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Title: A Conversation With God
Source: Vicomte13, quoting Jesus a lot
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 22, 2017
Author: Jesus, mostly
Post Date: 2017-09-22 17:57:08 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 38838
Comments: 199

Greatly disturbed by what was happening here, yet not wanting to leave so many people behind after having conversed with them over so many years, I tried to work it out myself in successive posts to the board.

That only made things worse, so I walked away.

Unable to figure it out for myself I turned to God. I asked him to tell me what to say.

He answered me, saying: “Not yet. You still want to win.” So I waited. Yesterday, I started to get the answer. Here it is.

(1) I TOLD YOU TO LISTEN TO JESUS.

“You are my beloved son, in you I delight.” (Lk 3:22; Mk 1:11)

“This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight.” (Mt 3:17)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in whom my soul delights! I shall be placing my spirit on him, and he shall be reporting judging to the nations. He will not be brawling nor clamoring, nor will anyone be hearing his voice in the squares. A reed that is bruised He will not be fracturing, and flax that is smoldering he will not be extinguishing till he should ever be casting out judging for victory.” (Mt 12:20)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

And there came a cloud overshadowing them. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved. Hear him!” (Mk 9:7)

While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I delight. Hear him!" (Mt 17:5)

Ok, I’m listening. What does Jesus say?

(2) FOLLOW JESUS.

"What are you seeking?".. "Come and see." (Jn 1:38-39)

"Follow me.” (Jn 1:43)

"Follow me!" (Mk 2:14)

"Follow me." (Lk 5:27)

"Follow me!" (Mt 9:9)

"Follow me!" (Lk (9:59)

"Hither! After me, and I will make you become fishers of men!" (Mk 1:17)

"Hither! After me, and I will be making you fishers of men!" (Mt 4:19)

"Be following me, and leave the dead to entomb their own dead." (Mt 8:22)

“…And hither! Follow me.” (Lk 18:22)

“…And hither! Follow me, picking up the cross." (Mk 10:21)

And hither! Follow Me." (Mt 19:21)

"Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow me, in the renascence whenever the son of mankind should be seated on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)"

"Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in me. (Jn 14:1)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through me. (Jn 14:6)

“The spirit of the Lord is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon and to the blind the receiving of sight: to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon. (Lk 4:18)

“Hither to me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will give you rest. Lift My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light." (Mt 11:28-30)

“It is written in the prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning truth, is coming to me.” (Jn 6:45)

"My teaching is not mine, but His who sends me. If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from myself. He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet he who is seeking the glory of Him who sends him, this one is true, and injustice is not in him.” (Jn 7:16-18)

"If anyone should be serving me, let him be following me, and where I am, there my servant also shall be. And if anyone should be serving me, the Father shall be honoring him. (Jn 12:26)

"He who is believing in me is not believing in me, but in him who sends me.” (Jn 12:44)

"I am the light of the world. He who is following me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life." (Jn 8:1)

To Pontius Pilate: "You are saying that I am a king. For this also have I been born, and for this have I come into the world, that I should be testifying to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth us hearing my voice." (Jn 18:37) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.” (Rv 22:13)

Ok, Lord. You could not possibly have made that any clearer. You’ve really beaten that one in – I am to follow Jesus. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, and nobody comes to the Father except through him. Got it. But what does following Jesus MEAN?

(3) KEEP JESUS' COMMANDMENTS!

"It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" (Mt 4:4)

"It is written that, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration of God.'" (Lk 4:4)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mt 16:24)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mk 8:34)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his cross daily and follow me. (Lk 9:23)

"Now why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord,' and not doing what I say? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Lk 6:46-49)

“Not everyone saying to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in your name that we prophesy, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many powerful deeds?’ And then shall I be avowing to them that I never knew you! Depart from me, workers of lawlessness! (Mt 7:21)

"Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who is hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great." (Mt 7:24-27)

“And he who is not taking his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38)

“The spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who are not believing." (Mt10:63-64)

"If ever you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be-making-you-free" (Jn 8:31-32)

"And if ever anyone should be hearing my declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. He who is repudiating me and not getting my declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which 1 speak, that will be judging him in the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48)

“You are shouting to me ‘Teacher!' and 'Lord!', and you are saying ideally, for I am. If, then, I, the Lord and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet. 15 For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing. Verily, verily, I am saying to you, A slave is not greater than his lord, neither is an apostle greater than he who sends him. If you are aware of these things, happy are you if you should be doing them!” (Jn 13:13-17)

He who has My commandments and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he. who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him.''

“If anyone should be loving me, he will be keeping my word, and my Father will be loving him, and we shall be coming to him and making an abode with him. …He who is not loving me, is not keeping my words. And the word which you are hearing is not mine, but the Father's who sends me.” (Jn 14:21, 23- 34)

"I am the true grapevine, and My Father is the farmer. Every branch in me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit. He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit….Remain in me, I also am in you. According as the branch cannot be bringing forth fruit from itself, it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in me. I am the grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone should not be remaining in me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned. If ever you should be rernaining.in me and my declarations should be remaining in you, whatever you should be wanting, request, and it will be occurring to you. In this is my Father glorified, that you rnay be brlnglng forth much fruit, and you shall become my disciples. According as the Father loves me, I also love you. Remain in My love. If ever you should be keeping my commandments, you will be remaining in my love, according as I have kept the commandments of my Father and am remaining in His love.” (Jn 15:1-2, 4-10)

“You are my friends if you should be doing whatever I am directing you.” (Jn 15:14)

Ok. Got it. To follow Jesus MEANS doing what he said, keeping his commandments, understanding that what HE said came from YOU, and are the commandments by which we are to live. You know my predicament here. What commandments of Jesus apply? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to say!

(4) THIS.

"But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. (Lk 6:27-29)

“Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the most high, for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. (Lk 6:35)

"Become, then, merciful, according as your Father also is merciful.” (Lk 6:36)

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” (Mt 5:7)

“And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted; be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together. And running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again.” (Lk 6:37-38)

“Do not judge, lest you may be judged, for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

“And according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them” (Lk 6:31)

“All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 5:12)

"The blind cannot guide the blind. Will not both be falling into a pit?” (Lk 6:39)

“Now why are you observing the mote in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your own eye you are not considering? Or how can you be saying to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote in your eye,' observing not, yourself, the beam in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote in your brother’s eye.” (Lk 6:41-42)

45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking.” (Lk 6:45)

"You hear that it was declared to the ancients, 'You shall not murder.' Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.” (Mt 5:21-14)

“Thus, then, you be praying: 'Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name…And remit to us our debts, as we also remit those of our debtors.” (Mt 6:9,12)

“For if you should be forgiving men their offenses, your heavenly Father also will be forgiving you. Yet if you should not be forgiving men their offenses, neither will your Father be forgiving your offenses.” (Mt 6:14-15)

"Simon, I have something to say to you." ..."Two debtors paying usury were owing a certain creditor. The one owed five hundred denarii, yet the other fifty. Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." Jesus said, "Correctly do you decide." Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Are you observing this woman? I entered into your house; water for my feet you do not give, yet she rains tears on my feet and with her hair she wipes them off. A kiss to me you do not give, yet she, from the time I entered, did not intermit fondly kissing my feet; with oil my head you do not rub, yet she with attar rubs my feet; on behalf of which, I am saying to you, pardoned are her many sins, for she loves much. Now to whom there is scant pardoning, there is scant loving." (Lk 7: 40-47)

"You hear that it was declared, 'An eye for an eye,' and 'A tooth for a tooth.' Yet I am saying to you not to withstand a wicked person, but anyone who slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And he who wants to sue you and obtain your tunic, leave him your cloak also. And anyone who conscripts you one mile, go with him two. To him who requests you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, you may not tum.” (Mt 38-42)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9)

"Beware what you are hearing! With what measure you are measuring, it will be measured to you, and it will be added to you. For he who has, it shall be given to him; and he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him." (Mk 4: 24-25)

“Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering? Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye, and lo! the beam is in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.” (Mt 5:3-5) “You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet 1 am saying to you. Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your, heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:43-48)

"Either make the tree ideal and its fruit ideal, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known.” (Mt 12:33)

Perfect, Lord? Be perfect?

(5) YES.

Then, approaching, Peter said to Him, "Lord, how many times shall my brother he sinning against me and I shall be pardoning him? Till seven times?"[Jesus replied]... "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven. Therefore likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who wants to settle accounts with his slaves. Now, at his beginning to settle, one debtor was brought to him who owed ten thousand talents. Now, at his not having wherewith to pay, the lord orders him to be disposed of, and his wife and children and all, whatever he has, and payment to be made. Falling down, then, that slave worshiped him, saying, Lord, be patient with me, and I will pay you all! Now, having compassion, the lord of that slave dismisses him, and remits his loan. Yet, coming out, that slave found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him a hundred denarii, and, holding him, he choked him, saying, 'Pay, if you are owing anything!" Falling down, then, his fellow slave entreated him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you all!' Yet he would not, but, coming away, he casts him into jail, till he may pay what he is owing. Then his fellow slaves, perceiving what is occurring, were tremendously sorry and coming, they elucidate to their lord all that is occurring. Then his lord, calling him to him, is saying to him, 'Wicked slave! That entire debt I remit to you, since you entreat me. Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?' And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he mav pay all he is owing him. Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts.” (Mt 18:21-35)

"Whenever you may be praying, be saying, 'Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name! Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also…And pardon us our sins, for we ourselves also are pardoning everyone who is owing us."(Mt 11:2,4)

"Blessed indeed, then, are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!" (Mt 11:28

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

“Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him. And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying '1 am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him." (Lk 17:3)

“And whenever you may be standing praying, be forgiving, if you have anything against anyone, that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may be forgiving you your offenses. Now if you are not forgiving, neither will your Father Who is in the heavens be forgiving your offenses." (Mk 11:26)

"A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35)

"This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12)

“In these things I am directing you, that you may be loving one another.” (Jn 15:17)

“These things have I spoken to you that in me you may have peace…” (Jn 16:33)

“Peace to you!” (Jn 20:19)

“Now this He is saying Who is holding the seven stars in his right hand. Who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: ‘I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you cannot bear evil men, and you try those saying that they thernselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false; and you have endurance, and you bear because of my name, and are not wearied. But I have against you that you leave your first love. Remember, then, whence you have fallen, repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting.” (Rv 2:5)

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation. Blessed are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the log of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.” (Rv 22:14)

I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again. Given all of the above, what I can I do but apologize – to all of those here to whom I have shown smugness and arrogance and condescension – to paraclete and Liberator, and byeltsin; and to those to whom I have played the game of “eye-for-an-eye” – Mr White and others I do not remember by name, but I know there have been many, perhaps all.

And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right.

In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.

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#45. To: rlk (#39)

It consists primarily of a record of innocent people

Who after early childhood is innocent?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rlk (#42)

There is really no evidence that God doesn't exist.

That is telling about you.

That means you are a pessimist.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:27:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Vicomte13 (#36)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

You take two contrary positions.

You also said the following.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

So you're right - I have absolutely no belief at all that Christ will reach down from heaven and protect Christians from any diseases, or marauding enemies, or starvation, or natural disaster - because he DOESN'T protect us from any of things, and never said he would. Our reward for staying true to him is found on the other side, in the afterlife, not HERE.

If you have diabetes here, praying to Christ will keep you faithful to him to the end and win you the afterlife, but you're still going to lose your foot in THIS life, because Christ isn't going to lift a finger to protect you from the natural law, or from the marauding of other men. You have to help yourself in this life - Christ holds out the promise of happiness in the afterlife if, in the process of helping yourself in this one you don't do great evil, and you remember him and try to do what he said. That's the deal.

That Christ substitutes for human government in this life is impiety. It is ignoring what he really said, and adding nonsense to it that he never said.

Christ will not govern your country. He won't save you from malaria, or hurricanes, or earthquakes, or Nazis. He will have compassion on you, and receive your soul when they kill you, but he won't stop them from killing you, he won't drive off your diseases if you drink contaminated water, and he won't make hurricane Irma spare your life. He might on a one-off basis, but Christians at large get no pass, at all, from natural law.

Christ's deal is not about here.

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=52686&Disp=14#C14

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: A K A Stone (#47) (Edited)

You take two contrary positions.

Apparently.

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

On the other hand,, God CAN do it - certainly - because here and there he has done it. God is CAPABLE, certainly, of routinely healing everybody all the time, and of sending down manna from heaven so that we don't have to struggle to eat.

One might ask that, since God CAN reach down and just fix us all and feed us all, why he DOESN'T routinely do it.

I believe that the answer to that is found in the Scriptures. God acknowledges that these needs exist - indeed the economics of the world were set up by him to be the way that it is. But in both testaments he has placed the burden of taking care of the needs of men primarily upon men.

We are to take care of each other. God can, and sometimes does, intervene in individual cases. But God is not a replacement for a health care system or a welfare system for poverty relief, because he has told us he WANTS US to take care of each other (which requires us to privilege other human beings' needs over our personal desire to accumulate wealth and place our security in that wealth).

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true. God DOES sometimes grant individual miracles. But we cannot rely on miracle to replace our obligation to provide medical care and charity, for those are the primary way that God takes care of us - through the agency of one another.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   8:47:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#48)

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true.

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   12:31:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: A K A Stone (#47)

Christ's deal is not about here.

But I live here. I can not expect any more justice or consideration in the next life than I receive here from hypothetical all powerful all-knowing authorities.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-25   12:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Tooconservative (#49)

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

White is black, or black is white, depending on how you look at it, yes.

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

So yes, white is black, and black is white, if you look at it a certain way. Absolutely.

There's nothing wrong with looking straight at the complexity of reality.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   13:14:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   13:28:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Tooconservative (#52)

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

No. I directly addressed the point that you made.

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

And I stand by what I said in answer to AKA Stone's question.

Fact: Christian people faced with calamity, horror, death and illness the world over pray in desperation to God all the time.

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

It is a demonstrable fact that God simply does not dispense miracles on call in order to provide social welfare to the world on a daily basis. He does not do it, and we can all see it. He did call for us men to provide the relief to our neighbors. He told us not to pile up wealth, but to use it to help others. So he did provide a way that - if obeyed - is the standard way by which human suffering on a grand scale is relieved.

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us. Prayer is not a substitute for social welfare. Social welfare provided at the instruction of Christ is the way that God has said to answer that need.

BUT it is also true that God does, sometimes, reach down to individuals and perform stunning miracles. This is also a fact.

So, he does demonstrate that he IS, and he CAN, but no, we cannot RELY on that instead of doing what he said and providing the help ourselves.

That's what I said. I've repeated it now.

You desire to pull me off that, but I'm not inclined to get distracted. What I said is clear, and it is true.

I assume you're attacking again and again because you don't know what else to do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:30:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: All (#53)

The best thing to do at this point is to go back to the well and ask Jesus what he has to say about these things.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#53)

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

Black is white, and white is black?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:20

You're two for three on this thread in just the last dozen posts.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   14:36:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Tooconservative (#55) (Edited)

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Black is the absence of all light and the presence of all pigment. White is the presence of all light and the absence of all pigment.

Who is putting darkness for light or light for darkness? One has to know of what it is one speaks. If you speak of light, then the absence of it is darkness, and the presence of all colors of it is white light. If you speak of pigment, then the presence of it is black. Whether what you speak of is white or black depends on the frame of reference, obviously.

Are you trying to use semantics to deny physics?

Because you do this, play these games, what one ends up with from you is mere sophistry.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   15:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#53)

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us.

The devil is the tempted not God. It seems to me you are attributing Satan's characteristics and saying it is God.

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

I don't know if everything you said is a fact.

First off God does n hear everyone's prayers. I think I'm correct there.

Secondly you don't know if they are sincere or not.

Why do you think God answered your prayer but pretty much ignores 99.99999 percent of the other prayers.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Vicomte13 (#56)

So let me get this straight. Black is white and light is dark. If someone denies that they are denying physics. Ok so here is the question.

Since God is the light and satan is the darkness does that mean they are the same or just different sides of the same coin?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: A K A Stone (#57)

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

Obviously those things are true.

But God said that he is the creator of both good and evil. The Father is more remote from us, and creates both us and the viruses that kill us, and provides for both of us.

Jesus is OUR champion, the divine human the Father sent for us to follow through a world filled with obstacles that He created for His reasons - including disease and calamity, and Satan himself, all of whom are also creations of God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Vicomte13 (#60)

Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, orthodoxa (#60)

Jesus came to give life and give it more abundantly.

He said the devil came st steal kill and destroy.

I just wanted to get the quote better.

Anyhow didn't god in the Bible tell us that he doesn't tempt us?

That would contradict your earlier statement.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: rlk (#50)

Christ's deal is not about here.

That was a quote from Vic that I disagree with.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:09:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: A K A Stone (#63)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:12:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Liberator (#41)

Simply ask Him to show you the way.

Pride usually gets in the way of this.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-25   16:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: A K A Stone (#63)

Christ's deal is not about here.

That was a quote from Vic that I disagree with.

Understanding what you understand by that quote, I would disagree with it too.

Christ's deal is about here, yes. But here is not the primary focus. Here shall pass, and we are just passing through here, following Jesus to GET TO somewhere else.

When Jesus walked the earth, he healed passersby, and he sent his disciples out to cast demons out of many others. But he didn't simply raise his arms and banish illness. Nor did he empower those who came after to simply banish disease and call down bread from heaven like he did. Instead, he admonished all of us who would follow him to feed the poor and care for the sick - without supernatural power to do it easily with a raise of a hand.

So if it's important for me to retract the statement "Christ's deal is not here", I will. I will because what I meant by saying that is not what you hear by it, and it is a stumbling block, and there is no reason for me to just leave it there and stubbornly defend it because I happened to say it that way at some point in the middle of an argument about something else.

You clearly see something pretty bad in that, and I don't mean what you see, so I'll retract it and not say that anymore. I'm really not here to create problems or sow discord, or knock people off the path. Sometimes some of you talk to me as though I am, and it's not true.

I distinguish between what I perceive you are doing - which is to react to some of what I have said that doesn't seem to fit what you believe - and perhaps it is because my style of expression is sometimes really coming from a different orbit - and what Too Conservative is doing, which is to play a verbal game of gotcha because he's angry at my politics.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

Fully understand the distinction.

What is clear from the NT is Jesus left us, His church, to minister to one (and those outside the church) another as He ministered to His disciples and those who came to Him to be healed and forgiven.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-25   16:34:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: A K A Stone (#58)

Why do you think God answered your prayer but pretty much ignores 99.99999 percent of the other prayers.

I don't think he ignores 99.9999 percent of other prayers. I think that his not appearing to answer prayers - example, of those trapped under rubble in Mexico right now, dying of thirst, pinned in the dark - is hard for us to understand, unless we remember that after death there is more life. Then it's not so bad, and what we see as just utterly terrible is not, perhaps, on the divine scale of things, really all that terrible at all. It only seems so.

I think that the three miracles I recounted, on account of prayer, had a different purpose. The first was, I think, to preserve my life and the other two were to teach me something. All three of them happened when I was completely alone - and I think that was important. With the first, I was warned to secrecy: tell anyone, and you will be taken to the hospital, they will see your broken neck, and you will be paralyzed for life.

The purpose of these things was not to grant me authority before others, and I don't use them to claim it.

I use them to assert only God Is. God Is, and I know it. And I assert that specifically when challenged by two sorts of people: atheists who claim that I have no proof that God exists.

But, you see, I do have proof. It has been proven to me. Just because the atheist has no proof, and can assert that HE has no proof, or that there is no proof in the world (that he has ever seen), does NOT give him the authority to go farther and assert that I myself have no proof or knowledge inside of my head. I can't answer the first charge, because I don't know what he has seen. The second charge I can answer, but only by pointing at miracles he won't accept as such - and I know that so I don't insist. But his third point, that I myself have no proof: that is false. I do. I can't prove it to HIM, but then, I don't have to. Let him worry about the fact that I have proof and he doesn't. Let him try to claim I am crazy (nope), delusional (nope), a liar (nope). Let him rage in ignorance: I know what I know, and nothing he can blare out in ignorance can change that. And let him worry (If there IS a God, why is he talking to THAT JERK, and not ME?)

I don't use my miracles to argue for God on my authority. I have no authority. I used them myself to go look for OTHER miracles, ones that God left as a permanent public reveal. Those can be studied by everybody. If I just testify about my OWN miracles, then mine is the testimony of one, and I could be lying. My miracles were for me, not for the world. They have complex meaning for me, but I write too much as it is, and I'm sure that I don't want to get into the deep inner meanings that only I would ever understand because they pertain to my life.

I am obviously very much loved by God, though I don't think I deserve it. I am one to whom much has been given and more added besides, as opposed to one who, having little, had what little he had taken away. Obviously I am very thankful to have been placed on top of the wheel and not beneath it. This is not a boast: it is simply true.

Where it comes into play is when others who are also religious, in their different ways, attack me for my rather straightforward and Catholic faith. When anger and hatred are spewed at me - and they do get spewed at me - I sometimes stagger from the heat of the assault, but then I remember how God has touched me and blessed me, and I steady and I see anger for what it is - part blindness, part the workings of malign spirits who have pulled somebody away from the path and, in some cases, part jealousy.

In this respect, I am sometimes tempted to think that hard-core Calvinism is actually the truth: that the Lord decides before we are born whether we are among the Elect or the Doomed, and that I am a specially favored one of the Elect - as proven (to me) by three major miracles and a lifetime of exceptional blessing.

But I'm a Catholic, not a Calvinist. I was baptized as a tiny baby, and God put a seal on my soul. "You dance with the one who brung you" is an old country saying, and the one who brung me what the Catholic Church, with all of her problems and weakness, not really unlike me with all of my problems and mine.

If I am annoying you by answering your question in this way, I am sorry.

I do think many times that I should just keep quiet and not talk about religion with people, because they get so angry with me.

But then I remember Jesus admonishing me not to put my light under a bushel basket.

In the end, I can't answer your question satisfactorily. I have my theories. But ultimately what I need to do is put one foot in front of the other and try to follow what Jesus said.

My experience talking about these things with other Christians is often not a happy one, and I often thing I should just be silent and stop.

You are a person I could ask that question. I perceive that I do not cause you happiness when I speak of religion, and I do not inspire you to faith at all. That you hear, rather, something rather more like hissing than angelic choirs when I speak of God.

And this makes me sorry, and makes me think that I should not keep trying here, because it just works out so badly all the time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:05:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#61) (Edited)

AKA: Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

Vic: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Do not be taken in by this sophistry. Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

Look at the first verse of Isaiah 45: "Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;"

Understand that Jehovah is addressing Cyrus the Great, who was King of Persia, King of Anshan, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad. In short, he conquered and established the Achaemenid Empire. Cyrus was the king who freed the Jews from their long Babylonian captivity and enabled the building of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. He returned the sacred Temple vessels to them and gave them vast sums with which to rebuild the Temple. Cyrus is called "the annointed" which is very close to being called "the messiah" to the ancient Jews. No other Gentile in all of the Bible is described this way.

As for God creating good and evil, understand that the word rendered here as "evil" can also mean "sorrow" or "woe" or "judgment for sins" and similar meanings, not just evil itself. The Bible never teaches that God is the author of evil. NEVER! Anyone who tells you this is profoundly wrong or trying to lie to you. That is what Vic is doing here.

In addition, many scholars believe that Jehovah in this passage is repeatedly announcing himself as the god of light and the god of darkness, the god of good and the god of evil (woe) for a reason: to convince Cyrus that He is the true God and must be obeyed. Under the local Persian religion of the era, there was a fascination with pagan dualism which was a rising cult and which taught of the god of light/good and the god of dark/evil. Later, this became formalized into Zoroastrianism and other similar dualist cults that have persisted until modern times in the region. So Jehovah is saying to Cyrus that He and He alone is both the god of light/good and the god of darkness/evil to establish His authority because He intends for Cyrus to release the Jews from the Babylonian captivity and help them return to Israel prepared and equipped to rebuild and refurbish the Temple.

So why exactly is Vic now trying to tell you that the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is to establish that God is the author and origin of evil? That's a really good question. Is he ignorant or is he trying to deceive you?

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Tooconservative (#69)

Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

I am directly quoting God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:24:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Tooconservative (#69) (Edited)

So why exactly is Vic now trying to tell you that the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is to establish that God is the author and origin of evil? That's a really good question. Is he ignorant or is he trying to deceive you?

Too Conservative is asserting that God did not say what God said.

So tell me, too, can the Devil create life?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

You're verse-plucking out of context in the Old Testament, a classic device of profound heresy.

It is the deliberate attempt to use that verse so dishonestly that condemns you.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:26:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Tooconservative (#72)

Answer me, Satan.

Who created the Devil?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

You are lying. Deliberately in my opinion. You think you are playing a clever game with scripture.

Let's examine some translations including some Catholic ones. Since it does not appear at BibleGateway, I'll mention to start with this quote from BibliaCatolica and its New Jerusalem bible that you have read all your life: "I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things."

Here is a list of other translations of Isaiah 45:7 from BibleGateway.

KJ21I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
ASVI form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
AMPThe One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
AMPCI form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
BRGI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
CSBI form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CEBI form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CJBI form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
CEVI create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the Lord, do all of this.
DARBYforming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
DRAI form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
ERVI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.
ESVI form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
ESVUKI form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
EXBI make the light and create the darkness. I bring ·peace [prosperity; wholeness; C Hebrew shalom], and I ·cause [create] ·troubles [disaster; calamity]. I, the Lord, do all these things.
GNVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
GWI make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the Lord, do all these things.
GNTI create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.
HCSBI form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.
ICBI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.
ISV“I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the Lord, who does all these things.
JUBI form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.
KJVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
AKJVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
LEBI form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.
TLBI form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.
MSGGod’s Message to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom he took by the hand To give the task of taming the nations, of terrifying their kings— He gave him free rein, no restrictions: “I’ll go ahead of you, clearing and paving the road. I’ll break down bronze city gates, smash padlocks, kick down barred entrances. I’ll lead you to buried treasures, secret caches of valuables— Confirmations that it is, in fact, I, God, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name. It’s because of my dear servant Jacob, Israel my chosen, That I’ve singled you out, called you by name, and given you this privileged work. And you don’t even know me! I am God, the only God there is. Besides me there are no real gods. I’m the one who armed you for this work, though you don’t even know me, So that everyone, from east to west, will know that I have no god-rivals. I am God, the only God there is. I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. I, God, do all these things.
MEVI form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NOGI make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NABREI form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NASBThe One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.
NCVI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.
NETI am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.
NIRVI cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
NIVI form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NIVUKI form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NKJVI form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
NLVI make light and I make darkness. I bring good and I make trouble. I am the Lord Who does all these things.
NLTI create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.
NRSVI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVAI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVACEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVCEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
OJBI form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things.
RSVI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.
RSVCEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.
TLVI form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
VOICEI form light and create darkness; I make what is good, happy, and healthy, and I create woe. I, the Eternal One, make them one and all.
WEBI form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
WYCforming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.
YLTForming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

You are being very dishonest and it is obviously deliberate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:54:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Vicomte13 (#73)

Who created the Devil?

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Tooconservative (#75)

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

So, you acknowledge that God created Satan.

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   18:07:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Your attempt to distract is fooling no one.

You were deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45 to AKA and I caught you doing that and now you are scurrying away like a cockroach fleeing when a light is turned on.

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   18:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Tooconservative (#77)

I quoted the King James Version to AKA, which was the version that I agreed to use to avoid the sort of search-around-and-find-what-you-want-to-find-among-a-zillion-translations.

As it happens, the King James Version translates this verse correctly. What you prevented are a series of translations that dodge the issues. The line in the KJV goes directly to the heart of the matter.

Now answer my question: Can Satan create life, yes or no.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   20:34:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

As it happens, the King James Version translates this verse correctly. What you prevented are a series of translations that dodge the issues. The line in the KJV goes directly to the heart of the matter.

While I like the King James for its literary qualities, it certainly is not a perfect translation. In some passages, its renderings are archaic or inaccurate.

Now answer my question: Can Satan create life, yes or no.

I have no interest in your opinion on this matter that is not addressed in scripture directly. So make up whatever you like as usual but don't bother to address it to me. And don't try to demand answers of me in the tone of some grand inquisitor tormenting another victim of Rome's cruelt doctrines. I don't answer to the likes of you nor is it likely that your question has any bearing whatsoever to Isaiah 45 and Cyrus the Persian emperor, the topic at hand.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   20:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Tooconservative (#77)

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Obviously not. In Isaiah 45, God states bluntly that he creates evil and good. Which is obviously the case.

Can Satan create life? No.

Is the typhoid bacteria, the malaria larva, the AIDS virus - are these things life? Yes, they are. They are living things.

Satan cannot create life. God created the typhus bacteria, the AIDS virus and malaria. What are each of these things? Are they random bacteria lying around? No: they are living things designed specifically to attack a human host and live on human tissues. They create more suffering and more death among human beings than all of the earthquakes, famines and wars combined. The ultimate evil that human beings endure is being wiped out by the millions in epidemics. Epidemics are not accidents: they are the attack on the human species of living things, created anew every few years, to come and wipe out hundreds of millions, indeed billions, of human beings.

Earthquakes might be accidents, but diseases peculiar to man, that attack man through our reproductive systems, our blood and our excretory processes are designer miseries, and the only designer and creator of life in the Universe is God Almighty.

God makes these bugs to kill man. That is evil. God afflicts mankind with evil. He's not some inert being who stands aside while evil "happens". Living things do not spontaneously happen, and the devil cannot create life.

When God spoke to Moses, He told him that IF the Hebrews followed the food laws that He gave them, that HE would not afflict them with the diseases they suffered in Egypt. To be clear, God did not say that they would avoid disease, if they ate a certain way. He said that He would not sic diseases upon them. So, if the Hebrews broke kosher, it was God who was infecting their bodies with disease and killing them - not some passive agent.

God said that He creates good and evil, and the deadliest evil that afflicts all of mankind is in the form of epidemics, in which mankind dies by the millions, in agony, every year, from diseases that God created with the PURPOSE of killing mankind.

The translators of the KJV got it right: God creates good AND EVIL. God created Satan. God created malaria. God created AIDS and influenza.

God is really quite deadly to mankind - and HE KNOWS IT - which is why he sent a Savior, his Son, so that if we follow him, even though God's world will certainly kill us one way or the other, we can have confidence that it is not the end of the story, and our sorrow and pain be turned to joy. That does not mean that the sorrow and pain are not real when we are experiencing them. They are. And God creates the vehicles of that sorrow and pain and death, and then he sends those evils to attack us.

Nobody and nothing else can create life.

So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.

You spent so much time pretending that you had "gotten" me somehow that, well, everybody sees what you did.

Now, if you want to explain that God DIDN'T create Satan, or DIDN'T create malaria, or DIDN'T tell Moses that he would afflict the Israelites with disease, you can go ahead and try.

As for me, I will stand pat on the words of the KJV, because they accurately convey the obvious. Others of those translations do too: you're trying too hard to distinguish between "woe" and "evil".

In any case. there was never the slightest attempt to distract in anything I wrote. I was always direct. I asked direct questions. I answered questions asked of me. I misrepresented nothing.

You have not done the same. You won't answer questions. You have twisted yourself into a pretzel to accuse me of lying, deceit, dishonesty, manipulation.

False. I have told you exactly what I believe. I have told you why. I have given you the thought process by which I arrived at this conclusion, and I gave you proof text from the traditional Protestant Bible to make the point directly from the mouth of God. I could not possibly have been more direct, straightforward and honest.

You've had a hissy fit.

At this point we've both stated our cases. Yours is that I am a dishonest person, twisting Scripture for some nefarious purpose.

Mine is that the agreed-upon text says what is logically so, and I stand by what God said directly.

It is up to the readers to decide what they think.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Vicomte13 (#80)

Did god create evil and disease. Or are the natural wages of sin?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:14:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Tooconservative (#79)

I have no interest in your opinion on this matter that is not addressed in scripture directly.

What you mean is that you have no interest in things that are addressed in scripture directly, at least twice ("I create good and evil", and "I won't afflict you with diseases IF..."), if those things contradict your traditional opinions.

But if you're telling the truth and you have "no interest in my opinion on the matter", why do you keep writing about it?

I didn't "make up whatever I like, as usual". I didn't make up all of those quotes of Jesus. I didn't make up the quotes of YHWH to Isaiah or the Moses. Nor did I make up the biological realities of epidemics, that diseases are specific living things, and that God alone can make living things.

Those things are so, they all fit together, and it shouldn't be particularly controversial. You just hate me because I call out your political party and because I'm a Catholic, so you come unhinged when I write.

You do you. I'll do me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:14:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Vicomte13 (#80)

I'm not so sure that you are correct that God created evil as you say.

To be honest I'm not sure you are completely incorrect either.

I'll have to study more.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:17:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Vicomte13 (#82)

You stick to the king James it seems here. Though in other cases you flatly ignore it's plain words.

I'll name a few if you ask.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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