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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: Amazing Fossils Found in Flood Deposits
Source: Creation Evolution Headlines
URL Source: https://crev.info/2017/12/amazing-fossils-found-flood-deposits/
Published: Dec 4, 2017
Author: David F. Coppedge
Post Date: 2017-12-04 14:21:23 by Liberator
Keywords: Proof, YoungEarth, Creation
Views: 4516
Comments: 59

Flood geology explains these unique fossils like slow-and-gradual geology cannot.

Hundreds of Flood-Deposited Pterosaur Eggs Found

It’s all over the news: several hundred well-preserved pterosaur eggs have been uncovered in China, buried by ‘storms’ (floods).

Details and photos can be found here:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/11/largest-pterosaurs-eggs-discovered-embryos-fossils-paleontology-science/

Hundreds of Pterosaur Eggs Found in Record-Breaking Fossil Haul (National Geographic).

“The eggs fossilized in lake sediments disturbed by fast-moving water, a sign that storms may have flooded a nesting site and sent the eggs bobbing into a large lake, where soupy mud entombed them.” Huge haul of rare pterosaur eggs excites palaeontologists (Nature News). “…they were probably washed together by a storm event…”

FURTHER SOURCES OF THIS DISCOVERY WHICH PROVES YOUNG EARTH CREATION., as well as DISPROVING long-accepted, unproven tradional "scientific" Dating Methodologies.

Fossilized Pterosaur Eggs Hold Perfectly Preserved Embryos Inside (Live Science).

Hundreds of fossilized eggs shed light on pterosaur development (Science Daily).

Fossilised eggs shed light on reign of pterosaurs (BBC News).

“Geological evidence suggests large numbers of the flying reptiles died in a storm in the Early Cretaceous period, about 120 million years ago.”

Hundreds of pterosaur eggs help reveal the early life of flying reptiles (The Conversation).

The lead photo shows the bone bed. Elizabeth Martin-Silverstone writes, “Researchers think this means it was a nesting site that was hit by high-energy storms that transported the pterosaurs and their eggs to a calm lake where they were then turned into fossils.”

The original paper in Science Magazine is titled, “Egg accumulation with 3D embryos provides insight into the life history of a pterosaur.” D. Charles Deeming provided an accompanying article, “How pterosaurs bred,” also in Science Magazine. The researchers are understandably interested in what this rare cache reveals about pterosaur development, but no less interesting is the taphonomy—how they were buried. They were not buried in situ, but were transported by flood waters in storms, probably bobbing in the water till covered quickly by sediments. The paper authors describe the geological setting,

This sedimentological data, associated with the exceptional quantity of eggs and bones, indicate that events of high energy such as storms have passed over a nesting site, causing the eggs to be moved inside the lake where they floated for a short period of time, becoming concentrated and eventually buried along with disarticulated skeletons. Our findings further demonstrate the exceptional conditions necessary for the preservation of such fragile material and can explain the notable paucity of pterosaur eggs and embryos in the paleontological record compared to other reptiles, because the preservation potential of soft-shelled specimens is regarded as very poor.

Multiple floods? National Geographic speculates, “The eggs didn’t wash in all at once: They’re spread out among four distinct sediment layers, suggesting that multiple floods deposited them over time.” Flood geologists know, however, that multiple layers can form in a single event. Additionally, it would seem strange for a flood-damaged area to be used again and again by the creatures (remember the changing story of the Yellowstone fossil forests?).

Convergence again. In a sideshow to the discovery, some evolutionists are asserting that these pterosaurs were “even more like birds” than thought. That doesn’t help the Darwinian tale, however, because evolutionists do not believe birds evolved from pterosaurs. They would have to chalk similarities up to ‘convergent evolution.’ The original paper does, indeed, attribute the nesting similarities to “ecological convergence.” But an even less probable case of convergence arises from considering that both birds and pterosaurs independently “evolved” powered flight. Nature says, “The early life of pterosaurs — the first vertebrates to evolve powered flight — has been a mystery.” Flying insects, of course, “evolved” powered flight earlier—also independently. Adding flying mammals (bats) and birds, that makes four groups of animals that had to independently “converge” on this irreducibly complex capability.

No transitional forms exist to illustrate the emergence of pterosaurs from any other group of extinct reptiles.

Upside-Down Ankylosaur Analyzed

The armored dinosaur Borealopelta made the news again (see 8/31/17). This ankylosaur-type dinosaur, found in Alberta, sported larger armor plates than needed for defense, National Geographic speculates. They think the armor must have been used for sexual display instead. Not stated this time is the fact that most armored dinosaurs are found upside-down in the fossil record, indicating that they drowned in water (see our 8/31/17 report). The article does say, “About 110 million years ago, this plant-eating dinosaur died and wound up at the bottom of an ancient ocean.”

Only anti-creationist prejudice prevents scientists from seeing flood burials occurring in a single event. Whatever is found, it must be force-fitted into the evolutionary worldview. That’s not science; that’s ideology driving belief.


Poster Comment:

Yes, AS advertised by Scripture, the Earth was created by Almighty God thousands of years ago, NOT "Billions."

Many intellectually honest people -- including scientists -- must now wrap their head around several notions which support a Young Earth.

The Great Flood changed the planet, climate, geography, and life dramatically; One of the biggest Mind-Blowers: YES, dinosaurs roamed the earth WITH MAN before the Great Flood! Scripture assures and reinforces what world geography, geology, paleontology, and REAL science must accept.

The usual and current Dating Methodologies did NOT apply as before the Flood.

The entire planet was rocked by Catastrophism events as the Flood covered the entire earth, the crust of the earth opened and flooded the surface of the planet, volcanoes erupted, entire land masses were folded, pushed up, and percolated to form mountains, new continents and seas.

Many folks attribute the Great Flood solely to non-stop rain. This is not the case as per Genesis:

According to Genesis 7:11:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

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#14. To: Hank Rearden (#7)

Blind. You're stupid.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-06   6:36:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone, Liberator, paraclete (#14)
(Edited)

Blind. You're stupid.

You snake-fondlers can feel free to believe whatever you wish, just like the Mooslum deathcult, because there's absolutely no way any human could have cooked up, doctored or even completely rewritten your infallible books in only a couple thousand years of utterly meticulous, curated and witnessed recordkeeping.

Probably not a single word was fabricated to manipulate and take advantage of illiterate rubes along the way because forgery wasn't invented until the 20th Century.

But doesn't it seem even a bit odd that no appearances of any religion's god in the presence of man has occurred since there have been ways to record the event so that everyone can share in the magic? It's all just oral stories by infallible, perfect witnesses.

Yeah, Yeah. Faith. It's a test. Ok.

Hank Rearden  posted on  2017-12-08   13:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Hank Rearden (#15)

Yeah, Yeah. Faith. It's a test. Ok.

it's not often you are right but this time you are

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-09   16:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: paraclete (#16)

I have faith the Moon is made of cheese. It's faith, you can't disagree or argue.

It's cheese.

Hank Rearden  posted on  2017-12-10   10:32:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Hank Rearden (#15)

You snake-fondlers can feel free to believe whatever you wish

Are you afraid of garter snakes?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-10   17:29:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Hank Rearden (#15)

because there's absolutely no way any human could have cooked up, doctored or even completely rewritten your infallible books in only a couple thousand years of utterly meticulous, curated and witnessed recordkeeping.

You have some valid thoughts and questions. You should give some examples of things you think are rewritten or incorrect.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-10   17:31:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Hank Rearden (#15)

But doesn't it seem even a bit odd that no appearances of any religion's god in the presence of man has occurred since there have been ways to record the event so that everyone can share in the magic?

No it doesn't seem odd at all. God works on his timetable and not yours or mine.

I do find it interesting in Revelation chapter where it talks about the mark of the beast. It talks about all men on earth having to take a mark in order to buy or sell. Think how impossible that sounded when written. Well now it is possible. I know that is a bit off subject I just wanted to give you something to think about.

Also on your magic comment. I assume you believe in evolution. Doesn't water and mud turning into people by random chance sound like magic? What did one piece of grass evolve from the mud then it grew and had some seed then it spread across the earth? Its fine to question things you don't know about. But it isn't fair to criticize without explaining what your position is.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-10   17:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Hank Rearden (#17)

I have faith the Moon is made of cheese

you can believe in moldy cheese if you want to, some believe man walked on the Moon, and didn't find cheese, it's faith

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-11   16:27:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: paraclete (#21)

some believe man walked on the Moon, and didn't find cheese, it's faith

No, it's not. The retroreflectors left there, and images of the landing spots taken by orbiters, prove the insanity of those who challenge science and engineering.

Hank Rearden  posted on  2017-12-12   20:02:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Hank Rearden (#22)

No, it's not. The retroreflectors left there, and images of the landing spots taken by orbiters, prove the insanity of those who challenge science and engineering.

I'm having a hard time reconciling science and engineering with faith, Ok, the Moon might be a bad example, something went there, but you have to have a huge measure of faith to believe the science of AGW, or the science behind we are going to colonise Mars, or any other place for that matter, including the Moon.

Trump is looney to suggest it can be done, particularly on the budget he has available, it is like trying to build the "wall" without more funds. Maybe there is a secret space exploration slush fund, something off the books

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-13   0:40:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Liberator (#0)

Whatever is found, it must be force-fitted into the evolutionary worldview. That’s not science; that’s ideology driving belief.

Any "force fitting" of evidence into a predetermined view is wrong, but it's just as wrong regardless of whether the "force fitting" is to conform to a creationist view as an evolutionary view.

And it does seem to me that if one takes the Biblical story of creation and accepts it as fact, and then proceeds to place all geological & biological evidence into that creationist model/perspective, one is, in fact, engaged in "force fitting".

A true scientist will let the evidence speak for itself.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   2:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Liberator (#5)

I agree the two photos both represent strata well, and will accept that the second photos dates are accurate.

However, there is still a massive difference in scale between the two photos.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   2:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: paraclete (#11)

why do you bother trying to educate the deniers, they would rather believe the man made tale that men evolved from apes than believe what the creator told us. They don't believe in a creator, they believe it all happened by chance, some eternal role of the dice, and it takes more faith to believe that because they are believing in man, the self appointed god of this world

I concur there is a creator, but I have no problem with evolutionary biology being the mechanism of creation.

You say the "creator told us" how we were created, which I assume refers to the Bible. But at the same time, is not belief in the Bible a matter of faith, and not of proof?

Is it fair to demand proof from those who believe in evolution while not requiring proof the Bible is the "Word of God"? Or do you have proof that the Bible is the "Word of God"?

You say that global warming and biological/evolutionary sciences are bogus deceptions from some group of people -- a lot of people -- that had a hand in broadcasting it. But what is the basis for saying they are wrong/liars and those through whom the Bible was written were not?

I hope you don't mind the challenge. I issue it with sincerity.

As for what I believe, I have no problem believing in a creator. I have no problem believing that evolution was probably the manner of how we came to be, and that the earth & universe are as incomprehensibly old as the universe appears to incomprehensibly large. I believe we ARE (not "have") immortal souls, and that what we HAVE are human bodies, and that that is the reason we are spiritually special. Human DNA is nothing any more special than any animal DNA, because our human nature is not why we are special and loved by God.

I consider it completely illogical to suggest that the biochemical event of conception of human DNA gives rise to an immortal soul, while conception of chimpanzee DNA does not.

It is because we are souls that we are special and loved and souls are born of God.

Our human bodies are simply what our souls "rent" for our time on earth, and that they are ultimately expendable (from a spiritual perspective) and of course will be expended.

In this context, evolution has no conflict with our spiritual, immortal soul.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   2:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A K A Stone (#20)

Also on your magic comment. I assume you believe in evolution. Doesn't water and mud turning into people by random chance sound like magic? What did one piece of grass evolve from the mud then it grew and had some seed then it spread across the earth?

I'd say it sounds like magic regardless of whether it was random chance or divine, intelligent intervention.

As far as I consider it, the first spark of life may well have been divinely conducted, after which evolution may have been the mechanism of life progression. For all we/I know, more intervention may have been conducted every few million years since the first spark of life occurred.

OR... perhaps the laws of the universe were composed to allow for that first spark of life to occur spontaneously and to evolve from there.

I don't know, but it is pretty safe to say it was one or the other, given that we are having this conversation. And whichever it was is not important to me because it has zero impact on my knowledge/faith that we are immortal souls.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   2:33:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Pinguinite (#24) (Edited)

Any "force fitting" of evidence into a predetermined view is wrong.

A true scientist will let the evidence speak for itself.

Damn, those words of wisdom are good….really good, Pin.
No, hold on….those words of wisdom are great, really great.
It would be even greater if everyone adhered to the intent in those statements.
I wish only that LF idiots could understand the value in your statements.
No sarcasm here and no pun intended.
Only a compliment, a truly heartfelt compliment.
Come up with another “truthism” and then some more of the same importance.
Then….maybe I could start liking you.
Get LF idiots to understand the value in what you are saying and follow it.
Then I could really start liking you….no maybe about it.

Gatlin  posted on  2017-12-13   3:19:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Pinguinite (#27)

And whichever it was is not important to me because it has zero impact on my knowledge/faith that we are immortal souls.

It should be important to you. For if I am correct it means you and everyone is accountable to God.

You used to believe that you say. When you said you were a Christian in the past.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   7:00:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Pinguinite (#26)

but I have no problem with evolutionary biology being the mechanism of creation.

Even though it didn't happen and cannot be demonstrated. Come on linguine your smarter than that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   7:01:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Pinguinite, Gatlin (#26) (Edited)

evolution has no conflict with our spiritual, immortal soul.

I take issue with that statement, I know without a doubt God exists and therefore his Word is not to be doubted. God did not tell us the apes are our brothers, his Word said he created each according to their kind, that he created man and that he knits us together in our mother's womb. For heaven's sake can it be an accident that basically, with few exceptions, there is one method of reproduction

If you choose to believe in a mechanism other than described by Him, you call him a liar, a place you really don't want to be in. There can be no half faith, no each way bet, or a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Ok, he didn't choose to give us all the details in some massive tome no one would read because there were more important things we should know.

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-13   7:01:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: paraclete (#31)

Despite some of my differences of opinion with you. You are always spot on on this topic.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   7:10:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: A K A Stone (#32)

THANKS

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-13   7:18:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A K A Stone (#29)

It should be important to you. For if I am correct it means you and everyone is accountable to God.

If I am correct, we are also accountable, fully.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   8:03:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Even though it didn't happen and cannot be demonstrated. Come on linguine your smarter than that.

Evolution may or may not be demonstrated, but Creationism cannot be demonstrated at all, can it?

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   8:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Pinguinite (#34)

If I am correct, we are also accountable, fully.

In your case accountable without an instruction book. So no one would know what it takes.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   8:07:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Pinguinite (#35)

Evolution may or may not be demonstrated, but Creationism cannot be demonstrated at all, can it?

Evolution is supposedly a natural thing. So it should be easily demonstratible.

On the other hand creation requires an act of God. So we could never expect to demonstrate it. So instead we have to take the word and see if it lines up with what we know and witness. Reproduce after like kind etc work.

We never ever see creatures or plants morph into something new. Evolution is like a joke played on stupid people who cannot reason.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   8:11:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Pinguinite (#35)

Evolution may or may not be demonstrated, but

Not maybe or maybe not. For surely not unless you have some new revelation.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   8:12:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: paraclete (#31)

I know without a doubt God exists and therefore his Word is not to be doubted.

That's quite a leap. I don't see how the latter is a logical conclusion of the former. Muslims would probably say the same about the Koran, and Jews the Old Testament, while rejecting the New. Ditto for numerous other minor faiths.

God exists, therefore, the __________ must be the "Word of God"????

Maybe God exists, and yet the Bible is NOT anything other than a collection of ancient writings that are merely revered & perceived to be the "Word of God"? Maybe some of those writings are divinely inspired, but not all. What is the basis for believing that God ... well... wrote the Bible?

If you don't believe the conclusions of the so-called science community of today, why do you believe what a different community of men wrote down from yesterday?

If you choose to believe in a mechanism other than described by Him, you call him a liar, a place you really don't want to be in.

If one receives a message claiming to be from someone special, but is unsure or even does not believe it is from that person then that is not calling the alleged writer a liar, and accusing someone of doing so is disingenuous.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   8:26:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: A K A Stone (#36)

In your case accountable without an instruction book. So no one would know what it takes.

Christianity claims one should have a "personal relationship" with God. You have many personal relationships with others, but how many instruction books do you have for those relationships?

If you truly know someone, why do you need an instruction book to know what that person is like and how you should relate to them? Why wouldn't you simply "know" those things as you know them with others in your life?

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   8:33:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Pinguinite (#39)

you don't believe the conclusions of the so-called science community of today, why do you believe what a different community of men wrote down from yesterday

Because the ancient people were there and wrote it down.

So called science in many instances isn't.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   8:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Pinguinite (#35)

Evolution may or may not be demonstrated, but Creationism cannot be demonstrated at all, can it?

I'll soon be taking you up on your challenge. With civility and respect...

Liberator  posted on  2017-12-13   8:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Pinguinite (#24)

Any "force fitting" of evidence into a predetermined view is wrong, but it's just as wrong regardless of whether the "force fitting" is to conform to a creationist view as an evolutionary view.

And it does seem to me that if one takes the Biblical story of creation and accepts it as fact, and then proceeds to place all geological & biological evidence into that creationist model/perspective, one is, in fact, engaged in "force fitting".

A true scientist will let the evidence speak for itself.

I'll also address your perspectives regarding this issue...

Liberator  posted on  2017-12-13   8:50:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: A K A Stone (#38)

Not maybe or maybe not. For surely not unless you have some new revelation.

If someone did come up with proof of evolution, assuming nothing thus far meets that definition, I regret to say it's doubtful it would be accepted by creationists as "proof".

One example is being chickens having DNA for teeth.

If life were demonstrated to exist on one of Jupiter's moons or on a planet of some nearby star, would that undermine your faith?

Your faith requires evolution be false. My faith doesn't care about the method of creation. Arguably, therefore, my faith has more virtue than yours. (Yes or no?)

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   8:58:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Pinguinite (#44)

Your faith requires evolution be false. My faith doesn't care about the method of creation. Arguably, therefore, my faith has more virtue than yours. (Yes or no?)

That would be a big giant NO!

Frankly pinguine your faith is based off a YouTube video of some hypnotist.

How many people practice it 10 or 100 people worldwide? Maybe he is bigger than I realize (The hypnotist).

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-12-13   9:05:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: A K A Stone (#41)

Because the ancient people were there and wrote it down.

Yet there are many ancient writings. The Egyptians wrote down a lot of things too, including about a polytheistic mythology. Buddism and Hinduism doubtless have their ancient writings as well.

The ancient Greeks had some things to say as well.

Really, we can banter about all day long about proof and such, whether it be about evolution or the Bible being the divinely inspired "Word of God", but I think critical analysis of any model describing God and how the spirit world works is in order, including the question of whether God exists or whether there is any spirit world at all.

I work on the assumption (we all work on assumptions, right) that honesty is a virtue, and that it cannot be in any way a crime or sin to honestly question what we are told is true. Blindly accepting any claim as true to me is a shortfall, and frankly is advocated by those subscribing to literal acceptance of the Bible.

My critical analysis concludes that no supreme God would ever suggest to us that we must arrive at certain academic conclusions about life in order to avoid eternal damnation of the soul. That on it's face makes no sense whatsoever. If normal parents would not condemn their kids to death for failing a math test, how much less likely would God condemn one of his own for failing a theology final?

It makes no sense that, having a choice of what spiritual laws to compose, An all wise and all loving God would choose those that would result in the vast majority of his children suffering immeasurably for all eternity. Would one suggest that that is the best he could come up with?

I've described before the illogic of the notion that an infinitely loving and infinitely patient and most importantly infinitely wise God would or could somehow become angry, as the Bible claims. Anger is clearly a result of an insecure mindset about one's expectations. Is God therefore insecure? Doesn't he not know everything we will ever do since before we were born?

Can he really become jealous, which is another form of insecurity?

I find conclusions that he is subject to these shortcomings wholly illogical.

Under the model I currently subscribe to, God is not condemning in the least, never gets angry or jealous, and is infinitely patient even extending beyond a lifetime. At the same time, there is still full accountability for how we choose to live and relate to others. All in all, it's a much better model in which God is as all loving, wise and patient as Christianity itself claims he is.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   9:29:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: A K A Stone (#45)

That would be a big giant NO!

Frankly pinguine your faith is based off a YouTube video of some hypnotist.

It's based on critical analysis of evidence, and also logic, to the extent I am capable of exercising it. It includes youtubes of past life recall, information presented by Michael Newton in his books, but also of others who independently corroborate Newton's work to an extremely high degree.

How many people practice it 10 or 100 people worldwide? Maybe he is bigger than I realize (The hypnotist).

Reincarnation has been an element believed in for thousands of years, predating even Christianity itself. It's held as doctrine both by Hindus and Buddists both of which have very significant world wide following, as I'm sure you would agree. There are no shortage of youtubes of people allegedly recalling past lives while under hypnosis, and these accounts come from a variety of sources. I would be surprised if the percentage of people who subscribe to reincarnation was not well into the double digits.

If one is to indeed consider all evidence, it requires one to consider the possibility that reincarnation is real, and not simply dismiss it out of hand because it contradicts one's own willful belief that the Bible is the "Word of God" or because one's off hand reaction is that it's simply "absurd", both of which Bible believing Christians are apt to do. I for one consider it absurd to suggest that the biochemical event known as "conception" causes an immortal soul to spring into existence (provided the DNA involved is "human") which is an implicit assumption made by Christianity, Judaism and Islam as well.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   9:58:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Hank Rearden, A K A Stone paraclete (#15)

You snake-fondlers can feel free to believe whatever you wish, just like the Mooslum deathcult...

ARE we REALLY "free to believe" whatever we wish? If so, that's EXACTLY the intent of most of the original Founders and citizenry of the USA believed. AS MOSTLY BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIANS. That's no coincidence.

If the militant atheists and Leftists have their way, it wouldn't be the case. And you know this is true.

I don't know where you've forged such nonsense, but 99.9% of all Christians don't engage in "snake fondling." To embrace this caracature of "Christians" you must be either extremely easy to manipulate. Or utterly naive.

"There's absolutely no way any human could have cooked up, doctored or even completely rewritten your infallible books in only a couple thousand years of utterly meticulous, curated and witnessed recordkeeping."

But YES -- but the Word and books are indeed INTACT and HAVE indeed been preserved. It is amazing, but true. Preserved in THREE languages. That alone speaks to a Higher Power. And one might say, "miraculous" itself.

How do you explain all the prophecies that had been written thousands of years ago that have come true? How can ANY one or several men manipulate that? Or true history of actual people, places, events AND date that the Bible documents, BACKED BY archaeological FACTS?

Probably not a single word was fabricated to manipulate and take advantage of illiterate rubes along the way because forgery wasn't invented until the 20th Century.

Wow. That's stunning. And talk about "conspiracies."

Q: Just WHO have been the beneficiaries of such a ruse and scheme that has lasted 4,000 years? And just how are its conspirators profiting NOW? Exactly what was to be gained by such an impossible alleged conspiracy of The Mother of All Deceptions?

Let's be clear about definitions:

True Christianity is a belief and fellowship of LIFE based on wisdom, truth, peace (if possible), and path to Eternal Life beyond the Material existence. It fundamentally touts virtue, love (even of Unbelievers), and brotherhood. To be a true Christian is a matter of FREE Choice. Without coercion. Of one's own volition and self-discovery. It instructs and informs one of the "Good News" -- the Gospel.

Islam is a Death Cult. It is definitively coercive, and definitively a cult -- it is fundamentally based on the hatred of Unbelievers, on contradictory, chaotic morals. IT'S version of "Good News" promises rewards to its adherents of mass murder with "Paradise."

Doesn't it seem even a bit odd that no appearances of any religion's god in the presence of man has occurred since there have been ways to record the event so that everyone can share in the magic? It's all just oral stories by infallible, perfect witnesses.

You mean you expect some videotape of the event of Jesus Christ's first return? You mean the eyewitness testimony of THOUSANDS (as told in the Gospels) isn't good enough for you? Or that of the testimony in Old Testament? The legacy of Jesus Christ and eyewitness testimony was so powerful that despite a virtual holocaust of new Christians, others replace them and displaced the most powerful Empire in History within a few hundred years.

If you disbelieve, fine. But then WHY believe ANY "history" that's not videotaped? Or any events told of the US revolution? 500 years ago? A Thousand? Two-Thousand? Egyptian? Or ANY ancient texts?

Again -- the Bible has documented -- with total accuracy -- PEOPLE, PLACES, EVENTS, and DATES. As well as hundred of prophesies come true. That is quite a trick to behold.

And again I must ask: TO WHAT END?

The sharing and maintaining the history of mankind, the early narrative of mankind's relationship with God; belief in the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its respective preservation over millennia -- HOW are any of the current Powers-That-Be profiteering NOW??

ANSWER: The truth is, there IS no material "profit" to be made. Jesus Christ himself said, "If you desire to be perfect, go, sell what you are possessing, and give to the poor,....and come, follow Me." (Matthew 19:21)

What kind of scam or "Ponzi Scheme" would Jesus' own words propagate?

Yes, this physical-world life IS a "test" of sorts; Yes, "Faith" is required...

But how much faith do you need to "know" that the desk you're sitting at; the computer screen you're staring at; the 4 walls within; the HOUSE you live in have one thing in common: THEY ARE ALL BUILT BY SOMEONE. With purpose.

Now look in the mirror, Hank. You were "built." Intricately. With sentience. With purpose.

You can either ignore the obvious, OR seek and find. And btw, "Christianity" isn't so much an "organized religion," but a Fellowship. Same as with Jesus and his disciples.

Liberator  posted on  2017-12-13   11:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Liberator (#48)

"Christianity" isn't so much an "organized religion," but a Fellowship. Same as with Jesus and his disciples.

That point is lost on many, as is the relationship aspect with Christ.

paraclete  posted on  2017-12-13   16:08:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Liberator (#48)

Your post wasn't directed at me, but I'd still like to respond.

As I view things, Christianity is a pretty good faith. By that, I mean that the virtues Christianity teaches in terms of loving others, sacrificing for the good of others, loving your enemies, the good Samaritan and so on are spot on. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is an example of that same love, both of God loving us enough to want to make such a sacrifice, and of Jesus himself following through, again out of love.

Having said that, the Christian doctrine of sin making such a death necessary is something that does not fit into the spiritual model I recognize. Sin, at least as some type of spiritual disease that can only be cured through the shed blood of a completely innocent yet tried and tested Jesus doesn't fit that model. Though sin as an expression of imperfection does make sense.

As for the Bible standing on it's own merits based on ancient precise texts, I would simply chalk that up to the practices of the people of ancient Israel who happened to believe in the sanctity of exact wording. The ancient Greeks had all manner of mythical stories of their own, from which their polytheist religion was based, but because they apparently had no such social discipline to treat their written accounts as sacred down to the word, there is no written texts from them considered "authentic" and myths vary in detail.

We are all familiar with how children ask simple questions of parents about why things are the way they are, like "where to rabbits come from" or "why does it rain", and parents are apt to invent stories to satisfy the curiosity of their kids. In the same way, I would suggest that at the dawn of civilization, people naturally wondered about their place in the universe. They knew innately that they were special but did not know how it could be, or where everything came from. With that, the original story of creation was born, and handed down from father to son, improvements being made at times, eventually (in the case of ancient Israel) being formally written and considered divine.

I once appreciated the argument about how special the Bible must be because of how the dozens of different authors across millinia & backgrounds all agree on a theology, as it's so hard to find a similar set of people that agree. But that's not a fair argument either, really. It's one thing to tell 30 or 40 authors to write a story about God and have them all describe God's role in a uniform way, but that's not how the Bible came to be. It more closely resembles a scenario where you rent out 40 rooms in a hotel and put one author in each room. Then go to the first author and ask for a story of creation. He makes one, and you critique it and edit it for literary perfection. Then you go to the second author and give him the work tell him to write a sequel. You repeat the process, and when you're done you get to review all the works and maybe throw out a few stories that don't match up well (which is what happened with the Apocrypha). So each author had the benefit of knowing what all the prior authors wrote before him. This allows room for later authors to fulfill prophecies made by earlier ones, and of course, ensures the new work doesn't contradict the older works.

As for the Bible matching up archeological findings, that's all in a days work for a people that were meticulous record keepers, which they deserve full credit for being. But that again, does not require divine guidance.

So I don't consider the uniformity of the Bible to necessarily require divine authorship. I also don't see the differing languages making it remarkable. The Egyption Rosetta stone is famous for having 4 different languages saying the same thing on each of the 4 sides of the stone cube (which was the key to decrypting Egyptian hieroglyphics).

In summary, I do think there is a human explanation for the merits the Bible possesses, and it does possess merits. As I mentioned, I do see the fact that the Bible portraying God as subject to anger and jealousy and willing to condemn as evidence of it's human origins, as I cannot see any possibility God having those traits while still being all-wise, all powerful and all loving. The model I subscribe to does not portray God as having these negative traits. We have instead infinite patience, no condemnation, and yet full accountability. It's altogether more logical than the standard Christian model. To me, everything works better and fits better. And I have to be led by what I honestly see, and not be persuaded by fear, which unfortunately seems to be a persuading element of at least some versions of Christianity.

Thanks for reading.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-13   23:34:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Pinguinite (#50)

Ping, I promise to respond in kind to your thoughtful, high contemplative post(s). It's nice for a change to engage in sincere intellectual conversation and challenge without all the noise.

Venting or responding to trolls and trolling may be at times entertaining, but ultimately not as constructive as sharing informative provocative ideas and opinions.

You've cited several meaningful observations while also posing many good and sincere points and questions that do require meaningful answers, and not just some "drive-by" responses.

Thank you for your consideration, patience and willingness to respond AND listen...

I seem also to recall you'd in the past shared your own belief system, which I regretfully failed to respond to. I'll locate and re-read your posts for needed reference. There's a lotta meat I need to catch up on.

Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2017-12-14   12:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Liberator (#51)

Ping, I promise to respond in kind to your thoughtful, high contemplative post(s). It's nice for a change to engage in sincere intellectual conversation and challenge without all the noise.

For two people serious about a subject such as this one, there is no need for inflamatory, personal attacks. I look forward to a challenging discussion. Honestly, I've never found anyone willing to take it seriously, or at least take seriously my views on it. Truthfully, I feel like I have been able to easily dismiss the few non-serious challenges I have received.

Thank you for your consideration, patience and willingness to respond AND listen...

Being open minded is a virtue, especially when it comes to spiritual matters, and that requires listening.

Digging up old posts can be challenging. If you need a refresher, I am happy to repost.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-12-17   13:37:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Pinguinite, redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#52) (Edited)

Digging up old posts can be challenging. If you need a refresher, I am happy to repost.

Thanks....But I've pulled up two past others.

We've got this one as well.

These are meaningful subject matters that others may also appreciate.

Liberator  posted on  2017-12-18   11:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Hank Rearden (#15)

But doesn't it seem even a bit odd that no appearances of any religion's god in the presence of man has occurred since there have been ways to record the event so that everyone can share in the magic?

When I was 10, I dove into a lake headfirst, broke my neck, was paralyzed and drowning. And God reached down and restored me.

When I was 38, God grabbed my face and spoke to me for the first time in Appleton, Wisconsin. He did it several more times after that.

When I was in my late 40's, God raised two animals from the dead in my presence.

It is not my experience that God doesn't appear in the presence of man. I'm a man. I listen to people who have claimed to see or talk to God, and I can tell some very have - I can also tell sometimes when somebody is lying about that. God is a certain way, in my experience, and I recognize when others are speaking of what I have seen and known.

God has not yet spoken with you. Sooner or later he will. If he does it on this side of the grave, you will find the difficulty in communication that we're having right now, made that much more difficult by the reactions you'll get, such as the one you're about to give me.

If I had one piece of advice to give you, I'd say to not mock me and people like me. We've done nothing to you other than tell you something we know.

As to evolution versus creationism, I have talked to God, and I don't know the answer. The only thing I know for sure is that God acts on nature through nature, because the way nature IS, IS his nature. Natural Law is God's opinion about things. People are fixed in their opinions, and only great force can compel them to change them, or to not act in accordance with them. Nothing can exert force on God, so nothing other than himself impinges on him to change his opinion on anything.

I would say that some of the things that Creationists say is exaggerated and doesn't reflect what is actually written in the Hebrew. And I would say that some of the things that Darwinians say is so fixedly atheistic that the truth is run out upon. The existence and evolution of mind is a far more interesting and implausible thing than the existence of a self-reproducing chemical.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-12-21   11:20:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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