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Title: A Conversation With God
Source: Vicomte13, quoting Jesus a lot
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 22, 2017
Author: Jesus, mostly
Post Date: 2017-09-22 17:57:08 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 14062
Comments: 199

Greatly disturbed by what was happening here, yet not wanting to leave so many people behind after having conversed with them over so many years, I tried to work it out myself in successive posts to the board.

That only made things worse, so I walked away.

Unable to figure it out for myself I turned to God. I asked him to tell me what to say.

He answered me, saying: “Not yet. You still want to win.” So I waited. Yesterday, I started to get the answer. Here it is.

(1) I TOLD YOU TO LISTEN TO JESUS.

“You are my beloved son, in you I delight.” (Lk 3:22; Mk 1:11)

“This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight.” (Mt 3:17)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in whom my soul delights! I shall be placing my spirit on him, and he shall be reporting judging to the nations. He will not be brawling nor clamoring, nor will anyone be hearing his voice in the squares. A reed that is bruised He will not be fracturing, and flax that is smoldering he will not be extinguishing till he should ever be casting out judging for victory.” (Mt 12:20)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

And there came a cloud overshadowing them. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved. Hear him!” (Mk 9:7)

While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I delight. Hear him!" (Mt 17:5)

Ok, I’m listening. What does Jesus say?

(2) FOLLOW JESUS.

"What are you seeking?".. "Come and see." (Jn 1:38-39)

"Follow me.” (Jn 1:43)

"Follow me!" (Mk 2:14)

"Follow me." (Lk 5:27)

"Follow me!" (Mt 9:9)

"Follow me!" (Lk (9:59)

"Hither! After me, and I will make you become fishers of men!" (Mk 1:17)

"Hither! After me, and I will be making you fishers of men!" (Mt 4:19)

"Be following me, and leave the dead to entomb their own dead." (Mt 8:22)

“…And hither! Follow me.” (Lk 18:22)

“…And hither! Follow me, picking up the cross." (Mk 10:21)

And hither! Follow Me." (Mt 19:21)

"Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow me, in the renascence whenever the son of mankind should be seated on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)"

"Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in me. (Jn 14:1)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through me. (Jn 14:6)

“The spirit of the Lord is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon and to the blind the receiving of sight: to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon. (Lk 4:18)

“Hither to me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will give you rest. Lift My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light." (Mt 11:28-30)

“It is written in the prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning truth, is coming to me.” (Jn 6:45)

"My teaching is not mine, but His who sends me. If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from myself. He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet he who is seeking the glory of Him who sends him, this one is true, and injustice is not in him.” (Jn 7:16-18)

"If anyone should be serving me, let him be following me, and where I am, there my servant also shall be. And if anyone should be serving me, the Father shall be honoring him. (Jn 12:26)

"He who is believing in me is not believing in me, but in him who sends me.” (Jn 12:44)

"I am the light of the world. He who is following me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life." (Jn 8:1)

To Pontius Pilate: "You are saying that I am a king. For this also have I been born, and for this have I come into the world, that I should be testifying to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth us hearing my voice." (Jn 18:37) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.” (Rv 22:13)

Ok, Lord. You could not possibly have made that any clearer. You’ve really beaten that one in – I am to follow Jesus. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, and nobody comes to the Father except through him. Got it. But what does following Jesus MEAN?

(3) KEEP JESUS' COMMANDMENTS!

"It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" (Mt 4:4)

"It is written that, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration of God.'" (Lk 4:4)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mt 16:24)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mk 8:34)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his cross daily and follow me. (Lk 9:23)

"Now why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord,' and not doing what I say? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Lk 6:46-49)

“Not everyone saying to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in your name that we prophesy, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many powerful deeds?’ And then shall I be avowing to them that I never knew you! Depart from me, workers of lawlessness! (Mt 7:21)

"Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who is hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great." (Mt 7:24-27)

“And he who is not taking his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38)

“The spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who are not believing." (Mt10:63-64)

"If ever you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be-making-you-free" (Jn 8:31-32)

"And if ever anyone should be hearing my declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. He who is repudiating me and not getting my declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which 1 speak, that will be judging him in the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48)

“You are shouting to me ‘Teacher!' and 'Lord!', and you are saying ideally, for I am. If, then, I, the Lord and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet. 15 For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing. Verily, verily, I am saying to you, A slave is not greater than his lord, neither is an apostle greater than he who sends him. If you are aware of these things, happy are you if you should be doing them!” (Jn 13:13-17)

He who has My commandments and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he. who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him.''

“If anyone should be loving me, he will be keeping my word, and my Father will be loving him, and we shall be coming to him and making an abode with him. …He who is not loving me, is not keeping my words. And the word which you are hearing is not mine, but the Father's who sends me.” (Jn 14:21, 23- 34)

"I am the true grapevine, and My Father is the farmer. Every branch in me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit. He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit….Remain in me, I also am in you. According as the branch cannot be bringing forth fruit from itself, it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in me. I am the grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone should not be remaining in me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned. If ever you should be rernaining.in me and my declarations should be remaining in you, whatever you should be wanting, request, and it will be occurring to you. In this is my Father glorified, that you rnay be brlnglng forth much fruit, and you shall become my disciples. According as the Father loves me, I also love you. Remain in My love. If ever you should be keeping my commandments, you will be remaining in my love, according as I have kept the commandments of my Father and am remaining in His love.” (Jn 15:1-2, 4-10)

“You are my friends if you should be doing whatever I am directing you.” (Jn 15:14)

Ok. Got it. To follow Jesus MEANS doing what he said, keeping his commandments, understanding that what HE said came from YOU, and are the commandments by which we are to live. You know my predicament here. What commandments of Jesus apply? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to say!

(4) THIS.

"But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. (Lk 6:27-29)

“Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the most high, for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. (Lk 6:35)

"Become, then, merciful, according as your Father also is merciful.” (Lk 6:36)

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” (Mt 5:7)

“And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted; be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together. And running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again.” (Lk 6:37-38)

“Do not judge, lest you may be judged, for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

“And according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them” (Lk 6:31)

“All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 5:12)

"The blind cannot guide the blind. Will not both be falling into a pit?” (Lk 6:39)

“Now why are you observing the mote in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your own eye you are not considering? Or how can you be saying to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote in your eye,' observing not, yourself, the beam in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote in your brother’s eye.” (Lk 6:41-42)

45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking.” (Lk 6:45)

"You hear that it was declared to the ancients, 'You shall not murder.' Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.” (Mt 5:21-14)

“Thus, then, you be praying: 'Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name…And remit to us our debts, as we also remit those of our debtors.” (Mt 6:9,12)

“For if you should be forgiving men their offenses, your heavenly Father also will be forgiving you. Yet if you should not be forgiving men their offenses, neither will your Father be forgiving your offenses.” (Mt 6:14-15)

"Simon, I have something to say to you." ..."Two debtors paying usury were owing a certain creditor. The one owed five hundred denarii, yet the other fifty. Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." Jesus said, "Correctly do you decide." Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Are you observing this woman? I entered into your house; water for my feet you do not give, yet she rains tears on my feet and with her hair she wipes them off. A kiss to me you do not give, yet she, from the time I entered, did not intermit fondly kissing my feet; with oil my head you do not rub, yet she with attar rubs my feet; on behalf of which, I am saying to you, pardoned are her many sins, for she loves much. Now to whom there is scant pardoning, there is scant loving." (Lk 7: 40-47)

"You hear that it was declared, 'An eye for an eye,' and 'A tooth for a tooth.' Yet I am saying to you not to withstand a wicked person, but anyone who slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And he who wants to sue you and obtain your tunic, leave him your cloak also. And anyone who conscripts you one mile, go with him two. To him who requests you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, you may not tum.” (Mt 38-42)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9)

"Beware what you are hearing! With what measure you are measuring, it will be measured to you, and it will be added to you. For he who has, it shall be given to him; and he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him." (Mk 4: 24-25)

“Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering? Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye, and lo! the beam is in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.” (Mt 5:3-5) “You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet 1 am saying to you. Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your, heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:43-48)

"Either make the tree ideal and its fruit ideal, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known.” (Mt 12:33)

Perfect, Lord? Be perfect?

(5) YES.

Then, approaching, Peter said to Him, "Lord, how many times shall my brother he sinning against me and I shall be pardoning him? Till seven times?"[Jesus replied]... "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven. Therefore likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who wants to settle accounts with his slaves. Now, at his beginning to settle, one debtor was brought to him who owed ten thousand talents. Now, at his not having wherewith to pay, the lord orders him to be disposed of, and his wife and children and all, whatever he has, and payment to be made. Falling down, then, that slave worshiped him, saying, Lord, be patient with me, and I will pay you all! Now, having compassion, the lord of that slave dismisses him, and remits his loan. Yet, coming out, that slave found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him a hundred denarii, and, holding him, he choked him, saying, 'Pay, if you are owing anything!" Falling down, then, his fellow slave entreated him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you all!' Yet he would not, but, coming away, he casts him into jail, till he may pay what he is owing. Then his fellow slaves, perceiving what is occurring, were tremendously sorry and coming, they elucidate to their lord all that is occurring. Then his lord, calling him to him, is saying to him, 'Wicked slave! That entire debt I remit to you, since you entreat me. Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?' And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he mav pay all he is owing him. Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts.” (Mt 18:21-35)

"Whenever you may be praying, be saying, 'Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name! Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also…And pardon us our sins, for we ourselves also are pardoning everyone who is owing us."(Mt 11:2,4)

"Blessed indeed, then, are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!" (Mt 11:28

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

“Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him. And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying '1 am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him." (Lk 17:3)

“And whenever you may be standing praying, be forgiving, if you have anything against anyone, that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may be forgiving you your offenses. Now if you are not forgiving, neither will your Father Who is in the heavens be forgiving your offenses." (Mk 11:26)

"A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35)

"This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12)

“In these things I am directing you, that you may be loving one another.” (Jn 15:17)

“These things have I spoken to you that in me you may have peace…” (Jn 16:33)

“Peace to you!” (Jn 20:19)

“Now this He is saying Who is holding the seven stars in his right hand. Who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: ‘I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you cannot bear evil men, and you try those saying that they thernselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false; and you have endurance, and you bear because of my name, and are not wearied. But I have against you that you leave your first love. Remember, then, whence you have fallen, repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting.” (Rv 2:5)

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation. Blessed are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the log of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.” (Rv 22:14)

I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again. Given all of the above, what I can I do but apologize – to all of those here to whom I have shown smugness and arrogance and condescension – to paraclete and Liberator, and byeltsin; and to those to whom I have played the game of “eye-for-an-eye” – Mr White and others I do not remember by name, but I know there have been many, perhaps all.

And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right.

In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.

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#23. To: buckeroo (#16)

Did God show you in the form of a vision

It didn't feel like a vision. I thought I was physically there. Maybe I was. In any case, it was a full-body experience.

Obviously you aren't really interested, so let's not talk about it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:11:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: rlk (#19)

The secondary advantage it gives to you is the capacity to bring toads and lizards back to life It's all you have.

I didn't bring anything back to life. God did. It was an anole lizard and a tiny mouse.

Actually, I have been blessed in just about as many ways as a human being can be blessed. A great deal has been given to me, and I am very appreciative of all of it.

As far as it grants me unimpeachable authority to speak? Obviously not. I spoke like an arrogant ass for a good long time, and God spanked me even as I prepared this thread.

I do have the ability to say what I have seen and heard, and I am not embarrassed to do so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: rlk (#21)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real.

I was not asleep in any of the cases of which I have spoken. These experiences were not dreams.

They are, as you have put it, psychotic hallucinations, or they are real. I know them to be real, and I speak of them as real, because they are.

I do not claim that they give me unimpeachable authority. I do state that they make my belief in God unshakeable. I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Just because there exists a powerful being capable of reading my thoughts and manipulating my physical body does not mean, perforce, that that force is benign. It could be malign. I have faith that it is benign, not malign, in my case.

None of this is intended to convince you to believe anything I say. I IS intended to tell you, directly, that you are wrong in believing that God does not exist. He does. You don't know it now because you have not yet seen.

You will.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:19:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: rlk (#21)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real. I've had dreams where I have seen people I haven't seen for real in 20 years.

Did you owe them money?

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-23   21:35:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Amen.

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-23   21:38:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#23) (Edited)

I thought I was physically there. Maybe I was. In any case, it was a full-body experience.

Great! A full body experience! Now we're into excapist mystical hippie drug talk. I sure can't penetrate that.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:15:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: redleghunter (#27)

I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Amen.

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

you are wrong in believing that God does not exist.

I don't argue that God does not exist. I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

In Alexander Pope's words, "Presume thy self not God to scan. The proper study of mankind is man."

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: rlk (#29)

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-24   1:46:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

My favorite quote here.

BTW, very good thread. Hopefully it will humble some people here.

goldilucky  posted on  2017-09-24   2:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.(John 11:25-27)

redleghunter  posted on  2017-09-24   14:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: rlk (#28) (Edited)

I have never used illegal drugs in my life. I do not take any legal prescription medicines. I have never had any mind-altering drugs prescribed at any time in my life, other than a week of Percocet, twice, when I had really bad sprained ankles.

So no drugs are, or ever have been involved in my life.

I was not drunk nor do I have a regular habit of alcohol consumption. A glass or two of wine at family dinners on the weekends, and maybe a glass of rum when I have some around is about the extent of it.

I can count the number of times I have been drunk in my life on two hands, because I can identify the specific instances and remember each. So no, there isn't alcohol at work here either.

You're going to have to diagnose full psychotic hallucinations, in an otherwise fully functional, intelligent person, with no history of drug or alcohol abuse. And then you're going to to have to have these psychotic hallucinations produce generally positive results in the life of the individual - a very positive psychosis.

You should write it up and publish it, your fellow mental health professionals would no doubt find a case of positive psychosis an interesting exception to the general rule.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   15:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: rlk (#29)

People lost on the desert trust the illusion of distant mirages.

There are no deserts in New England.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:00:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: rlk (#30)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:01:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: goldilucky (#32)

BTW, very good thread. Hopefully it will humble some people here.

As the passages were coming together for me, it was clear to me that I needed a lot of humbling.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: redleghunter (#31)

The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Now remember that in Hebrew and in Greek, wind and spirit and breath are the same word - Ruach in Hebrew, Pneuma in Greek.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:04:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#36) (Edited)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

World history says I'm correct. It consists primarily of a record of innocent people being killed or enslaved by never-ending assholes.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   17:41:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: rlk, Vicomte13, redleghunter (#39)

World history says I'm correct [in that there is no evidence of God.]

"World history"?? As in, "According to the written word of man, there is no God"? From which source(s) would that be?

It [World History] consists primarily of a record of innocent people being killed or enslaved by never-ending assholes.

Though true to a great degree, are you suggesting that evil behavior has indeed provided irrefutable evidence that God does NOT exist?

OR in the alternative -- are you suggesting that IF God *does* exist (as a great deal of "World History" unequivocally claims), He would intervene upon those who engage in evil acts?

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-24   19:03:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: rlk (#30)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

The follies of mankind are guided by what is referred to as "free will." That is not to say that God dis-concerns himself or ignores His earthly creation or prayers of man as a rule. Far too many people have given testimony that He DID and DOES answers prayers. One prayer He can NOT grant is Everlasting Life in THIS world, this physical dimension.

Do you suggest God intercede upon man's free will?; Do so partially or fully? But...might that kind of "intercession" upon our individual will be considered coercive?

WOULD God demonstrate His concern by emerging in the flesh, in THIS world? Then declaring a moratorium upon ending all death, suffering, sickness, and sickness? COULD he do it? Of course. Have you considered there's a reason that this is not His Plan?

Should He have created a Paradise on Earth? SOME "World History" has claimed He did....But due to man's Free Will he chose his own lot.

Did it occur to you that it is man's "free will" that has caused our own death, dying, and sickness in the first place? Yes, that is indeed a "World History" written by others you've chosen to dispel and dismiss. (Of your own free will of course.)

Man's Fall is well documented as you well know.

It is also left up to man to seek and find a resolution. Of our own Free Will.

In Alexander Pope's words, "Presume thy self not God to scan. The proper study of mankind is man."

Why presume the words of a self-deifying fool and liar provide wisdom and truth?

For an infinitely better and proper source for the study, truth, and wisdom of and for mankind's benefit, 'Proverbs' and 'Ecclesiastes' are worthy of a Full Scan.

NOT believing in a Creator-God and His Purpose is...Il-logical. As is the notion that God left us NO Instructions for THIS life as well as for access to the NEXT. He did. Only by seeking and finding through our own Free Will shall we do so.

Simply ask Him to show you the way.

Over and out.

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-24   20:15:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Liberator (#40) (Edited)

Though true to a great degree, are you suggesting that evil behavior has indeed provided irrefutable evidence that God does NOT exist?

I'm only backing up what I originally asserted. If he exists, God does not intervene in the lives and activities of mankind. When you are born into this world it is up to you to take your best grip on life and run with it as long as it lasts. God will not intervene on your behalf. He is a distant uninvolved figure. You don't like to hear or see that.

I don't blame you for not liking that on a child's level. Unfortunately, as adults that's what we have to live with.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   23:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Liberator (#41)

One prayer He can NOT grant is Everlasting Life in THIS world, this physical dimension.

You mean DOES not. If he CAN not then he isn't God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Liberator (#41)

Have you considered there's a reason that this is not His Plan?

The caterpillar is not intended to remain as a larva forever, but is destined to a butterfly. It doesn't know what awaits it on the other side of the chrysalis. But God does.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:03:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: rlk (#39)

It consists primarily of a record of innocent people

Who after early childhood is innocent?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   7:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rlk (#42)

There is really no evidence that God doesn't exist.

That is telling about you.

That means you are a pessimist.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:27:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Vicomte13 (#36)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

You take two contrary positions.

You also said the following.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

So you're right - I have absolutely no belief at all that Christ will reach down from heaven and protect Christians from any diseases, or marauding enemies, or starvation, or natural disaster - because he DOESN'T protect us from any of things, and never said he would. Our reward for staying true to him is found on the other side, in the afterlife, not HERE.

If you have diabetes here, praying to Christ will keep you faithful to him to the end and win you the afterlife, but you're still going to lose your foot in THIS life, because Christ isn't going to lift a finger to protect you from the natural law, or from the marauding of other men. You have to help yourself in this life - Christ holds out the promise of happiness in the afterlife if, in the process of helping yourself in this one you don't do great evil, and you remember him and try to do what he said. That's the deal.

That Christ substitutes for human government in this life is impiety. It is ignoring what he really said, and adding nonsense to it that he never said.

Christ will not govern your country. He won't save you from malaria, or hurricanes, or earthquakes, or Nazis. He will have compassion on you, and receive your soul when they kill you, but he won't stop them from killing you, he won't drive off your diseases if you drink contaminated water, and he won't make hurricane Irma spare your life. He might on a one-off basis, but Christians at large get no pass, at all, from natural law.

Christ's deal is not about here.

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=52686&Disp=14#C14

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: A K A Stone (#47) (Edited)

You take two contrary positions.

Apparently.

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

On the other hand,, God CAN do it - certainly - because here and there he has done it. God is CAPABLE, certainly, of routinely healing everybody all the time, and of sending down manna from heaven so that we don't have to struggle to eat.

One might ask that, since God CAN reach down and just fix us all and feed us all, why he DOESN'T routinely do it.

I believe that the answer to that is found in the Scriptures. God acknowledges that these needs exist - indeed the economics of the world were set up by him to be the way that it is. But in both testaments he has placed the burden of taking care of the needs of men primarily upon men.

We are to take care of each other. God can, and sometimes does, intervene in individual cases. But God is not a replacement for a health care system or a welfare system for poverty relief, because he has told us he WANTS US to take care of each other (which requires us to privilege other human beings' needs over our personal desire to accumulate wealth and place our security in that wealth).

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true. God DOES sometimes grant individual miracles. But we cannot rely on miracle to replace our obligation to provide medical care and charity, for those are the primary way that God takes care of us - through the agency of one another.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   8:47:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#48)

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true.

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   12:31:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: A K A Stone (#47)

Christ's deal is not about here.

But I live here. I can not expect any more justice or consideration in the next life than I receive here from hypothetical all powerful all-knowing authorities.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-25   12:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Tooconservative (#49)

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

White is black, or black is white, depending on how you look at it, yes.

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

So yes, white is black, and black is white, if you look at it a certain way. Absolutely.

There's nothing wrong with looking straight at the complexity of reality.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   13:14:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   13:28:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Tooconservative (#52)

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

No. I directly addressed the point that you made.

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

And I stand by what I said in answer to AKA Stone's question.

Fact: Christian people faced with calamity, horror, death and illness the world over pray in desperation to God all the time.

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

It is a demonstrable fact that God simply does not dispense miracles on call in order to provide social welfare to the world on a daily basis. He does not do it, and we can all see it. He did call for us men to provide the relief to our neighbors. He told us not to pile up wealth, but to use it to help others. So he did provide a way that - if obeyed - is the standard way by which human suffering on a grand scale is relieved.

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us. Prayer is not a substitute for social welfare. Social welfare provided at the instruction of Christ is the way that God has said to answer that need.

BUT it is also true that God does, sometimes, reach down to individuals and perform stunning miracles. This is also a fact.

So, he does demonstrate that he IS, and he CAN, but no, we cannot RELY on that instead of doing what he said and providing the help ourselves.

That's what I said. I've repeated it now.

You desire to pull me off that, but I'm not inclined to get distracted. What I said is clear, and it is true.

I assume you're attacking again and again because you don't know what else to do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:30:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: All (#53)

The best thing to do at this point is to go back to the well and ask Jesus what he has to say about these things.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#53)

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

Black is white, and white is black?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:20

You're two for three on this thread in just the last dozen posts.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   14:36:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Tooconservative (#55) (Edited)

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Black is the absence of all light and the presence of all pigment. White is the presence of all light and the absence of all pigment.

Who is putting darkness for light or light for darkness? One has to know of what it is one speaks. If you speak of light, then the absence of it is darkness, and the presence of all colors of it is white light. If you speak of pigment, then the presence of it is black. Whether what you speak of is white or black depends on the frame of reference, obviously.

Are you trying to use semantics to deny physics?

Because you do this, play these games, what one ends up with from you is mere sophistry.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   15:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#53)

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us.

The devil is the tempted not God. It seems to me you are attributing Satan's characteristics and saying it is God.

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

I don't know if everything you said is a fact.

First off God does n hear everyone's prayers. I think I'm correct there.

Secondly you don't know if they are sincere or not.

Why do you think God answered your prayer but pretty much ignores 99.99999 percent of the other prayers.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Vicomte13 (#56)

So let me get this straight. Black is white and light is dark. If someone denies that they are denying physics. Ok so here is the question.

Since God is the light and satan is the darkness does that mean they are the same or just different sides of the same coin?

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: A K A Stone (#57)

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

Obviously those things are true.

But God said that he is the creator of both good and evil. The Father is more remote from us, and creates both us and the viruses that kill us, and provides for both of us.

Jesus is OUR champion, the divine human the Father sent for us to follow through a world filled with obstacles that He created for His reasons - including disease and calamity, and Satan himself, all of whom are also creations of God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Vicomte13 (#60)

Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, orthodoxa (#60)

Jesus came to give life and give it more abundantly.

He said the devil came st steal kill and destroy.

I just wanted to get the quote better.

Anyhow didn't god in the Bible tell us that he doesn't tempt us?

That would contradict your earlier statement.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: rlk (#50)

Christ's deal is not about here.

That was a quote from Vic that I disagree with.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:09:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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