Title: Catalonia Just Declared Independence From Spain, Senate Authorized Constitutional Measures | TIME Source:
TIME URL Source:[None] Published:Oct 27, 2017 Author:staff Post Date:2017-10-27 15:39:02 by buckeroo Keywords:None Views:1524 Comments:37
Yup. Yet, a HUGE number of voters agree with multiculturalism.
As they should. In a place like America, there is no dominant ethnic culture. What we have in common is a political culture, and that has to be enough. Certainly the LACK of a dominant ethnic culture has served America better than ethnic nationalism has served Europe. In the end, the intelligent minorities were driven OUT of all of the European countries, they came here where no ethnic culture dominates, and they all contributed to make a nation much stronger, wealthier, more advanced and better to live in, for them anyway, than ANY of the European (or Asian, or African) countries they left behind.
I'm afraid this won't end well for that Catalonians. Too bad really. But no country wants to see some of its most valuable real estate go waltzing off. We'd be the same way about NYC or CA or FL or TX deciding they wanted independence.
It's not so much nationalism as self determination. Why should this prosperous part of the nation pay for the foolish decision making of the nare-do-wells in Madrid who brought the nation into a financial crisis. This part of the country has great history and should be allowed to have autonomy. This should be a lesson for all federal governments who do not govern for the people
I just don't see the Catalonians as willing to raise of force of 5,000 or more fighters who are willing to fire from the rooftops on other Spaniards or use IEDs against Spanish troops or bomb federal centers located in Catalonia.
That's what it would take. And I don't think they're willing to do it. They just don't have what it takes, the way the Irish did when they stood up to Britain.
They just don't have what it takes, the way the Irish did when they stood up to Britain.
The Irish may have stood up to Britain using violence, but they didn't win. Ulster did not gain its independence. It is still part of the UK.
So, the Irish killed people, mostly Irish, and didn't accomplish anything in the end.
If you REALLY want to bring down a government, fast, all you have to do is STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES. If they all refuse to pay their taxes, and merchants refuse to collect the taxes, the Spanish government will be in full economic meltdown in 6 months. Remember: Spain cannot print money anymore - it is part of the Euro-zone.
Everybody in Catalonia who voted for independence or who favors it, should declare a tax strike. And now that the central government has nationalized local government, declare the strike at all levels of government. Refuse to pay any taxes, or to collect them. Spain lacks the resources to be able to prosecute, or do anything to, several million people, and the damage done by the loss of funds flow would be a dagger to the heart of the regime.
They cannot resort to executions or anything like that, and Catalonians can practice self- reliance to keep going for quite awhile if they choose.
If the movement spreads to the Basque country, Spain's headaches proliferate.
If the local police are independentista, there is no effective way to immediately support the tax laws.
Of course, for this to succeed, the Catalonians have to really want independence, because their magnificent standard of living will take a very serious hit in the grinding conflict with Spain, even if there is no violence whatever. Nobody gets to be free without a fight.
My own view? You've known me long enough. I'll bet you can you guess my view about Catalonian independence.
Every time I glance at this headline out of the corner of my eye,I read "CALIFORNIA declares independence...." and start to cheer.
Then I look at it directly to get details on when this happy day becomes official,and end up a little depressed.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
They just don't have what it takes, the way the Irish did when they stood up to Britain.
Yeah,but the Irish are by nature a troublesome people,and they fight each other when there are no British around. Sometimes even when there are British soldiers around.
The Catholic Church had a large roll to play in those wars,too,because they were about making and keeping Ireland Catholic more than they were about independence.
I don't see trading a queen with a crown for a queen with a pointy hat as being an improvement,but since I'm not Irish it's really none of my business.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
So, the Irish killed people, mostly Irish, and didn't accomplish anything in the end.
I think the Irish would disagree with you. But I was only using their violent resistance as an example of the kind of militant resistance that would be required to face down a central government that is a NATO power. The average Spanish civilian isn't armed the way people are here in the States.
If you REALLY want to bring down a government, fast, all you have to do is STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES. If they all refuse to pay their taxes, and merchants refuse to collect the taxes, the Spanish government will be in full economic meltdown in 6 months. Remember: Spain cannot print money anymore - it is part of the Euro-zone.
This could be workable. You could do more as a barter economy, restrict outflow of Euros, rely on getting some tourism dollars, etc. But your banks would still need to be plugged into the EU's banking network unless you made some major changes. What happens if Spain stops paying Catalonian retirees?
I don't see trading a queen with a crown for a queen with a pointy hat as being an improvement,but since I'm not Irish it's really none of my business.
What happens if Spain stops paying Catalonian retirees?
Essentially, unless there is a cold war on and a major military power hostile to your native country's government exists, secessionist movements are doomed - and therefore pointless.
It is better to be a part of a large, diverse society than to be a small, culturally homogenous (and therefore) backward, dull, society.
Catalonia doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of achieving independence unless the Spanish just let them go.
If the Spanish do that, Catalonia will cease to be the most prosperous part of Spain, and will soon enough become the LEAST prosperous part of Iberia.
Why? Just what you mentioned: the retirees - paid by Spain. Also the roads, hospitals, bases, power grids, health care - everything paid by Spain. Rich areas think they contribute more because of the simple dollar flow count, but they also BENEFIT more, by all of that infrastructure, and by all of the externalities that are externalized onto a far-away federal government.
Spain does not have a huge military. The Catalonian taxes are not going to pay for a world empire. They are paying for infrastructure and social welfare state.
If Catalonia takes that on for themselves, there will be a lot of very unhappy Catalonians in a few years. Also, a bare majority may manage to gain statehood...promptly plunging the totality into worse economic conditions. And the defeated still get to have parties and vote. So, the narrow majority of independentistas get independence, impoverish everybody, and the loyalists win the next election. What is gained?
I think the secessionist and nationalist movements are shortsighted and profoundly stupid, as a general matter. There is greater strength and a better future in a large, diverse empire then there is in "Sinn Fein" - ourselves alone.
Sinn Fein only works if your neighbors have something to gain by leaving you alone. Swiss independence has not been maintained by victory on the battlefield but for economic convenience of the great powers ranged about.
And the Swiss are not truly all that independent. They are surrounded by an economic zone to which they have had to adjust, and without the ability to play powers off against each other, in the aftermath of 9/11, when the US demanded access to the "secret" information, the Swiss pulled down their pants and let the Americans have their way with them.
Little bits of kingdoms cannot stand against their foes.
Maybe the Catalonians will just end up getting a better autonomy deal from Spain.
Crimea and its retirees certainly got a much better deal from Russia than they ever got from being part of Ukraine. And Crimea was, as Catalonia is, an internationally recognized autonomous region with its own legislature and substantial internal governance not subject to the central state.
If the Spanish do that, Catalonia will cease to be the most prosperous part of Spain, and will soon enough become the LEAST prosperous part of Iberia.
Correct me if I'm wrong,but wouldn't they still be a part of the EU?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Sinn Fein only works if your neighbors have something to gain by leaving you alone. Swiss independence has not been maintained by victory on the battlefield but for economic convenience of the great powers ranged about.
Translation: Nobody in Europe invades Switzerland because that's where ALL the politicians keep the money they stole from their own people.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
But Crimea did not declare its independence. It moved from being a dependency of Ukraine, a poor country, to being a dependency of Russia, a richer country. Catalonia has declared outright independence, which is sort of like Texas doing it. If Texas did it, Texas would be relatively impoverished in short order, and so would the rest of America. There is prosperity in economies of scale.
Correct me if I'm wrong,but wouldn't they still be a part of the EU?
No. The EU is a treaty between nation states. It's governing council, the Council of Europe, is the heads of government of the various nation states. Catalonia would be a new independent country, outside of the EU. It would have to negotiate its entry into the EU.
Because virtually every European country has an ethnic region that has had some sort of independentist stirring over the course of time, the European countries univocally oppose any sort of independence for any sort of regions. Because if it happens in Spain, then why not Wales and Scotland and Ulster and Britanny, and why not Flanders and Northern Italy, and why not the Danish tier of Sweden, and why not the Basque country, and why not the whole of Samiland?
And in time, why not more and more Muslim enclaves, as the Muslims become the majority population in various cities.
That way national dissolution lies, and only the smallest of countries in Europe are homogenous, and even then they are not all that homogenous. Wherever there is a different dialect, there is a different potential nation. Germany used to be 1000 different little countries. It was really an external invasion: Napoleon's conquest and reorganization of the German states into rational administrative units which went on to become the basic German states of the 19th Century, that set the course for Germany as a unitary state.
Europe has the choice of prosperity through the gradual dissolution of hard borders and economic integration, or hard nationalism, lots of hard borders, and a return to the poverty of old.
What they can't have is both: small, fiercely sovereign cultural nation states, and prosperity. It's one or the other. Most Europeans prefer prosperity and the liberty that comes with that over folk dances and excessive outpourings of national sentiment. The old way led to the bloody butcher's bill of the two World Wars and all of the history before it. Europe today is more prosperous and peaceful ever, precisely BECAUSE national sovereignty and cultural identity has been subsumed into a uniform economic bloc.
It IS better than what came before, but for those people for whom flag and language are more important than their personal and family prosperity and freedom of motion and wide range of opportunities, the view is the opposite.
The British chose Brexit, barely. If they really go through with it, British people will end up relatively poorer than the rest of Europeans who stay together.
Translation: Nobody in Europe invades Switzerland because that's where ALL the politicians keep the money they stole from their own people.
Historically, that's partly true. Switzerland was able to parley its wealth into independence because it could throw its money against any invader, and that would be an issue.
But today, nobody invades Switzerland for the same reason nobody invades anybody anymore. Warfare among democratic modern European states is a thing of the past. The errors of the past have been seen for what they were, and there was nothing gained by the WINNERS in past wars that was worth having another one. Even victories hollowed out the victors.
The age of Western European war is simply over. Nobody invades Switzerland for the same reason nobody invades the moon or governments don't hang witches. That's crazy stuff.
Historically, that's partly true. Switzerland was able to parley its wealth into independence because it could throw its money against any invader, and that would be an issue.
You missed my point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough,but historically nobody in Europe could afford to invade the only safe place for all of them to keep their money hidden. Not only would they lose all the money they had deposited there is the invasion was unsuccessful,but every monarch and noble in Europe would be forced to declare war to defend Switzerland in order to protect the money THEY had squirreled away there.
In other words,invading Switzerland was a lose/lose proposition.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Ever spend any time in the northeast,Mn,or the left coast?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I live in the Northeast. These people are not socialists at all. They do believe in the social welfare state, but that's not at all the same thing.
Yes,it is.
Or at least partially. Being the shitheads most of them are,they believe in free stuff for THEM,but do NOT ask THEM to share what THEY have with anyone.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Or at least partially. Being the shitheads most of them are,they believe in free stuff for THEM,but do NOT ask THEM to share what THEY have with anyone.
Well, I lived through hurricane Sandy up here. People were pretty sharing. We were without power. Our neighbors, with whom we are not particularly close, were away. They called us, told us where their spare key was, and told us we could live in their house until the power (or they) came back - they have a generator.
This place came together quite admirably for that hurricane, so I'd say that, actually, yeah, these New Englanders do believe in community, and they do help each other out - a lot.
Come to think of it, we bought ourselves a snowblower for the street and we all use it. But in the winters before we had it, one of the neighbors had a snowblower, and when there was a really bad storm, he would go around and clean off many people's driveways.
When the neighbor's lost their jobs, we gave them stuff. When I lost mine when the company shut down, the neighbors lent money, no repayment schedule.
So no it's not true. These people here in Westport, Connecticut, share what they have when there's a crisis. Just exactly like Christian people are supposed to...and some of them are Chinese atheists, and some of them are Jews.
I challenge your assertion about the selfishness of people in New England. My experience, some 15 years of it now, is that they are more generous than the people were down in Maryland, or down in Florida, out in Texas, or over in California.
I remember that back in Michigan people were pretty communitarian also.
Where there are a lot of Catholic and Lutherans and Jews things seem to be better than other places where there are fewer of them.
Which isn't really Christian. We follow Christ. You follow the poop who you call pope. You think the leader of the Catholics who looked the other way and let priests molest children is superior and can contradict Christ and be correct.
My experience, some 15 years of it now, is that they are more generous than the people were down in Maryland, or down in Florida, out in Texas, or over in California.
Maryland is a pit of socialist/communist vipers,and neither it nor Florida are southern nations. Maryland isn't even IN the south,and Florida is so full of retired yankees people have been calling it "The southernmost yankee state in the nation" since at least the 1960's.
Can't speak for Texas,but California is a human cesspool. Cut off public aid,and half the people in the state would starve to death.
Where there are a lot of Catholic and Lutherans and Jews things seem to be better than other places where there are fewer of them.
You mean like in Ct,DC, and NYC?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Nobody else does. I consider it to be a suburb of Moscow or Berkley.
Or am I repeating myself?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I think of Maryland as Southern. They have the drawl. They have slave history. They have the grits. The have the aggressive police shire-reave attitudes.
Like Virginia, they're less corn pone and more rich than their hick cousins further South and inland, but they are nevertheless more Southern than Yankee, certainly. The place doesn't feel Midwestern either, because of the rural black population, which really only occurs where there was slavery. In the North, blacks are concentrated in cities, but in the South, the blacks are spread out all over the country. Maryland is South.
