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Title: A Conversation With God
Source: Vicomte13, quoting Jesus a lot
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 22, 2017
Author: Jesus, mostly
Post Date: 2017-09-22 17:57:08 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 38827
Comments: 199

Greatly disturbed by what was happening here, yet not wanting to leave so many people behind after having conversed with them over so many years, I tried to work it out myself in successive posts to the board.

That only made things worse, so I walked away.

Unable to figure it out for myself I turned to God. I asked him to tell me what to say.

He answered me, saying: “Not yet. You still want to win.” So I waited. Yesterday, I started to get the answer. Here it is.

(1) I TOLD YOU TO LISTEN TO JESUS.

“You are my beloved son, in you I delight.” (Lk 3:22; Mk 1:11)

“This is my son, the beloved, in whom I delight.” (Mt 3:17)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in whom my soul delights! I shall be placing my spirit on him, and he shall be reporting judging to the nations. He will not be brawling nor clamoring, nor will anyone be hearing his voice in the squares. A reed that is bruised He will not be fracturing, and flax that is smoldering he will not be extinguishing till he should ever be casting out judging for victory.” (Mt 12:20)

And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is my son, the chosen; Listen to him." (Lk 8:35)

And there came a cloud overshadowing them. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved. Hear him!” (Mk 9:7)

While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my son, the beloved in whom I delight. Hear him!" (Mt 17:5)

Ok, I’m listening. What does Jesus say?

(2) FOLLOW JESUS.

"What are you seeking?".. "Come and see." (Jn 1:38-39)

"Follow me.” (Jn 1:43)

"Follow me!" (Mk 2:14)

"Follow me." (Lk 5:27)

"Follow me!" (Mt 9:9)

"Follow me!" (Lk (9:59)

"Hither! After me, and I will make you become fishers of men!" (Mk 1:17)

"Hither! After me, and I will be making you fishers of men!" (Mt 4:19)

"Be following me, and leave the dead to entomb their own dead." (Mt 8:22)

“…And hither! Follow me.” (Lk 18:22)

“…And hither! Follow me, picking up the cross." (Mk 10:21)

And hither! Follow Me." (Mt 19:21)

"Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow me, in the renascence whenever the son of mankind should be seated on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)"

"Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in me. (Jn 14:1)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through me. (Jn 14:6)

“The spirit of the Lord is on me, on account of which he anoints me to bring the good news to the poor. He has commissioned me to heal the crushed heart, to herald to captives a pardon and to the blind the receiving of sight: to dispatch the oppressed with a pardon. (Lk 4:18)

“Hither to me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will give you rest. Lift My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light." (Mt 11:28-30)

“It is written in the prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning truth, is coming to me.” (Jn 6:45)

"My teaching is not mine, but His who sends me. If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from myself. He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet he who is seeking the glory of Him who sends him, this one is true, and injustice is not in him.” (Jn 7:16-18)

"If anyone should be serving me, let him be following me, and where I am, there my servant also shall be. And if anyone should be serving me, the Father shall be honoring him. (Jn 12:26)

"He who is believing in me is not believing in me, but in him who sends me.” (Jn 12:44)

"I am the light of the world. He who is following me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life." (Jn 8:1)

To Pontius Pilate: "You are saying that I am a king. For this also have I been born, and for this have I come into the world, that I should be testifying to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth us hearing my voice." (Jn 18:37) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.” (Rv 22:13)

Ok, Lord. You could not possibly have made that any clearer. You’ve really beaten that one in – I am to follow Jesus. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, and nobody comes to the Father except through him. Got it. But what does following Jesus MEAN?

(3) KEEP JESUS' COMMANDMENTS!

"It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" (Mt 4:4)

"It is written that, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration of God.'" (Lk 4:4)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mt 16:24)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow me. (Mk 8:34)

"If anyone is wanting to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his cross daily and follow me. (Lk 9:23)

"Now why are you calling me 'Lord, Lord,' and not doing what I say? Everyone coming to me and hearing my words and doing them - I shall be intimating to you whom he is like. He is like a man building a house, who digs and deepens, and places the foundation on a rock. Now, at an inundation occurring, the river bursts through to that house, and it is not strong enough to shake it, because it is ideally built. Now he who hears, and does not, is like a man building a house on the earth without a foundation, to which the river bursts through, and straightway it collapses; and the crash of that house came to be great." (Lk 6:46-49)

“Not everyone saying to me ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in your name that we prophesy, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many powerful deeds?’ And then shall I be avowing to them that I never knew you! Depart from me, workers of lawlessness! (Mt 7:21)

"Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of mine and is doing them shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who is hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great." (Mt 7:24-27)

“And he who is not taking his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.” (Mt 10:38)

“The spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who are not believing." (Mt10:63-64)

"If ever you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be-making-you-free" (Jn 8:31-32)

"And if ever anyone should be hearing my declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. He who is repudiating me and not getting my declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which 1 speak, that will be judging him in the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48)

“You are shouting to me ‘Teacher!' and 'Lord!', and you are saying ideally, for I am. If, then, I, the Lord and the Teacher, wash your feet, you also ought to be washing one another's feet. 15 For an example have I given you, that, according as I do to you, you also may be doing. Verily, verily, I am saying to you, A slave is not greater than his lord, neither is an apostle greater than he who sends him. If you are aware of these things, happy are you if you should be doing them!” (Jn 13:13-17)

He who has My commandments and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he. who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him.''

“If anyone should be loving me, he will be keeping my word, and my Father will be loving him, and we shall be coming to him and making an abode with him. …He who is not loving me, is not keeping my words. And the word which you are hearing is not mine, but the Father's who sends me.” (Jn 14:21, 23- 34)

"I am the true grapevine, and My Father is the farmer. Every branch in me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit. He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit….Remain in me, I also am in you. According as the branch cannot be bringing forth fruit from itself, it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in me. I am the grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone should not be remaining in me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned. If ever you should be rernaining.in me and my declarations should be remaining in you, whatever you should be wanting, request, and it will be occurring to you. In this is my Father glorified, that you rnay be brlnglng forth much fruit, and you shall become my disciples. According as the Father loves me, I also love you. Remain in My love. If ever you should be keeping my commandments, you will be remaining in my love, according as I have kept the commandments of my Father and am remaining in His love.” (Jn 15:1-2, 4-10)

“You are my friends if you should be doing whatever I am directing you.” (Jn 15:14)

Ok. Got it. To follow Jesus MEANS doing what he said, keeping his commandments, understanding that what HE said came from YOU, and are the commandments by which we are to live. You know my predicament here. What commandments of Jesus apply? What do you want me to do? Tell me what to say!

(4) THIS.

"But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you. Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you. To him who is beating you on the cheek, be tendering the other also. And you should not be preventing him who is taking away your cloak from taking your tunic also. (Lk 6:27-29)

“Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the most high, for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. (Lk 6:35)

"Become, then, merciful, according as your Father also is merciful.” (Lk 6:36)

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” (Mt 5:7)

“And be not judging, and under no circumstances may you be judged; and be not convicting, and under no circumstances may you be convicted; be releasing, and you shall be released; be giving, and it shall be given to you: a measure ideal, squeezed down and shaken together. And running over, shall they be giving into your bosom. For the same measure with which you are measuring will be measured to you again.” (Lk 6:37-38)

“Do not judge, lest you may be judged, for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

“And according as you are wanting that men may be doing to you, you also be doing to them” (Lk 6:31)

“All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mt 5:12)

"The blind cannot guide the blind. Will not both be falling into a pit?” (Lk 6:39)

“Now why are you observing the mote in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your own eye you are not considering? Or how can you be saying to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote in your eye,' observing not, yourself, the beam in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote in your brother’s eye.” (Lk 6:41-42)

45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is good, and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure of his heart is bringing forth that which is wicked, for out of the superabundance of the heart his mouth is speaking.” (Lk 6:45)

"You hear that it was declared to the ancients, 'You shall not murder.' Yet whoever should be murdering shall be liable to the judging. Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you, leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.” (Mt 5:21-14)

“Thus, then, you be praying: 'Our Father, who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name…And remit to us our debts, as we also remit those of our debtors.” (Mt 6:9,12)

“For if you should be forgiving men their offenses, your heavenly Father also will be forgiving you. Yet if you should not be forgiving men their offenses, neither will your Father be forgiving your offenses.” (Mt 6:14-15)

"Simon, I have something to say to you." ..."Two debtors paying usury were owing a certain creditor. The one owed five hundred denarii, yet the other fifty. Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven." Jesus said, "Correctly do you decide." Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Are you observing this woman? I entered into your house; water for my feet you do not give, yet she rains tears on my feet and with her hair she wipes them off. A kiss to me you do not give, yet she, from the time I entered, did not intermit fondly kissing my feet; with oil my head you do not rub, yet she with attar rubs my feet; on behalf of which, I am saying to you, pardoned are her many sins, for she loves much. Now to whom there is scant pardoning, there is scant loving." (Lk 7: 40-47)

"You hear that it was declared, 'An eye for an eye,' and 'A tooth for a tooth.' Yet I am saying to you not to withstand a wicked person, but anyone who slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And he who wants to sue you and obtain your tunic, leave him your cloak also. And anyone who conscripts you one mile, go with him two. To him who requests you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, you may not tum.” (Mt 38-42)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9)

"Beware what you are hearing! With what measure you are measuring, it will be measured to you, and it will be added to you. For he who has, it shall be given to him; and he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him." (Mk 4: 24-25)

“Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering? Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye, and lo! the beam is in your eye? Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.” (Mt 5:3-5) “You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet 1 am saying to you. Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your, heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:43-48)

"Either make the tree ideal and its fruit ideal, or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known.” (Mt 12:33)

Perfect, Lord? Be perfect?

(5) YES.

Then, approaching, Peter said to Him, "Lord, how many times shall my brother he sinning against me and I shall be pardoning him? Till seven times?"[Jesus replied]... "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven. Therefore likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who wants to settle accounts with his slaves. Now, at his beginning to settle, one debtor was brought to him who owed ten thousand talents. Now, at his not having wherewith to pay, the lord orders him to be disposed of, and his wife and children and all, whatever he has, and payment to be made. Falling down, then, that slave worshiped him, saying, Lord, be patient with me, and I will pay you all! Now, having compassion, the lord of that slave dismisses him, and remits his loan. Yet, coming out, that slave found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him a hundred denarii, and, holding him, he choked him, saying, 'Pay, if you are owing anything!" Falling down, then, his fellow slave entreated him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you all!' Yet he would not, but, coming away, he casts him into jail, till he may pay what he is owing. Then his fellow slaves, perceiving what is occurring, were tremendously sorry and coming, they elucidate to their lord all that is occurring. Then his lord, calling him to him, is saying to him, 'Wicked slave! That entire debt I remit to you, since you entreat me. Was it not binding on you also to be merciful to your fellow slave, as I also am merciful to you?' And, being indignant, his lord gives him up to the tormentors till he mav pay all he is owing him. Thus shall My heavenly Father also be doing to you, if each one should not be pardoning his brother, from your hearts.” (Mt 18:21-35)

"Whenever you may be praying, be saying, 'Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name! Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, on earth also…And pardon us our sins, for we ourselves also are pardoning everyone who is owing us."(Mt 11:2,4)

"Blessed indeed, then, are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!" (Mt 11:28

“For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted." (Lk 14:1)

“Take heed to yourselves. Yet if your brother should be sinning, rebuke him, and if he should ever indeed repent, forgive him. And if he should ever be sinning against you seven times a day, and if he should ever be turning about seven times a day to you, saying '1 am repenting,' you shall be forgiving him." (Lk 17:3)

“And whenever you may be standing praying, be forgiving, if you have anything against anyone, that your Father also, Who is in the heavens, may be forgiving you your offenses. Now if you are not forgiving, neither will your Father Who is in the heavens be forgiving your offenses." (Mk 11:26)

"A new commandment am I giving you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another. By this all shall be knowing that you are my disciples, if you should be having love for one another." (Jn 13:34-35)

"This is my commandment, that you be loving one another, according as I love you.” (Jn 15:12)

“In these things I am directing you, that you may be loving one another.” (Jn 15:17)

“These things have I spoken to you that in me you may have peace…” (Jn 16:33)

“Peace to you!” (Jn 20:19)

“Now this He is saying Who is holding the seven stars in his right hand. Who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: ‘I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you cannot bear evil men, and you try those saying that they thernselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false; and you have endurance, and you bear because of my name, and are not wearied. But I have against you that you leave your first love. Remember, then, whence you have fallen, repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting.” (Rv 2:5)

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation. Blessed are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the log of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.” (Rv 22:14)

I have seen the City, from below and afar. It is beautiful. I want to see it again. Given all of the above, what I can I do but apologize – to all of those here to whom I have shown smugness and arrogance and condescension – to paraclete and Liberator, and byeltsin; and to those to whom I have played the game of “eye-for-an-eye” – Mr White and others I do not remember by name, but I know there have been many, perhaps all.

And then to A K A Stone, my brother in Christ. Will they know we are Christians by our love? Or will they know we are Christians by the way we tear each others’ throats out? We must not do that anymore. It is not right.

In truth, having just been utterly spanked by God, I cannot recall what it was we were fighting about. I do know that we should not resume where we left off. At least I can’t. Peace to all of you. Have a good weekend.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 125.

#8. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

A Conversation With God

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-22   22:41:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: rlk (#8)

So you hear voices. Any other psychotic symptoms.

Riddle me this, Batman: So when you dream, hear voices. As YOU speak to other alleged people -- is THAT "psychotic"?

Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2017-09-23   10:29:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Liberator (#17)

Riddle me this, Batman: So when you dream, hear voices. As YOU speak to other alleged people -- is THAT "psychotic"?

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real. I've had dreams where I have seen people I haven't seen for real in 20 years.

rlk  posted on  2017-09-23   14:20:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: rlk (#21)

Not if after I wake up I don't consider them real.

I was not asleep in any of the cases of which I have spoken. These experiences were not dreams.

They are, as you have put it, psychotic hallucinations, or they are real. I know them to be real, and I speak of them as real, because they are.

I do not claim that they give me unimpeachable authority. I do state that they make my belief in God unshakeable. I don't believe, I know. I understand that "faith" does not mean "belief". It means trust.

Just because there exists a powerful being capable of reading my thoughts and manipulating my physical body does not mean, perforce, that that force is benign. It could be malign. I have faith that it is benign, not malign, in my case.

None of this is intended to convince you to believe anything I say. I IS intended to tell you, directly, that you are wrong in believing that God does not exist. He does. You don't know it now because you have not yet seen.

You will.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-23   15:19:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#25)

you are wrong in believing that God does not exist.

I don't argue that God does not exist. I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

In Alexander Pope's words, "Presume thy self not God to scan. The proper study of mankind is man."

rlk  posted on  2017-09-24   0:47:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: rlk (#30)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-24   16:01:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Vicomte13 (#36)

I only argue that there is no evidence that God, if there is one, does not concern or intrude himself with the follies of mankind.

Yeah, well, you're wrong.

You take two contrary positions.

You also said the following.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

So you're right - I have absolutely no belief at all that Christ will reach down from heaven and protect Christians from any diseases, or marauding enemies, or starvation, or natural disaster - because he DOESN'T protect us from any of things, and never said he would. Our reward for staying true to him is found on the other side, in the afterlife, not HERE.

If you have diabetes here, praying to Christ will keep you faithful to him to the end and win you the afterlife, but you're still going to lose your foot in THIS life, because Christ isn't going to lift a finger to protect you from the natural law, or from the marauding of other men. You have to help yourself in this life - Christ holds out the promise of happiness in the afterlife if, in the process of helping yourself in this one you don't do great evil, and you remember him and try to do what he said. That's the deal.

That Christ substitutes for human government in this life is impiety. It is ignoring what he really said, and adding nonsense to it that he never said.

Christ will not govern your country. He won't save you from malaria, or hurricanes, or earthquakes, or Nazis. He will have compassion on you, and receive your soul when they kill you, but he won't stop them from killing you, he won't drive off your diseases if you drink contaminated water, and he won't make hurricane Irma spare your life. He might on a one-off basis, but Christians at large get no pass, at all, from natural law.

Christ's deal is not about here.

libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=52686&Disp=14#C14

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   7:31:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: A K A Stone (#47) (Edited)

You take two contrary positions.

Apparently.

What I mean is that if one bases one's socio-economic policy upon the belief that we don't need a health care system or a welfare system because Christ is going to heal everybody their diseases just by praying, that one will be sadly disappointed. Jesus isn't going to do that.

On the other hand,, God CAN do it - certainly - because here and there he has done it. God is CAPABLE, certainly, of routinely healing everybody all the time, and of sending down manna from heaven so that we don't have to struggle to eat.

One might ask that, since God CAN reach down and just fix us all and feed us all, why he DOESN'T routinely do it.

I believe that the answer to that is found in the Scriptures. God acknowledges that these needs exist - indeed the economics of the world were set up by him to be the way that it is. But in both testaments he has placed the burden of taking care of the needs of men primarily upon men.

We are to take care of each other. God can, and sometimes does, intervene in individual cases. But God is not a replacement for a health care system or a welfare system for poverty relief, because he has told us he WANTS US to take care of each other (which requires us to privilege other human beings' needs over our personal desire to accumulate wealth and place our security in that wealth).

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true. God DOES sometimes grant individual miracles. But we cannot rely on miracle to replace our obligation to provide medical care and charity, for those are the primary way that God takes care of us - through the agency of one another.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   8:47:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#48)

So the two things I wrote, while apparently contradictory, are nevertheless simultaneously true.

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   12:31:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Tooconservative (#49)

"White is black, black is white, any appearance of contradiction is illusory or due to the curse of your evil ignorance which I am blessed not to share."

White is black, or black is white, depending on how you look at it, yes.

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

So yes, white is black, and black is white, if you look at it a certain way. Absolutely.

There's nothing wrong with looking straight at the complexity of reality.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   13:14:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

White is the presence of all colors of light, or the absence of all colors of pigment.

Black is the absence of all light, or the presence of all shades of pigment.

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   13:28:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Tooconservative (#52)

You misstate this intentionally. I assume you're merely trying to distract.

No. I directly addressed the point that you made.

I stand by quoting Jesus at length.

And I stand by what I said in answer to AKA Stone's question.

Fact: Christian people faced with calamity, horror, death and illness the world over pray in desperation to God all the time.

Fact: God hears the prayers, but does not, in fact, save millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions, in spite of their sincere and desperate prayers.

It is a demonstrable fact that God simply does not dispense miracles on call in order to provide social welfare to the world on a daily basis. He does not do it, and we can all see it. He did call for us men to provide the relief to our neighbors. He told us not to pile up wealth, but to use it to help others. So he did provide a way that - if obeyed - is the standard way by which human suffering on a grand scale is relieved.

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us. Prayer is not a substitute for social welfare. Social welfare provided at the instruction of Christ is the way that God has said to answer that need.

BUT it is also true that God does, sometimes, reach down to individuals and perform stunning miracles. This is also a fact.

So, he does demonstrate that he IS, and he CAN, but no, we cannot RELY on that instead of doing what he said and providing the help ourselves.

That's what I said. I've repeated it now.

You desire to pull me off that, but I'm not inclined to get distracted. What I said is clear, and it is true.

I assume you're attacking again and again because you don't know what else to do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   14:30:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#53)

God intends, though disaster and disease, to put us in the position to perform the grace he has demanded of us.

The devil is the tempted not God. It seems to me you are attributing Satan's characteristics and saying it is God.

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   15:50:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: A K A Stone (#57)

JESUS said he came to give life. He said the devil came to kill and destroy.

Obviously those things are true.

But God said that he is the creator of both good and evil. The Father is more remote from us, and creates both us and the viruses that kill us, and provides for both of us.

Jesus is OUR champion, the divine human the Father sent for us to follow through a world filled with obstacles that He created for His reasons - including disease and calamity, and Satan himself, all of whom are also creations of God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   16:01:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Vicomte13 (#60)

Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2017-09-25   16:02:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: A K A Stone, redleghunter (#61) (Edited)

AKA: Can you show me where God said he created evil? I've never heard of that.

Vic: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Do not be taken in by this sophistry. Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

Look at the first verse of Isaiah 45: "Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;"

Understand that Jehovah is addressing Cyrus the Great, who was King of Persia, King of Anshan, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad. In short, he conquered and established the Achaemenid Empire. Cyrus was the king who freed the Jews from their long Babylonian captivity and enabled the building of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. He returned the sacred Temple vessels to them and gave them vast sums with which to rebuild the Temple. Cyrus is called "the annointed" which is very close to being called "the messiah" to the ancient Jews. No other Gentile in all of the Bible is described this way.

As for God creating good and evil, understand that the word rendered here as "evil" can also mean "sorrow" or "woe" or "judgment for sins" and similar meanings, not just evil itself. The Bible never teaches that God is the author of evil. NEVER! Anyone who tells you this is profoundly wrong or trying to lie to you. That is what Vic is doing here.

In addition, many scholars believe that Jehovah in this passage is repeatedly announcing himself as the god of light and the god of darkness, the god of good and the god of evil (woe) for a reason: to convince Cyrus that He is the true God and must be obeyed. Under the local Persian religion of the era, there was a fascination with pagan dualism which was a rising cult and which taught of the god of light/good and the god of dark/evil. Later, this became formalized into Zoroastrianism and other similar dualist cults that have persisted until modern times in the region. So Jehovah is saying to Cyrus that He and He alone is both the god of light/good and the god of darkness/evil to establish His authority because He intends for Cyrus to release the Jews from the Babylonian captivity and help them return to Israel prepared and equipped to rebuild and refurbish the Temple.

So why exactly is Vic now trying to tell you that the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 is to establish that God is the author and origin of evil? That's a really good question. Is he ignorant or is he trying to deceive you?

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:09:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Tooconservative (#69)

Vic is deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45.

I am directly quoting God.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:24:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

You're verse-plucking out of context in the Old Testament, a classic device of profound heresy.

It is the deliberate attempt to use that verse so dishonestly that condemns you.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:26:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Tooconservative (#72)

Answer me, Satan.

Who created the Devil?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   17:28:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Vicomte13 (#73)

Who created the Devil?

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   17:59:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Tooconservative (#75)

God created all the angelic beings, some of whom followed Satan in his sin of pride and thereby fell from grace to eternal condemnation.

So, you acknowledge that God created Satan.

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   18:07:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Can Satan create life? Yes or no.

Your attempt to distract is fooling no one.

You were deliberately misrepresenting Isaiah 45 to AKA and I caught you doing that and now you are scurrying away like a cockroach fleeing when a light is turned on.

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   18:32:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Tooconservative (#77)

Isaiah 45 is not about whether Satan can create life.

Obviously not. In Isaiah 45, God states bluntly that he creates evil and good. Which is obviously the case.

Can Satan create life? No.

Is the typhoid bacteria, the malaria larva, the AIDS virus - are these things life? Yes, they are. They are living things.

Satan cannot create life. God created the typhus bacteria, the AIDS virus and malaria. What are each of these things? Are they random bacteria lying around? No: they are living things designed specifically to attack a human host and live on human tissues. They create more suffering and more death among human beings than all of the earthquakes, famines and wars combined. The ultimate evil that human beings endure is being wiped out by the millions in epidemics. Epidemics are not accidents: they are the attack on the human species of living things, created anew every few years, to come and wipe out hundreds of millions, indeed billions, of human beings.

Earthquakes might be accidents, but diseases peculiar to man, that attack man through our reproductive systems, our blood and our excretory processes are designer miseries, and the only designer and creator of life in the Universe is God Almighty.

God makes these bugs to kill man. That is evil. God afflicts mankind with evil. He's not some inert being who stands aside while evil "happens". Living things do not spontaneously happen, and the devil cannot create life.

When God spoke to Moses, He told him that IF the Hebrews followed the food laws that He gave them, that HE would not afflict them with the diseases they suffered in Egypt. To be clear, God did not say that they would avoid disease, if they ate a certain way. He said that He would not sic diseases upon them. So, if the Hebrews broke kosher, it was God who was infecting their bodies with disease and killing them - not some passive agent.

God said that He creates good and evil, and the deadliest evil that afflicts all of mankind is in the form of epidemics, in which mankind dies by the millions, in agony, every year, from diseases that God created with the PURPOSE of killing mankind.

The translators of the KJV got it right: God creates good AND EVIL. God created Satan. God created malaria. God created AIDS and influenza.

God is really quite deadly to mankind - and HE KNOWS IT - which is why he sent a Savior, his Son, so that if we follow him, even though God's world will certainly kill us one way or the other, we can have confidence that it is not the end of the story, and our sorrow and pain be turned to joy. That does not mean that the sorrow and pain are not real when we are experiencing them. They are. And God creates the vehicles of that sorrow and pain and death, and then he sends those evils to attack us.

Nobody and nothing else can create life.

So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.

You spent so much time pretending that you had "gotten" me somehow that, well, everybody sees what you did.

Now, if you want to explain that God DIDN'T create Satan, or DIDN'T create malaria, or DIDN'T tell Moses that he would afflict the Israelites with disease, you can go ahead and try.

As for me, I will stand pat on the words of the KJV, because they accurately convey the obvious. Others of those translations do too: you're trying too hard to distinguish between "woe" and "evil".

In any case. there was never the slightest attempt to distract in anything I wrote. I was always direct. I asked direct questions. I answered questions asked of me. I misrepresented nothing.

You have not done the same. You won't answer questions. You have twisted yourself into a pretzel to accuse me of lying, deceit, dishonesty, manipulation.

False. I have told you exactly what I believe. I have told you why. I have given you the thought process by which I arrived at this conclusion, and I gave you proof text from the traditional Protestant Bible to make the point directly from the mouth of God. I could not possibly have been more direct, straightforward and honest.

You've had a hissy fit.

At this point we've both stated our cases. Yours is that I am a dishonest person, twisting Scripture for some nefarious purpose.

Mine is that the agreed-upon text says what is logically so, and I stand by what God said directly.

It is up to the readers to decide what they think.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:01:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, redleghunter (#80)

So yes, God DOES create evil. The KJV translators got it exactly right.

None of the KJV translators held the opinions you have manufactured from a flawed understanding of their translation of Isaiah. They were well-known scholars and published on many Christian topics. None were ever accused of holding such views as what you are presenting here. You seem to misunderstand the entire narrative of Isaiah.

Skimming through that tripe you just posted, it's clear you've invented some bizarre personal hyper-Calvinist Romanism. I've known a fair number of Calvinists and you go well beyond even the most hardnosed double-predestinarians Calvinists, certainly well beyond anything Calvin ever wrote in his Institutes.

There is no way that any educated Catholic layperson or priest or bishop or even that idiotic Pope Frank would endorse anything you wrote above.

If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   21:27:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Tooconservative (#86)

If you actually believe what you just wrote, you are likely an evil or deluded person. Your post reeks of it.

I stand by what I wrote. I am confident that it is true, and that it reflect the real God, who was, who is, and who will be, who revealed himself in the Scriptures, and who reveals himself all around us all the time.

You obviously have a problem with it. It seems that you have a bunch of traditions about translations, traditions about who has the authority to decide such things, traditions about how to talk to Catholics and how to discuss religion. So many traditions.

Not seeing much based on Scripture, though. Just seeing you vent your spleen at me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-25   21:38:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Vicomte13 (#89)

You worship an evil God. By your own admission. And you are proud of it.

The god you worship is not the god of the Bible.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-25   22:01:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Tooconservative (#91) (Edited)

You worship an evil God.

There is only one God: Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. All things. Not some things. Not just the things I like. ALL things. God created man, and he created malaria. Who ELSE could create living things?

He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said.

He also sends us a way to achieve peace and life everlasting - by following Jesus.

Pretty simple. Pretty biblical.

If you're worshipping a different god, you're wasting your time on something that doesn't exist.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   6:51:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Vicomte13 (#93)

He creates evil and he sends it to people as woe, just exactly as he said.

You espouse a philosophy far more wicked than the double-predestinarian Calvinist types ever did.

You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church.

It's no surprise to me that your most repugnant and distorted ideas come straight from your peculiar and distorted readings of the Old Testament, that you dive back into it over and over.

It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   7:08:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Tooconservative (#95)

You are peddling your own bizarre ideas here, not that of any organized church. ... It's clear that you aren't a Christian in any meaningful sense.

Peddling? Have I asked you for money?

You have passed your judgment, loud and clear: "You are not a Christian in any meaningful sense."

Anything else?

As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   8:24:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Vicomte13 (#98)

As far as I can tell, nobody agrees with you.

I think they've recognized what you're peddling here.

It is you who is isolated. Orthodox Christianity has never preached your foul philosophy of worshiping a god of evil.

I think you are re-inventing gnostic philosophy by misusing the Old Testament, the most common path of heretics. You come close to embracing the ancient heresies on the demiurge.

Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   9:42:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Tooconservative (#99)

Even in a church of Rome, you would not dare to repeat the things that you are saying here.

I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things. Both the Monsignor and the other parish priest are there, and the discussion is lively.

I'm not a heretic, at all, and what I have to say is well within the bounds of Catholicism.

You just hate me, so you scream "heretic", etc., and do not think about what I am saying.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   10:55:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Vicomte13 (#104)

I do it every weekend in our group at the church, where we talk about the Gospel and other things.

So you have a sweet little bible study at the local church of Rome with the Monsignor where you all celebrate your god of evil and pray to Mary.

Lovely.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   10:58:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Tooconservative (#107)

So you have a sweet little bible study at the local church of Rome with the Monsignor where you all celebrate your god of evil and pray to Mary.

That's not a very accurate description.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   14:01:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Vicomte13 (#121)

That's not a very accurate description.

I think it is.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26   14:04:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Tooconservative (#123)

I think it is.

Because you are boiling with rage and frustration, and lashing out any way you can. It is better to shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-09-26   14:15:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 125.

#126. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, Liberator, redleghunter, buckeroo (#125)

Because you are boiling with rage and frustration, and lashing out any way you can. It is better to shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand.

You do talk very much as we know the ancient gnostics did, full of secret mystic knowledge. They also emphasized particularly these doctrines of a god of evil and a god of good. I find it quite familiar, having read Elaine Pagel's seminal study The Gnostic Gospels when it came out decades back and so your rhetoric is very familiar. It was in most respects the most common doctrinal belief with them. They also believed that they alone were the "true Christians" and that ordinary orthodox Christianity was only meant for the ignorant masses. You line up with this entire gnostic arrogance from beginning to end.

Now you want to impress us by name-dropping about your sweet little bible study with "the Monsignor". I'm sure that all sounds very good to those who don't know much about the record of the Roman Catholic church's fine clergymen in Connecticut. Why don't we discuss exactly who has been leading the Roman churches in your locale so we can decide exactly how much weight to assign to being in a bible study with a Monsignor in your fair state?

NBC: Priest Who Ran Meth Ring Sentenced to 5 Years, 2015

A suspended Connecticut Roman Catholic priest who authorities say dealt pounds of methamphetamine and bought a sex shop intending to launder his drug money will spend another three years in prison after being sentenced on Thursday.

Around 75 people were in court on Thursday to support Monsignor Kevin Wallin, 63, dubbed "Monsignor Meth" in some media reports, and the judge called it an "unprecedented" turnout for a drug trafficking sentencing.

Wallin, who has already served 28 months in jail, was sentenced to five years and five months in prison. With time served, Wallin will be in prison for three more years, followed by five years of supervised release.

"My shame remains intense. ... 'I'm sorry' does not convey the remorse I feel," Wallin said on Thursday. "The day I was arrested was a very good day."

In March, Monsignor Kevin Wallin's public defender filed a sentencing request for leniency in federal court in Hartford, citing Wallin's three decades of charitable service as well as more than 80 letters of support, including one from the late New York Cardinal Edward Egan.

"I cannot ignore your decision to infect your community with methamphetamine," Judge Alfred Covello said.

In addition to the dozens of supporters, 90 letters supporting wallin were also submitted.

Wallin pleaded guilty in 2013 to a methamphetamine conspiracy charge and agreed to a potential prison sentence of 10 to 11 years, but was asking for a sentence of no more than four years in prison, followed by a year of home confinement, 500 hours of community service and drug treatment.

"The record evidence demonstrates that Kevin Wallin is an extraordinary man whose remarkable character and acts have touched thousands of people," Wallin's public defender, Kelly Barrett, wrote in the sentencing request in March. "Kevin tragically became a methamphetamine addict. He fell from grace and did criminal wrong, but has confessed his crimes and has been working hard to atone for them."

Barrett wrote that Wallin's numerous accomplishments include serving as pastor of St. Peter's Parish in Danbury and the Cathedral Parish in Bridgeport, volunteering with a variety of community groups, helping found an AIDS ministry program, leading an inner city charity group, serving on the Danbury Cultural Commission and serving on the board of directors of Sacred Heart University.

Egan, who died in March, was bishop of the Diocese of Bridgeport from 1988 to 2000 and praised Wallin in a letter to the court.

"He was outstanding in the fulfillment of his assignments and in his concern for people in need," Egan wrote. "Father Wallin was held in highest regard as a dedicated clergyman and an outstanding citizen as well."

Federal prosecutors said Wallin committed serious crimes and most people convicted of conspiring to sell meth are sentenced to at least 10 years in prison.

Federal investigators said Wallin had associates in California send him methamphetamine beginning in late 2008 or early 2009. By 2011, Wallin's partners were sending him one to three pounds of meth a month and Wallin was running the drug operation out of his apartment in Waterbury, investigators said.

Wallin also bought the "Land of Oz & Dorothy's Place" adult video and sex toy shop in North Haven and apparently intended to launder drug proceeds that totaled in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, federal agents said in court documents.

Wallin's two accomplices in California — Chad McCluskey of San Clemente and Kristen Laschober of Laguna Niguel — were both sentenced last year to five years in prison. Two men who helped Wallin sell drugs in Connecticut also were convicted. Kenneth Devries, of Waterbury, was sentenced to more than two years in prison and Michael Nelson of Manchester awaits sentencing.

Brian Wallace, a spokesman for the Diocese of Bridgeport, previously said Wallin is still a priest, but remains suspended from public ministry.

"We're asking for prayers for him, understanding and recognizing that many people ... suffer from addiction and they lose control of their lives," Wallace said. "It's time for him to try to rebuild his life."

So your "Monsignor" isn't also a pervert meth dealer and porn peddler/money launderer like this guy? Did you or any others in your church write those letters pleading for leniency for this "Monsignor Meth" when he was sentenced? Did you or others in your church turn up to support him in court? And, BTW, admirable work for the church of Rome in Connecticut to dump Monsignor Meth once he was exposed and thereby force the public to pay for his public defender too despite the very deep pockets of the laity in Connecticut.

Lest anyone think this Monsignor Meth is just some outlier, some isolated incident in Connecticut and that I am just being mean or something, let's look a little further to find out more about the outstanding works performed by the Roman Catholic clergy of the fine state of Connecticut.

Trement, Sheldon, Robinson & Mahoney: Connecticut Priests Involved In Sexual Abuse

Priests Involved

The following 48 men are current or former priests of the Diocese of Bridgeport or the Archdiocese of Hartford, who have been sued, suspended following allegations of sexual abuse of minors, or have claims against them. This information was obtained from the Official Catholic Directory. Please note, if we are actively pursuing a case or if confidentiality agreements were assigned, that priest would not be listed. Further, we have pursued and are actively pursuing cases against not only Catholic priests, but other religious institutions/denominations and figures including nuns and other individuals associated with the church such as religious educators. Please contact us directly for further information and questions.

The Diocese of Bridgeport

Archdiocese of Hartford

I see that there are six "Monsignors" among the 48 (known) kiddie-diddling clergy so far revealed publicly in the two dioceses of Connecticut. Your own "Monsignor" isn't one of these six in the list, is he? And you should count the Monsignors for yourself since I might have miscounted, being so ignorant and all.

That's some outstanding clergy your church recruited to diddle the kiddies of Connecticut. I guess that since you have only a daughter, you figure she'll be safe from the priest and "the Monsignor". That's probably true enough.

At any rate, you can tell me patronizingly to "shrug your shoulders and let be that which you do not understand" but let me tell you this, you arrogant deluded sonofabitch, I do understand what your clergy is and what they have done in your state. They fuck children. And you give them money. Mostly so you can enjoy sipping tea with "The Monsignor" and chatting learnedly about just how evil God is on Sunday afternoons. Maybe you should worry less about how evil God is and a lot more about how evil the goddamned priests and "Monsignors" are in your own churches in Connecticut. And your personal moral responsibility in supporting the kind of church that has institutionalized its perverted sexual assaults on children and other vulnerable persons.

Now I will shrug my shoulders.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-09-26 15:27:20 ET  (1 image) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 125.

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