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Title: Forensic acoustic proof of SECOND shooter in the Las Vegas massacre
Source:
[None]
URL Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmEFeKy8aI
Published: Oct 11, 2017
Author: Mike Adams TheHealthRanger
Post Date: 2017-10-11 00:40:47 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 39391
Comments: 148
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 80.
#1. To: nolu chan, VXH, buckeroo, tooconservative, cz82, redleghunter (#0)
Found this interesting video.
Adams assumes a shooter using an AR-15 with .223 Remington 55 grain ammo. He states 20% humidity. He states a 925 m/s bullet velocity which is ~3034.8 fps. He specifies a 16.5" barrel, but a 3034.8 fps initial velocity would seem to indicate a 20" barrel or different ammo. I believe the white board has an error. The flight time should be 0.532s, not 0.528s. It lists both the 400 yard flight time and the lag time as 0.528s. This would mean the bullet velocity was precisely double the speed of sound, and that double 0.528s, or 1.056s would be the 400 yard travel time for the speed of sound. The time of sound travel for 400 yards at 1130 fps is 1.062. http://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/ He cites his use of a gundata ballistics chart for travel time. gundata indicates for 400 yards, the time of travel is 5.32s, specifying a standard 55gr Remington .223 bullet leaving the barrel at 3,215fps. Adams also specified a 16.5 inch barrel, but it seems an AR-15 with a 16.5 barrel does not achieve 3,215 initial velocity. Testing with different barrel lengths indicates an AR-15, 16.5" barrel, with Remington .223 ammo, does not achieve 3,034.8 muzzle ("initial") velocity. With a 20" barrel, the same setup gets 3,071 fps muzzle velocity. A 25" barrel gets it up to 3,221 fps muzzle velocity. A 16.5" with Federal M193/55 gets 3,187 fps muzzle velocity. http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/ballistic-chart/remington_charts/223rembal.htm A ballistics chart indicates that a Remington .223 will not get the stated bullet velocity. Assuming the shots were fired from room 32135, and that end of the Mandalay Bay Hotel was 1208 feet from the base of the bandstand, and that a bullet struck the pavement at or near the base of the bandstand, the long side a right triangle would be 1208 feet and the short side would be the height of room 32135. The building claims a height of 480 feet and 44 stories, for an average of 10.91 feet per story. The 32nd floor would be 338.21 feet up. (31 x 10.91, base of floor 1 has zero height). With sides of 1208 and 338.21, the hypotenuse would be 1254.45 feet. The actual distance the bullet traveled would be more than that as it would not follow a straight path, but would follow an arc. Using estimates of distance to striking the venue surface of ~1250 feet, and detected lag times of 0.559 sec and 0.374 sec, the slower bullet made the 0.374 lag time; the faster bullet arrived .559 sec before the muzzle blast. At 1130 fps, the sound would cover 1250 feet in about 1.106 seconds. A bullet making the 1250 ft trip .559 sec before the sound, made the trip in .547 sec. A bullet making the 1250 ft trip .374 sec before the sound, made the trip in .732 sec. 1250 feet in .547 sec is an avg velocity of ~2236 fps. 1250 feet in .732 sec is an avg velocity of ~1708 fps. This assumes both shots were taken from the same location. What bullets were used can be ascertained by collecting the bullets. What was left in the room should be inventoried, along with what guns were in the room. http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?267715-308-Ammo-Help/page2 Most mfgs recommend a minimum velocity of 1800 fps for proper expansion. The so called "magic number" associate with elk hunting is 1200 lb ft Energy. Below that is risky and I prefer 1400 lb ft as my personal standard. Although every gun is different the ammo mfg. Will put their tested numbers out for their loads. According to Federal their TBT 165 gr out of a 308 maintains 1939 fps and 1377 lb ft at 500 yards. Mathematically that should do the job as long as the bullet hits it's mark. Federal lists the same weight game King at 1708 FPS and 1069 ft lb at 500 yards. Obviously not the best option. If you keep 400 yards and in either a 150 or 165 gr factory loaded bonded round should work fine on elk. You just need to find the one that goes exactly where you want it to every time you press the trigger. This would suggest the possibility of the 1708 fps round being a .308 (or whatever else gets around 1708 fps at 400 - 450 yards. http://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/ [...] .223 Remington, Remington Metal Case, 55gr. 400 yards This ballistics chart indicates .532 seconds for 400 yards, at 1588 velocity. .532 seconds would indicate 2255.6 average velocity for the 400 yards, and the velocity of the bullet leaving the barrel is specified at 3215 fps.
All numbers he pulled out of his arse? Plus there's the little problem that he doesn't present any actual audio evidence.
Kind of like your meaningless image that proves nothing. I'm not saying there was one gunman or many. Just that your image doesn't prove shit.
My meme references, measures, and explains actual audio. An analysis of two sequential burts of gunfire between: =============== Conclusion: Burst B is NOT two weapons being fired simultaneously. It is one weapon being fired at a more distant target. The longer distance, observable in the period between Burst B's T1 and T2, manifests a corresponding longer period of reverb. It is the reverb that is being incorrectly interpreted as a second weapon (and second shooter) firing at the same time. Research resources:
#84. To: VxH, A K A Stone (#80)
Your chartoon lists "Test for Echo" and gives links to the Taxi Driver video. Echo has nothing to do with measurements at the target site. The methodology you link, and cite, is for measurements at the target site, only. It uses the sound of bullet strikes on the venue surface, and the sound wave of the muzzle blast reaching the same recording device, not any echo. They are recorded on the same nearby microphone at line of sight, not at two different locations, not line of sight, and over 300 feet apart. You are absolutely clueless. Here are your exact words about your chartoon being about two different sounds from the Taxi Driver Video: I used the same speed I used in my other analysis (appended below) - based upon an air temperature of 72 degrees Then I calculated the difference in time between the last bullet sound (T1) and the corresponding last report sound (T2). [graphic omitted] T2-T1 = time the report traveled = 1.07 1.07 * FPS of 1130.8 = 1208.8 [graphic omitted] An analysis of two sequential burts of gunfire between: =============== Here you are citing times sounds are heard in the taxi, at least 340 feet from the shooter and around the corner, and the time en echo returned from who knows where, by an unknown path, back to the taxi, still at least 340 feet from the shooter. Nothing can be accurately calculated with this data. T2 - T1 is not the time some report traveled. It is time difference between the time of the bullet arrival report and the sound arrival report. If your dippy calculation were correct, and the bullet were subsonic, T1 would be larger than T2, the the time some mythical report traveled would be a negative number. T2 - T1 is larger or smaller depending on the difference between the speed of the bullet and the speed of sound. If the difference of the flight time of the bullet and sound at 1200 feet were .2 seconds, you would calculate (T2 - T1) the muzzle report traveled 400 yards in .2 seconds. The speed of sound would still take 1.06 seconds to travel 1200 feet. Regardless of what T2 - T1 indicates, the muzzle report will travel 1200 feet in 1.06 seconds. The difference between the two report times indicates the difference in the velocity of time and the velocity of the bullet. If the sound took 1.06 seconds, the distance was 1200 feet. With the known distance, the velocity of the bullet can be calculated. NOTE: "1.07 * FPS of 1130.8 = 1208.8" is incorrect. 1.07 * 1130.8 = 1209.956. NOTE: In the next mention FPS is 1130 ft per second at 72 degrees. NOTE: If you are measuring time between two different gunshots, rather than a shot and its own echo, you cannot derive distance. You would be measuring the time between two shots, saying nothing of distance about either one. The sounds are all from the Taxi Lady recording. These sounds do not give the aiming point, or point of origin of the shots. These sounds give the time sounds were recorded at the taxi. A sound that traveled 1.07 seconds at the speed of sound went 1,209.1 feet. (1,130 * 1.07). You cannot measure the Echo Distance from the aiming point back to the point of origin as there is no recording at the point of origin, the point of origin being the 32nd floor (supposedly). Both links go to the taxi video. The Echo Distance is from the point the sound reflected back, to the taxi location where it was recorded, following the path of the sound at ground level back to the taxi. What is recorded on the Taxi Lady video is the sound that traveled from the 32nd floor to the taxi, and whatever may have come from elsewhere as a sound reflected back. For a sound and its echo to show up on the taxi video at a 1.07 second interval, it had to travel to a reflective surface and back in 1.07 seconds, going a total distance of 1,209.1 feet. The event venue was about 400 yards away. For any recorded echo, the sound of the shot had to travel to the taxi, and the sound also had to travel from the 32nd floor to a reflecting surface and come back to the taxi. If the echo came from the venue area, 400 yards away, the echoed sound had to travel 400 yards to a reflective surface, then turn around and travel at least 400 yards, if the path were unobstructed at ground level, to the taxi location. If 1,209.1 feet were one way, the round trip out and back to the 32nd floor would be about 2,418.2 feet. The path back to the taxi, if unobstructed would be somewhat shorter, as 1,209.1 would be the hypotenuse of a triangle, with the distance back to the taxi being the long side of the right triangle, if unobstructed. Any obstructions at ground level would cause the sound to take an indirect path back to the taxi. You can make pretty graphics, and wonderful word salads, and throw around terms like relativity, but you cannot do simple calculation. Your analysis is pretty, but it is complete bullshit. No echo traveled to the venue and returned in 1.07 seconds. For a sound recorded in the taxi, there can be no corresponding echo of that sound recorded 1.07 seconds later in the taxi, if the echo came from the venue area. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/02/us/mandalay-bay-vegas-shooting.html New York Times Here is where 400 yards or 1200 feet come from. It is an estimated distance between Mandalay Bay and the Harvest Festival stage, at ground level, based on a Google image. As for your bullshit figure of 1209 feet distance for the bullet, it has a major problem. The approximate 400 yards you are using as known distance was measured at ground level from a google image. In the scenario where the gunman is at the 32nd floor, and floors average 10.9 feet, the gunman is about 338 feet in the air. You would have 338 feet be the short side of a right triangle, where the hypotenuse is 1209 feet. The long side of the right triangle, representing distance at ground level would be 1,160.79 feet. a2 + b2 = c2 3382 + x2 = 12092 114244 + x2 = 1461681 x2 = 1461681 - 114244 x2 = 1347437 x = 1160.79 feet. 50 feet here, 50 feet there, pretty soon it affects your calculations.
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#73. To: A K A Stone, VXH, buckeroo, tooconservative, cz82, redleghunter, sneakypete, Pinguinite, Vicomte13, Liberator, Deckard (#1)
Found this interesting video.
Thread: 308 Ammo Help
This is a .223 ballistics chart (external) generated using our ballistic trajectory calculator. Based off a standard 55gr bullet leaving the barrel at 3,215fps and follows the bullet trajectory all the way to 1000 yards in steps of 50 yard increments. The charting shows the range, drop (based off a 1.5" scope mount), current velocity, energy, and time in seconds in relation to the bullets movement through space and time. This chart does not account for atmospheric conditions, so if you want to take in to effect these things check out the calculators official page. The Ballistic Coefficient for the .223 Remington, Remington Metal Case, 55gr is 0.202 (in this example) but, but may also range from .185 bc to .257
-31.7981 [drop, inches]
1588 [Velocity]
308 [energy]
532 [time, milliseconds]
#78. To: nolu chan (#73)
#79. To: VxH (#78)
#80. To: A K A Stone (#79)
(Edited)
Just that your image doesn't prove shit.
["Taxi Driver Video" the Zapruder Film of the Las Vegas shooting UNCUT / UNEDITED]
https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=mBbOFwWquAw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m7s
and
https://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=mBbOFwWquAw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m24s
T1: Time from start of video (1minute N seconds) at the time of the last shot in the burst.
T2: Time from the start of the video (1minute N seconds) at the time of the echoed sound event corresponding to T1.
TempF: the air temperature (72 degrees F)
FPS: 1130 ft per second -- The speed of sound at 72 degrees F
Elapsed Time: T2 minus T1, the number of seconds between the last shot, and the echo of the last shot in each burst.
Total Distance: Elapsed Time * FPS = the total distance traveled between T1 and T2.
Echo Distance = The distance the echo traveled from the aiming point back to the point of origin.
===============
https://www.google.co m/search?biw=1544&bih=856&q=Forensic+Acoustics+gunfire
http://www.physic sclassroom.com/mmedia/waves/er.cfm
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/las- vegas/historic
http://www.csgnetwork.c om/soundspeedcalc.html
Replies to Comment # 80. My meme references, measures, and explains actual audio.
https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=53025&Disp=42#C42
["Taxi Driver Video" the Zapruder Film of the Las Vegas shooting
UNCUT / UNEDITED]
https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=mBbOFwWquAw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m7s
and
https://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=mBbOFwWquAw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m24s
===============
T1: Time from start of video (1minute N seconds) at the time of the last shot in the burst.
T2: Time from the start of the video (1minute N seconds) at the time of the echoed sound event corresponding to T1.
TempF: the air temperature (72 degrees F)
FPS: 1130 ft per second -- The speed of sound at 72 degrees F
Elapsed Time: T2 minus T1, the number of seconds between the last shot, and the echo of the last shot in each burst.
Total Distance: Elapsed Time * FPS = the total distance traveled between T1 and T2.
Echo Distance = The distance the echo traveled from the aiming point back to the point of origin. Las Vegas Shooting: Chaos at a Concert
and a Frantic Search at Mandalay Bay
UPDATED 10:30 PM ET, OCT. 2, 2017
End Trace Mode for Comment # 80.
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