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Title: ‘Goodbye Pittsburgh Steelers, Burn In Hell’: Angry Fans Burn Gear Over National Anthem Protest
Source:
CBS Pittsburgh
URL Source: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017 ... urn-gear-over-national-anthem/
Published: Sep 25, 2017
Author: staff
Post Date: 2017-09-25 16:34:46 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 11350
Comments: 57
PITTSBURGH (KDKA) – Pittsburgh Steelers fans are taking to social media to show how upset they are that the team stayed inside during the national anthem. Fans have posted numerous videos on social media of themselves burning their Steelers gear. “I’m a lifelong Steelers fan, not anymore. Not a fan of you, the NFL, any of it,” says Jim Heaney on YouTube. Heaney posted the video of himself setting all of his Steelers gear on fire following the team’s decision to decide to stay inside the locker room/tunnel during the national anthem. “And I hope all your ignorance burns too,” Heaney says as he throws his Steelers gear on the fire. Heaney ends his video by saying, “there you go, goodbye Pittsburgh Steelers, burn in hell, Semper Fi.” In another video posted to YouTube, Robert Williams of Texas posted a video of himself burning hundreds of dollars in Steelers gear. “We have morals in this country. We stand for this country. My great uncle’s bones are lying in the bottom of Pearl Harbor. For this country, for the flag, for your freedom to play in the NFL and to say whatever you want to say. But you do not disrespect the flag and the country and the Constitution. So watch this stuff burn,” Williams says. — Starving1 (@ArvinGibbs) September 24, 2017 In a video posted to Twitter, and shared more than 15,000 times, Arvin Gibbs is seen on video burning a Steelers sweatshirt and hat, while holding an American flag. “Super Bowl right? As if I care, what I care about is this country, what I care about is freedom, and it’s all about those stars and stripes,” Williams says. “Never again will waste one minute of my life following the NFL or the Pittsburgh Steelers,” another YouTube video user says. “I am no longer am a Steelers fan or of anyone that will not stand for our anthem no matter your political views or color of your skin. I hope your sport goes up in flames like my shirt did,” says Christos Kallas. “Today after 30 years of loving the Pittsburgh Steelers I’m going burn my Steelers jersey . They have taken a great American sport that people use to forget there problems with and turned it into a political circus that disrespects our Country and our Military that gave there lives for your freedom,” posted YouTube user Michael Hesson. The protest was also the main topic of discussion on 93-7 The Fan Monday morning. “They announced that the Steelers previously weren’t going to come on the field for the national anthem. When they came on the field, the whole bar booed, the whole single bar,” said one caller. “I actually got up and left I was so upset.” Head coach Mike Tomlin, who stood on the sideline without his team, said the team made the decision during a meeting on Saturday. Lisa Washington’s Report: Some fans believe the Steelers’ organization will suffer because of the action. “I don’t think the Steelers are going take a long-term hit,” said another caller. “I think it will be temporary hit, maybe the next couple of games. I think people will talk about it, but if they start winning, if they start producing, it will blow over, because as we know in this country, winning cures all.” Some fans said they supported Alejandro Villanueva, Steelers offensive tackle and a former U.S. Army Ranger. He stood near the tunnel Sunday during the National Anthem, with his hand over his heart. His teammates stood behind him. “Al Villanueva, he knows the real meaning of teamwork because he led men in combat,” said one caller. “He’s probably saying to himself, what am I doing with this group of people?” . . . Poster Comment: At least one famous Steelers fan is swearing off the team: Rush Limbaugh, a huge Steelers fan for decades. The mystique is gone. That actually started vanishing a while ago. The larger-than-life aspect of it is gone. The belief, the wish, the desire that the people in the game were the best and brightest and special, and that’s why they were there, that’s gone. And it’s been politicized. It has been politicized and corrupted, and it didn’t start this weekend. It started years ago. And if I wanted to, I could go back and get the transcripts from a few years ago on this program where I first sensed that this was happening and was going to happen. Of course, years ago I couldn’t predict this specific event, but my sadness actually began years ago when all of the attention focused on the danger and the supposed attempt to hide all of that, not specifically just the concussions. The whole aura that that created. The sports media began to criticize that which they report on. It just became politicized. It simply just became politicized. And the people politicizing it, since we’re talking about politics, the people that politicized it are people on the left. And when that happens, things change. It’s just over.
I have been a Steelers fan since 1966, but no more. pic.twitter.com/9W4oMl1EhF
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The comments section is very angry stuff. But who knows how many actual Steelers fans will take the pledge. Even so, that is brutal reporting for a team like Steelers to see in a local TV station. But if you’ll permit me first, I was personally saddened. I did not watch the National Football League yesterday, and it was the first time in 45 years that I made an active decision not to watch, including my team, the Pittsburgh Steelers. It was not a decision made in anger. It was genuine sadness. I realized that I can no longer look at this game and watch this game and study this game and pretend, you know, fantasize, everything a fan does. This whole thing has removed for me the ingredients that are in the recipe that make up a fan.
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#1. To: Tooconservative (#0)
My disgust with the NFL has been going on for a few years. I think when the plays started protesting because "the blackman is kept down by the system" over Treyvon Martin is when I started getting pissed off at the NFL for not coming down hard on them(Especially when the players were wrong). Like most stories put out by the MSM they were always insinuating "its the white man's fault". Well in Mr Martins situation the police nor the white man were involved. This did not stop the bs from taking off in MSM. Last year I gave up on the NFL. There are many reason. One is Jerry Jones and the other is having to listen to whinnie rich selfish spoiled brats telling me how pitiful it is to be a rich and famous 1%!
I was a little taken aback by the raw emotion some of these videos showed. That one old dude was so angry that he was crying when he started. And that one where he burned the jersey while the choir sang the anthem was pretty powerful for something put together by an amateur. I'm not sure how many of these angry fans are out there but there was some intense feelings. You should look at some of the comments on the YouTube pages for those vids. Real fury, way beyond the usual spatting you expect there.
Some of these Steelers fans are pissed. They also have a real talent for arson. Another Steelers arsonist with a flag, some gas and a lighter. He's wearing his vet gear. And playing a favorite version of the anthem. I really like this old guy, the thought he put into this. The anthem plays and the star-spangled banner is waving in victory over the burning Steelers merchandise. Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger speaks to Pittsburgh CBS station today: The audio from Limbaugh today, a longer version of the transcript above.
Now Villaneuva is saying that he made a mistake and that he just walked farther out of the tunnel than he was supposed to, that the QB and others got cut off by others walking into the tunnel and the rest of the team stopped for the anthem, leaving Villaneuva standing alone. It sounds like a fishy excuse from all involved.
Public relations expertise has never been a requirement to play pro-football before this year! They tried to handle a sensitive public situation wisely but muffed it up. How surprising is that? They're football players, not politicians!
Author: WCNC Staff ORHCARD PARK, N.Y. – Several Bills players knelt during the national anthem. Others locked arms. [...] Stadium worker Erich Nikischer quit his job at New Era Field after almost 30 years. “I waited until the National Anthem ended, I took off my shirt, threw my Bills hat on the ground, walked out,” Nikischer said in a sit-down interview with Channel 2 at his West Seneca home. Nikischer says he has no problem with players protesting before the National Anthem. It's when the kneeling continued into the song that strong feelings took over. [...] “I will never step foot in the that place again, I will never watch an NFL football game again until this ends,” Nikischer said.
Does the public even have a clear idea of what they're protesting? I don't. It could be several things. Who knows what they're really protesting at this point? I'm not sure even they know. But they're definitely going to take it out on that darned anthem and flag. 'Cause that'll show Whitey.
The anecdotes are interesting as are the burnings of the Steelers gear and other NFL gear. But it's the YouTube era so everyone is getting their 15 minutes of fame and it can make these things look like a movement when they're only a tiny tiny sliver of the public.
I think they are protesting the fact that some people don't think they should have the right to protest. If everyone cheers them on, then in a couple years, kneeling during the anthem will be considered an expression of deeper respect for the flag than the morons who stand through the whole thing. And then the guys standing up will be the protesters. Then everyone will be confused.
It is a FACT that neither these jackasses, nor any other jackass, has a right to engage in protest at work as an employee. If you imagine some such idiotic right, explain why they get fined if they criticize the officials. Does this bullshit right start and end with disrespecting the country, the flag, and the national anthem?
Kaepernick was protesting perceived oppression. His protest was directed at the nation and national symbols. As far as I can tell, he never identified his perceived oppression with any national agency, official, or employee. His protest was aimed at the flag and the natioal anthem, on the field and in uniform, because unity. The more current protests never focused on Kaepernick's protest. They lody the original vague focus and focused on Kaepernick not being employed by any team. When the management of NFL teams chooses not to employ a Colin Kaepernick, it somehow makes sense to direct protests at the nation and national symbols, on the field and in uniform. The most recent protest was against President Trump. Trump's exact woprds, You see, when Trump said "son of a bitch," the athletes were outraged. On Sunday, one of the athletes scored a touchdown and celebrated by exercising his right to freedom of expression. He got on all fours, hiked a leg, and on national television, on the field and in uniform, demonstrated how his mother taught him to pee. Despite his constitutional right to freedom of expression, and in violation of his constitutional rights, they fined him. This despite his explanation that he was a dog and he was just being a dog. His evident mistake was he forgot to tuck a small flag in his sock. Had he taken a flag from his sock, and put it on the ground, and made like he was peeing on the flag, then it would have been constitutionally protected free speech in the NFL because unity. On another score he gave a Black power salute because NFL unity week. The Giants have a sterling 0-3 record this season. They have two celebration penalties. Last week it was $12,154 for crotch grabbing. The Randy Moss moon was topped by the Doug Baldwin crap. The NFL has become a class act. Roger Goodell calls it protecting the shield. As we all know, if one speaks of somebody who disrespects our flag, that is racist. How dare President Trump suggest that if somebody disrespects our flag, that the owner should say "Get that son of a bitch off the field right now." President Trump was positively rude and the players should be given a safe zone.
Then again, by John Nolte [excerpt] You would think that this firestorm would have resulted in record ratings for Sunday Night Football, or at least a ratings boost. Unfortunately for the anti-American NFL, the exact opposite proved true with an 8 percent drop in viewership, compared to last week. This is a new season low. Compared to this time last year, the ratings decline was in the double-digits, a full 10 percent. How big is a sliver that equals 10% of the NFL Sunday tv audience?
The Giants have a sterling 0-3 record this season. They have two celebration penalties. Last week it was $12,154 for crotch grabbing. The Randy Moss moon was topped by the Doug Baldwin crap. The NFL has become a class act. Roger Goodell calls it protecting the shield. You can see why Limbaugh is sad over what the NFL has become. It's becoming less an organized sport, more a circus. Goodell is P.T. Barnum, a ringmaster in a carnival sideshow of freaks.
Given the quality of the product, ~11 minutes of action in a 4-hour broadcast, you have to wonder how (or if) audience share can even be as high as they claim.
Protesting aside, a darker side of pro-football is the long term injuries that are sometimes sustained. It's one of those things that are known to exist but is also ignored as an occupational hazard that fans and viewers have decided that is acceptable for players to be subjected to. The drop in ratings caused by players discovering their de facto power to express views, especially vulgar ones, may give life to a movement to quash football on health grounds. If blacks make up a disproportionately large portion of teams, perhaps even a majority, then maybe BLM will see fit to start protesting it. Well, maybe not BLM. In addition to fines, I do expect the NFL to take action by at least noting players that protest and not broadcast their celebrations. They will probably, if they haven't already, do a 10-second broadcast delay and block out any such activities. Obviously it won't prevent stadium attendees from seeing them and posting on youtube, but it will significantly minimize that damage to broadcast viewership, at least. I suppose they have already stopped broadcasting players during the anthem. Edit: Thinking a little more on it, the NFL may even decree that they will start firing players who engage on on-field protests and vulgarities. Obviously if the revenue lost from tolerating them is exceeded by that saved by keeping good players, it could be viewed as a long term equitable decision. Unfortunately, doing exactly what Trump suggested they do could make the NFL look like they are taking a pro-Trump position which may spark another controversy from the left. But they may find it an easier position to tolerate.
Baseball might be the same, give or take. But at least there is a lot more than 15 or 20 games per team per year.
Baseball is very different from a statist sport like the NFL. Baseball is supposed to be long and boring and kinda pointless. The NFL is supposed to be an action game, a metaphor for America conquering its enemies, loosely defined as the entire planet followed the rest of the solar system. : ) Baseball has lots of little teams and minor leagues and such. Football is a state-imposed monopoly with lots of taxpayer support at the local/state/federal level. nolu has written well about the real antitrust problems that the NFL has (or should have). I took the time to write a post on a fundamental problem with the anthem itself over on this thread. You might glance at it. I think that is the next step in the SJW assault on the anthem. You'll see the parallels that will likely be drawn to Confederate flags and statues.
NFL Teams Stayed in Locker Rooms For Anthem Until 2009—Then DoD Began ‘Paying for Patriotism’ What many people are missing in this debate is the fact that prior to 2009, NFL teams did not generally stand for the anthem. While having the option to do so individually if they chose to, most of the time they stayed in the locker room during this pregame ritual. Additionally, it has come to light that many of the “patriotic” pregame displays in the NFL are simply propaganda displays that were paid for by the U.S. Department of Defense and the National Guard – meaning that these displays were actually paid for by the American taxpayers. These displays of patriotic propaganda, called “paid patriotism,” were brought to light in April 2015, when Arizona Senator Jeff Flake released a statement condemning the practice. Then in November 2015, Flake and fellow Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain issued a report stating that the U.S. Department of Defense had been paying the NFL for patriotic displays in football and other sports between 2011 and 2014: Contrary to the public statements made by DOD and the NFL, the majority of the contracts — 72 of the 122 contracts we analyzed — clearly show that DOD paid for patriotic tributes at professional football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer games. These paid tributes included on-field color guard, enlistment and reenlistment ceremonies, performances of the national anthem, full-field flag details, ceremonial first pitchesU and puck drops. The National Guard paid teams for the “opportunity” to sponsor military appreciation nights and to recognize its birthday. It paid the Buffalo Bills to sponsor its Salute to the Service game. DOD even paid teams for the “opportunity” to perform surprise welcome home promotions for troops returning from deployments and to recognize wounded warriors. While well intentioned, we wonder just how many of these displays included a disclaimer that these events were in fact sponsored by the DOD at taxpayer expense. Even with that disclosure, it is hard to understand how a team accepting taxpayer funds to sponsor a military appreciation game, or to recognize wounded warriors or returning troops, can be construed as anything other than paid patriotism. In total, the Department of Defense paid 14 NFL teams $5.4 million from 2011 to 2014 for patriotic propaganda during NFL games. U.S. Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) called the spending wasteful spending that “leaves a bad taste in your mouth”: In total, the Department of Defense paid 14 NFL teams $5.4 million from 2011 to 2014 for patriotic propaganda during NFL games. U.S. Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) called the spending wasteful spending that “leaves a bad taste in your mouth”: I would agree! This is taxpayer funding for the purpose of eliciting greater public acceptance of a political viewpoint. Wow. This really adds another dimension to the whole mess.
The drop in ratings caused by players discovering their de facto power to express views, especially vulgar ones, may give life to a movement to quash football on health grounds. There is no right of employees to freedom of expression in the workplace, neither de jure nor de facto. The employer has the right to set the standard. The employee who chooses to violate the employer's standard can be fired. An imaginary so-called right, repeated endlessly by the media, does not become a right. When the owners decide they have to end this, they will discover that there is no such right, and they will inform the misbehaving employees that there is no such right. Killing off football for health reasons is as likely as killing off boxing and MMA or soccer on health grounds. As long as consenting adults, men and women, want to get in a cage and beat the crap out of each other, and other consenting adults are willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to watch them do so, and they will not see a need to listen to a movement by people who can just not watch. And with soccer being a darling sport, child concussions are no big deal. Not gonna happen. The networks make that decision. The celebrations are generally not protests. What is the guy simulating taking a crap on the field protesting? Constipation? Had they gotten Kaepernick off the field when he kneeled, they would have had to deal with BLM/Antifa. Now they have to deal with those who oppose BLM/Antifa which is a somewhat greater number, and poses a real danger to their business. It is somewhat akin to an MMA fight where Trump has the NFL in an inescapable submission hold, perhaps a rear naked choke with pressure on the carotids. The NFL does not feel the urgent need to tap out yet, but they alreay know this is not going to end well. They need to tap out before they get put to sleep. Correct. I observed on early thread that the NFL is in a no win situation. Trump has them in a position of defending disrespect for the flag. Continuing that will only lose fans. After last nights kneeling before the anthem, Trump noted the progress and told them exactly what they have to do — do not kneel during the anthem. Easy. Problem solved, Trump wins. Goodell and the owners lose a disastrous PR battle. That is still better than losing a prolonged PR war. If they want to, the NFL could give them an hour show every night on the NFL channel to discuss race in America. They could kneel for an hour, if the spirit moves them. They could just espouse their cause, whatever it is, for an hour a day. Just consider what would happen with such an opportunity to explain and espouse the protest.
Agreed. The way I see it, just because this protesting cannot be dealt with on criminal grounds does not mean it cannot be dealt with on contractural grounds. We normally have a "right" to break contracts, though we are not free of legal consequences of breaking them, such as being fired for not standing for the anthem. I think we have slightly differing concepts of what defines a "right".
A great difference is that there is no time limit. Overtime (extra innings) is unlimited. It is played at a leisurely pace.
I think we have slightly differing concepts of what defines a "right". A right is something that can be relied upon in court. Breaching a contract will subject you to being held liable in court. You cannot be held liable in court for exercising a right. There is no criminal penalty for violation of the flag code. Stomping on it, or burning it, is not a crime. Stomping of thee flag, or burning it, as an employee in the workplace, can get one fired before his trip to the police station has begun. You do not have a right to break contracts. While not a criminal offense, you may find yourself in civil court, liable for whatever damages the court assesses. If a WalMart employee, inside a WalMart store on mr. Sam's time, decides to exercise his right to protest, he may find himself being escorted out by the police. The NFL employee has no more right to peacefully protest on the field than does the fan coming out of the stands. If the NFL should choose to prohibit the player behavior, they could have the violating player taken away by the police, just like the fan who runs onto the field. The NFL player is an employee, nothing more. - - - - - - - - - - If you enter a contract with the intent of breaching its terms, you may find yourself liable at tort, rather then contract law. See Prosser, Wade and Schwartz's Torts, Cases and Materials, 12th edition, Foundation Press, 2010, pp. 417-18. Historically, the contract action developed considerably later than tort liability. Along with it, it remained possible to maintain the old tort action on the case in any situation where it had already been recognized. The result was a distinction, generally recognized, between "nonfeasance," where the defendant had done no more than make a promise and break it, and "misfeasance," where he had attempted performance but done the wrong thing. The tort/contract boundary was the prime analytical division in the law of obligations. That division became demarcated by the description that the duty in contract arose out of the agreement of the parties, while in tort it arose by operation of law. The language of duty became entrenched in the law of negligence because the contract/tort distinction rested on the source of the obligation. See D. J. Ibbetson, A Historical Introduction to the Law of Obligations (1999) at 170-173. Nonfeasance. In general, when there is only the promise and the breach, only the contract action will lie, and no tort action can be maintained. A good illustration is Louisville & Nashville R. Co. v. Spinks, 104 Ga. 692, 30 S.E. 968 (1898), where the defendant invited plaintiff to come to Cincinnati for employment and promised that if it did not employ him, it would furnish him with transportation back to Atlanta. He came, fell ilL and was not employed. Defendant refused to give him a ticket to Atlanta, and he was forced to walk the whole way, suffering "much from pain, weariness and blistered feet." It was held that his only remedy was an action on the contract and no tort action would lie. See also Newton v. Brook, 134 Ala. 269, 32 So. 722 (1902), where defendants contracted to prepare a body for shipment by a certain train and then did nothing. Again it was held that there was no tort remedy. To this general rule there are a few recognized exceptions. One is that a public utility or common carrier that has undertaken the duty of serving the public becomes liable in tort when it fails to do so, whether or not it has made a contract. See, for example, Nevin v. Pullman Palace-Car Co., 100 Ill. 222, 46 Am.Rep. 688 (1883); Zabron v. Cunard S.s. Co., 151 Iowa 345, 131 N.W. 18 (1911). Another is that a defendant who makes a contract without the intention to perform it is regarded as committing a form of misrepresentation or fraud for which a tort action of deceit will lie. See Burgdorfer v. Thielemann, page 1110. Promises or undertakings may form the foundation of a special relationship sufficient to impose a duty of care in negligence to take affirmative action to protect a person from harm. See Section 2.
Wake up and smell the coffee. The taxpayers also support it. The NFL can take it away at its own peril. Nothing you said changes the acceptable standard of behavior which the NFL should require if the players are on the field. Protests conducted in the current manner can only lead to a PR loss, big time. Yuge. Kneeling or locking arms, is not going to get the PR job done. Having the team hide in the locker room will not do it either. Eliminating the flag or the playing of the anthem will not do it. It is a PR problem and grinning for the camera like a babboon won't help either. Donald Trump has told the NFL what it must do. They will do it. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301 (a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem. (b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem— (1) when the flag is displayed— (A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; (B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and (C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed. (Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110–417, [div. A], title V, § 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.) The National Anthem was adopted by law, 46 Stat. 1508, H.R. 14, Public Law 823 of 3 March 1931.
What if we suddenly decide that we're Jehovah's Witnesses? : )
An update, since I just can't resist those. Today Maurkice Pouncey, Steelers center, gave a statement to the press, taking questions. He insists there is no doubt that 100% of the Steelers will take the field for the anthem and they will all be standing. It was on the Steelers Twitter page, @steelers, now on YouTube too. I can't recall ever hearing so much love for the flag and devotion to the anthem in my entire life. : ) I dunno what the rest of the NFL will do but the Steelers have had a major wakeup call.
What what I saw somewhere, the Steelers were not supposed to be in hiding for the anthem. The lone Steeler who was present last week wasn't supposed to be alone. The rest of the team or perhaps most of the rest of the team was supposed to be there with him, but they didn't make it out of the tunnel before the anthem started. Maybe a lame excuse. I dunno. I'm pretty much losing interest in the matter now. I expect the same is true for the masses.
It is should. It is not enforceable as a mandate. An employer sets rules for the workplace. If all the kneelers have sincere religious objection to standing, they can make their religion known to the employer and the employer can grant an accomodation. The league could let the player sit in the locker room so they do not insult the customers, and they could come out when the anthem is over. An accomodation is not required to be given for the purpose of conducting a political protest. Relevant Supreme Court precedent is at West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). That specifically applied to saluting the flag or reciting the pledge of allegiance. It might be said that simply standing respectfully, and not more, as one is expected to do for the playing of foreign nation's national anthem or flag, is not paying homage but showing good manners. Olympic athletes do not lie down and do stretching exercises at the medal ceremonies. Of course the player, in establishing his sincere religious exemption, may have to affirm that he practices said religion. It might be problematic in the post season when he rests on the sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. He might have to miss a couple of playoff games.
It is a PR problem, not aided by a lame excuse. The league can allow the players to sit, lie down, do stretching exercises, or take a nap, or hide in the tunnel. They could just do away with the playing of the national anthem. Pittsburgh's problem is that their fans were particularly insulted when the whole team, with team ownership and coach approval, hid in the tunnel from the national anthem. The coach and team coming down on Villenueva really exacerbated their problem. They should have stuck with a dumb team and one hero. Now they have a united dumb, pitch deaf team. The customers can always choose not to pay to be insulted. The lady selling Steelers merchandise had an empty store. When the customers are insulted enough, they can choose to avoid buying from the sponsors. To see Steelers fans burn their Terrible Towels and other swag is bound to get some attention. One Ravens fan burned season tickets. A lot of the pyros are military vets. The teams and players cannot persuade vets that sitting or kneeling during the anthem is not disrespecting the country, the flag, and the anthem. Put as much lipstick as you choose on that pig, and it will be no sale. It is a PR problem. The league wants the customers to keep paying for their product. The customers are say very loudly that the current product sucks.
You were quoting 36 U.S. Code § 301. I was addressing the portion that applies to civilians, not playas. 36 U.S. Code § 301 is the law. But the Witnesses broke its back many decades back. You would be among the very small number who knows just how many crucial free speech and religion cases the Witnesses prevailed in before the Court and some of the fairly scandalous cases they prevailed in.
I kind of wonder if they were more worried about Limbaugh and his microphone. He is known as a Steelers fan for decades, unswerving. The idea of Limbaugh taking shots at them from time to time, even in sadness, for years to come had to be giving their PR people nightmares. Hard to imagine a bigger or more influential member of Steeler Nation than Limbaugh.
The playas are civilians.
I knew he was a die-hard Steelers fan, but it didn't occur to me until you just pointed it out, how his show a few days ago may struck a nerve with management in Pittsburgh. I'll bet it struck the fans like the voice of the Steelers fans speaking to management. It was like breaking the decision to get a divorce.
Never mind. It was a lame joke.
Limbaugh has a hardcore audience of maybe 8-12M, maybe that many more who are less loyal but still tune in. They're heavily concentrated in Red states, older, male, more patriotic than average. And the biggest sector of NFL fans? Also heavily concentrated in Red states, older, male, more patriotic than average. You don't have to reach all of the hardcore NFL fans to ruin the NFL. It is popular culture and an intersection of social connections. Take 5 guys at any function (watercooler at work, a cafe or rural co-op, senior center, church event, family gathering, etc.). All of a sudden one of them doesn't want to watch or to talk about NFL football at all and pours scorn on those America-hating millionaire playas and their owners. What if it is 2 guys out of that group of 5? The NFL is not just another TV show. It's a cultural fixture, a social nexus. That's how it derives its huge TV ratings and huge income. Naturally, people in military families have their NFL habit pitted against these playas who want to disrespect the flag. That cannot lead to happy conversations and positive interactions about football. I wonder how the military is feeling about the NFL. I've seen a few flaming libs on Twitter claiming "I'm proud that I fought in Iraq for the right of these NFL players to disrespect our flag" and other stupid-sounding blarney (a few posted pictures of themselves in uniform, chubby women in support roles mostly). I really have to wonder if that can be more than a handful of military who really think that. I'm sure that libmedia is scouring social networks, trying to find these kinds of people so they can "prove" that the military really is supporting the NFL SJWs while carefully avoiding showing any military who hate seeing anybody take a knee for the anthem. The military will be a mixed bag of reactions, I think. The libs who don't like Trump will be for the SJWs and kneeling. The ones who support Trump will probably hate seeing the NFL doing this. Another large group will not get all that excited about it either way. The military used to love the NFL. You have to wonder whether anyone is talking NFL football on the military bases nowadays. I'd think it would make the topic kind of radioactive but that's just a guess. I would guess that suddenly all football talk is college teams because that is "safe".
I'm a listener and I sent a YouTube video of his monologue to my two (adult) boys. If others in Limbaugh's audience did the same, you're looking at an exposure of 24-36 million. Just sayin'.
Then they're missing the point. Of course they have the right to disrespect the flag. Nobody is calling for their arrest and incarceration. No laws of any kind were broken. We are simply saying we don't like it. That's all. And because we don't like it, we refuse to watch. And when enough of us stop watching, the NFL goes out of business. So my question to these flaming libs is, "Should the owners allow 10% of the players to put the NFL out of business?"
Right there. YOU are the danger to the NFL. And you perfectly illustrate how long Limbaugh's arm can be. Your sons may not listen to Limbaugh but he reached them through you. Yes, there is a definite multiplier effect for Limbaugh, and that power is most intense with the Steelers because Limbaugh is such a known fan over the years. Limbaugh loves Apple and loves the Steelers and has for decades.
The SJWs and Lefties (same people) would like nothing better than to destroy the NFL. They see it as a bastion of white supremacy, militarism, all the cultural stuff they oppose and always have.
I should think that the military (including vets) will be about 90+% negative. The Marines would approach 100% negative. If the NFL gets in the for 'em or against 'em territory, no sponsor wants to touch it. A sponsor does not want to pay big bucks for ads that cause a significant net loss of sales. Budweiser will not want to spend hundreds of millions to produce more Miller Lite drinkers. The NFL especially does not want politicians who can gain or retain office by campaigning for an end to NFL subsidies, trust exemption, or tax free bonds. If they lose 20% of their audience long term, that can translate to losing billions of dollars.
Of course, NO EMPLOYEE IN THE WORKPLACE has any RIGHT to disrespect the flag or make any political protest. He can do it IF the employer permits it in the workplace. Freedom of expression in the workplace is controlled by the employer, not the employees. The government cannot make it a crime, but the employer can discipline or fire them. An employee on the job does not have any right to drive away customers.
It also goes out to the military via AFRTS AND AFN.
One regional sponsor is pulling all his ads. Budweiser is nervous and not too happy but not jumping ship yet. Some player endorsement ad deals are falling through, most prominently one for a black playa for the Broncos losing his deal with one of Denver's biggest and best known car dealership networks. A few VFWs are cancelling the showing of any NFL games, one VFW in Maryland is inviting people to drop off any NFL gear to burn this Sunday and it is being promoted on local radio. The national Legion and VFW orgs have been very harsh in their statements. One more: Bloomberg: JPMorgan Suggests Bet Against CBS Amid NFL Anthem Controversy Ouch. You don't see that often. So the pressure is building slowly.
1986 Bears. Jim McMahon. Quarterback. Fined $5,000 for this:
He should have been arrested. Then had his blood drawn involuntarily.
Wonder no more. I work with mainly 20+ year military veterans. This time last year all we talked about at the lunch table was NFL football. Today over a brotherly gathering eating breakfast tacos no one brought up football other than Big 12 and SEC college ball. For the active duty service members? Mixed bag. Younger ones do keep talking about the games but the mid year and older types are like the old vets like me.
But memorable for this:
The black playa is Von Miller, the Superbowl MVP.
For the active duty service members? Mixed bag. Younger ones do keep talking about the games but the mid year and older types are like the old vets like me. I was hoping you'd share but didn't want to pry. Thx for the report. About what I'd expect. But what you describe is fairly dire for the NFL's longterm prospects.
We had one active duty NCO Latino chime in one of our conversations out in the field where we were training his unit. He had 3 tours in Afghanistan (recent) and said he was mighty pissed. He went on to say what we already knew, that he had to hand a few flags to wives or mothers in his service. Not to mention pick up itty bitty pieces of friends to place in a body bag. Even the body bags are draped with the flag on hero flights out of combat zones. You won't find many if any of those pictures on the net. Those who are on those flights know.
Here is more pressure from the NBA getting out ahead of it. Ian Begley Commissioner Adam Silver said he expected NBA players to continue standing for the national anthem. "It's my hope that our players will continue to use that as a moment of unity," Silver said Thursday after the league's board of governors meeting in Manhattan. "... Many of our players have spoken out already about their plan to stand for the anthem. And I think they understand how divisive an issue it is in our society right now." Silver said the playing of the national anthem has always been a time for respect and reflection -- even in a league where 25 percent of the players are not American -- and recalled that many teams locked arms last season. He wants them to continue showing unity during the anthem -- but to do it while standing, thereby adhering to league guidelines. The NBA has a rule stating that players, coaches and trainers must "stand and line up in a dignified posture" during the anthem. "It's been a rule as long as I've been involved with the league, and my expectation is that our players will continue to stand for the anthem," he said. Silver didn't say what would happen if any players refuse to stand, adding: "If that were to happen, we'll deal with it when it happens." [snip]
Silver is smart. He sees disrespecting the anthem as an inevitable loser for the league. Goodell has been an idiot. He fanned the flames, provided really bad leadership. Does Goodell ever do anything right? How the hell have the owners not fired his sorry ass years ago? I never understand it.
Even the body bags are draped with the flag on hero flights out of combat zones. You won't find many if any of those pictures on the net. Those who are on those flights know. People who never served in a combat zone just don't know, can't know unless someone tells them. They don't ever consider how those situations inevitably happen in a war, why respect for the flag and anthem really hits home with vets, combat vets most of all, and family members of vets take it very hard. It just shouldn't be part of people protesting anything. Pick something else to protest with.
The NBA starts tomorrow. They have been growing and the NFL has been shrinking. I don't usually watch too much NBA, but I seem to have some extra spare time. And why does "The NBA ha[ve] a rule stating that players, coaches and trainers must "stand and line up in a dignified posture" during the anthem," if the NFL players claim they have a constitutional right to sit down, kneel, or do stretcing exercises, and just protest during the anthem? Why is that not a constitutional right in the NBA? Silver blasted a giant hole in the NFL excuse to do nothing while denying responsibility. It mystifies me that the league did not act last year when it was just one idiot. I really do not see how he survives this. There is no leadership coming from the league office. See Jamaican Usai Bolt interrupt interview because of anthem:
They wouldn't have believed the results because no one can have that many drugs in their system and live. The '86 Bears were absolutely fun to watch -- on and off the field.
Fun vintage clip. That one black could have done rap and knew how to dance a bit too. Great promotion for the team though.
Goodell is totally to blame for the whole thing. He didn't stop Kaep. Then this year he coddled the protesters and encouraged them, then he gave the owners the bad advice of standing in protest with the team. They doubled down on a losing media strategy and they're losing. No one thinks this is about police shootings any more or Kaep not getting a contract or starting a racial dialog. It's just them thumbing their noses at Trump over some throwaway line they didn't like. They caused the whole meltdown and hurt the NFL, perhaps badly, by overreacting to some bit of Trumpery. And tried to protest by disrespecting anthem and flag.
#2. To: Justified (#1)
#3. To: All (#0)
#4. To: All (#0)
#5. To: Tooconservative (#0)
#6. To: Tooconservative, Justified (#0)
MAN QUITS NFL STADIUM JOB AFTER NATIONAL ANTHEM PROTESTS ORHCARD PARK, N.Y.
Published: 09/25/17
#7. To: Pinguinite, nolu chan (#5)
They tried to handle a sensitive public situation wisely but muffed it up. How surprising is that? They're football players, not politicians!
#8. To: nolu chan (#6)
#9. To: Tooconservative (#7)
Who knows what they're really protesting at this point? I'm not sure even they know. But they're definitely going to take it out on that darned anthem and flag. 'Cause that'll show Whitey.
#10. To: Pinguinite, Tooconservative (#9)
I think they are protesting the fact that some people don't think they should have the right to protest.
#11. To: Tooconservative (#7)
Who knows what they're really protesting at this point? I'm not sure even they know.
“Wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, ‘Get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out! He’s fired. He’s fired!’”
#12. To: Tooconservative (#8)
But it's the YouTube era so everyone is getting their 15 minutes of fame and it can make these things look like a movement when they're only a tiny tiny sliver of the public.
NFL Backlash: ‘Sunday Night Football’ Hit With Season-Low Ratings
Breitbart
25 Sep 2017
#13. To: nolu chan (#11)
On another score he gave a Black power salute because NFL unity week.
#14. To: nolu chan (#12)
How big is a sliver that equals 10% of the NFL Sunday tv audience?
#15. To: nolu chan, TooConservative (#11)
(Edited)
#16. To: Tooconservative (#14)
Given the quality of the product, ~11 minutes of action in a 4-hour broadcast, you have to wonder how (or if) audience share can even be as high as they claim.
#17. To: Pinguinite, nolu chan (#16)
#18. To: Tooconservative, Pinguinite, nolu chan (#17)
“NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy confirmed this morning the practice began in 2009, adding, ‘As you know, the NFL has a long tradition of patriotism. Players are encouraged but not required to stand for the anthem.’”
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Those who most loudly denounce Fake News are typically those most aggressively disseminating it.
#19. To: Deckard (#18)
#20. To: Pinguinite (#15)
Protesting aside, a darker side of pro-football is the long term injuries that are sometimes sustained. It's one of those things that are known to exist but is also ignored as an occupational hazard that fans and viewers have decided that is acceptable for players to be subjected to.
In addition to fines, I do expect the NFL to take action by at least noting players that protest and not broadcast their celebrations.
Edit: Thinking a little more on it, the NFL may even decree that they will start firing players who engage on on-field protests and vulgarities. Obviously if the revenue lost from tolerating them is exceeded by that saved by keeping good players, it could be viewed as a long term equitable decision.
Unfortunately, doing exactly what Trump suggested they do could make the NFL look like they are taking a pro-Trump position which may spark another controversy from the left. But they may find it an easier position to tolerate.
#21. To: nolu chan (#20)
There is no right of employees to freedom of expression in the workplace, neither de jure nor de facto. The employer has the right to set the standard. The employee who chooses to violate the employer's standard can be fired. An imaginary so-called right, repeated endlessly by the media, does not become a right.
#22. To: Tooconservative, Pinguinite (#17)
Baseball is very different from a statist sport like the NFL.
#23. To: Pinguinite (#21)
We normally have a "right" to break contracts, though we are not free of legal consequences of breaking them, such as being fired for not standing for the anthem.
1. PRIVITY OF CONTRACT
#24. To: Deckard, ooconservative, Pinguinite (#18)
Additionally, it has come to light that many of the “patriotic” pregame displays in the NFL are simply propaganda displays that were paid for by the U.S. Department of Defense and the National Guard – meaning that these displays were actually paid for by the American taxpayers.
36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
#25. To: nolu chan (#24)
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
#26. To: All, nolu chan, redleghunter, A K A Stone, misterwhite, Pinguinite, everyone else I may have missed (#25)
(Edited)
#27. To: Tooconservative (#26)
#28. To: Tooconservative (#25)
What if we suddenly decide that we're Jehovah's Witnesses?
#29. To: Pinguinite, Tooconservative (#27)
Maybe a lame excuse.
#30. To: nolu chan (#28)
#31. To: nolu chan (#29)
#32. To: Tooconservative (#30)
You were quoting 36 U.S. Code § 301. I was addressing the portion that applies to civilians, not playas.
#33. To: Tooconservative (#31)
I kind of wonder if they were more worried about Limbaugh and his microphone. He is known as a Steelers fan for decades, unswerving.
#34. To: nolu chan (#32)
The playas are civilians.
#35. To: nolu chan, redleghunter (#33)
I knew he was a die-hard Steelers fan, but it didn't occur to me until you just pointed it out, how his show a few days ago may struck a nerve with management in Pittsburgh.
#36. To: Tooconservative (#35)
Limbaugh has a hardcore audience of maybe 8-12M, maybe that many more who are less loyal but still tune in. They're heavily concentrated in Red states, older, male, more patriotic than average.
#37. To: Tooconservative (#35)
I've seen a few flaming libs on Twitter claiming "I'm proud that I fought in Iraq for the right of these NFL players to disrespect our flag"
#38. To: misterwhite (#36)
I'm a listener and I sent a YouTube video of his monologue to my two (adult) boys. If others in Limbaugh's audience did the same, you're looking at an exposure of 24-36 million.
#39. To: misterwhite (#37)
So my question to these flaming libs is, "Should the owners allow 10% of the players to put the NFL out of business?"
#40. To: Tooconservative (#35)
The military will be a mixed bag of reactions, I think.
#41. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#37)
Of course they have the right to disrespect the flag.
#42. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#36)
I'm a listener and I sent a YouTube video of his monologue to my two (adult) boys. If others in Limbaugh's audience did the same, you're looking at an exposure of 24-36 million.
#43. To: nolu chan (#40)
If the NFL gets in the for 'em or against 'em territory, no sponsor wants to touch it.
"JPMorgan Chase & Co.’s Shawn Quigg is encouraging investors to bet against CBS Corp. stock ahead of this weekend’s NFL broadcasts."
#44. To: Tooconservative (#0)
#45. To: misterwhite (#44)
1986 Bears. Jim McMahon. Quarterback. Fined $5,000 for this:
#46. To: Tooconservative (#35)
I wonder how the military is feeling about the NFL.
#47. To: misterwhite (#44)
#48. To: Tooconservative (#43)
one for a black playa for the Broncos losing his deal with one of Denver's biggest and best known car dealership networks
#49. To: redleghunter (#46)
Wonder no more. I work with mainly 20+ year military veterans. This time last year all we talked about at the lunch table was NFL football. Today over a brotherly gathering eating breakfast tacos no one brought up football other than Big 12 and SEC college ball.
#50. To: Tooconservative (#49)
Thx for the report. About what I'd expect. But what you describe is fairly dire for the NFL's longterm prospects.
#51. To: Tooconservative (#43)
So the pressure is building slowly.
Adam Silver says players know respecting the flag is important
ESPN Staff Writer
28 Sep 2017 8:55 pm
#52. To: nolu chan (#51)
#53. To: redleghunter (#50)
He had 3 tours in Afghanistan (recent) and said he was mighty pissed. He went on to say what we already knew, that he had to hand a few flags to wives or mothers in his service. Not to mention pick up itty bitty pieces of friends to place in a body bag.
#54. To: Tooconservative (#52)
Silver is smart. He sees disrespecting the anthem as an inevitable loser for the league.
Goodell has been an idiot. He fanned the flames, provided really bad leadership.
Does Goodell ever do anything right? How the hell have the owners not fired his sorry ass years ago? I never understand it.
#55. To: Tooconservative (#45)
Then had his blood drawn involuntarily.
#56. To: misterwhite (#55)
#57. To: nolu chan (#54)
I really do not see how he survives this. There is no leadership coming from the league office.
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