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Title: A Conversation With God
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Vicomte13, quoting Jesus a lot
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Published: Sep 22, 2017
Author: Jesus, mostly
Post Date: 2017-09-22 17:57:08 by Vicomte13
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Views: 47983
Comments: 199
Greatly disturbed by what was happening here, yet not wanting to leave so many people behind after having conversed with them over so many years, I tried to work it out myself in successive posts to the board. That only made things worse, so I walked away. Unable to figure it out for myself I turned to God. I asked him to tell me what to say. He answered me, saying: “Not yet. You still want to win.” So I waited. Yesterday, I started to get the answer. Here it is. (1) I TOLD YOU TO LISTEN TO JESUS. “You are my beloved son, in you I delight.” (Lk 3:22; Mk 1:11) “This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight.” (Mt 3:17) “Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in whom my soul delights! I shall be placing my spirit on him, and he shall be reporting judging to the nations. He will not be brawling nor clamoring, nor will anyone be hearing his voice in the squares. A reed that is bruised He will not be fracturing, and flax that is smoldering he will not be extinguishing till he should ever be casting out judging for victory.” (Mt 12:20) And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35) And there came a cloud overshadowing them. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved. Hear him!” (Mk 9:7) While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I delight. Hear him!" (Mt 17:5) Ok, I’m listening. What does Jesus say? (2) FOLLOW JESUS. "What are you seeking?".. "Come and see." (Jn 1:38-39) "Follow me.” (Jn 1:43) "Follow me!" (Mk 2:14) "Follow me." (Lk 5:27) "Follow me!" (Mt 9:9) "Follow me!" (Lk (9:59) "Hither! After me, and I will make you become fishers of men!" (Mk 1:17) "Hither! After me, and I will be making you fishers of men!" (Mt 4:19) "Be following me, and leave the dead to entomb their own dead." (Mt 8:22) “…And hither! Follow me.” (Lk 18:22) “…And hither! Follow me, picking up the cross." (Mk 10:21) And hither! Follow Me." (Mt 19:21) "Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow me, in the renascence whenever the son of mankind should be seated on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)" "Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in me. (Jn 14:1) "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through me. (Jn 14:6) “The spirit of the Lord is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon and to the blind the receiving of sight: to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon. (Lk 4:18) “Hither to me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will give you rest. Lift My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light." (Mt 11:28-30) “It is written in the prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning truth, is coming to me.” (Jn 6:45) "My teaching is not mine, but His who sends me. If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from myself. He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet he who is seeking the glory of Him who sends him, this one is true, and injustice is not in him.” (Jn 7:16-18) "If anyone should be serving me, let him be following me, and where I am, there my servant also shall be. And if anyone should be serving me, the Father shall be honoring him. (Jn 12:26) "He who is believing in me is not believing in me, but in him who sends me.” (Jn 12:44) "I am the light of the world. He who is following me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life." (Jn 8:1) To Pontius Pilate: "You are saying that I am a king. For this also have I been born, and for this have I come into the world, that I should be testifying to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth us hearing my voice." (Jn 18:37) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.” (Rv 22:13) Ok, Lord. You could not possibly have made that any clearer. You’ve really beaten that one in – I am to follow Jesus. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, and nobody comes to the Father except through him. Got it. But what does following Jesus MEAN? (3) KEEP JESUS' COMMANDMENTS! "It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" (Mt 4:4) "It is written that, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration of God.'" (Lk 4:4) "If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mt 16:24) "If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mk 8:34) "If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his cross daily and follow me. (Lk 9:23) "Now why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord,' and not doing what I say? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Lk 6:46-49) “Not everyone saying to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in your name that we prophesy, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many powerful deeds?’ And then shall I be avowing to them that I never knew you! Depart from me, workers of lawlessness! (Mt 7:21) "Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who is hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great." (Mt 7:24-27) “And he who is not taking his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38) “The spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who are not believing." (Mt10:63-64) "If ever you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be-making-you-free" (Jn 8:31-32) "And if ever anyone should be hearing my declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. He who is repudiating me and not getting my declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which 1 speak, that will be judging him in the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48) “You are shouting to me ‘Teacher!' and 'Lord!', and you are saying ideally, for I am. If, then, I, the Lord and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet. 15 For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing. Verily, verily, I am saying to you, A slave is not greater than his lord, neither is an apostle greater than he who sends him. If you are aware of these things, happy are you if you should be doing them!” (Jn 13:13-17) He who has My commandments and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he. who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him.'' “If anyone should be loving me, he will be keeping my word, and my Father will be loving him, and we shall be coming to him and making an abode with him. …He who is not loving me, is not keeping my words. And the word which you are hearing is not mine, but the Father's who sends me.” (Jn 14:21, 23- 34) "I am the true grapevine, and My Father is the farmer. Every branch in me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit. He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit….Remain in me, I also am in you. According as the branch cannot be bringing forth fruit from itself, it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in me. I am the grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone should not be remaining in me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned. If ever you should be rernaining.in me and my declarations should be remaining in you, whatever you should be wanting, request, and it will be occurring to you. In this is my Father glorified, that you rnay be brlnglng forth much fruit, and you shall become my disciples. According as the Father loves me, I also love you. Remain in My love. If ever you should be keeping my commandments, you will be remaining in my love, according as I have kept the commandments of my Father and am remaining in His love.” (Jn 15:1-2, 4-10) “You are my friends if you should be doing whatever I am directing you.” (Jn 15:14) Ok. Got it. To follow Jesus MEANS doing what he said, keeping his commandments, understanding that what HE said came from YOU, and are the commandments by which we are to live. You know my predicament here. What commandments of Jesus apply? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to say! (4) THIS. "But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. (Lk 6:27-29) “Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the most high, for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. (Lk 6:35) "Become, then, merciful, according as your Father also is merciful.” (Lk 6:36) "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” (Mt 5:7) “And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted; be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together. And running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again.” (Lk 6:37-38) “Do not judge, lest you may be judged, for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you. (Mt 7:1-2) “And according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them” (Lk 6:31) “All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 5:12) "The blind cannot guide the blind. Will not both be falling into a pit?” (Lk 6:39) “Now why are you observing the mote in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your own eye you are not considering? Or how can you be saying to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote in your eye,' observing not, yourself, the beam in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote in your brother’s eye.” (Lk 6:41-42) 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking.” (Lk 6:45) "You hear that it was declared to the ancients, 'You shall not murder.' Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.” (Mt 5:21-14) “Thus, then, you be praying: 'Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name…And remit to us our debts, as we also remit those of our debtors.” (Mt 6:9,12) “For if you should be forgiving men their offenses, your heavenly Father also will be forgiving you. Yet if you should not be forgiving men their offenses, neither will your Father be forgiving your offenses.” (Mt 6:14-15) "Simon, I have something to say to you." ..."Two debtors paying usury were owing a certain creditor. The one owed five hundred denarii, yet the other fifty. Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." Jesus said, "Correctly do you decide." Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Are you observing this woman? I entered into your house; water for my feet you do not give, yet she rains tears on my feet and with her hair she wipes them off. A kiss to me you do not give, yet she, from the time I entered, did not intermit fondly kissing my feet; with oil my head you do not rub, yet she with attar rubs my feet; on behalf of which, I am saying to you, pardoned are her many sins, for she loves much. Now to whom there is scant pardoning, there is scant loving." (Lk 7: 40-47) "You hear that it was declared, 'An eye for an eye,' and 'A tooth for a tooth.' Yet I am saying to you not to withstand a wicked person, but anyone who slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And he who wants to sue you and obtain your tunic, leave him your cloak also. And anyone who conscripts you one mile, go with him two. To him who requests you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, you may not tum.” (Mt 38-42) "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9) "Beware what you are hearing! With what measure you are measuring, it will be measured to you, and it will be added to you. For he who has, it shall be given to him; and he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him." (Mk 4: 24-25) “Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering? Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye, and lo! the beam is in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.” (Mt 5:3-5) “You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet 1 am saying to you. Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your, heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:43-48) "Either make the tree ideal and its fruit ideal, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known.” (Mt 12:33) Perfect, Lord? Be perfect? (5) YES. Then, approaching, Peter said to Him, "Lord, how many times shall my brother he sinning against me and I shall be pardoning him? Till seven times?"[Jesus replied]... "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven. Therefore likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who wants to settle accounts with his slaves. Now, at his beginning to settle, one debtor was brought to him who owed ten thousand talents. Now, at his not having wherewith to pay, the lord orders him to be disposed of, and his wife and children and all, whatever he has, and payment to be made. Falling down, then, that slave worshiped him, saying, Lord, be patient with me, and I will pay you all! Now, having compassion, the lord of that slave dismisses him, and remits his loan. Yet, coming out, that slave found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him a hundred denarii, and, holding him, he choked him, saying, 'Pay, if you are owing anything!" Falling down, then, his fellow slave entreated him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you all!' Yet he would not, but, coming away, he casts him into jail, till he may pay what he is owing. Then his fellow slaves, perceiving what is occurring, were tremendously sorry and coming, they elucidate to their lord all that is occurring. Then his lord, calling him to him, is saying to him, 'Wicked slave! That entire debt I remit to you, since you entreat me. Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?' And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he mav pay all he is owing him. Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts.” (Mt 18:21-35) "Whenever you may be praying, be saying, 'Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name! Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also…And pardon us our sins, for we ourselves also are pardoning everyone who is owing us."(Mt 11:2,4) "Blessed indeed, then, are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!" (Mt 11:28 “For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1) “Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him. And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying '1 am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him." (Lk 17:3) “And whenever you may be standing praying, be forgiving, if you have anything against anyone, that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may be forgiving you your offenses. Now if you are not forgiving, neither will your Father Who is in the heavens be forgiving your offenses." (Mk 11:26) "A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35) "This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12) “In these things I am directing you, that you may be loving one another.” (Jn 15:17) “These things have I spoken to you that in me you may have peace…” (Jn 16:33) “Peace to you!” (Jn 20:19) “Now this He is saying Who is holding the seven stars in his right hand. Who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: ‘I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you cannot bear evil men, and you try those saying that they thernselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false; and you have endurance, and you bear because of my name, and are not wearied. But I have against you that you leave your first love. Remember, then, whence you have fallen, repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting.” (Rv 2:5) "Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation. Blessed are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the log of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.” (Rv 22:14) I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again. Given all of the above, what I can I do but apologize – to all of those here to whom I have shown smugness and arrogance and condescension – to paraclete and Liberator, and byeltsin; and to those to whom I have played the game of “eye-for-an-eye” – Mr White and others I do not remember by name, but I know there have been many, perhaps all. And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right. In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.
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#81. To: Vicomte13 (#80)
Did god create evil and disease. Or are the natural wages of sin?
What you mean is that you have no interest in things that are addressed in scripture directly, at least twice ("I create good and evil", and "I won't afflict you with diseases IF..."), if those things contradict your traditional opinions. But if you're telling the truth and you have "no interest in my opinion on the matter", why do you keep writing about it? I didn't "make up whatever I like, as usual". I didn't make up all of those quotes of Jesus. I didn't make up the quotes of YHWH to Isaiah or the Moses. Nor did I make up the biological realities of epidemics, that diseases are specific living things, and that God alone can make living things. Those things are so, they all fit together, and it shouldn't be particularly controversial. You just hate me because I call out your political party and because I'm a Catholic, so you come unhinged when I write. You do you. I'll do me.
I'm not so sure that you are correct that God created evil as you say. To be honest I'm not sure you are completely incorrect either. I'll have to study more.
You stick to the king James it seems here. Though in other cases you flatly ignore it's plain words. I'll name a few if you ask.
I'll throw this out there also. I don't believe for a minute you raised anything from the dead. I don't know if god healed your neck or not. It is possible but to be honest I kind of doubt it.
None of the KJV translators held the opinions you have manufactured from a flawed understanding of their translation of Isaiah. They were well-known scholars and published on many Christian topics. None were ever accused of holding such views as what you are presenting here. You seem to misunderstand the entire narrative of Isaiah. Skimming through that tripe you just posted, it's clear you've invented some bizarre personal hyper-Calvinist Romanism. I've known a fair number of Calvinists and you go well beyond even the most hardnosed double-predestinarians Calvinists, certainly well beyond anything Calvin ever wrote in his Institutes. There is no way that any educated Catholic layperson or priest or bishop or even that idiotic Pope Frank would endorse anything you wrote above. If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.
God created nature and its laws. To quote the traditional statement of my beliefs: "I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things seen and unseen." So yes, God created disease. Bad things are the "natural" result of sin, because God made nature for it to be so. Life doesn't spontaneously arise: disease is created, and it doesn't randomly strike mankind - it is sent because of sin. God made that clear to Moses when he said (at Exodus 15:26) "If thou will diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD they God, ..., I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians..." And again, at Deuteronomy 7:15 "And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee: but will them upon all them that hate thee." Pretty direct. So "natural wages of sin"? To me, that implies that bad things just "happen" because of sin. But I see God saying (many times) that he imposes disease, calamity and suffering upon those who defy him. And of course things like the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah are examples of God directly wiping people out, for sin. We're all sinners, so it isn't surprising to me, anyway, that we all die. Except in the case of little children - then the full magnitude of God's creation of noxious things comes to bear, because (unlike among the Israelites if they kept the Law), God DOES let disease and deformity ravage little children, babies. Considering that the hairs on your head are numbered, and not a sparrow falls without the Father's consent, God's hand - as creator of these living diseases, as afflictor of them, and as knowing judge who does not lift his hand and prevent the working of these evil things on children, show the extent to which we're really and truly LOST without the Savior. God is deadly, and he knows it. So he sent Jesus to give us a way through the valley of tears. The valley IS still full of tears, and that shadow in this valley is death. We need not FEAR the evil, because through Christ our life will be brought through to the other side - but it's BECAUSE of Christ that we need fear no evil. The evil is not imagined, and it isn't an accident. Indeed, one thing's good is another's evil (the black/white thing). What is good for us is sure perceived as evil to the sheep whom we slaughter to eat. What the lion perceives as good, as it devours us, or what is good for the malaria larva, is evil to us. Good and evil are "relative" in this sense. Of course, we're human, so our frame of reference is fixed, and God has said that we're worth more than sparrows - and that he cares about the sparrows. Still, it's a hard world, and God did make it that way. It's Jesus who makes it ok.
I don't know if god healed your neck or not. It is possible but to be honest I kind of doubt it. I raised nothing from the dead. God raised two animals from the dead - a little lizard and a little mouse - in my hands. God healed my neck. It doesn't matter what you believe about it. The reason I am stubborn about God's existence is because these things are so, so how could I deny that he exists? Let's never speak of them again. They weren't intended to persuade you or anybody else of anything. I told of them to explain WHY I can't be shaken in my certitude about God's existence by sophistry and arguments, particular from the sort of argument that says there's no proof. Well, I have proof, so yes, God is proven - to ME. If I can't prove it to somebody else, well, that's too bad, but it's a dead letter to argue with me about the EXISTENCE of God. I know that God exists because of those things. That's the context for my bringing them up - to answer somebody who says that I have no proof of God. I have no proof that HE is going to believe, but there's just no point in arguing with me that God doesn't exist, because I know He does directly. Forget about my neck and the animals. Those things happened to me, and they explain my stubborn theism. They are why I wade in whenever an rlk says there is no proof of God. Yeah there is. None HE'LL listen to, but that is not really any skin off my nose, is it?
I stand by what I wrote. I am confident that it is true, and that it reflect the real God, who was, who is, and who will be, who revealed himself in the Scriptures, and who reveals himself all around us all the time. You obviously have a problem with it. It seems that you have a bunch of traditions about translations, traditions about who has the authority to decide such things, traditions about how to talk to Catholics and how to discuss religion. So many traditions. Not seeing much based on Scripture, though. Just seeing you vent your spleen at me.
I quoted YHWH from the King James, and I will quote Jesus from the King James. To me GOD is the authority, and the Bible and God are not synonymous. I always build Biblical arguments based on God, specifically, speaking in the Bible. First Jesus, and then YHWH and Elohiym before him. I don't build Biblical arguments based on the words of Apostles or prophets or historians, because I believe that the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God are the ones with authority, and that those words are identified in Scripture. If somebody is conversing with me, I pay attention with interest if the person is of goodwill (I have seen no goodwill in Too Conservative for a year and half). To tell you the truth, I usually do not sense goodwill from you, but sometimes I do. In any case, I try to converse, and there is a hermeneutic I use that is pretty consistent over the years. I have told anybody who asked WHY I believe what I believe (the miracles), and that also explains why I am particularly stubborn about what I believe - because I know, at least, that those rudiments are true - and why I'm not cowed by theological arguments or appeals to authorities that I don't recognize as real authorities. In a similar vein, I notice the extent to which I get accused of every sin the Catholic Church has ever committed. I usually just let it roll off, without citing all of the sins of each of the other churches as well - the Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists - they're all awash in sins as hideous as the Catholics. But I don't usually engage in that because when it is done to me it's just so completely ineffective. I ignore the comment as inapplicable to anything I have done and soldier on. And I'd imagine that were I to start citing the sins of Baptists from 150 years ago, or Lutherans from 500 years ago, that my arguments would appear just as foolish as ineffective as arguments that attempt to hang the guilt of the whole Catholic Church over the centuries upon me. It's an absurdly bad argument, and completely ineffective. It doesn't bait me much anymore either. It's just sort of pathetic. I don't personally think that the KJV is all that. But YOU DO, so I use it in discussing things with you for YOUR sake. That's what happened here. You asked me where, I quoted Isaiah rom the KJV (and later, Moses), and Too Conservative came absolutely unglued - because his hatred for me causes him to go nonlinear. When I was quoting Jesus calling for unity and peace among Christians, I wasn't being rhetorical. We're doing a pretty bad job of listening to him on that. I do think that the religious difference - Catholic to whatever your denomination is - is so wide that it is not possible for you to trust me, and that it's probably best for us to go in peace and let it go.
You worship an evil God. By your own admission. And you are proud of it. The god you worship is not the god of the Bible.
God is synonymous with the Bible. The pope isn't holy. Is a deceiver. Prays to a dead sinner who isn't a virgin. The pope contradicts god when he forbids marriage. That is why there are so many Catholic faggot. The sins and deception of the Pope and his band of wannabe usurper is gigantic.
There is only one God: Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. All things. Not some things. Not just the things I like. ALL things. God created man, and he created malaria. Who ELSE could create living things? He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said. He also sends us a way to achieve peace and life everlasting - by following Jesus. Pretty simple. Pretty biblical. If you're worshipping a different god, you're wasting your time on something that doesn't exist.
The pope isn't holy. Is a deceiver. Prays to a dead sinner who isn't a virgin. The pope contradicts god when he forbids marriage. That is why there are so many Catholic faggot. The sins and deception of the Pope and his band of wannabe usurper is gigantic. What is your denomination?
You espouse a philosophy far more wicked than the double-predestinarian Calvinist types ever did. You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church. It's no surprise to me that your most repugnant and distorted ideas come straight from your peculiar and distorted readings of the Old Testament, that you dive back into it over and over. It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.
My denomination is the Bible which I believe. Yours is the doctrine of men who you follow. Men who are liars and have lied about what god commanded. Such as not putting a dead sinner non virgin Mary over God. You don't believe the Bible to be the infallible word of God. I do. My beliefs are based on it. Some of your beliefs were borrowed from it too. But the Catholic church subtracted and added to scripture. The doctrine of fallen corrupt non holy father.
So, your denomination is yourself. You read the Bible, you decide what it means, and what you decide it means is what God meant by it. Got it. Let's stop. I've heard all of the anti-Catholic ranting before. Jack Chick has a whole comic book series about it. If it makes you feel good to to it, I can't stop you. I just perceive it as nasty and evil, and don't feel like playing anymore.
Peddling? Have I asked you for money? You have passed your judgment, loud and clear: "You are not a Christian in any meaningful sense." Anything else? As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.
I think they've recognized what you're peddling here. It is you who is isolated. Orthodox Christianity has never preached your foul philosophy of worshiping a god of evil. I think you are re-inventing gnostic philosophy by misusing the Old Testament, the most common path of heretics. You come close to embracing the ancient heresies on the demiurge. Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.
Did not God say ask and you shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened. Yes I believe the Bible. Can you admit that you aren't a Bible believer once and for all? Just be honest. Also admit that the Catholic church preaches things that are not in the Bible. Also please admit that some things that the Catholic church teaches are contrary to the Bible but you choose to believe men who call themself Pope instead of what is in the Bible which you consider full of errors. Can you do that?
I've never really read Jack Chick except for a few lines of what redleg posted. Even that I don't think I ever read completely.
Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?
That particular doctrine is only about a thousand years old. It was instituted by the pope (one of the Gregory's, I think) to combat the shameless misuse by bishops and cardinals of diverting church resources to their own children. Hence the celibacy and forbidding of marriage to priests. Of course, it was only in Europe where the rules against married priests were enforced. The European peasantry and bourgeosie seemed to crave the pale sickly effeminate virgin priests. In Africa, by contrast, an unmarried man is not respected in society at all. So it is a very routine practice for young men in seminaries to marry prior to becoming priests. If their wives die, they cannot re-marry. Here in America, you also have Episcopalian and Anglican priests and even some Lutheran clergy who are married and convert to Roman Catholicism and they keep their wives but are similarly forbidden from remarriage if she dies. There are supposedly around 200 married Roman priests in America. They help fill the shortage of priests in many areas.
I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things. Both the Monsignor and the other parish priest are there, and the discussion is lively. I'm not a heretic, at all, and what I have to say is well within the bounds of Catholicism. You just hate me, so you scream "heretic", etc., and do not think about what I am saying.
We should get redleghunter to re-post "Death Cookie", a Chick classic. As I recall, it is Vic's favorite too.
Peddling again. Everybody I've asked to give me money, please show your hands. [crickets] I am stating my opinion, and the bases thereof. It seems to drive you mad.
So you have a sweet little bible study at the local church of Rome with the Monsignor where you all celebrate your god of evil and pray to Mary. Lovely.
BTW, I did not want to leave the impression that bishops, abbots, cardinals and popes were childless simply because they forbid the regular clergy (priests, nuns, monks) from marriage. A notorious case involving children of a pope was Alexander VI, the Borgia pope. He had about a half-dozen children with his various mistresses and they were mostly each more awful than the next. They would attend the Vatican orgies and led truly scandalous lives. His daughter Lucretia was the most scandalous of all. Of course, the pope would marry off his children for political advantage to ally with other royal houses. With Lucretia, he married her off at least once, then decided he could get a better deal to whore her off to someone else, so he annulled her first marriage (convenient to be the pope, eh?) then married her off to some other poor sap. Alexander's daughter Isabella was the great-great-grandmother of Pope Innocent X, who was therefore descended in a direct line from Alexander. Alexander would have his mistresses in phony marriages to other men so he could pretend the children weren't his. When his power grew and he felt unassailable, he openly acknowledged them as his own. As Mel Brooks would have it, "It's good to be the king." Wiki: List of sexually active popes A portrait of Pope Alexander VI. Don't worry, he took advantage of every deathbed rite of Rome and was said to be very sorry for all the evil he had done deliberately throughout his life.
We have a macro account of Creation in Genesis chapter 1. In chapter 2 we have a more mankind focused micro view. In both chapters God communicates how He created and what He created. Evil is nowhere mentioned. Everything God created it is quote "it was good." We don't find out about evil or "knowledge of good and evil" until later on in Genesis chapter 2. Now what could possibly a knowledge of evil if it did not already exist? Perhaps the knowledge of the pride and disobedience of the fallen angels led by Satan. Which sets up the question. Did God create evil or create a free will situation with His created beings where they had a choice to obey and Love Him or disobey and reject Him? Put another way..."God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him." Not to sound like some 'cosmic love child', but it is all right there in Genesis and then again throughout the OT and fulfilled by Christ in the NT. God is Love and created us for His Glory and what better Love would there be to equip His prized creation mankind with the capacity to love as He Loves. Yet we have been all failures and that is why Jesus Christ was promised (Genesis 3) to lift the curse as Jesus Son of God and Son of Man was the only One to show this Love of original Creation.
Tyranus - You are no "cosmic love child."
"Good and evil" Biblically speaking is not relative but based on the absolute of God's Holiness which is revealed as His Law. We can only scratch the surface of what this exactly means and why we have the following to ponder: Isaiah 55: NKJV 8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. And then Jesus Christ proclaims thus: John 15: NKJV 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Thank you kind sir.
I agree. I suppose someone will be along soon to tell us that God only turned really evil as He got older.
Not only to those who defy Him but to those He loves and wants to test and forge into stronger metal. A cursory review of Job shows this. God found favor and no fault in Job but still allowed Satan to put his hand on Job for suffering. We are now back to Isaiah 55:8-9.
(2) Also admit that the Catholic church preaches things that are not in the Bible. (3) Also please admit that some things that the Catholic church teaches are contrary to the Bible but you choose to believe men who call themself Pope instead of what is in the Bible which you consider full of errors. Can you do that? I cannot admit all those things as you have put them. I will answer honestly and directly what I can admit to. As to question 1, I believe that the Bible contains the words of God as they were revealed through the end of the First Century. I believe that God's words are recorded in the Bible, along with the words of other people. I believe that where God speaks in the Scripture and the Scripture tells you "God said", that that is true. But - and here is where we depart in our definition of "Bible Believer" - I do not believe that God STOPPED his revelations in the First Century. I believe that he continues to reveal himself, his laws, his principles, his commandments, and other aspects of himself, to this very day. So therefore yes, I believe that the Bible contains the revealed words of Jesus and YHWH before him, up to the First Century. But no, I don't believe that the end of the Bible is the end of revelation, that God does not continue to reveal and legislate. The Bible is GOOD for instruction, but it is not the COMPLETE set of revelations. There have been more revelations from God in the past 1900 years, and those have been faithfully recorded and acted upon by the Church. I am being honest. It's contrary to your belief. You believe that everything that God revealed is in the Bible. I do not believe that. I think God has revealed much more SINCE 96 AD, and that we know what those revelations are, and they are just as much true and binding as what was revealed before. Which brings us to (2) Of course the Catholic Church teaches things that are not in the Bible! Mary did not have the role that God has since given her back in the First Century. Mary has been sent as God's emissary to various places around the world, revealing messages from God in the same manner that angels do. That's not in the Bible because it had not happened yet in 96 AD, when the last book was written, or in the 300s, when the books were gathered together into the Canon. God reveals things in his time, and time did not end in 96 AD. I believe that God sent the Holy Spirit into the Church, to continue to guide men forward with timely revelations when needed. Sunday as the day of Christian worship, as opposed to the Sabbath, was not revealed in the Bible. It was made the Christian day of worship later, by the Holy Spirit. Same thing with food laws. Where the Bible leaves off, Jesus made all foods clean but the Church, in Council at Jerusalem, backed up and ruled blood products and meat that had been strangled or offered to idols off limits. As the Church expanded into areas where blood-based foods are a staple of existence (Scandinavia, the Steppes, East Africa) the prohibition on blood was removed by the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Church. The prohibition of eating food offered to idols was overcome by events. The Holy Spirit took the Church back to the full pure standard of Jesus: eat anything, it's all clean for you. But this is contrary to where the Bible leaves the matter. The Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem still had Jewish scruples, and still ruled blood off limits to Gentiles. The Holy Spirit later changed that final Bible rule, through the Church. (3) I do not consider the Bible to be full of errors. It was accurate as of 96 AD. I consider it to be incomplete, because all of the revelations that God has made to the Church SINCE 96 AD are not in it. Some things that the Church teaches are contrary to the Bible. The only one I can think of right off is the prohibition on eating blood. Another one, I suppose, is the practice of calling priests "father", which contradicts what Jesus told the Jews listening to him not to do with regards to their rabbis. I can't think of anything else offhand, but I'm sure that you have some things in mind. I think I have answered your questions.
If only a Monsignor could reassure us on this point... This whole God-is-Evil bit does start to sound too much like some bit from an Austin Powers documentary about Christian theology.
Yep. In the end, God kills EVERYBODY, and usually in some miserable or painful way. Those who die in their sleep may well experience the pain of their heart attack in their dreams, or may not actually BE asleep when the death throes hit them. The process of passing from life into death is not pleasant, and God puts all of us through it.
It does sound like a fantasy novel. I don't know why you choose to write it here. I didn't say God is evil. I said God creates evil, and good. And all I was doing by saying that was QUOTING GOD! God also created ME, and I'm not God. He created you too, and though you choose to pronounce magnificent judgment upon people, you're not God either.
It did already exist. The serpent was there in the garden. Eve was ignorant of its evil intentions, but it had them, and it already existed. All that the fruit did was open the eyes of Adam and Eve so that they had KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Eating the fruit did not CREATE the evil, nor cause it to suddenly spring into existence. It was already part of existence. Men were just unaware of it. And then they were.
Both. Peter, the first Pope, was married. Many of the early Popes were married. Clerical celibacy was not revealed by the Holy Spirit as a necessary discipline of the Church until the Middle Ages, due to specific abuses going on then that God wanted to address. And now, it having continued through its appointed time, we come to a new era with new demands. When God decides it is time, the Holy Spirit will probably inspire the Church to change the disciplinary rule and permit married priests again in the Western Rite, and thereafter, bishops. But until God speaks to do that, the Church must proceed under the current rule.
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#82. To: Tooconservative (#79)
I have no interest in your opinion on this matter that is not addressed in scripture directly.
#83. To: Vicomte13 (#80)
#84. To: Vicomte13 (#82)
#85. To: Vicomte13 (#82)
#86. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, redleghunter (#80)
So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.
#87. To: A K A Stone (#81)
Did god create evil and disease. Or are the natural wages of sin?
#88. To: A K A Stone (#85)
I'll throw this out there also. I don't believe for a minute you raised anything from the dead.
#89. To: Tooconservative (#86)
If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.
#90. To: A K A Stone (#84)
You stick to the king James it seems here. Though in other cases you flatly ignore it's plain words.
#91. To: Vicomte13 (#89)
#92. To: Vicomte13 (#90)
#93. To: Tooconservative (#91)
(Edited)
You worship an evil God.
#94. To: A K A Stone (#92)
God is synonymous with the Bible.
#95. To: Vicomte13 (#93)
He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said.
#96. To: Vicomte13 (#94)
#97. To: A K A Stone (#96)
(Edited)
My denomination is the Bible which I believe.
#98. To: Tooconservative (#95)
You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church. ... It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.
#99. To: Vicomte13 (#98)
As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.
#100. To: Vicomte13 (#97)
#101. To: Vicomte13 (#97)
#102. To: Vicomte13 (#97)
#103. To: A K A Stone (#102)
Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?
#104. To: Tooconservative (#99)
Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.
#105. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#101)
I've never really read Jack Chick except for a few lines of what redleg posted. Even that I don't think I ever read completely.
#106. To: Tooconservative (#99)
I think they've recognized what you're peddling here.
#107. To: Vicomte13 (#104)
I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things.
#108. To: A K A Stone (#102)
(Edited)
Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?
#109. To: A K A Stone, Liberator, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#83)
(Edited)
I'm not so sure that you are correct that God created evil as you say. To be honest I'm not sure you are completely incorrect either. I'll have to study more.
#110. To: redleghunter (#109)
Not to sound like some 'cosmic love child' ...
#111. To: A K A Stone, Liberator, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#87)
Good and evil are "relative" in this sense.
#112. To: buckeroo (#110)
Tyranus - You are no "cosmic love child."
#113. To: redleghunter (#109)
In both chapters God communicates how He created and what He created. Evil is nowhere mentioned. Everything God created it is quote "it was good."
#114. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, A K A Stone, Liberator, *Bible Study Ping* (#87)
So "natural wages of sin"? To me, that implies that bad things just "happen" because of sin. But I see God saying (many times) that he imposes disease, calamity and suffering upon those who defy him.
#115. To: A K A Stone (#100)
(Edited)
(1) Can you admit that you aren't a Bible believer once and for all? Just be honest.
#116. To: redleghunter, Liberator (#111)
8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
So then we should not conclude that Christ is the Son of an Evil God and therefore Jesus was an Evil Savior?
#117. To: redleghunter (#114)
Not only to those who defy Him but to those He loves and wants to test and forge into stronger metal. A cursory review of Job shows this.
#118. To: Tooconservative (#116)
(Edited)
This whole God-is-Evil bit does start to sound too much like some bit from an Austin Powers documentary
#119. To: redleghunter (#109)
Now what could possibly a knowledge of evil if it did not already exist?
#120. To: A K A Stone (#102)
Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?
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