It is a fact. Every word of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and every decision issued by the Supremes can be amended by 37 states agreeing to do so.

If you want to repeal the Second, bring back slavery, establish a communist regime or a Nazi government, outlaw white people, whatever, get your 37 states. And you don't need Congress either. If you're sure you have the 37 states, you can convene a constitutional convention just like the one that wrote and ratified our constitution originally.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-27   15:01:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: tpaine (#118)

You're welcome.

Can you explain what types of amendments to the constitution are not allowed and source it?

The constitution is not a perfect document. Unlike the holy Bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   15:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Tooconservative (#122)

It is a fact. Every word of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and every decision issued by the Supremes can be amended by 37 states agreeing to do so.

If you want to repeal the Second, bring back slavery, establish a communist regime or a Nazi government, outlaw white people, whatever, get your 37 states. And you don't need Congress either. If you're sure you have the 37 states, you can convene a constitutional convention just like the one that wrote and ratified our constitution originally.

Tooconservative

Now you are going to be accused of hating the second amendment.

Neither you or I support that but recognize the fact that by amendment they can do whatever they damn well please and it would be constitutional.

Now if they had some kind of clause in their that all amendments and laws had to be MORAL then we could have a fighting chance as if it was immoral to disarm the citizenry.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   15:06:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: A K A Stone (#123)

The constitution is not a perfect document. Unlike the holy Bible.

You're debating with a nitwit. A self proclaimed constitutional scholar... and the most constitutionally protected person he knows.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-01-27   15:10:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: GrandIsland (#125)

I thought he relied on the text of the document. I was mistaken. He shows faux support for the constitution.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-27   15:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: A K A Stone (#124)

Now you are going to be accused of hating the second amendment.

Only by idiots. The Constitution provides for amendment for any and all purposes. No section of it is declared off-limits to being amended.

37 states. All you need.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-27   15:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: A K A Stone, tpaine (#126) (Edited)

It's fun to recall how we got the last amendment to the Constitution. It had been entirely forgotten by everyone, being two hundred years old. A student wrote a paper about it, got a bad grade, made it his job to get the states to ratify it, and finally succeeded.

The Twenty-seventh Amendment (Amendment XXVII) to the United States Constitution prohibits any law that increases or decreases the salary of members of Congress from taking effect until the start of the next set of terms of office for Representatives. It is the most recent amendment to be adopted, but one of the first proposed.

It was submitted by Congress to the states for ratification on September 25, 1789, along with eleven other proposed amendments. While ten of these twelve proposals were ratified in 1791 to become the Bill of Rights, what would become the Twenty-seventh Amendment and the proposed Congressional Apportionment Amendment did not get ratified by enough states for them to also come into force with the first ten amendments. The proposed congressional pay amendment was largely forgotten until 1982 when Gregory Watson researched it as a student at the University of Texas at Austin and began a new campaign for its ratification. Watson's role has been widely popularized, since his original paper proposing the idea received a poor grade (although a current Professor at Texas, Zachary Elkins, engineered a grade change in 2017 in light of Watson's accomplishments). The amendment eventually became part of the United States Constitution on May 5, 1992, completing a record-setting ratification period of 202 years, 7 months, and 10 days.

Apparently, he took that bad grade personally. His "campaign" to get it ratified mostly consisted of writing letters to state legislators around the country. But where else in the world could an unconnected nobody get a constitutional amendment ratified? Nowhere. It's a great little story.

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

The Twenty-seventh Amendment to the Constitution

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-27   15:24:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Liberator (#80)

Most immigration is from Latin America, and they do share Judaea-Christian ethic.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-27   16:41:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Tooconservative, y'all (#122) (Edited)

It is a fact. Every word of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and every decision issued by the Supremes can be amended by 37 states agreeing to do so.

If you want to repeal the Second, bring back slavery, establish a communist regime or a Nazi government, outlaw white people, whatever, get your 37 states. And you don't need Congress either. If you're sure you have the 37 states, you can convene a constitutional convention just like the one that wrote and ratified our constitution originally.

If you can get a bunch of crazies to repeal the Second, bring back slavery, establish a communist regime or a Nazi government, outlaw white people, whatever, in 37 states, --- sure, they could claim they were amending our Constitution, --- but in reality they would be destroying the constitutional principles our republic is built on.

Our Republic would cease to exist upon a 'ratification' of this type...

The inalienable rights protected by our Constitution cannot be 'amended away...

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   19:19:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: A K A Stone (#126)

I thought he relied on the text of the document.

Only when someone argues that the principles of the Constitution can be ignored, do I plead for and rely upon common sense.

The inalienable rights protected by our Constitution cannot be 'amended away'...

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   19:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: tpaine (#130)

The inalienable rights protected by our Constitution cannot be 'amended away...

It seems that way but I have been surprised over the years that the Left never tried to repeal the Second Amendment. You know how badly they want to.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-27   19:54:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Tooconservative (#132)

I have been surprised over the years that the Left never tried to repeal the Second Amendment.

I'd bet they realize that even a serious attempt to do so would start a guerilla style war, at least...

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-27   20:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: tpaine (#133)

I'd bet they realize that even a serious attempt to do so would start a guerilla style war, at least...

Or they're just waiting for a chance to hold a majority on the Court to revisit the Second Amendment and suddenly discover that it only applied to colonial militias after all. You know their line of argument on this; we've heard it often enough.

After all, there was no rational or legal basis for Roe v. Wade or for sodomy marriage. That didn't stop the Court from imposing them as constitutional law.

Say, this thread has been quite the success. I'm sure you're enjoying the topics raised.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-27   21:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Tooconservative (#132)

It seems that way but I have been surprised over the years that the Left never tried to repeal the Second Amendment. You know how badly they want to.

They don't do it for the same reason that the Right doesn't amend the Constitution to outlaw abortion: they don't have the votes, and they know it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-28   1:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Tooconservative (#134)

Or they're just waiting for a chance to hold a majority on the Court to revisit the Second Amendment and suddenly discover that it only applied to colonial militias after all. You know their line of argument on this; we've heard it often enough.

After all, there was no rational or legal basis for Roe v. Wade or for sodomy marriage. That didn't stop the Court from imposing them as constitutional law.

Say, this thread has been quite the success. I'm sure you're enjoying the topics raised.

Right, but a Republican-controlled court gave us Roe, Casey, Kelo and sodomy marriage.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-28   1:44:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Tooconservative (#134) (Edited)

--- they're just waiting for a chance to hold a majority on the Court to revisit the Second Amendment and suddenly discover that it only applied to colonial militias after all. You know their line of argument on this; we've heard it often enough. --- After all, there was no rational or legal basis for Roe v. Wade or for sodomy marriage. That didn't stop the Court from imposing them as constitutional law.

-- this thread has been quite the success. I'm sure you're enjoying the topics raised.

You got it; -- considering that the original purpose was to knock libertarianism, gotta love how it's turned out..

Btw, -- maybe someone should start a thread about the constitutionality of laws requiring vasectomy or prohibiting church marriages.

tpaine  posted on  2018-01-28   1:51:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Vicomte13 (#136)

Why do you lie about faggot pretending to be married? I know because you are a Catholic and Catholics are largely leftists.

The Republican appointees are the only ones who voted against it you fucking dumb ass Catholic false god worshipper.

Every one of your fellow thief democrats voted for it. So get your head out of Hillary's ass.

Everyone knows it was the heretic catholics who gave us faggot marriage. Just like all thos Catholic fag articles you ignored to cover for your faggot pedophile fake church cult.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-28   9:22:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: A K A Stone (#138)

Everyone knows it was the heretic catholics who gave us faggot marriage. J

Everyone knows that it was the Republicans who gave us abortion on demand. Everyone knows that it was the Republicans who gave us eminent domain for private actors. Everyone knows it was the Republicans who gave us sodomy marriage.

Everyone knows this because the Republicans have controlled the Supreme Court continuously - with a few months break of a tie (in which nothing happened) - since 1969.

You lie and twist and rage and scream to try to distract attention from the fact that YOU support all of this by continuing to support the Republican party. You are part of the problem. Instead, you attack God, the people of God, everything and everybody, like a petulant child having a tantrum. Look in the mirror: you are the problem. You are loyal to evil, and it is impossible to have any sort of reasonable conversation with you, because you're an abusive jerk.

Therefore, the world YOU MADE by being a Republican and supporting them, galls you, but you're incapable of opening your eyes, and you are incapable of getting out of the box you've put yourself in, and you bite every hand offered to you in friendship or alliance, because we will not bend the knee in respect to your party, the Republican Party. It is evil, and you are evil for being part of it, and stupid for being unable to see what everybody knows.

That's the truth.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-28   9:34:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Vicomte13 (#139)

You lie and twist

That is what you do when you talk about the Bible. You also do it with faggot prete d marriage when you lie and say the republicans gave it to us when they were the only ones who opposed. No protestants voted for gay marriage. How many fat loving Catholics did.

I guess according to moron or liar Vic the way to change it would to appoint more democrats huh?

No dumb ass liar you would have to appoint more Republicans.

I'm ot saying all Republicans are good because they are not, many suck more then you do.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-28   9:41:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Vicomte13 (#139)

you attack God, the people of God,

The pope isnt god. In fact if im allowed ill request that the heat from his lying body heats my room.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-28   9:43:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: Vicomte13 (#139)

Therefore, the world YOU MADE by being a Republican and supporting them, galls you, but you're incapable of opening your eyes, and you

Im just being accurate. I know about half or ore of the elected Republicans suck.

But you would pick a murdering thief for President over a born again Christian. Yes I'm saying what you said again. You prefer murderering thieves like axillary over christians like Ted Cruz.

Oh did I mention you are a thief at heart also. Expecting people who work to give to idle hands. In total disrespect and disobedience to gods word.

Did I also mention that I love you and wish the best for you, but sometimes you can be so stupid for someone as gifted as you are. I react this way to you out of frustration that you ignore truth, that you dont6 back pledge the evil in the Catholic church. No everything they do is not evil they do do some good also. But a few good works doesn't cut the muster.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-01-28   9:49:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Vicomte13 (#129)

Most immigration is from Latin America, and they do share Judaea-Christian ethic.

Looked over my post to you, Vic.

I believe I know what your point is, but don't want to speculate. However in this case I must...

Are you justifying the Illegal Invaders from Central America and Mexico based on their supposed shared/common Judeo-Christian ethic with that of our Founders?

Liberator  posted on  2018-01-28   11:36:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: Liberator (#143)

Looked over my post to you, Vic.

I believe I know what your point is, but don't want to speculate. However in this case I must...

Are you justifying the Illegal Invaders from Central America and Mexico based on their supposed shared/common Judeo-Christian ethic with that of our Founders?

No, I'm not justifying illegal immigration at all.

I am saying that it could be worse. We could be like Europe, overrun with illegal, and legal, immigration from the very part of the world and that tried to storm Europe by force several times and failed. The Muslim world does NOT share the common Judaeo-Christian ethic as the European world it's invading.

We face a much more benign situation. Latinos are as Judaeo-Christian as Anglos. There's a difference in language, to be sure, and some cultural differences, and of course the biggest issue is the matter of how much poverty we want to import. But at least - thank God - the Mexicans coming across the Border have the same basic ancient moral values, rooted in the same ancient religion. The differences are real, but they're on the level of culture, not on the level of fundamental beliefs about God and right and wrong. Everything that's morally wrong in America, also wrong in every country between America and Tierra del Fuego. We're facing a difficult cultural and economic situation, but not the erasing our religious culture, at least not from Latino immigration.

We ARE facing the erasing of our religious culture, but that is coming from within, from Americans themselves, native citizens, abandoning the Faith. The Mexican immigrants, illegals included, are as a whole more likely to be practicing Christians than the general native born population.

THAT really is a problem, but we have to lay that problem at the feet of Western philosophy, not immigration.

The same is true in Europe. The rise of Islam is notable there, but that is because of immigration, not conversion. Western European have largely abandoned Christianity, and this is once again due to Western philosophy. They haven't replaced it with Islam, they've replaced it with practical atheism, or "agnostic apathism" (my word): "I don't know, and I don't care". If the birth rate were still good, that wouldn't matter, but European birth rates are in the sewer, far below replacement. Which means that the population is hollowing out - and being replaced by Muslim immigrants from North Africa in particular. Also from Turkey and the Levant. That DOES mean that Judaeo-Christian beliefs and moral systems ARE imperiled by the immigration - the natives have lost theirs, and the rising numbers of Muslims are pushing forward theirs instead.

So, that was what my comment was aimed at: Latino immigration isn't unhinging our Judaeo-Christian culture - if anything, it's prolonging its life. The whiter and more European the population, the more it has followed Europe into atheism, or at best "apathism".

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-28   13:01:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: A K A Stone (#142)

Did I also mention that I love you and wish the best for you

I don't buy this "Christian love" business. Words mean things, and that's not love.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-01-28   13:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13, Liberator, redleghunter, hondo68 (#142)

But a few good works doesn't cut the muster.

But it does cut the cheese! ‹/rimshot

BTW, I always heard it was "cut the mustard". Which makes no more sense than "cut the muster".

So we can turn to online resources and google up the correct answer. We'll try Urban Dictionary.

Doesn't Cut the Mustard

This phrase originates from the Old English craft of Mustard making.

The chief mustard maker or Mustardeer would make their mustard in large oaken barrels, allowing each barrel to mature for a number of months. This maturing of the mustard produced a thick, leathery crust at the top of the barrel which would need to be removed before the contents could be tested.

The consistency of the crust would be such that a specialised cutting implement was required to remove it. Initially a modified scythe was used but this often lead to the crust being 'dragged' at certain points and falling into the rest of the mustard causing it to lose some of its distinctive flavour.

Over many years a specialised blade was developed that had an extremely thin leading edge which widened towards the centre and then tapered at the trailing edge although not to a sharp point. This allowed the blade to skim the majority of the topcrust off, leaving a very thin slice which would be left on to protect the mustard.

Due to the coarse, leathery nature of the topcrust the blade, over time, would develop dull spots along it's length and thus required constant monitoring.

When it was time to remove the topcrust the senior Mustardeer would instruct his apprentice to pass him the blade and would attempt to slice thorough the top leathery layer. The Mustardeer would know immediately if the blade was not sufficiently keen enough to complete the task and he would pass the blade back to the apprentice and say to him "I'm sorry, but That Doesn't Cut the Mustard"

The phrase has since passed into common usage describing anything that does not meet a certain standard.

Okay, that sounds completely ridiculous. Let's try again with PhraseFinder.

What's the meaning of the phrase 'Cut the mustard'?

To succeed; to come up to expectations.

What's the origin of the phrase 'Cut the mustard'?

Why cutting mustard was chosen as an example of high quality is unclear. As always in such circumstances, there are no shortage of guesses. Some of these allude to the literal difficulty of cutting mustard in its various forms; for example:

- Mustard seed, which is hard to cut with a knife on account of its being small and shiny.
- Mustard plants, which are tough and stringy and grow densely.
- Culinary mustard, which is cut (diluted) and made more palatable by the addition of vinegar.
- Dried mustard paste, which was reputedly used to coat meat and then dried to form a crust.

There is no evidence to support these derivations and they give the impression of having been retro-fitted in an attempt at plausibility.

Another supposed explanation is that the phrase is simply a mistaken version of the military expression 'cut the muster'. This appears believable at first sight. A little research shows it not to be so. Muster is the calling together of soldiers, sailors, prisoners, to parade for inspection or exercise. To cut muster would be a breach of discipline; hardly a phrase that would have been adopted with the meaning of success or excellence. This line of thought appears to have been influenced by confusion with the term 'pass muster', which would have the correct meaning, but which could hardly be argued to be the origin of 'cut the mustard'. The OED, which is the most complete record of the English language, along with all of the other reference works I've checked, don't record 'cut the muster' at all. The fact that documented examples of 'cut the mustard' are known from many years before any for 'cut the muster' would appear to rule out the latter as the origin.

There has been an association between the heat and piquancy of mustard and the zest and energy of people's behaviour. This dates back to at least 1672, when the term 'as keen as mustard' is first recorded. 'Up to mustard' or just 'mustard' means up to standard in the same way as 'up to snuff'. 'Cutting' has also long been used to mean 'exhibiting', as in the phrase 'cutting a fine figure'. Unless some actual evidence is found for the other proposed explanations, the derivation of 'cutting the mustard' as an alternative way of saying 'exhibiting one's high standards' is by far the most likely.

Whatever the coinage, the phrase itself emerged in the USA towards the end of the 19th century. The earliest example in print that I've found is from the Kansas newspaper The Ottawa Herald, August, 1889:

He tried to run the post office business under Cleveland's administration, but "couldn't cut the mustard."

The use of quotation marks and the lack of any explanation of the term in that citation imply that 'cut the mustard' was already known to Kansas readers and earlier printed examples may yet turn up.

So now I'm not sure if AKA thinks the Catholics are skipping out on lining up for muster so they can sneak off to supervise their apprentices sharpening blades for cutting rank mustard scum out of a barrel.

So, no one knows what it means but we've all heard it. And about all we do know is that it was in a newspaper back in 1889 in Kansas. There is a ready explanation.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-01-29   7:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Tooconservative, A K A Stone, Vicomte13, redleghunter, hondo68 (#146)

But a few good works doesn't cut the muster.

But it does cut the cheese! ‹/rimshot›

But seriously folks...TC's next gig will be at the Ramada Inn on Rt 130 over the weekend...

I will never look at my Gulden's the same ever again after this.

Liberator  posted on  2018-01-29   12:34:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: Vicomte13 (#144)

No, I'm not justifying illegal immigration at all. I am saying that it could be worse.

We could be like Europe, overrun with illegal, and legal, immigration from the very part of the world and that tried to storm Europe by force several times and failed. The Muslim world does NOT share the common Judaeo-Christian ethic as the European world it's invading.

We face a much more benign situation.

Relatively speaking, yes, the Illegal La Raza Invasion is better than a Death Cultist Muzzie Invasion. But then all we're doing is choosing just which poison kills us, and how quickly.

Latinos are as Judaeo-Christian as Anglos. There's a difference in language, to be sure, and some cultural differences, and of course the biggest issue is the matter of how much poverty we want to import. But at least - thank God - the Mexicans coming across the Border have the same basic ancient moral values, rooted in the same ancient religion.

Disagree totally.

These people are NOT "Anglos" in racial composition, DNA, or especially history, but mostly descendants of Mayan, Inca, or other native ancient South American tribes, tinged with European blood.

(Q: IF they consider themselves "Anglo," why then do they refer to themselves as "brown"?)

Regarding their collective "morality" and religious "roots"; Their "religion" may technically be the Catholic sect of "Christianity," but in practice ARE THEY? Their first acts upon arriving over the US border is illegal trespassing into OUR "house" as they violate our sovereignty.

Then soon followed by squatting, theft, lies, and then thereafter, covetousness and entitlement. Taking and demanding what is NOT theirs to take. They are fundamentally SOCIALIST. These are NOT "moral" or "Christian" attributes.

No, most illegal Mexicans and South Americans share little with us, whether language, culture, education, or anything else. Why must the American taxpayer and those who've paid the price of freedom in sacrifice, sweat and blood FURTHER underwrite and subsidize the lifestyle for Illegals' families and the ridiculous "chain migration" when THEY themselves are struggling and/or deprived of government benefits?

Immigrants who go through the proper immigration channels and process? Now THEY share a sameness in values or morals with Americans.

Everything that's morally wrong in America, also wrong in every country between America and Tierra del Fuego. We're facing a difficult cultural and economic situation, but not the erasing our religious culture, at least not from Latino immigration.

That's quite a broad-sweeping indictment of the US, which frankly is so provincial that your assertion may well apply to the largely secular coastal populations of the US, but not the largely Protestant-based "Flyover Country" and the American South.

We ARE facing the erasing of our religious culture, but that is coming from within, from Americans themselves, native citizens, abandoning the Faith.

On this we agree.

The Mexican immigrants, illegals included, are as a whole more likely to be practicing Christians than the general native born population. THAT really is a problem, but we have to lay that problem at the feet of Western philosophy, not immigration.

Yes, Western secular-humanist philosophy is a serious problem that is poisoning our culture. This philosophy has even affected the same "moral Christian" Mexicans/South Americans who at one time did not violate our border simply because they knew it was wrong.

Because one attends church, does it necessarily mean they are "practicing Christianity"? Many Mexicans -- like Americans -- sadly attend church purely out of habit or tradition. Conversely, many who do not attend church ARE Christian or moral.

Western European have largely abandoned Christianity, and this is once again due to Western philosophy. They haven't replaced it with Islam, they've replaced it with practical atheism, or "agnostic apathism" (my word): "I don't know, and I don't care".

Spot on. "Agnostic Apathism" -- excellent and apropos term for most Euros.

If the birth rate were still good, that wouldn't matter, but European birth rates are in the sewer, far below replacement. Which means that the population is hollowing out - and being replaced by Muslim immigrants from North Africa in particular. Also from Turkey and the Levant.

That DOES mean that Judaeo-Christian beliefs and moral systems ARE imperiled by the immigration - the natives have lost theirs, and the rising numbers of Muslims are pushing forward theirs instead.

I don't quite understand the importance of necessarily increasing populations. Especially during an age of technology and robotics that replace manual labor.

To what end does it improve the standard of living or maintain the peace if a nation is balkanized by those who are tribal and won't assimilate to their adopted country? Unchecked immigration -- especially from nations who have little in common with their host (like hordes of Muslims in Europe or Mexican/SAs in the US) become an inevitable Time-Bomb. Yes, the bottom line is both the US and Europe ARE "imperiled." Irrevocably. Inevitably.

So, that was what my comment was aimed at:

Latino immigration isn't unhinging our Judaeo-Christian culture - if anything, it's prolonging its life. The whiter and more European the population, the more it has followed Europe into atheism, or at best "apathism".

I respect your opinion. However I think you're off base (Surprise surprise!)

Due to a Christianity that still wields influence within society and culture (more at the provincial and enclave level obviously), America can stave off this oncoming runaway "Apathism" freight train that threatens to derail OUR version of the best of Western Civ -- at least for a bit longer than Europe.

MY Bottom Line:

Yes, the most "white" of Europe also seems to be the more "Agnosticly Apathist," rejecting their Christian roots, instead worshiping Nothingness or Gaia, creating a spiritual vacuum which their newly acquired Muzzie hordes will fill.

Meanwhile, "Latino immigration," aka ILLEGALS from the Mexican border -- are a Globalists' tool, their mechanism that helps them as well as America's Socialists to KILL American sovereignty, security, identity as "Americans", our traditions and heritage -- and with it, Constitutional Law and future elections.

The Illegal hordes have been a fatal parasite of countless millions that Democrats have already illegally used as an electoral Poison Pill.

Illegals' alleged "Christianity" is so diluted and flabby that it is a non-factor in helping bolster ANY energy and strength into the fabric of America. It is an illusion. Instead, they have helped DIVIDE America, lowered our standard of living FOR MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS, and in the process helped Democrats promote Communism/Socialism.

Liberator  posted on  2018-02-01   14:35:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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