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Title: A Conversation With God
Source: Vicomte13, quoting Jesus a lot
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 22, 2017
Author: Jesus, mostly
Post Date: 2017-09-22 17:57:08 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 8094
Comments: 198

Greatly disturbed by what was happening here, yet not wanting to leave so many people behind after having conversed with them over so many years, I tried to work it out myself in successive posts to the board.

That only made things worse, so I walked away.

Unable to figure it out for myself I turned to God. I asked him to tell me what to say.

He answered me, saying: “Not yet. You still want to win.” So I waited. Yesterday, I started to get the answer. Here it is.

(1) I TOLD YOU TO LISTEN TO JESUS.

“You are my beloved son, in you I delight.” (Lk 3:22; Mk 1:11)

“This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight.” (Mt 3:17)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in whom my soul delights! I shall be placing my spirit on him, and he shall be reporting judging to the nations. He will not be brawling nor clamoring, nor will anyone be hearing his voice in the squares. A reed that is bruised He will not be fracturing, and flax that is smoldering he will not be extinguishing till he should ever be casting out judging for victory.” (Mt 12:20)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

And there came a cloud overshadowing them. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved. Hear him!” (Mk 9:7)

While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I delight. Hear him!" (Mt 17:5)

Ok, I’m listening. What does Jesus say?

(2) FOLLOW JESUS.

"What are you seeking?".. "Come and see." (Jn 1:38-39)

"Follow me.” (Jn 1:43)

"Follow me!" (Mk 2:14)

"Follow me." (Lk 5:27)

"Follow me!" (Mt 9:9)

"Follow me!" (Lk (9:59)

"Hither! After me, and I will make you become fishers of men!" (Mk 1:17)

"Hither! After me, and I will be making you fishers of men!" (Mt 4:19)

"Be following me, and leave the dead to entomb their own dead." (Mt 8:22)

“…And hither! Follow me.” (Lk 18:22)

“…And hither! Follow me, picking up the cross." (Mk 10:21)

And hither! Follow Me." (Mt 19:21)

"Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow me, in the renascence whenever the son of mankind should be seated on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)"

"Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in me. (Jn 14:1)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through me. (Jn 14:6)

“The spirit of the Lord is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon and to the blind the receiving of sight: to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon. (Lk 4:18)

“Hither to me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will give you rest. Lift My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light." (Mt 11:28-30)

“It is written in the prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning truth, is coming to me.” (Jn 6:45)

"My teaching is not mine, but His who sends me. If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from myself. He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet he who is seeking the glory of Him who sends him, this one is true, and injustice is not in him.” (Jn 7:16-18)

"If anyone should be serving me, let him be following me, and where I am, there my servant also shall be. And if anyone should be serving me, the Father shall be honoring him. (Jn 12:26)

"He who is believing in me is not believing in me, but in him who sends me.” (Jn 12:44)

"I am the light of the world. He who is following me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life." (Jn 8:1)

To Pontius Pilate: "You are saying that I am a king. For this also have I been born, and for this have I come into the world, that I should be testifying to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth us hearing my voice." (Jn 18:37) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.” (Rv 22:13)

Ok, Lord. You could not possibly have made that any clearer. You’ve really beaten that one in – I am to follow Jesus. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, and nobody comes to the Father except through him. Got it. But what does following Jesus MEAN?

(3) KEEP JESUS' COMMANDMENTS!

"It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" (Mt 4:4)

"It is written that, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration of God.'" (Lk 4:4)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mt 16:24)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mk 8:34)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his cross daily and follow me. (Lk 9:23)

"Now why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord,' and not doing what I say? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Lk 6:46-49)

“Not everyone saying to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in your name that we prophesy, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many powerful deeds?’ And then shall I be avowing to them that I never knew you! Depart from me, workers of lawlessness! (Mt 7:21)

"Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who is hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great." (Mt 7:24-27)

“And he who is not taking his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38)

“The spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who are not believing." (Mt10:63-64)

"If ever you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be-making-you-free" (Jn 8:31-32)

"And if ever anyone should be hearing my declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. He who is repudiating me and not getting my declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which 1 speak, that will be judging him in the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48)

“You are shouting to me ‘Teacher!' and 'Lord!', and you are saying ideally, for I am. If, then, I, the Lord and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet. 15 For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing. Verily, verily, I am saying to you, A slave is not greater than his lord, neither is an apostle greater than he who sends him. If you are aware of these things, happy are you if you should be doing them!” (Jn 13:13-17)

He who has My commandments and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he. who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him.''

“If anyone should be loving me, he will be keeping my word, and my Father will be loving him, and we shall be coming to him and making an abode with him. …He who is not loving me, is not keeping my words. And the word which you are hearing is not mine, but the Father's who sends me.” (Jn 14:21, 23- 34)

"I am the true grapevine, and My Father is the farmer. Every branch in me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit. He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit….Remain in me, I also am in you. According as the branch cannot be bringing forth fruit from itself, it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in me. I am the grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone should not be remaining in me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned. If ever you should be rernaining.in me and my declarations should be remaining in you, whatever you should be wanting, request, and it will be occurring to you. In this is my Father glorified, that you rnay be brlnglng forth much fruit, and you shall become my disciples. According as the Father loves me, I also love you. Remain in My love. If ever you should be keeping my commandments, you will be remaining in my love, according as I have kept the commandments of my Father and am remaining in His love.” (Jn 15:1-2, 4-10)

“You are my friends if you should be doing whatever I am directing you.” (Jn 15:14)

Ok. Got it. To follow Jesus MEANS doing what he said, keeping his commandments, understanding that what HE said came from YOU, and are the commandments by which we are to live. You know my predicament here. What commandments of Jesus apply? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to say!

(4) THIS.

"But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. (Lk 6:27-29)

“Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the most high, for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. (Lk 6:35)

"Become, then, merciful, according as your Father also is merciful.” (Lk 6:36)

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” (Mt 5:7)

“And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted; be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together. And running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again.” (Lk 6:37-38)

“Do not judge, lest you may be judged, for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

“And according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them” (Lk 6:31)

“All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 5:12)

"The blind cannot guide the blind. Will not both be falling into a pit?” (Lk 6:39)

“Now why are you observing the mote in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your own eye you are not considering? Or how can you be saying to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote in your eye,' observing not, yourself, the beam in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote in your brother’s eye.” (Lk 6:41-42)

45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking.” (Lk 6:45)

"You hear that it was declared to the ancients, 'You shall not murder.' Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.” (Mt 5:21-14)

“Thus, then, you be praying: 'Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name…And remit to us our debts, as we also remit those of our debtors.” (Mt 6:9,12)

“For if you should be forgiving men their offenses, your heavenly Father also will be forgiving you. Yet if you should not be forgiving men their offenses, neither will your Father be forgiving your offenses.” (Mt 6:14-15)

"Simon, I have something to say to you." ..."Two debtors paying usury were owing a certain creditor. The one owed five hundred denarii, yet the other fifty. Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." Jesus said, "Correctly do you decide." Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Are you observing this woman? I entered into your house; water for my feet you do not give, yet she rains tears on my feet and with her hair she wipes them off. A kiss to me you do not give, yet she, from the time I entered, did not intermit fondly kissing my feet; with oil my head you do not rub, yet she with attar rubs my feet; on behalf of which, I am saying to you, pardoned are her many sins, for she loves much. Now to whom there is scant pardoning, there is scant loving." (Lk 7: 40-47)

"You hear that it was declared, 'An eye for an eye,' and 'A tooth for a tooth.' Yet I am saying to you not to withstand a wicked person, but anyone who slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And he who wants to sue you and obtain your tunic, leave him your cloak also. And anyone who conscripts you one mile, go with him two. To him who requests you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, you may not tum.” (Mt 38-42)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9)

"Beware what you are hearing! With what measure you are measuring, it will be measured to you, and it will be added to you. For he who has, it shall be given to him; and he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him." (Mk 4: 24-25)

“Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering? Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye, and lo! the beam is in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.” (Mt 5:3-5) “You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet 1 am saying to you. Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your, heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:43-48)

"Either make the tree ideal and its fruit ideal, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known.” (Mt 12:33)

Perfect, Lord? Be perfect?

(5) YES.

Then, approaching, Peter said to Him, "Lord, how many times shall my brother he sinning against me and I shall be pardoning him? Till seven times?"[Jesus replied]... "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven. Therefore likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who wants to settle accounts with his slaves. Now, at his beginning to settle, one debtor was brought to him who owed ten thousand talents. Now, at his not having wherewith to pay, the lord orders him to be disposed of, and his wife and children and all, whatever he has, and payment to be made. Falling down, then, that slave worshiped him, saying, Lord, be patient with me, and I will pay you all! Now, having compassion, the lord of that slave dismisses him, and remits his loan. Yet, coming out, that slave found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him a hundred denarii, and, holding him, he choked him, saying, 'Pay, if you are owing anything!" Falling down, then, his fellow slave entreated him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you all!' Yet he would not, but, coming away, he casts him into jail, till he may pay what he is owing. Then his fellow slaves, perceiving what is occurring, were tremendously sorry and coming, they elucidate to their lord all that is occurring. Then his lord, calling him to him, is saying to him, 'Wicked slave! That entire debt I remit to you, since you entreat me. Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?' And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he mav pay all he is owing him. Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts.” (Mt 18:21-35)

"Whenever you may be praying, be saying, 'Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name! Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also…And pardon us our sins, for we ourselves also are pardoning everyone who is owing us."(Mt 11:2,4)

"Blessed indeed, then, are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!" (Mt 11:28

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

“Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him. And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying '1 am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him." (Lk 17:3)

“And whenever you may be standing praying, be forgiving, if you have anything against anyone, that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may be forgiving you your offenses. Now if you are not forgiving, neither will your Father Who is in the heavens be forgiving your offenses." (Mk 11:26)

"A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35)

"This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12)

“In these things I am directing you, that you may be loving one another.” (Jn 15:17)

“These things have I spoken to you that in me you may have peace…” (Jn 16:33)

“Peace to you!” (Jn 20:19)

“Now this He is saying Who is holding the seven stars in his right hand. Who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: ‘I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you cannot bear evil men, and you try those saying that they thernselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false; and you have endurance, and you bear because of my name, and are not wearied. But I have against you that you leave your first love. Remember, then, whence you have fallen, repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting.” (Rv 2:5)

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation. Blessed are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the log of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.” (Rv 22:14)

I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again. Given all of the above, what I can I do but apologize – to all of those here to whom I have shown smugness and arrogance and condescension – to paraclete and Liberator, and byeltsin; and to those to whom I have played the game of “eye-for-an-eye” – Mr White and others I do not remember by name, but I know there have been many, perhaps all.

And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right.

In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.

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#1. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

bookmarked for later reading...

Exercising rights is only radical to two people, Tyrants and Slaves. Which are YOU? Our ignorance has driven us into slavery and we do not recognize it.

jeremiad  posted on  2017-09-22   18:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Out-STANDING!

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-22   18:39:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Peace, and may your frogs and lizards live long and prosper.

Hondo68  posted on  2017-09-22   19:02:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

I hate to step on your toes but you are one long-winded, over-sensitive poster. Get over it.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-22   19:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: stoner (#0)

self ping

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

Never Pick A Fight With An Old Man He Will Just Shoot You He Can't Afford To Get Hurt

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." (Will Rogers)

Stoner  posted on  2017-09-22   19:44:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Next time you talk with the big guy,how about tell him I could really use some help picking lotto numbers?

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-09-22   19:58:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: sneakypete (#6)

I talked with him about the lottery once, trying to hold him to the Biblical "ask and ye shall receive" concept. He told me flatly that he will never give me a lottery win, because I want to rely on money and not him.

I still buy a ticket, to dream, but I know that there is zero chance of winning. And it's true - I never win anything.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-22   20:51:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

A Conversation With God

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-22   22:41:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

"A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35)

"This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12)

Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ. His Words presented for all to read in your post!

The quoted above is the "clincher" of all commands.

There is no higher standard to compare to than the Perfection of Christ Jesus.

Thank you for this.

God Bless.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-22   22:57:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

I think you nailed it!

paraclete  posted on  2017-09-22   23:15:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again

???

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-23   0:15:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#0)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

That isn't Luke 8:35.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-23   0:22:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: rlk (#8)

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

No.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   7:36:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: A K A Stone (#12) (Edited)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

That isn't Luke 8:35.

You're right. It's Luke 9:35.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   7:42:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#11)

???

Once, God showed me one gate of the City of God, high above and far off. It was very beautiful.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   7:44:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

Did God show you in the form of a vision or a child's colouring book all scribbled in?

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-23   7:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: rlk (#8)

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

Riddle me this, Batman: So when you dream, hear voices. As YOU speak to other alleged people -- is THAT "psychotic"?

Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-23   10:29:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Good summary! AMEN!

Liberals are like Slinkys. They're good for nothing, but somehow they bring a smile to your face as you shove them down the stairs.

IbJensen  posted on  2017-09-23   11:45:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#13)

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

No.

So we're seeing an instance of what is known as an encapsulated psychosis. The secondary advantage it gives to you is the capacity to bring toads and lizards back to life and speak with supposed unempeachable authority and superiority. Hang onto your self conferred feeling of greatness and confidence. It's all you have.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-23   13:50:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: rlk, Vicomte13 (#19)

So we're seeing an instance of what is known as an encapsulated psychosis.

You never did answer MY question at Post#17...

1) When you hear voices in *dreams* and speak to visages that obviously aren't of *this* dimension, should that be considered a "Psychosis," and why not?

2) MOREOVER, with respect to dreams with their illusions of time, space, people, and dynamic events and conversations mimicking THIS material world, why doesn't that present a dilemma to your claim that ONLY a Material/Physical World exists?

3) Lastly -- given *your* own "supposed unempeachable authority and superiority," are you able to disprove Vics' respective claims?

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-23   14:20:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Liberator (#17)

Riddle me this, Batman: So when you dream, hear voices. As YOU speak to other alleged people -- is THAT "psychotic"?

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real. I've had dreams where I have seen people I haven't seen for real in 20 years.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-23   14:20:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: rlk (#21) (Edited)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real. I've had dreams where I have seen people I haven't seen for real in 20 years.

Thanks for responding...

Robert, part of my point is that Dream-State "reality" -- or its dimension if you will -- is blended or substituted for our Waking State, yet is NOT of THIS material/physical world. Only upon awakening you can acknowledge and even be aware that those meetings and events with people you haven't seen in 20 years were NOT reality as you or I know it.

ERGO...Food-for-thought: How then can you so readily dismiss a dimension that may well exist (as does our Dream State) once your essence or soul departs THIS Waking-State physical dimension?

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-23   15:00:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: buckeroo (#16)

Did God show you in the form of a vision

It didn't feel like a vision. I thought I was physically there. Maybe I was. In any case, it was a full-body experience.

Obviously you aren't really interested, so let's not talk about it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:11:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: rlk (#19)

The secondary advantage it gives to you is the capacity to bring toads and lizards back to life It's all you have.

I didn't bring anything back to life. God did. It was an anole lizard and a tiny mouse.

Actually, I have been blessed in just about as many ways as a human being can be blessed. A great deal has been given to me, and I am very appreciative of all of it.

As far as it grants me unimpeachable authority to speak? Obviously not. I spoke like an arrogant ass for a good long time, and God spanked me even as I prepared this thread.

I do have the ability to say what I have seen and heard, and I am not embarrassed to do so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: rlk (#21)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real.

I was not asleep in any of the cases of which I have spoken. These experiences were not dreams.

They are, as you have put it, psychotic hallucinations, or they are real. I know them to be real, and I speak of them as real, because they are.

I do not claim that they give me unimpeachable authority. I do state that they make my belief in God unshakeable. I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Just because there exists a powerful being capable of reading my thoughts and manipulating my physical body does not mean, perforce, that that force is benign. It could be malign. I have faith that it is benign, not malign, in my case.

None of this is intended to convince you to believe anything I say. I IS intended to tell you, directly, that you are wrong in believing that God does not exist. He does. You don't know it now because you have not yet seen.

You will.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:19:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: rlk (#21)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real. I've had dreams where I have seen people I haven't seen for real in 20 years.

Did you owe them money?

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-23   21:35:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Amen.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-23   21:38:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#23) (Edited)

I thought I was physically there. Maybe I was. In any case, it was a full-body experience.

Great! A full body experience! Now we're into excapist mystical hippie drug talk. I sure can't penetrate that.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:15:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: redleghunter (#27)

I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Amen.

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

you are wrong in believing that God does not exist.

I don't argue that God does not exist. I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

In Alexander Pope's words, "Presume thy self not God to scan. The proper study of mankind is man."

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: rlk (#29)

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-24   1:46:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

My favorite quote here.

BTW, very good thread. Hopefully it will humble some people here.

goldilucky  posted on  2017-09-24   2:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.(John 11:25-27)

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-24   14:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: rlk (#28) (Edited)

I have never used illegal drugs in my life. I do not take any legal prescription medicines. I have never had any mind-altering drugs prescribed at any time in my life, other than a week of Percocet, twice, when I had really bad sprained ankles.

So no drugs are, or ever have been involved in my life.

I was not drunk nor do I have a regular habit of alcohol consumption. A glass or two of wine at family dinners on the weekends, and maybe a glass of rum when I have some around is about the extent of it.

I can count the number of times I have been drunk in my life on two hands, because I can identify the specific instances and remember each. So no, there isn't alcohol at work here either.

You're going to have to diagnose full psychotic hallucinations, in an otherwise fully functional, intelligent person, with no history of drug or alcohol abuse. And then you're going to to have to have these psychotic hallucinations produce generally positive results in the life of the individual - a very positive psychosis.

You should write it up and publish it, your fellow mental health professionals would no doubt find a case of positive psychosis an interesting exception to the general rule.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   15:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: rlk (#29)

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

There are no deserts in New England.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:00:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: rlk (#30)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:01:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: goldilucky (#32)

BTW, very good thread. Hopefully it will humble some people here.

As the passages were coming together for me, it was clear to me that I needed a lot of humbling.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: redleghunter (#31)

The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Now remember that in Hebrew and in Greek, wind and spirit and breath are the same word - Ruach in Hebrew, Pneuma in Greek.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:04:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#36) (Edited)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

World history says I'm correct. It consists primarily of a record of innocent people being killed or enslaved by never-ending assholes.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   17:41:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: rlk, Vicomte13, redleghunter (#39)

World history says I'm correct [in that there is no evidence of God.]

"World history"?? As in, "According to the written word of man, there is no God"? From which source(s) would that be?

It [World History] consists primarily of a record of innocent people being killed or enslaved by never-ending assholes.

Though true to a great degree, are you suggesting that evil behavior has indeed provided irrefutable evidence that God does NOT exist?

OR in the alternative -- are you suggesting that IF God *does* exist (as a great deal of "World History" unequivocally claims), He would intervene upon those who engage in evil acts?

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-24   19:03:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: rlk (#30)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

The follies of mankind are guided by what is referred to as "free will." That is not to say that God dis-concerns himself or ignores His earthly creation or prayers of man as a rule. Far too many people have given testimony that He DID and DOES answers prayers. One prayer He can NOT grant is Everlasting Life in THIS world, this physical dimension.

Do you suggest God intercede upon man's free will?; Do so partially or fully? But...might that kind of "intercession" upon our individual will be considered coercive?

WOULD God demonstrate His concern by emerging in the flesh, in THIS world? Then declaring a moratorium upon ending all death, suffering, sickness, and sickness? COULD he do it? Of course. Have you considered there's a reason that this is not His Plan?

Should He have created a Paradise on Earth? SOME "World History" has claimed He did....But due to man's Free Will he chose his own lot.

Did it occur to you that it is man's "free will" that has caused our own death, dying, and sickness in the first place? Yes, that is indeed a "World History" written by others you've chosen to dispel and dismiss. (Of your own free will of course.)

Man's Fall is well documented as you well know.

It is also left up to man to seek and find a resolution. Of our own Free Will.

In Alexander Pope's words, "Presume thy self not God to scan. The proper study of mankind is man."

Why presume the words of a self-deifying fool and liar provide wisdom and truth?

For an infinitely better and proper source for the study, truth, and wisdom of and for mankind's benefit, 'Proverbs' and 'Ecclesiastes' are worthy of a Full Scan.

NOT believing in a Creator-God and His Purpose is...Il-logical. As is the notion that God left us NO Instructions for THIS life as well as for access to the NEXT. He did. Only by seeking and finding through our own Free Will shall we do so.

Simply ask Him to show you the way.

Over and out.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-24   20:15:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Liberator (#40) (Edited)

Though true to a great degree, are you suggesting that evil behavior has indeed provided irrefutable evidence that God does NOT exist?

I'm only backing up what I originally asserted. If he exists, God does not intervene in the lives and activities of mankind. When you are born into this world it is up to you to take your best grip on life and run with it as long as it lasts. God will not intervene on your behalf. He is a distant uninvolved figure. You don't like to hear or see that.

I don't blame you for not liking that on a child's level. Unfortunately, as adults that's what we have to live with.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   23:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Liberator (#41)

One prayer He can NOT grant is Everlasting Life in THIS world, this physical dimension.

You mean DOES not. If he CAN not then he isn't God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Liberator (#41)

Have you considered there's a reason that this is not His Plan?

The caterpillar is not intended to remain as a larva forever, but is destined to a butterfly. It doesn't know what awaits it on the other side of the chrysalis. But God does.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:03:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: rlk (#39)

It consists primarily of a record of innocent people

Who after early childhood is innocent?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rlk (#42)

There is really no evidence that God doesn't exist.

That is telling about you.

That means you are a pessimist.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:27:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Vicomte13 (#36)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

You take two contrary positions.

You also said the following.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

So you're right - I have absolutely no belief at all that Christ will reach down from heaven and protect Christians from any diseases, or marauding enemies, or starvation, or natural disaster - because he DOESN'T protect us from any of things, and never said he would. Our reward for staying true to him is found on the other side, in the afterlife, not HERE.

If you have diabetes here, praying to Christ will keep you faithful to him to the end and win you the afterlife, but you're still going to lose your foot in THIS life, because Christ isn't going to lift a finger to protect you from the natural law, or from the marauding of other men. You have to help yourself in this life - Christ holds out the promise of happiness in the afterlife if, in the process of helping yourself in this one you don't do great evil, and you remember him and try to do what he said. That's the deal.

That Christ substitutes for human government in this life is impiety. It is ignoring what he really said, and adding nonsense to it that he never said.

Christ will not govern your country. He won't save you from malaria, or hurricanes, or earthquakes, or Nazis. He will have compassion on you, and receive your soul when they kill you, but he won't stop them from killing you, he won't drive off your diseases if you drink contaminated water, and he won't make hurricane Irma spare your life. He might on a one-off basis, but Christians at large get no pass, at all, from natural law.

Christ's deal is not about here.

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=52686&Disp=14#C14

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: A K A Stone (#47) (Edited)

You take two contrary positions.

Apparently.

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

On the other hand,, God CAN do it - certainly - because here and there he has done it. God is CAPABLE, certainly, of routinely healing everybody all the time, and of sending down manna from heaven so that we don't have to struggle to eat.

One might ask that, since God CAN reach down and just fix us all and feed us all, why he DOESN'T routinely do it.

I believe that the answer to that is found in the Scriptures. God acknowledges that these needs exist - indeed the economics of the world were set up by him to be the way that it is. But in both testaments he has placed the burden of taking care of the needs of men primarily upon men.

We are to take care of each other. God can, and sometimes does, intervene in individual cases. But God is not a replacement for a health care system or a welfare system for poverty relief, because he has told us he WANTS US to take care of each other (which requires us to privilege other human beings' needs over our personal desire to accumulate wealth and place our security in that wealth).

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true. God DOES sometimes grant individual miracles. But we cannot rely on miracle to replace our obligation to provide medical care and charity, for those are the primary way that God takes care of us - through the agency of one another.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   8:47:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#48)

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true.

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   12:31:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: A K A Stone (#47)

Christ's deal is not about here.

But I live here. I can not expect any more justice or consideration in the next life than I receive here from hypothetical all powerful all-knowing authorities.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-25   12:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Tooconservative (#49)

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

White is black, or black is white, depending on how you look at it, yes.

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

So yes, white is black, and black is white, if you look at it a certain way. Absolutely.

There's nothing wrong with looking straight at the complexity of reality.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   13:14:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   13:28:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Tooconservative (#52)

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

No. I directly addressed the point that you made.

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

And I stand by what I said in answer to AKA Stone's question.

Fact: Christian people faced with calamity, horror, death and illness the world over pray in desperation to God all the time.

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

It is a demonstrable fact that God simply does not dispense miracles on call in order to provide social welfare to the world on a daily basis. He does not do it, and we can all see it. He did call for us men to provide the relief to our neighbors. He told us not to pile up wealth, but to use it to help others. So he did provide a way that - if obeyed - is the standard way by which human suffering on a grand scale is relieved.

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us. Prayer is not a substitute for social welfare. Social welfare provided at the instruction of Christ is the way that God has said to answer that need.

BUT it is also true that God does, sometimes, reach down to individuals and perform stunning miracles. This is also a fact.

So, he does demonstrate that he IS, and he CAN, but no, we cannot RELY on that instead of doing what he said and providing the help ourselves.

That's what I said. I've repeated it now.

You desire to pull me off that, but I'm not inclined to get distracted. What I said is clear, and it is true.

I assume you're attacking again and again because you don't know what else to do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:30:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: All (#53)

The best thing to do at this point is to go back to the well and ask Jesus what he has to say about these things.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#53)

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

Black is white, and white is black?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:20

You're two for three on this thread in just the last dozen posts.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   14:36:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Tooconservative (#55) (Edited)

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Black is the absence of all light and the presence of all pigment. White is the presence of all light and the absence of all pigment.

Who is putting darkness for light or light for darkness? One has to know of what it is one speaks. If you speak of light, then the absence of it is darkness, and the presence of all colors of it is white light. If you speak of pigment, then the presence of it is black. Whether what you speak of is white or black depends on the frame of reference, obviously.

Are you trying to use semantics to deny physics?

Because you do this, play these games, what one ends up with from you is mere sophistry.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   15:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#53)

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us.

The devil is the tempted not God. It seems to me you are attributing Satan's characteristics and saying it is God.

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

I don't know if everything you said is a fact.

First off God does n hear everyone's prayers. I think I'm correct there.

Secondly you don't know if they are sincere or not.

Why do you think God answered your prayer but pretty much ignores 99.99999 percent of the other prayers.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Vicomte13 (#56)

So let me get this straight. Black is white and light is dark. If someone denies that they are denying physics. Ok so here is the question.

Since God is the light and satan is the darkness does that mean they are the same or just different sides of the same coin?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: A K A Stone (#57)

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

Obviously those things are true.

But God said that he is the creator of both good and evil. The Father is more remote from us, and creates both us and the viruses that kill us, and provides for both of us.

Jesus is OUR champion, the divine human the Father sent for us to follow through a world filled with obstacles that He created for His reasons - including disease and calamity, and Satan himself, all of whom are also creations of God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Vicomte13 (#60)

Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, orthodoxa (#60)

Jesus came to give life and give it more abundantly.

He said the devil came st steal kill and destroy.

I just wanted to get the quote better.

Anyhow didn't god in the Bible tell us that he doesn't tempt us?

That would contradict your earlier statement.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: rlk (#50)

Christ's deal is not about here.

That was a quote from Vic that I disagree with.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:09:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: A K A Stone (#63)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:12:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Liberator (#41)

Simply ask Him to show you the way.

Pride usually gets in the way of this.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-25   16:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: A K A Stone (#63)

Christ's deal is not about here.

That was a quote from Vic that I disagree with.

Understanding what you understand by that quote, I would disagree with it too.

Christ's deal is about here, yes. But here is not the primary focus. Here shall pass, and we are just passing through here, following Jesus to GET TO somewhere else.

When Jesus walked the earth, he healed passersby, and he sent his disciples out to cast demons out of many others. But he didn't simply raise his arms and banish illness. Nor did he empower those who came after to simply banish disease and call down bread from heaven like he did. Instead, he admonished all of us who would follow him to feed the poor and care for the sick - without supernatural power to do it easily with a raise of a hand.

So if it's important for me to retract the statement "Christ's deal is not here", I will. I will because what I meant by saying that is not what you hear by it, and it is a stumbling block, and there is no reason for me to just leave it there and stubbornly defend it because I happened to say it that way at some point in the middle of an argument about something else.

You clearly see something pretty bad in that, and I don't mean what you see, so I'll retract it and not say that anymore. I'm really not here to create problems or sow discord, or knock people off the path. Sometimes some of you talk to me as though I am, and it's not true.

I distinguish between what I perceive you are doing - which is to react to some of what I have said that doesn't seem to fit what you believe - and perhaps it is because my style of expression is sometimes really coming from a different orbit - and what Too Conservative is doing, which is to play a verbal game of gotcha because he's angry at my politics.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

Fully understand the distinction.

What is clear from the NT is Jesus left us, His church, to minister to one (and those outside the church) another as He ministered to His disciples and those who came to Him to be healed and forgiven.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-25   16:34:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: A K A Stone (#58)

Why do you think God answered your prayer but pretty much ignores 99.99999 percent of the other prayers.

I don't think he ignores 99.9999 percent of other prayers. I think that his not appearing to answer prayers - example, of those trapped under rubble in Mexico right now, dying of thirst, pinned in the dark - is hard for us to understand, unless we remember that after death there is more life. Then it's not so bad, and what we see as just utterly terrible is not, perhaps, on the divine scale of things, really all that terrible at all. It only seems so.

I think that the three miracles I recounted, on account of prayer, had a different purpose. The first was, I think, to preserve my life and the other two were to teach me something. All three of them happened when I was completely alone - and I think that was important. With the first, I was warned to secrecy: tell anyone, and you will be taken to the hospital, they will see your broken neck, and you will be paralyzed for life.

The purpose of these things was not to grant me authority before others, and I don't use them to claim it.

I use them to assert only God Is. God Is, and I know it. And I assert that specifically when challenged by two sorts of people: atheists who claim that I have no proof that God exists.

But, you see, I do have proof. It has been proven to me. Just because the atheist has no proof, and can assert that HE has no proof, or that there is no proof in the world (that he has ever seen), does NOT give him the authority to go farther and assert that I myself have no proof or knowledge inside of my head. I can't answer the first charge, because I don't know what he has seen. The second charge I can answer, but only by pointing at miracles he won't accept as such - and I know that so I don't insist. But his third point, that I myself have no proof: that is false. I do. I can't prove it to HIM, but then, I don't have to. Let him worry about the fact that I have proof and he doesn't. Let him try to claim I am crazy (nope), delusional (nope), a liar (nope). Let him rage in ignorance: I know what I know, and nothing he can blare out in ignorance can change that. And let him worry (If there IS a God, why is he talking to THAT JERK, and not ME?)

I don't use my miracles to argue for God on my authority. I have no authority. I used them myself to go look for OTHER miracles, ones that God left as a permanent public reveal. Those can be studied by everybody. If I just testify about my OWN miracles, then mine is the testimony of one, and I could be lying. My miracles were for me, not for the world. They have complex meaning for me, but I write too much as it is, and I'm sure that I don't want to get into the deep inner meanings that only I would ever understand because they pertain to my life.

I am obviously very much loved by God, though I don't think I deserve it. I am one to whom much has been given and more added besides, as opposed to one who, having little, had what little he had taken away. Obviously I am very thankful to have been placed on top of the wheel and not beneath it. This is not a boast: it is simply true.

Where it comes into play is when others who are also religious, in their different ways, attack me for my rather straightforward and Catholic faith. When anger and hatred are spewed at me - and they do get spewed at me - I sometimes stagger from the heat of the assault, but then I remember how God has touched me and blessed me, and I steady and I see anger for what it is - part blindness, part the workings of malign spirits who have pulled somebody away from the path and, in some cases, part jealousy.

In this respect, I am sometimes tempted to think that hard-core Calvinism is actually the truth: that the Lord decides before we are born whether we are among the Elect or the Doomed, and that I am a specially favored one of the Elect - as proven (to me) by three major miracles and a lifetime of exceptional blessing.

But I'm a Catholic, not a Calvinist. I was baptized as a tiny baby, and God put a seal on my soul. "You dance with the one who brung you" is an old country saying, and the one who brung me what the Catholic Church, with all of her problems and weakness, not really unlike me with all of my problems and mine.

If I am annoying you by answering your question in this way, I am sorry.

I do think many times that I should just keep quiet and not talk about religion with people, because they get so angry with me.

But then I remember Jesus admonishing me not to put my light under a bushel basket.

In the end, I can't answer your question satisfactorily. I have my theories. But ultimately what I need to do is put one foot in front of the other and try to follow what Jesus said.

My experience talking about these things with other Christians is often not a happy one, and I often thing I should just be silent and stop.

You are a person I could ask that question. I perceive that I do not cause you happiness when I speak of religion, and I do not inspire you to faith at all. That you hear, rather, something rather more like hissing than angelic choirs when I speak of God.

And this makes me sorry, and makes me think that I should not keep trying here, because it just works out so badly all the time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:05:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#61) (Edited)

AKA: Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

Vic: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Do not be taken in by this sophistry. Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

Look at the first verse of Isaiah 45: "Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;"

Understand that Jehovah is addressing Cyrus the Great, who was King of Persia, King of Anshan, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad. In short, he conquered and established the Achaemenid Empire. Cyrus was the king who freed the Jews from their long Babylonian captivity and enabled the building of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. He returned the sacred Temple vessels to them and gave them vast sums with which to rebuild the Temple. Cyrus is called "the annointed" which is very close to being called "the messiah" to the ancient Jews. No other Gentile in all of the Bible is described this way.

As for God creating good and evil, understand that the word rendered here as "evil" can also mean "sorrow" or "woe" or "judgment for sins" and similar meanings, not just evil itself. The Bible never teaches that God is the author of evil. NEVER! Anyone who tells you this is profoundly wrong or trying to lie to you. That is what Vic is doing here.

In addition, many scholars believe that Jehovah in this passage is repeatedly announcing himself as the god of light and the god of darkness, the god of good and the god of evil (woe) for a reason: to convince Cyrus that He is the true God and must be obeyed. Under the local Persian religion of the era, there was a fascination with pagan dualism which was a rising cult and which taught of the god of light/good and the god of dark/evil. Later, this became formalized into Zoroastrianism and other similar dualist cults that have persisted until modern times in the region. So Jehovah is saying to Cyrus that He and He alone is both the god of light/good and the god of darkness/evil to establish His authority because He intends for Cyrus to release the Jews from the Babylonian captivity and help them return to Israel prepared and equipped to rebuild and refurbish the Temple.

So why exactly is Vic now trying to tell you that the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is to establish that God is the author and origin of evil? That's a really good question. Is he ignorant or is he trying to deceive you?

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Tooconservative (#69)

Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

I am directly quoting God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:24:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Tooconservative (#69) (Edited)

So why exactly is Vic now trying to tell you that the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is to establish that God is the author and origin of evil? That's a really good question. Is he ignorant or is he trying to deceive you?

Too Conservative is asserting that God did not say what God said.

So tell me, too, can the Devil create life?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

You're verse-plucking out of context in the Old Testament, a classic device of profound heresy.

It is the deliberate attempt to use that verse so dishonestly that condemns you.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:26:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Tooconservative (#72)

Answer me, Satan.

Who created the Devil?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

You are lying. Deliberately in my opinion. You think you are playing a clever game with scripture.

Let's examine some translations including some Catholic ones. Since it does not appear at BibleGateway, I'll mention to start with this quote from BibliaCatolica and its New Jerusalem bible that you have read all your life: "I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things."

Here is a list of other translations of Isaiah 45:7 from BibleGateway.

KJ21I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.
ASVI form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
AMPThe One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.
AMPCI form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
BRGI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
CSBI form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CEBI form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
CJBI form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
CEVI create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the Lord, do all of this.
DARBYforming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
DRAI form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
ERVI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.
ESVI form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
ESVUKI form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
EXBI make the light and create the darkness. I bring ·peace [prosperity; wholeness; C Hebrew shalom], and I ·cause [create] ·troubles [disaster; calamity]. I, the Lord, do all these things.
GNVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
GWI make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the Lord, do all these things.
GNTI create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.
HCSBI form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.
ICBI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.
ISV“I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the Lord, who does all these things.
JUBI form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.
KJVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
AKJVI form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
LEBI form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.
TLBI form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.
MSGGod’s Message to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom he took by the hand To give the task of taming the nations, of terrifying their kings— He gave him free rein, no restrictions: “I’ll go ahead of you, clearing and paving the road. I’ll break down bronze city gates, smash padlocks, kick down barred entrances. I’ll lead you to buried treasures, secret caches of valuables— Confirmations that it is, in fact, I, God, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name. It’s because of my dear servant Jacob, Israel my chosen, That I’ve singled you out, called you by name, and given you this privileged work. And you don’t even know me! I am God, the only God there is. Besides me there are no real gods. I’m the one who armed you for this work, though you don’t even know me, So that everyone, from east to west, will know that I have no god-rivals. I am God, the only God there is. I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. I, God, do all these things.
MEVI form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NOGI make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, Yahweh, do all these things.
NABREI form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NASBThe One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.
NCVI made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.
NETI am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.
NIRVI cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
NIVI form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NIVUKI form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
NKJVI form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
NLVI make light and I make darkness. I bring good and I make trouble. I am the Lord Who does all these things.
NLTI create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.
NRSVI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVAI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVACEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
NRSVCEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.
OJBI form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things.
RSVI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.
RSVCEI form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things.
TLVI form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
VOICEI form light and create darkness; I make what is good, happy, and healthy, and I create woe. I, the Eternal One, make them one and all.
WEBI form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
WYCforming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.
YLTForming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

You are being very dishonest and it is obviously deliberate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:54:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Vicomte13 (#73)

Who created the Devil?

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Tooconservative (#75)

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

So, you acknowledge that God created Satan.

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   18:07:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Your attempt to distract is fooling no one.

You were deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45 to AKA and I caught you doing that and now you are scurrying away like a cockroach fleeing when a light is turned on.

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   18:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Tooconservative (#77)

I quoted the King James Version to AKA, which was the version that I agreed to use to avoid the sort of search-around-and-find-what-you-want-to-find-among-a-zillion-translations.

As it happens, the King James Version translates this verse correctly. What you prevented are a series of translations that dodge the issues. The line in the KJV goes directly to the heart of the matter.

Now answer my question: Can Satan create life, yes or no.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   20:34:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

As it happens, the King James Version translates this verse correctly. What you prevented are a series of translations that dodge the issues. The line in the KJV goes directly to the heart of the matter.

While I like the King James for its literary qualities, it certainly is not a perfect translation. In some passages, its renderings are archaic or inaccurate.

Now answer my question: Can Satan create life, yes or no.

I have no interest in your opinion on this matter that is not addressed in scripture directly. So make up whatever you like as usual but don't bother to address it to me. And don't try to demand answers of me in the tone of some grand inquisitor tormenting another victim of Rome's cruelt doctrines. I don't answer to the likes of you nor is it likely that your question has any bearing whatsoever to Isaiah 45 and Cyrus the Persian emperor, the topic at hand.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   20:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Tooconservative (#77)

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Obviously not. In Isaiah 45, God states bluntly that he creates evil and good. Which is obviously the case.

Can Satan create life? No.

Is the typhoid bacteria, the malaria larva, the AIDS virus - are these things life? Yes, they are. They are living things.

Satan cannot create life. God created the typhus bacteria, the AIDS virus and malaria. What are each of these things? Are they random bacteria lying around? No: they are living things designed specifically to attack a human host and live on human tissues. They create more suffering and more death among human beings than all of the earthquakes, famines and wars combined. The ultimate evil that human beings endure is being wiped out by the millions in epidemics. Epidemics are not accidents: they are the attack on the human species of living things, created anew every few years, to come and wipe out hundreds of millions, indeed billions, of human beings.

Earthquakes might be accidents, but diseases peculiar to man, that attack man through our reproductive systems, our blood and our excretory processes are designer miseries, and the only designer and creator of life in the Universe is God Almighty.

God makes these bugs to kill man. That is evil. God afflicts mankind with evil. He's not some inert being who stands aside while evil "happens". Living things do not spontaneously happen, and the devil cannot create life.

When God spoke to Moses, He told him that IF the Hebrews followed the food laws that He gave them, that HE would not afflict them with the diseases they suffered in Egypt. To be clear, God did not say that they would avoid disease, if they ate a certain way. He said that He would not sic diseases upon them. So, if the Hebrews broke kosher, it was God who was infecting their bodies with disease and killing them - not some passive agent.

God said that He creates good and evil, and the deadliest evil that afflicts all of mankind is in the form of epidemics, in which mankind dies by the millions, in agony, every year, from diseases that God created with the PURPOSE of killing mankind.

The translators of the KJV got it right: God creates good AND EVIL. God created Satan. God created malaria. God created AIDS and influenza.

God is really quite deadly to mankind - and HE KNOWS IT - which is why he sent a Savior, his Son, so that if we follow him, even though God's world will certainly kill us one way or the other, we can have confidence that it is not the end of the story, and our sorrow and pain be turned to joy. That does not mean that the sorrow and pain are not real when we are experiencing them. They are. And God creates the vehicles of that sorrow and pain and death, and then he sends those evils to attack us.

Nobody and nothing else can create life.

So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.

You spent so much time pretending that you had "gotten" me somehow that, well, everybody sees what you did.

Now, if you want to explain that God DIDN'T create Satan, or DIDN'T create malaria, or DIDN'T tell Moses that he would afflict the Israelites with disease, you can go ahead and try.

As for me, I will stand pat on the words of the KJV, because they accurately convey the obvious. Others of those translations do too: you're trying too hard to distinguish between "woe" and "evil".

In any case. there was never the slightest attempt to distract in anything I wrote. I was always direct. I asked direct questions. I answered questions asked of me. I misrepresented nothing.

You have not done the same. You won't answer questions. You have twisted yourself into a pretzel to accuse me of lying, deceit, dishonesty, manipulation.

False. I have told you exactly what I believe. I have told you why. I have given you the thought process by which I arrived at this conclusion, and I gave you proof text from the traditional Protestant Bible to make the point directly from the mouth of God. I could not possibly have been more direct, straightforward and honest.

You've had a hissy fit.

At this point we've both stated our cases. Yours is that I am a dishonest person, twisting Scripture for some nefarious purpose.

Mine is that the agreed-upon text says what is logically so, and I stand by what God said directly.

It is up to the readers to decide what they think.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Vicomte13 (#80)

Did god create evil and disease. Or are the natural wages of sin?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:14:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Tooconservative (#79)

I have no interest in your opinion on this matter that is not addressed in scripture directly.

What you mean is that you have no interest in things that are addressed in scripture directly, at least twice ("I create good and evil", and "I won't afflict you with diseases IF..."), if those things contradict your traditional opinions.

But if you're telling the truth and you have "no interest in my opinion on the matter", why do you keep writing about it?

I didn't "make up whatever I like, as usual". I didn't make up all of those quotes of Jesus. I didn't make up the quotes of YHWH to Isaiah or the Moses. Nor did I make up the biological realities of epidemics, that diseases are specific living things, and that God alone can make living things.

Those things are so, they all fit together, and it shouldn't be particularly controversial. You just hate me because I call out your political party and because I'm a Catholic, so you come unhinged when I write.

You do you. I'll do me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:14:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Vicomte13 (#80)

I'm not so sure that you are correct that God created evil as you say.

To be honest I'm not sure you are completely incorrect either.

I'll have to study more.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:17:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Vicomte13 (#82)

You stick to the king James it seems here. Though in other cases you flatly ignore it's plain words.

I'll name a few if you ask.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Vicomte13 (#82)

I'll throw this out there also. I don't believe for a minute you raised anything from the dead.

I don't know if god healed your neck or not. It is possible but to be honest I kind of doubt it.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   21:21:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, redleghunter (#80)

So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.

None of the KJV translators held the opinions you have manufactured from a flawed understanding of their translation of Isaiah. They were well-known scholars and published on many Christian topics. None were ever accused of holding such views as what you are presenting here. You seem to misunderstand the entire narrative of Isaiah.

Skimming through that tripe you just posted, it's clear you've invented some bizarre personal hyper-Calvinist Romanism. I've known a fair number of Calvinists and you go well beyond even the most hardnosed double-predestinarians Calvinists, certainly well beyond anything Calvin ever wrote in his Institutes.

There is no way that any educated Catholic layperson or priest or bishop or even that idiotic Pope Frank would endorse anything you wrote above.

If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   21:27:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: A K A Stone (#81)

Did god create evil and disease. Or are the natural wages of sin?

God created nature and its laws.

To quote the traditional statement of my beliefs: "I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things seen and unseen."

So yes, God created disease.

Bad things are the "natural" result of sin, because God made nature for it to be so. Life doesn't spontaneously arise: disease is created, and it doesn't randomly strike mankind - it is sent because of sin.

God made that clear to Moses when he said (at Exodus 15:26) "If thou will diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD they God, ..., I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians..."

And again, at Deuteronomy 7:15 "And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee: but will them upon all them that hate thee."

Pretty direct.

So "natural wages of sin"? To me, that implies that bad things just "happen" because of sin. But I see God saying (many times) that he imposes disease, calamity and suffering upon those who defy him.

And of course things like the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah are examples of God directly wiping people out, for sin.

We're all sinners, so it isn't surprising to me, anyway, that we all die.

Except in the case of little children - then the full magnitude of God's creation of noxious things comes to bear, because (unlike among the Israelites if they kept the Law), God DOES let disease and deformity ravage little children, babies.

Considering that the hairs on your head are numbered, and not a sparrow falls without the Father's consent, God's hand - as creator of these living diseases, as afflictor of them, and as knowing judge who does not lift his hand and prevent the working of these evil things on children, show the extent to which we're really and truly LOST without the Savior.

God is deadly, and he knows it. So he sent Jesus to give us a way through the valley of tears. The valley IS still full of tears, and that shadow in this valley is death. We need not FEAR the evil, because through Christ our life will be brought through to the other side - but it's BECAUSE of Christ that we need fear no evil. The evil is not imagined, and it isn't an accident.

Indeed, one thing's good is another's evil (the black/white thing). What is good for us is sure perceived as evil to the sheep whom we slaughter to eat. What the lion perceives as good, as it devours us, or what is good for the malaria larva, is evil to us.

Good and evil are "relative" in this sense. Of course, we're human, so our frame of reference is fixed, and God has said that we're worth more than sparrows - and that he cares about the sparrows. Still, it's a hard world, and God did make it that way. It's Jesus who makes it ok.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:31:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: A K A Stone (#85)

I'll throw this out there also. I don't believe for a minute you raised anything from the dead.

I don't know if god healed your neck or not. It is possible but to be honest I kind of doubt it.

I raised nothing from the dead. God raised two animals from the dead - a little lizard and a little mouse - in my hands.

God healed my neck.

It doesn't matter what you believe about it.

The reason I am stubborn about God's existence is because these things are so, so how could I deny that he exists? Let's never speak of them again. They weren't intended to persuade you or anybody else of anything. I told of them to explain WHY I can't be shaken in my certitude about God's existence by sophistry and arguments, particular from the sort of argument that says there's no proof.

Well, I have proof, so yes, God is proven - to ME. If I can't prove it to somebody else, well, that's too bad, but it's a dead letter to argue with me about the EXISTENCE of God. I know that God exists because of those things.

That's the context for my bringing them up - to answer somebody who says that I have no proof of God. I have no proof that HE is going to believe, but there's just no point in arguing with me that God doesn't exist, because I know He does directly.

Forget about my neck and the animals. Those things happened to me, and they explain my stubborn theism. They are why I wade in whenever an rlk says there is no proof of God. Yeah there is. None HE'LL listen to, but that is not really any skin off my nose, is it?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:36:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Tooconservative (#86)

If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.

I stand by what I wrote. I am confident that it is true, and that it reflect the real God, who was, who is, and who will be, who revealed himself in the Scriptures, and who reveals himself all around us all the time.

You obviously have a problem with it. It seems that you have a bunch of traditions about translations, traditions about who has the authority to decide such things, traditions about how to talk to Catholics and how to discuss religion. So many traditions.

Not seeing much based on Scripture, though. Just seeing you vent your spleen at me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:38:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: A K A Stone (#84)

You stick to the king James it seems here. Though in other cases you flatly ignore it's plain words.

I quoted YHWH from the King James, and I will quote Jesus from the King James. To me GOD is the authority, and the Bible and God are not synonymous.

I always build Biblical arguments based on God, specifically, speaking in the Bible. First Jesus, and then YHWH and Elohiym before him.

I don't build Biblical arguments based on the words of Apostles or prophets or historians, because I believe that the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God are the ones with authority, and that those words are identified in Scripture.

If somebody is conversing with me, I pay attention with interest if the person is of goodwill (I have seen no goodwill in Too Conservative for a year and half). To tell you the truth, I usually do not sense goodwill from you, but sometimes I do.

In any case, I try to converse, and there is a hermeneutic I use that is pretty consistent over the years. I have told anybody who asked WHY I believe what I believe (the miracles), and that also explains why I am particularly stubborn about what I believe - because I know, at least, that those rudiments are true - and why I'm not cowed by theological arguments or appeals to authorities that I don't recognize as real authorities.

In a similar vein, I notice the extent to which I get accused of every sin the Catholic Church has ever committed. I usually just let it roll off, without citing all of the sins of each of the other churches as well - the Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists - they're all awash in sins as hideous as the Catholics. But I don't usually engage in that because when it is done to me it's just so completely ineffective. I ignore the comment as inapplicable to anything I have done and soldier on. And I'd imagine that were I to start citing the sins of Baptists from 150 years ago, or Lutherans from 500 years ago, that my arguments would appear just as foolish as ineffective as arguments that attempt to hang the guilt of the whole Catholic Church over the centuries upon me. It's an absurdly bad argument, and completely ineffective.

It doesn't bait me much anymore either. It's just sort of pathetic.

I don't personally think that the KJV is all that. But YOU DO, so I use it in discussing things with you for YOUR sake. That's what happened here. You asked me where, I quoted Isaiah rom the KJV (and later, Moses), and Too Conservative came absolutely unglued - because his hatred for me causes him to go nonlinear.

When I was quoting Jesus calling for unity and peace among Christians, I wasn't being rhetorical. We're doing a pretty bad job of listening to him on that.

I do think that the religious difference - Catholic to whatever your denomination is - is so wide that it is not possible for you to trust me, and that it's probably best for us to go in peace and let it go.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:52:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Vicomte13 (#89)

You worship an evil God. By your own admission. And you are proud of it.

The god you worship is not the god of the Bible.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   22:01:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Vicomte13 (#90)

God is synonymous with the Bible.

The pope isn't holy. Is a deceiver. Prays to a dead sinner who isn't a virgin.

The pope contradicts god when he forbids marriage. That is why there are so many Catholic faggot.

The sins and deception of the Pope and his band of wannabe usurper is gigantic.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   22:24:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Tooconservative (#91) (Edited)

You worship an evil God.

There is only one God: Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. All things. Not some things. Not just the things I like. ALL things. God created man, and he created malaria. Who ELSE could create living things?

He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said.

He also sends us a way to achieve peace and life everlasting - by following Jesus.

Pretty simple. Pretty biblical.

If you're worshipping a different god, you're wasting your time on something that doesn't exist.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   6:51:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: A K A Stone (#92)

God is synonymous with the Bible.

The pope isn't holy. Is a deceiver. Prays to a dead sinner who isn't a virgin.

The pope contradicts god when he forbids marriage. That is why there are so many Catholic faggot.

The sins and deception of the Pope and his band of wannabe usurper is gigantic.

What is your denomination?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   6:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Vicomte13 (#93)

He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said.

You espouse a philosophy far more wicked than the double-predestinarian Calvinist types ever did.

You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church.

It's no surprise to me that your most repugnant and distorted ideas come straight from your peculiar and distorted readings of the Old Testament, that you dive back into it over and over.

It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   7:08:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Vicomte13 (#94)

My denomination is the Bible which I believe. Yours is the doctrine of men who you follow. Men who are liars and have lied about what god commanded. Such as not putting a dead sinner non virgin Mary over God.

You don't believe the Bible to be the infallible word of God. I do. My beliefs are based on it. Some of your beliefs were borrowed from it too. But the Catholic church subtracted and added to scripture. The doctrine of fallen corrupt non holy father.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   7:09:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: A K A Stone (#96) (Edited)

My denomination is the Bible which I believe.

So, your denomination is yourself. You read the Bible, you decide what it means, and what you decide it means is what God meant by it.

Got it. Let's stop. I've heard all of the anti-Catholic ranting before. Jack Chick has a whole comic book series about it. If it makes you feel good to to it, I can't stop you. I just perceive it as nasty and evil, and don't feel like playing anymore.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   8:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Tooconservative (#95)

You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church. ... It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.

Peddling? Have I asked you for money?

You have passed your judgment, loud and clear: "You are not a Christian in any meaningful sense."

Anything else?

As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   8:24:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Vicomte13 (#98)

As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.

I think they've recognized what you're peddling here.

It is you who is isolated. Orthodox Christianity has never preached your foul philosophy of worshiping a god of evil.

I think you are re-inventing gnostic philosophy by misusing the Old Testament, the most common path of heretics. You come close to embracing the ancient heresies on the demiurge.

Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   9:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Vicomte13 (#97)

Did not God say ask and you shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened. Yes I believe the Bible.

Can you admit that you aren't a Bible believer once and for all? Just be honest.

Also admit that the Catholic church preaches things that are not in the Bible.

Also please admit that some things that the Catholic church teaches are contrary to the Bible but you choose to believe men who call themself Pope instead of what is in the Bible which you consider full of errors.

Can you do that?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   10:34:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Vicomte13 (#97)

I've never really read Jack Chick except for a few lines of what redleg posted. Even that I don't think I ever read completely.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   10:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Vicomte13 (#97)

Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   10:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: A K A Stone (#102)

Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?

That particular doctrine is only about a thousand years old. It was instituted by the pope (one of the Gregory's, I think) to combat the shameless misuse by bishops and cardinals of diverting church resources to their own children. Hence the celibacy and forbidding of marriage to priests.

Of course, it was only in Europe where the rules against married priests were enforced. The European peasantry and bourgeosie seemed to crave the pale sickly effeminate virgin priests.

In Africa, by contrast, an unmarried man is not respected in society at all. So it is a very routine practice for young men in seminaries to marry prior to becoming priests. If their wives die, they cannot re-marry. Here in America, you also have Episcopalian and Anglican priests and even some Lutheran clergy who are married and convert to Roman Catholicism and they keep their wives but are similarly forbidden from remarriage if she dies.

There are supposedly around 200 married Roman priests in America. They help fill the shortage of priests in many areas.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   10:53:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Tooconservative (#99)

Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.

I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things. Both the Monsignor and the other parish priest are there, and the discussion is lively.

I'm not a heretic, at all, and what I have to say is well within the bounds of Catholicism.

You just hate me, so you scream "heretic", etc., and do not think about what I am saying.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   10:55:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#101)

I've never really read Jack Chick except for a few lines of what redleg posted. Even that I don't think I ever read completely.

We should get redleghunter to re-post "Death Cookie", a Chick classic. As I recall, it is Vic's favorite too.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   10:56:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Tooconservative (#99)

I think they've recognized what you're peddling here.

Peddling again.

Everybody I've asked to give me money, please show your hands. [crickets]

I am stating my opinion, and the bases thereof. It seems to drive you mad.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   10:56:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Vicomte13 (#104)

I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things.

So you have a sweet little bible study at the local church of Rome with the Monsignor where you all celebrate your god of evil and pray to Mary.

Lovely.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   10:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: A K A Stone (#102) (Edited)

Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?

BTW, I did not want to leave the impression that bishops, abbots, cardinals and popes were childless simply because they forbid the regular clergy (priests, nuns, monks) from marriage.

A notorious case involving children of a pope was Alexander VI, the Borgia pope. He had about a half-dozen children with his various mistresses and they were mostly each more awful than the next. They would attend the Vatican orgies and led truly scandalous lives. His daughter Lucretia was the most scandalous of all. Of course, the pope would marry off his children for political advantage to ally with other royal houses. With Lucretia, he married her off at least once, then decided he could get a better deal to whore her off to someone else, so he annulled her first marriage (convenient to be the pope, eh?) then married her off to some other poor sap. Alexander's daughter Isabella was the great-great-grandmother of Pope Innocent X, who was therefore descended in a direct line from Alexander.

Alexander would have his mistresses in phony marriages to other men so he could pretend the children weren't his. When his power grew and he felt unassailable, he openly acknowledged them as his own.

As Mel Brooks would have it, "It's good to be the king."

Wiki: List of sexually active popes

A portrait of Pope Alexander VI. Don't worry, he took advantage of every deathbed rite of Rome and was said to be very sorry for all the evil he had done deliberately throughout his life.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   12:06:44 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: A K A Stone, Liberator, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#83) (Edited)

I'm not so sure that you are correct that God created evil as you say. To be honest I'm not sure you are completely incorrect either. I'll have to study more.

We have a macro account of Creation in Genesis chapter 1. In chapter 2 we have a more mankind focused micro view.

In both chapters God communicates how He created and what He created. Evil is nowhere mentioned. Everything God created it is quote "it was good."

We don't find out about evil or "knowledge of good and evil" until later on in Genesis chapter 2. Now what could possibly a knowledge of evil if it did not already exist? Perhaps the knowledge of the pride and disobedience of the fallen angels led by Satan.

Which sets up the question. Did God create evil or create a free will situation with His created beings where they had a choice to obey and Love Him or disobey and reject Him?

Put another way..."God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him."

More Here

Not to sound like some 'cosmic love child', but it is all right there in Genesis and then again throughout the OT and fulfilled by Christ in the NT. God is Love and created us for His Glory and what better Love would there be to equip His prized creation mankind with the capacity to love as He Loves.

Yet we have been all failures and that is why Jesus Christ was promised (Genesis 3) to lift the curse as Jesus Son of God and Son of Man was the only One to show this Love of original Creation.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   13:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: redleghunter (#109)

Not to sound like some 'cosmic love child' ...

Tyranus - You are no "cosmic love child."

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-26   13:19:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: A K A Stone, Liberator, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#87)

Good and evil are "relative" in this sense.

"Good and evil" Biblically speaking is not relative but based on the absolute of God's Holiness which is revealed as His Law.

We can only scratch the surface of what this exactly means and why we have the following to ponder:

Isaiah 55: NKJV

8  “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9  “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

And then Jesus Christ proclaims thus:

John 15: NKJV

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   13:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: buckeroo (#110)

Tyranus - You are no "cosmic love child."

Thank you kind sir.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   13:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: redleghunter (#109)

In both chapters God communicates how He created and what He created. Evil is nowhere mentioned. Everything God created it is quote "it was good."

I agree. I suppose someone will be along soon to tell us that God only turned really evil as He got older.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   13:28:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, A K A Stone, Liberator, *Bible Study Ping* (#87)

So "natural wages of sin"? To me, that implies that bad things just "happen" because of sin. But I see God saying (many times) that he imposes disease, calamity and suffering upon those who defy him.

Not only to those who defy Him but to those He loves and wants to test and forge into stronger metal. A cursory review of Job shows this.

God found favor and no fault in Job but still allowed Satan to put his hand on Job for suffering.

We are now back to Isaiah 55:8-9.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   13:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: A K A Stone (#100) (Edited)

(1) Can you admit that you aren't a Bible believer once and for all? Just be honest.

(2) Also admit that the Catholic church preaches things that are not in the Bible.

(3) Also please admit that some things that the Catholic church teaches are contrary to the Bible but you choose to believe men who call themself Pope instead of what is in the Bible which you consider full of errors.

Can you do that?

I cannot admit all those things as you have put them. I will answer honestly and directly what I can admit to.

As to question 1, I believe that the Bible contains the words of God as they were revealed through the end of the First Century. I believe that God's words are recorded in the Bible, along with the words of other people. I believe that where God speaks in the Scripture and the Scripture tells you "God said", that that is true.

But - and here is where we depart in our definition of "Bible Believer" - I do not believe that God STOPPED his revelations in the First Century. I believe that he continues to reveal himself, his laws, his principles, his commandments, and other aspects of himself, to this very day. So therefore yes, I believe that the Bible contains the revealed words of Jesus and YHWH before him, up to the First Century. But no, I don't believe that the end of the Bible is the end of revelation, that God does not continue to reveal and legislate. The Bible is GOOD for instruction, but it is not the COMPLETE set of revelations. There have been more revelations from God in the past 1900 years, and those have been faithfully recorded and acted upon by the Church.

I am being honest. It's contrary to your belief. You believe that everything that God revealed is in the Bible. I do not believe that. I think God has revealed much more SINCE 96 AD, and that we know what those revelations are, and they are just as much true and binding as what was revealed before.

Which brings us to (2) Of course the Catholic Church teaches things that are not in the Bible! Mary did not have the role that God has since given her back in the First Century. Mary has been sent as God's emissary to various places around the world, revealing messages from God in the same manner that angels do. That's not in the Bible because it had not happened yet in 96 AD, when the last book was written, or in the 300s, when the books were gathered together into the Canon. God reveals things in his time, and time did not end in 96 AD.

I believe that God sent the Holy Spirit into the Church, to continue to guide men forward with timely revelations when needed. Sunday as the day of Christian worship, as opposed to the Sabbath, was not revealed in the Bible. It was made the Christian day of worship later, by the Holy Spirit.

Same thing with food laws. Where the Bible leaves off, Jesus made all foods clean but the Church, in Council at Jerusalem, backed up and ruled blood products and meat that had been strangled or offered to idols off limits.

As the Church expanded into areas where blood-based foods are a staple of existence (Scandinavia, the Steppes, East Africa) the prohibition on blood was removed by the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Church. The prohibition of eating food offered to idols was overcome by events. The Holy Spirit took the Church back to the full pure standard of Jesus: eat anything, it's all clean for you. But this is contrary to where the Bible leaves the matter. The Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem still had Jewish scruples, and still ruled blood off limits to Gentiles. The Holy Spirit later changed that final Bible rule, through the Church.

(3) I do not consider the Bible to be full of errors. It was accurate as of 96 AD. I consider it to be incomplete, because all of the revelations that God has made to the Church SINCE 96 AD are not in it.

Some things that the Church teaches are contrary to the Bible. The only one I can think of right off is the prohibition on eating blood. Another one, I suppose, is the practice of calling priests "father", which contradicts what Jesus told the Jews listening to him not to do with regards to their rabbis. I can't think of anything else offhand, but I'm sure that you have some things in mind.

I think I have answered your questions.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   13:40:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: redleghunter, Liberator (#111)

8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

So then we should not conclude that Christ is the Son of an Evil God and therefore Jesus was an Evil Savior?

If only a Monsignor could reassure us on this point...

This whole God-is-Evil bit does start to sound too much like some bit from an Austin Powers documentary about Christian theology.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   13:41:42 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: redleghunter (#114)

Not only to those who defy Him but to those He loves and wants to test and forge into stronger metal. A cursory review of Job shows this.

Yep. In the end, God kills EVERYBODY, and usually in some miserable or painful way. Those who die in their sleep may well experience the pain of their heart attack in their dreams, or may not actually BE asleep when the death throes hit them.

The process of passing from life into death is not pleasant, and God puts all of us through it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   13:41:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Tooconservative (#116) (Edited)

This whole God-is-Evil bit does start to sound too much like some bit from an Austin Powers documentary

It does sound like a fantasy novel. I don't know why you choose to write it here. I didn't say God is evil. I said God creates evil, and good. And all I was doing by saying that was QUOTING GOD!

God also created ME, and I'm not God. He created you too, and though you choose to pronounce magnificent judgment upon people, you're not God either.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   13:43:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: redleghunter (#109)

Now what could possibly a knowledge of evil if it did not already exist?

It did already exist. The serpent was there in the garden. Eve was ignorant of its evil intentions, but it had them, and it already existed.

All that the fruit did was open the eyes of Adam and Eve so that they had KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Eating the fruit did not CREATE the evil, nor cause it to suddenly spring into existence. It was already part of existence. Men were just unaware of it.

And then they were.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   13:46:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: A K A Stone (#102)

Who is right about bishops not marrying the Catholic church or the Bible?

Both.

Peter, the first Pope, was married. Many of the early Popes were married.

Clerical celibacy was not revealed by the Holy Spirit as a necessary discipline of the Church until the Middle Ages, due to specific abuses going on then that God wanted to address.

And now, it having continued through its appointed time, we come to a new era with new demands. When God decides it is time, the Holy Spirit will probably inspire the Church to change the disciplinary rule and permit married priests again in the Western Rite, and thereafter, bishops.

But until God speaks to do that, the Church must proceed under the current rule.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   13:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Tooconservative (#107)

So you have a sweet little bible study at the local church of Rome with the Monsignor where you all celebrate your god of evil and pray to Mary.

That's not a very accurate description.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   14:01:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Vicomte13 (#118)

I didn't say God is evil. I said God creates evil, and good.

So God can create a world full of Evil along with a few bits of Good and still be considered a god of love and compassion toward mankind?

Considering the murderous hypocrisies and grotesque ignorance of the church of Rome throughout its entire history, I really shouldn't be surprised that you believe such foul lies.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   14:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Vicomte13 (#121)

That's not a very accurate description.

I think it is.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   14:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Tooconservative (#122)

So God can create a world full of Evil along with a few bits of Good and still be considered a god of love and compassion toward mankind?

Considering the murderous hypocrisies and grotesque ignorance of the church of Rome throughout its entire history, I really shouldn't be surprised that you believe such foul lies.

God not only CAN create the universe and all things in it, from the Milky Way to the mountains, men, molluscs and malaria. He did so.

He kills us all, yes. And yet, he can still be considered the God and of love and compassion towards all mankind, absolutely.

Because death is not the end of anything. If it were, then God would be much harder than he really is.

Flesh is grass, and it dies hard. But the spirit in the dying flesh doesn't die with it. We die, hard, but then we wake up. It's that second chapter that makes God loving and compassionate.

Remember: He made his own only begotten son go through the arrest, beatings, trial and crucifixion. God knows what he's putting us through. And yes, in the end, in the FINAL analysis, that's a loving and compassionate God. When you're in the toils of cancer or a heart attack or dying in earthquake rubble, God's mercy seems far away. But then you close your eyes for good...and open them again on the other side, and you are like a woman who, having given birth, forgets the pain of childbirth and is overjoyed at the child. Well, if you've lived the sort of life God asked of you.

Truth is, what happens on the other side is that you are measured by the measure you used to measure others, and judged by the judgments by which you judged.

I'd say your judgment is pretty bad, all things considered, and that it will go better for you in the long haul if you stop judging harshly that which you don't understand, just because you're politically frustrated.

I say this for your own good.

As to the sins of the Catholic Church - they are as scarlet, no doubt. Tell me what denomination you belong to, and we shall judge it and you by the yardstick by which you have judged us.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   14:14:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Tooconservative (#123)

I think it is.

Because you are boiling with rage and frustration, and lashing out any way you can. It is better to shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   14:15:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, Liberator, redleghunter, buckeroo (#125)

Because you are boiling with rage and frustration, and lashing out any way you can. It is better to shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand.

You do talk very much as we know the ancient gnostics did, full of secret mystic knowledge. They also emphasized particularly these doctrines of a god of evil and a god of good. I find it quite familiar, having read Elaine Pagel's seminal study The Gnostic Gospels when it came out decades back and so your rhetoric is very familiar. It was in most respects the most common doctrinal belief with them. They also believed that they alone were the "true Christians" and that ordinary orthodox Christianity was only meant for the ignorant masses. You line up with this entire gnostic arrogance from beginning to end.

Now you want to impress us by name-dropping about your sweet little bible study with "the Monsignor". I'm sure that all sounds very good to those who don't know much about the record of the Roman Catholic church's fine clergymen in Connecticut. Why don't we discuss exactly who has been leading the Roman churches in your locale so we can decide exactly how much weight to assign to being in a bible study with a Monsignor in your fair state?

NBC: Priest Who Ran Meth Ring Sentenced to 5 Years, 2015

A suspended Connecticut Roman Catholic priest who authorities say dealt pounds of methamphetamine and bought a sex shop intending to launder his drug money will spend another three years in prison after being sentenced on Thursday.

Around 75 people were in court on Thursday to support Monsignor Kevin Wallin, 63, dubbed "Monsignor Meth" in some media reports, and the judge called it an "unprecedented" turnout for a drug trafficking sentencing.

Wallin, who has already served 28 months in jail, was sentenced to five years and five months in prison. With time served, Wallin will be in prison for three more years, followed by five years of supervised release.

"My shame remains intense. ... 'I'm sorry' does not convey the remorse I feel," Wallin said on Thursday. "The day I was arrested was a very good day."

In March, Monsignor Kevin Wallin's public defender filed a sentencing request for leniency in federal court in Hartford, citing Wallin's three decades of charitable service as well as more than 80 letters of support, including one from the late New York Cardinal Edward Egan.

"I cannot ignore your decision to infect your community with methamphetamine," Judge Alfred Covello said.

In addition to the dozens of supporters, 90 letters supporting wallin were also submitted.

Wallin pleaded guilty in 2013 to a methamphetamine conspiracy charge and agreed to a potential prison sentence of 10 to 11 years, but was asking for a sentence of no more than four years in prison, followed by a year of home confinement, 500 hours of community service and drug treatment.

"The record evidence demonstrates that Kevin Wallin is an extraordinary man whose remarkable character and acts have touched thousands of people," Wallin's public defender, Kelly Barrett, wrote in the sentencing request in March. "Kevin tragically became a methamphetamine addict. He fell from grace and did criminal wrong, but has confessed his crimes and has been working hard to atone for them."

Barrett wrote that Wallin's numerous accomplishments include serving as pastor of St. Peter's Parish in Danbury and the Cathedral Parish in Bridgeport, volunteering with a variety of community groups, helping found an AIDS ministry program, leading an inner city charity group, serving on the Danbury Cultural Commission and serving on the board of directors of Sacred Heart University.

Egan, who died in March, was bishop of the Diocese of Bridgeport from 1988 to 2000 and praised Wallin in a letter to the court.

"He was outstanding in the fulfillment of his assignments and in his concern for people in need," Egan wrote. "Father Wallin was held in highest regard as a dedicated clergyman and an outstanding citizen as well."

Federal prosecutors said Wallin committed serious crimes and most people convicted of conspiring to sell meth are sentenced to at least 10 years in prison.

Federal investigators said Wallin had associates in California send him methamphetamine beginning in late 2008 or early 2009. By 2011, Wallin's partners were sending him one to three pounds of meth a month and Wallin was running the drug operation out of his apartment in Waterbury, investigators said.

Wallin also bought the "Land of Oz & Dorothy's Place" adult video and sex toy shop in North Haven and apparently intended to launder drug proceeds that totaled in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, federal agents said in court documents.

Wallin's two accomplices in California — Chad McCluskey of San Clemente and Kristen Laschober of Laguna Niguel — were both sentenced last year to five years in prison. Two men who helped Wallin sell drugs in Connecticut also were convicted. Kenneth Devries, of Waterbury, was sentenced to more than two years in prison and Michael Nelson of Manchester awaits sentencing.

Brian Wallace, a spokesman for the Diocese of Bridgeport, previously said Wallin is still a priest, but remains suspended from public ministry.

"We're asking for prayers for him, understanding and recognizing that many people ... suffer from addiction and they lose control of their lives," Wallace said. "It's time for him to try to rebuild his life."

So your "Monsignor" isn't also a pervert meth dealer and porn peddler/money launderer like this guy? Did you or any others in your church write those letters pleading for leniency for this "Monsignor Meth" when he was sentenced? Did you or others in your church turn up to support him in court? And, BTW, admirable work for the church of Rome in Connecticut to dump Monsignor Meth once he was exposed and thereby force the public to pay for his public defender too despite the very deep pockets of the laity in Connecticut.

Lest anyone think this Monsignor Meth is just some outlier, some isolated incident in Connecticut and that I am just being mean or something, let's look a little further to find out more about the outstanding works performed by the Roman Catholic clergy of the fine state of Connecticut.

Trement, Sheldon, Robinson & Mahoney: Connecticut Priests Involved In Sexual Abuse

Priests Involved

The following 48 men are current or former priests of the Diocese of Bridgeport or the Archdiocese of Hartford, who have been sued, suspended following allegations of sexual abuse of minors, or have claims against them. This information was obtained from the Official Catholic Directory. Please note, if we are actively pursuing a case or if confidentiality agreements were assigned, that priest would not be listed. Further, we have pursued and are actively pursuing cases against not only Catholic priests, but other religious institutions/denominations and figures including nuns and other individuals associated with the church such as religious educators. Please contact us directly for further information and questions.

The Diocese of Bridgeport

Archdiocese of Hartford

I see that there are six "Monsignors" among the 48 (known) kiddie-diddling clergy so far revealed publicly in the two dioceses of Connecticut. Your own "Monsignor" isn't one of these six in the list, is he? And you should count the Monsignors for yourself since I might have miscounted, being so ignorant and all.

That's some outstanding clergy your church recruited to diddle the kiddies of Connecticut. I guess that since you have only a daughter, you figure she'll be safe from the priest and "the Monsignor". That's probably true enough.

At any rate, you can tell me patronizingly to "shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand" but let me tell you this, you arrogant deluded sonofabitch, I do understand what your clergy is and what they have done in your state. They fuck children. And you give them money. Mostly so you can enjoy sipping tea with "The Monsignor" and chatting learnedly about just how evil God is on Sunday afternoons. Maybe you should worry less about how evil God is and a lot more about how evil the goddamned priests and "Monsignors" are in your own churches in Connecticut. And your personal moral responsibility in supporting the kind of church that has institutionalized its perverted sexual assaults on children and other vulnerable persons.

Now I will shrug my shoulders.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   15:27:20 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Vicomte13 (#117)

The process of passing from life into death is not pleasant, and God puts all of us through it.

We were told if we want to follow Him we need to pick up our cross.

The death of the flesh, IMO, should have a huge ! mark.

Our King wore a crown of thorns while He sojourned on this rock called Earth. In His ministry He told His disciples they would drink from the same cup He took. So He never promised us a 'rose garden' here on the spinning rock. I think your post above alludes to this.

Why does a rose bush have such a beautiful flower and thorns?

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   16:06:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Vicomte13 (#119)

Eating the fruit did not CREATE the evil, nor cause it to suddenly spring into existence. It was already part of existence. Men were just unaware of it.

No the eating did not create evil. However, the pride leading to the disobedience was the very evil of the fall of mankind.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   16:08:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Vicomte13 (#120)

Peter was not a pope. Quit lying about him. They can't both be right what an idiotic statement.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   16:23:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Vicomte13 (#117)

God doesn't kill anyone idiot. It is a wage that sleep give ourselves. Ever talking and never listening and full of shit.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   16:25:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Vicomte13 (#120)

Your lying about some special revelation from God to people who follow him worse than Israel ever did. Hogwash.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   16:27:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Vicomte13 (#120)

Your entire post here is a load of Catholic lies that Satan is proud of.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   16:28:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: A K A Stone (#132)

Your entire post here is a load of Catholic lies that Satan is proud of.

Well, there you have it. I did what God said: I turned the other cheek. I came back in, and answered directly and mildly and truthfully, and was met with this.

Not much of a conversation, really.

Certainly nothing is good is served by continuing it.

I'm signing off this thread. Not the site, but I've had my quota of getting spit at for today.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   17:32:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Vicomte13 (#133)

Quit whining and crying. Turn the other cheek is referring to physical violence. Like if I punched you in the face. Not correcting you on scripture. You are the one adding to what is taught in the Bible not me. So don't get all bitchy because I don't go along with your doctrinal belief that the Bible is full of errors and the Catholic church can add to scripture and be believed. But we are supposed to ignore some of the book of Paul. No thanks ill stick to what the Bible actually says. You cant make forbidding of marrinng scriptural no ,matter what some mystical catholics say. That you never even explain, but want us to take on faith because you said so.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   19:44:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Vicomte13 (#133)

Certainly nothing is good is served by continuing it.

Frankly you are losing the argument. I say that because you don't use scripture usually. Sometimes you do use scripture but mostly you don't in these discussions. I'm not saying you are not saved, that isn't for me to decide. I'm saying you ignore scripture and add to it. Why is the Catholic church superior to what Jesus taught?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   19:48:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: redleghunter, justified (#135)

Care to chime in if God created evil?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   19:50:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: A K A Stone (#136)

Care to chime in if God created evil?

I will take that dance.

Yes, of course, as GOD created ALL things. Otherwise, you have a duality of GODS: GOOD vs. EVIL.

But the creator just doesn't give a damn, so your question really is laughable.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-26   19:57:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: buckeroo (#137)

Don't you worship plants and bugs?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   20:01:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: A K A Stone (#136)

Thought I pinged you here:

Post 109

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-26   20:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: A K A Stone (#138)

Don't you worship plants and bugs?

Where on Earth, did you find that silly question? Are you thinking of Animism or Hinduism or Buddhism? But how do you attribute these various philosophies to me?

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-26   20:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: redleghunter (#139)

I scanned through it earlier on my phone. I missed the best part. I believe you are correct.

How do you think you can reach people like Vic?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   20:39:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: buckeroo (#140)

You said you were a druid or some such thing. What level are you and how many hit points do you have?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-26   20:40:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: A K A Stone (#142)

You said you were a druid or some such thing.

I did? Please ensure your speculative BS is backed by evidence and not some alcoholic binge. As the chit-chat site "leader of the leadless" please cite the factually based content that you claim.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-26   20:56:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: buckeroo, A K A Stone (#143)

As LF's leading Druid spokesperson, can you offer any insight as to whether your fellow-Druids consider God to be an evil god?

[Just trying to keep things on topic here.]

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   22:57:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, TooConservative, A K A Stone, Buckeroo (#114)

["So 'natural wages of sin'? To me, that implies that bad things just 'happen' because of sin. I see God saying (many times) that he imposes disease, calamity and suffering upon those who defy him"...]

...to those He loves and wants to test and forge into stronger metal. A cursory review of Job shows this.

God found favor and no fault in Job but still allowed Satan to put his hand on Job for suffering.

We are now back to Isaiah 55:8-9.

Mind-blowing answers...that are true.

Anecdotal story:

Person A is cruising through life as everything falls into place -- handsome, healthy, wealthy, seemingly so lucky -- basically nothing "bad" ever happens to him; NO challenge. Almost "paradise-like."

In Person A's case, "God"?? Jesus? Who needs either? Who even needs to think of, consider, pray to, ponder, or investigate his calling from Him? Don't need 'em, right? With life so perfect here, Person A was assuming a lucky or "perfect" Afterlife as well. OOOOPS. Forgotten Judgment Day. And consideration of his role beyond his own selfish existence.

Person B was once Person A. UNTIL calamity happened. Due to changed circumstances, good looks, health, wealth, and life-streak of good luck suddenly became one long string of bad "luck." Mired in physical and mental misery.

Person B suddenly pondered God's role in his life out of desperation. He considered cursing God and Jesus...but instead chose to praise Him for the blessings he'd had (that were rarely if ever acknowledged.) Person B was forced to scrutinize his own life's lot and role, and make a decision...to honor, understand, and grow closer to God. Like Job. (Except Job ALWAYS acknowledged the hand and blessings of God.)

Who was actually more "blessed"? Person A or B overall?

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-27   11:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Tooconservative, buckeroo (#144)

As LF's leading Druid spokesperson, can you offer any insight as to whether your fellow-Druids consider God to be an evil god?

[Just trying to keep things on topic here.]

Lol...

Interesting question to Buck...

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-27   12:00:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: buckeroo (#137)

...You have a duality of GODS: GOOD vs. EVIL. But the creator just doesn't give a damn...

If the Game ain't Over (and you don't realize it), and you haven't taken the time or effort to reach out to the Creator, how then can you determine the degree of concern and love by the Creator?

Is it possible your attentions and presumptions are merely diversions and illusions? That the anti-Creator has played and deceived you? (Just sayin')

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-27   12:06:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, Vicomte13, TooConservative, buckeroo, RLK (#109)

(FROM RED'S LINK):

One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose.

So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

I believe these simple but provocative analogies logically addresses and solves the "mystery" or question, "DID GOD CREATE EVIL?":

Cold = Absence of Heat.

Evil = Absence of Good/God"

Moreover -- the point is also made -- IF our Creator denied Man (and Angels) the option of Free Will or Choice, then what would have God created instead? PROGRAMMED ROBOTS. Stepford Humans.

Who and how were we created instead? AND, for what purpose?:

Beings who are able to weigh, challenge, logic, discernment, purpose, risk, and choice of our own free will. WITHOUT COERCION.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-27   12:34:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Liberator (#148)

Moreover -- the point is also made -- IF our Creator denied Man (and Angels) the option of Free Will or Choice, then what would have God created instead? PROGRAMMED ROBOTS. Stepford Humans.

Good points.

But given the existence of prophecy that is fulfilled, it is clear God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make of our own free will.

So we do have all the free will in the world. But so does God. And His free will enfolds all of the free will choices we ever can or will make. So His plan for the fulfillment of His plan of creation and the salvation of His children will unfold as He desires regardless of the choices we make. We can, therefore, opt in or stay opted out which is our exercise of free will. Either way, God's will be done.

I only say this to point out that our free will does not make God a beggar at our feet nor are our choices powerful enough to frustrate any design of God's. He is, as scripture says, always willing that all men will come to Him. But if we don't, God's plan will proceed completely unchanged and unchanging. And only He knows the final outcome down to the end of Eternity. And all of our choices are already known and factored in to God's plan.

Any time we speak of our free will in spiritual matters, we have to grasp that no choice we make affects God's free will and His plan for His creation.

A lot of people don't like this, that God is omniscient to the end of time. That is because they think that God Himself is subject to the mere constraints of the space-time construct of His own creation. This is a silly idea but fairly common.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-27   13:01:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Liberator (#148)

Beings who are able to weigh, challenge, logic, discernment, purpose, risk, and choice of our own free will. WITHOUT COERCION.

WITHOUT DIRECT PHYSICAL COERCION, but living under direct implicit threat of being sent to hell for absence of worship.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-27   13:03:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Liberator (#148)

I believe these simple but provocative analogies logically addresses and solves the "mystery" or question, "DID GOD CREATE EVIL?":

Cold = Absence of Heat.

Evil = Absence of Good/God"

Where on Earth did you find your equalities that you cited above? Cold is NOT the absence of Heat.

"cold" is: the lower relative measurable temperature compared to a higher measurable temperature. This means "cold" can be ANYWHERE on the temperature spectrum from absolute zero K degrees to infinity -1 K degrees.

So, Liberator, your analogy FAILS.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-27   15:27:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: Liberator (#145)

Who was actually more "blessed"? Person A or B overall?

Indeed.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-27   17:29:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Tooconservative (#149)

Any time we speak of our free will in spiritual matters, we have to grasp that no choice we make affects God's free will and His plan for His creation.

Free will in bondage to sin and death.

Or

Free will as serving a Holy God.

I think Luther had a screed on this. :)

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-27   17:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: rlk (#150)

WITHOUT DIRECT PHYSICAL COERCION, but living under direct implicit threat of being sent to hell for absence of worship.

There's never an absence of worship. We either worship the uncreated Creator God, or something else. That something else tends to be ourselves.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-27   17:33:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: redleghunter (#154)

There's never an absence of worship. We either worship the uncreated Creator God, or something else.

What's this WE shit? Don't include me in your stupidity.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-27   17:44:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: rlk, redleghunter, Liberator (#155)

What's this WE shit? Don't include me in your stupidity.

ROTFL! These nut-balls have all the definitions. I particularly critiqued @Liberator's little nut-ball "equations" as he expressed equality or to use his words "analogies" in an earlier post.

This is just too phuny!

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-27   18:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#127)

The death of the flesh, IMO, should have a huge ! mark.

Some will bear Death's mortal mark better than others.

The truly YUGE mark will be permanent, after vacating our BioShell. Forever.

For those who reject our gentle proddings to consider God's Word, I would again remind them that THERE IS STILL TIME to humble themselves and reconsider what is a very sobering reality. God has already demonstrated His Love and Mercy AND Grace in sending a Savior, God-in-the-Flesh to die in OUR place so WE will be clean enough, pure enough BY PROXY IN JESUS CHRIST to enter His Kingdom forever.

God our Creator will not accept self-pity, resentment, nor ignorance as an excuse on Judgment Day. Nor especially man's judgment OF HIM.

Why does a rose bush have such a beautiful flower and thorns?

A lot like some women ;-)

God has also created senses of humor and irony.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   11:36:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13 (#128)

No the eating did not create evil.

However, the pride leading to the disobedience was the very evil of the fall of mankind.

Pride and especially disobedience...

...that whisper of Satan prodding Eve to become "as God" -- stealing from Him forbidden knowledge AND power IN GOD'S VERY PRESENCE.

During these Last Days we are witnessing a great revival of Occultist activities from people (many are so-called "Elites") who are also attempting to usurp the Almighty's power here on earth (while immersing themselves in full-blown rejection of the Almighty as they worship the Beast.)

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   12:04:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Tooconservative, redleghunter (#149)

...We do have all the free will in the world. But so does God. And His free will enfolds all of the free will choices we ever can or will make. So His plan for the fulfillment of His plan of creation and the salvation of His children will unfold as He desires regardless of the choices we make.

Yes. But "foreknowledge" and the table-setting in His Kingdom for isn't quite the same as restricting man's own decisions, our own free will.

He is, as scripture says, always willing that all men will come to Him. But if we don't, God's plan will proceed completely unchanged and unchanging. And only He knows the final outcome down to the end of Eternity. And all of our choices are already known and factored in to God's plan.

(In Tom Snyder's voice: "I'll go along with that, sir.")

A lot of people don't like this, that God is omniscient to the end of time. That is because they think that God Himself is subject to the mere constraints of the space-time construct of His own creation. This is a silly idea but fairly common.

Excellent point.

It's frustrating to me that some people believe God is in ANY way shape or form constrained by ANY space-time construct. As though He actually *needed* sufficient time to build...A UNIVERSE; Or, couldn't quite guide the hand of man or inspire man to write His Word, Scripture -- AND MAINTAINED IT EXACTLY AS HE WISHED.

More on Skeptics:

"Oh come on now -- if man wished to taint and corrupt the Bible over all these centuries, NOTHING could stop him."

God: *ahem*

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   12:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: rlk (#150) (Edited)

WITHOUT DIRECT PHYSICAL COERCION, but living under direct implicit threat of being sent to hell for absence of worship.

"Absence of worship" OR..."Disobedience" of His laws? And NOT being perfect?

Are there not civil penalties in this physical world for disobeying man's law? It may either be the the penalty of law that deters one, OR respect of it.

Serious question: Have you ever sinned? (And I am assuming you know the definition of "sin"...)

Q2: Would you drink a gallon of pure distilled H2O with just a single drop of toxic solvent mixed in?

The Kingdom of God is reserved ONLY for the pure. The sin-less. NO man in history has been sin-less by himself. Save for one.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   12:31:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: buckeroo (#151) (Edited)

Cold is NOT the absence of Heat.

When you're shivering at the North Pole in nothing a banana hammock (sorry for the visual, everyone), uh yeah. IT IS. "ABSENCE OF HEAT."

cold" is: the lower relative measurable temperature compared to a higher measurable temperature. This means "cold" can be ANYWHERE on the temperature spectrum from absolute zero K degrees to infinity -1 K degrees.

You know what else is relative?? EVERYTHING. (If that's the game one wants to play. Including "Good" and "Evil".)

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   12:34:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: redleghunter, rlk (#154)

There's never an absence of worship. We either worship the uncreated Creator God, or something else. That something else tends to be ourselves.

Excellent observation.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   12:37:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: rlk, redleghunter (#155) (Edited)

("There's never an absence of worship. We either worship the uncreated Creator God, or something else.")

What's this WE shit? Don't include me in your stupidity.

This "WE" shit struck a nerve I see.

Kindly Allow me to clarify...

Your prodigious work in psychology doesn't make you any more superior to others -- much less a Psychologist-demigod.

The truth of the matter is that your earthly opinions and work -- what you'd consider your "legacy" -- will eventually devolve into irrelevance, and your physical body devolves into dust. That's not "stupid," it's fact. Math. Science. Life/Death. Fair/Unfair. Whatever.

THE one thing that WILL survive the present physical dimension will be RLK's "essence," better known as your "soul" in another world of Reality.

"Stupid" is disregarding the obvious: YOU WERE CREATED. WITH PURPOSE. An author/manufacturer/creator exists. An Owners Manual exists. It explains the Creator-God's Purpose -- as well as wisdom dispensed for living in THIS world as well as the NEXT.

To believe the Almighty would create man, our sentience, and his every working cell with a purpose -- but keep man in the dark about OUR purpose here on earth in our respective lives is IL-LOGICAL.

"Wisdom" is acknowledging the Creator, respecting the Word of God, and learning/obeying His instructions for the Afterlife.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   13:03:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: buckeroo, rlk, redleghunter (#156)

ROTFL! These nut-balls have all the definitions.

And despite receiving them, you're still lost.

"Justice" in the Afterlife is not a matter of how YOU or I define it, wishful thinking, or any "Code."

Do you ever ask yourself: "Will I mind darkness eternity?" "If there is a God, was I 'good' enough to walk through Heaven's Gates?" And you'd better be more right about THIS final question and answer than any in your life. This is for ALL the marbles. There will be no "do-over."

I have been praying that you and others see the light before The End. That now said, I will no longer be expounding on the matter to you gentleman.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-28   13:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Liberator (#164)

ROTFL! These nut-balls have all the definitions.

And despite receiving them, you're still lost.

According to you, and people like you attempting to subdue rational questions with chronic threats.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-28   15:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Liberator (#160)

Serious question: Have you ever sinned?

If I have, it was a mistake and nothing I take pride in.

One of the greatest sins anyone can commit is the failure to confront irrationality.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-28   15:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: Liberator (#157)

For those who reject our gentle proddings to consider God's Word, I would again remind them that THERE IS STILL TIME to humble themselves and reconsider what is a very sobering reality. God has already demonstrated His Love and Mercy AND Grace in sending a Savior, God-in-the-Flesh to die in OUR place so WE will be clean enough, pure enough BY PROXY IN JESUS CHRIST to enter His Kingdom forever. God our Creator will not accept self-pity, resentment, nor ignorance as an excuse on Judgment Day. Nor especially man's judgment OF HIM.

Thumbs up.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-28   17:47:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Liberator (#161)

Liberator: When you're shivering at the North Pole in nothing a banana hammock (sorry for the visual, everyone), uh yeah. IT IS. "ABSENCE OF HEAT."

buckeroo: "cold" is: the lower relative measurable temperature compared to a higher measurable temperature. This means "cold" can be ANYWHERE on the temperature spectrum from absolute zero K degrees to infinity -1 K degrees.

So you chose to use the human body to measure relative temperature. But you confined your quote to "cold" as though the condition is somehow making your argument. Why didn't you use "hot?" Whether too cold or too hot, the human body will perish as there are limits to survivable temperature. Your point FAILS once again.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-28   19:09:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: Tooconservative, Liberator (#149)

A lot of people don't like this, that God is omniscient to the end of time. That is because they think that God Himself is subject to the mere constraints of the space-time construct of His own creation. This is a silly idea but fairly common.

Yes all too common.

It all goes back to Eden. They thought they knew better or "enough."

After the fall Adam and Eve fashioned their own coverings of fig leaves. Which was replaced by God's provision of animal skins.

The human effort factor of salvation has been error since Genesis chapter 3.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-28   22:40:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: rlk (#150)

WITHOUT DIRECT PHYSICAL COERCION, but living under direct implicit threat of being sent to hell for absence of worship.

Wow someone did a job on you at some point in your life.

The good news is grace and mercy.

Now of course it is not about fear to coerce someone into religious living. You are right that is probably the common denominator for man's version of religion but it is not God's design for salvation.

In group dynamics you can observe two types of performing teams. One type usually from fear and another from loyalty.

The first may get great results in the short term but is toxic. The second operates from trust and faith based on demonstrated evidence..The word matches the deed and the promise is kept.

Biblical Christianity operates from loyalty.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-28   22:49:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Liberator (#160)

Are there not civil penalties in this physical world for disobeying man's law? It may either be the the penalty of law that deters one, OR respect of it.

Bingo!

One either operates from fear or loyalty.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-28   22:52:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: redleghunter (#170)

Biblical Christianity operates from loyalty.

Biblical Christianity operates from wishful fantasy and speculation.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-28   22:59:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: rlk (#172)

Biblical Christianity operates from wishful fantasy and speculation.

I'm in awe of your two dimensional thinking. /s

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-28   23:23:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: redleghunter (#173) (Edited)

Biblical Christianity operates from wishful fantasy and speculation.

I'm in awe of your two dimensional thinking.

Is two dimensional thinking listed in the DSM or the pathology texts. Or is it a new mental diagnostic category you holy rollers made up to hide behind when you're backed into a corner?

rlk  posted on  2017-09-29   9:32:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: rlk (#174)

So you didn't support the founding fathers when they put freedom of religion in the constitution.

During the cold war did you side with the atheists in the Soviet Union or the American Christians?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-29   9:36:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: A K A Stone (#175)

During the cold war did you side with the atheists in the Soviet Union or the American Christians?

I have always been disgusted with radical socialism and communism. It is a form of highly rationalized thievery by aggressive mental defectives.

That being said, I find the logical slippage and authoritarianism among many religious people to be just as corrupt and similar to socialism/communism. They insist on beating me into submission with it because they have nothing else.

I believe in religious freedom. It does not include islam. I am religious. I strongly believe in psychoanalitic logical positivism realism and subscribe to Bushido as it originally existed. You leave me alone and I'l leave you alone. But don't come beating me over the head with baseless irrational mythology.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-29   11:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: rlk (#176)

They insist on beating me into submission with it

How so?

Maybe they see your posts on here and see you are a decent person. They or me or whoever cares about people. So perhaps it is an act of love, in wanting you to also be saved.

That doesn't make them bad does it? They really aren't beating you are they?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-29   11:10:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: rlk (#176)

I believe in religious freedom. It does not include islam.

It is not really a religion in the Western sense. It is a totalitarian cult that enforces its edicts through violence and allows no free choice about whether to leave the cult.

Islam should not be allowed to enjoy the protected status of a religion in America until this is changed demonstrably.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-29   13:55:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: rlk (#174)

Is two dimensional thinking listed in the DSM or the pathology texts. Or is it a new mental diagnostic category you holy rollers made up to hide behind when you're backed into a corner?

No Robert just an observation.

Also, very difficult to be backed into a corner when nothing is facing you. Your assertions amount to "did not" and shoulder shrugging. It is apparent you do not want to converse, and that's fine.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-29   15:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Liberator (#168)

I suppose that you don't have a response to my earlier post. You FAIL.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-09-30   10:55:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right.

In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.

Oh Vic brother in Christ. I love you but you are full of errors. Not that I know everything.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-02-13   12:11:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: A K A Stone (#181)

I love you but you are full of errors.

I don't love you. And the reason I don't is because the way you, and VxH, and Too Conservative you Christians, talk to me, and about me, is not love. It's abuse. You choose to call it love, because your religion and your god let you abuse anybody who doesn't believe the same thing you believe and call it "love".

It isn't love. It's hatred hypocritically called love - Christian love.

It has succeeded, over time, in building up a great deal of resentment, which finally reached a critical mass yesterday with VxH's attacks on my father and on me. That's Christian Love the way I have experienced.

I cede you the word. Your Christianity is a detestable, evil religion. Thank God that I am not a Christian.

Your love is not real love, it's poisonous fruit. There's no real love on display and there never has been.

Of course you hate Catholicism - children of the darkness hate the light, and people who talk like you people do are children of the darkness: I know you by your fruit.

Now, is it worth it for people who manifestly hate each other, as you three (and more) clearly hate me, and have kindled a parallel hatred back at you, to continue to converse?

Why?

It makes a whole lot more sense to walk apart.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-02-13   13:26:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Here is the other thread I mentioned

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-02-14   9:46:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Vicomte13 (#124)

He kills us all, yes

Sin kills you not God.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   8:47:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Vicomte13 (#182)

Thank God that I am not a Christian.

Matthew 10:33 King James Version (KJV) 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   8:51:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: A K A Stone (#185)

I haven't denied that Jesus is the son of God.

I categorically deny that what YOU call "Christianity" has anything to do with Jesus. Your rage and your teachings are from the Devil, expressed under the name of Christ. Your religion is an evil deception that screams and rages.

Even your book is not like that. There is much in the Bible that is good. BUt you twiat it without any goodness, and what you produce and call "Christianity" is very nearly the opposite of Christ.

So you can keep your "Christianity". I'll stick with God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   12:16:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: A K A Stone (#184)

Sin kills you not God.

Are you saying that any of us could live forever if we did not sin?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   12:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: buckeroo (#187)

There is a difference between your soul, and your physical life on this chit chat channel planet.

Dumb shit.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-06-10   13:01:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: buckeroo (#187) (Edited)

Yes. But we all sin.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   13:15:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: A K A Stone (#189)

Yes. But we all sin.

What about those that you regard as patriarchs of your religious creed such as Moses, Abraham and Jesus?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   13:19:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: GrandIsland (#188)

There is a difference between your soul, and your physical life on this chit chat channel planet.

Mankind has always wondered about immortality; The question is not simply relegated to the soul.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   13:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: buckeroo (#190)

Jesus didn't sin everyone else did. Why do you ask when you already know the answer?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   13:31:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: A K A Stone (#192)

AKA Stone sez: Sin kills you not God.

So how did Jesus die?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   13:38:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: buckeroo (#193)

He took on the sin of the world.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   13:39:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: A K A Stone (#194)

He took on the sin of the world.

So, irrespective of the source, "sin" can be a self-driven evil, correct?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   13:44:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: buckeroo (#195)

I think you are incorrect but I don't know.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   13:53:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: A K A Stone (#196)

I acknowledge your opinion. None of us know. Thanks for being objective. You get threee gold stars, today.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-10   13:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: buckeroo (#195)

irrespective of the source, "sin" can be a self-driven evil, correct?

Correct, it can be. In case of conscious premeditated intentional malice it might be, I guess, a unforgivable sin against Holy Spirit.

But we should be careful with judging people. What appears as intentional malice, might be an expression of bitterness caused by a deep wounds and confusion. Gospel has power to cure it.

A Pole  posted on  2018-06-10   14:33:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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