Title: Catalonia Just Declared Independence From Spain, Senate Authorized Constitutional Measures | TIME Source:
TIME URL Source:[None] Published:Oct 27, 2017 Author:staff Post Date:2017-10-27 15:39:02 by buckeroo Keywords:None Views:1519 Comments:37
Yup. Yet, a HUGE number of voters agree with multiculturalism.
As they should. In a place like America, there is no dominant ethnic culture. What we have in common is a political culture, and that has to be enough. Certainly the LACK of a dominant ethnic culture has served America better than ethnic nationalism has served Europe. In the end, the intelligent minorities were driven OUT of all of the European countries, they came here where no ethnic culture dominates, and they all contributed to make a nation much stronger, wealthier, more advanced and better to live in, for them anyway, than ANY of the European (or Asian, or African) countries they left behind.
I'm afraid this won't end well for that Catalonians. Too bad really. But no country wants to see some of its most valuable real estate go waltzing off. We'd be the same way about NYC or CA or FL or TX deciding they wanted independence.
I just don't see the Catalonians as willing to raise of force of 5,000 or more fighters who are willing to fire from the rooftops on other Spaniards or use IEDs against Spanish troops or bomb federal centers located in Catalonia.
That's what it would take. And I don't think they're willing to do it. They just don't have what it takes, the way the Irish did when they stood up to Britain.
They just don't have what it takes, the way the Irish did when they stood up to Britain.
The Irish may have stood up to Britain using violence, but they didn't win. Ulster did not gain its independence. It is still part of the UK.
So, the Irish killed people, mostly Irish, and didn't accomplish anything in the end.
If you REALLY want to bring down a government, fast, all you have to do is STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES. If they all refuse to pay their taxes, and merchants refuse to collect the taxes, the Spanish government will be in full economic meltdown in 6 months. Remember: Spain cannot print money anymore - it is part of the Euro-zone.
Everybody in Catalonia who voted for independence or who favors it, should declare a tax strike. And now that the central government has nationalized local government, declare the strike at all levels of government. Refuse to pay any taxes, or to collect them. Spain lacks the resources to be able to prosecute, or do anything to, several million people, and the damage done by the loss of funds flow would be a dagger to the heart of the regime.
They cannot resort to executions or anything like that, and Catalonians can practice self- reliance to keep going for quite awhile if they choose.
If the movement spreads to the Basque country, Spain's headaches proliferate.
If the local police are independentista, there is no effective way to immediately support the tax laws.
Of course, for this to succeed, the Catalonians have to really want independence, because their magnificent standard of living will take a very serious hit in the grinding conflict with Spain, even if there is no violence whatever. Nobody gets to be free without a fight.
My own view? You've known me long enough. I'll bet you can you guess my view about Catalonian independence.
So, the Irish killed people, mostly Irish, and didn't accomplish anything in the end.
I think the Irish would disagree with you. But I was only using their violent resistance as an example of the kind of militant resistance that would be required to face down a central government that is a NATO power. The average Spanish civilian isn't armed the way people are here in the States.
If you REALLY want to bring down a government, fast, all you have to do is STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES. If they all refuse to pay their taxes, and merchants refuse to collect the taxes, the Spanish government will be in full economic meltdown in 6 months. Remember: Spain cannot print money anymore - it is part of the Euro-zone.
This could be workable. You could do more as a barter economy, restrict outflow of Euros, rely on getting some tourism dollars, etc. But your banks would still need to be plugged into the EU's banking network unless you made some major changes. What happens if Spain stops paying Catalonian retirees?
What happens if Spain stops paying Catalonian retirees?
Essentially, unless there is a cold war on and a major military power hostile to your native country's government exists, secessionist movements are doomed - and therefore pointless.
It is better to be a part of a large, diverse society than to be a small, culturally homogenous (and therefore) backward, dull, society.
Catalonia doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of achieving independence unless the Spanish just let them go.
If the Spanish do that, Catalonia will cease to be the most prosperous part of Spain, and will soon enough become the LEAST prosperous part of Iberia.
Why? Just what you mentioned: the retirees - paid by Spain. Also the roads, hospitals, bases, power grids, health care - everything paid by Spain. Rich areas think they contribute more because of the simple dollar flow count, but they also BENEFIT more, by all of that infrastructure, and by all of the externalities that are externalized onto a far-away federal government.
Spain does not have a huge military. The Catalonian taxes are not going to pay for a world empire. They are paying for infrastructure and social welfare state.
If Catalonia takes that on for themselves, there will be a lot of very unhappy Catalonians in a few years. Also, a bare majority may manage to gain statehood...promptly plunging the totality into worse economic conditions. And the defeated still get to have parties and vote. So, the narrow majority of independentistas get independence, impoverish everybody, and the loyalists win the next election. What is gained?
I think the secessionist and nationalist movements are shortsighted and profoundly stupid, as a general matter. There is greater strength and a better future in a large, diverse empire then there is in "Sinn Fein" - ourselves alone.
Sinn Fein only works if your neighbors have something to gain by leaving you alone. Swiss independence has not been maintained by victory on the battlefield but for economic convenience of the great powers ranged about.
And the Swiss are not truly all that independent. They are surrounded by an economic zone to which they have had to adjust, and without the ability to play powers off against each other, in the aftermath of 9/11, when the US demanded access to the "secret" information, the Swiss pulled down their pants and let the Americans have their way with them.
Little bits of kingdoms cannot stand against their foes.
I live in the Northeast. These people are not socialists at all. They do believe in the social welfare state, but that's not at all the same thing.
Yes,it is.
Or at least partially. Being the shitheads most of them are,they believe in free stuff for THEM,but do NOT ask THEM to share what THEY have with anyone.
Or at least partially. Being the shitheads most of them are,they believe in free stuff for THEM,but do NOT ask THEM to share what THEY have with anyone.
Well, I lived through hurricane Sandy up here. People were pretty sharing. We were without power. Our neighbors, with whom we are not particularly close, were away. They called us, told us where their spare key was, and told us we could live in their house until the power (or they) came back - they have a generator.
This place came together quite admirably for that hurricane, so I'd say that, actually, yeah, these New Englanders do believe in community, and they do help each other out - a lot.
Come to think of it, we bought ourselves a snowblower for the street and we all use it. But in the winters before we had it, one of the neighbors had a snowblower, and when there was a really bad storm, he would go around and clean off many people's driveways.
When the neighbor's lost their jobs, we gave them stuff. When I lost mine when the company shut down, the neighbors lent money, no repayment schedule.
So no it's not true. These people here in Westport, Connecticut, share what they have when there's a crisis. Just exactly like Christian people are supposed to...and some of them are Chinese atheists, and some of them are Jews.
I challenge your assertion about the selfishness of people in New England. My experience, some 15 years of it now, is that they are more generous than the people were down in Maryland, or down in Florida, out in Texas, or over in California.
I remember that back in Michigan people were pretty communitarian also.
Where there are a lot of Catholic and Lutherans and Jews things seem to be better than other places where there are fewer of them.
My experience, some 15 years of it now, is that they are more generous than the people were down in Maryland, or down in Florida, out in Texas, or over in California.
Maryland is a pit of socialist/communist vipers,and neither it nor Florida are southern nations. Maryland isn't even IN the south,and Florida is so full of retired yankees people have been calling it "The southernmost yankee state in the nation" since at least the 1960's.
Can't speak for Texas,but California is a human cesspool. Cut off public aid,and half the people in the state would starve to death.
Where there are a lot of Catholic and Lutherans and Jews things seem to be better than other places where there are fewer of them.
I think of Maryland as Southern. They have the drawl. They have slave history. They have the grits. The have the aggressive police shire-reave attitudes.
Like Virginia, they're less corn pone and more rich than their hick cousins further South and inland, but they are nevertheless more Southern than Yankee, certainly. The place doesn't feel Midwestern either, because of the rural black population, which really only occurs where there was slavery. In the North, blacks are concentrated in cities, but in the South, the blacks are spread out all over the country. Maryland is South.
