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Title: Salt Lake County DA requests FBI assistance in Nurse Alex Wubbels investigation
Source:
Fox 13 Now
URL Source: http://fox13now.com/2017/09/07/salt ... se-alex-wubbels-investigation/
Published: Sep 7, 2017
Author: Mark Green
Post Date: 2017-09-07 18:28:30 by kenh
Keywords: None
Views: 20313
Comments: 105
SALT LAKE CITY — Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill has requested the FBI’s assistance in the investigation into the arrest of a Utah nurse who refused to allow a blood draw from an unconscious patient without following proper procedure. In a statement released Thursday, Gill said his office officially requested the FBI investigate: “any and all individuals involved in the chain of conduct arising from the incident at the University of Utah Hospital on July 26, 2017 for any Civil Rights Violations under the color of authority.” Gill said he requested the FBI’s help due to events beyond a mere criminal investigation.
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#1. To: kenh (#0)
YAY! Bring in federal force. Civil rights were violated. Federal case! Criminal penalties. Federal civil penalties! The agony of the perps here is going to be fantastic to watch.
Connections to the Federal Fusion Center need to be investigated. It's a jackboot crime hub for corrupt State, Local, National, and International LEO gangs. Refuse to raise the debt ceiling, until all funding is cut for the Fusion Center nurse molesters. Normally, you'd expect the local prosecutor to be adequate. However, they would have no jurisdiction to charge the Logan PD or the Utah highway patrol. In such cases, you'd normally see the Utah attorney general investigate the case. However, if the Utah highway patrol was involved, the attorney general would be representing them in the primary case or on appeal in a higher court. Also telling is the mention that this goes beyond a criminal investigation. And what exactly might that be? I think it is a case of conspiracy to deprive the trucker of his constitutional rights and that it was instigated by the Utah highway patrol with the Logan PD who then requested Payne's supervisor to get the blood for them and he sent Payne out to do it. Which is when he assaulted and arrested the nurse, violating her rights as well. The FBI has long experience in cases involving conspiracy to deprive people of their constitutional rights. It is almost exclusively a federal matter.
I am inclined to be merciful to the cop and the watch supervisor once they have admitted wrongdoing, and once police supporters stop trying to justify this abuse of authority by these two men. As long as they and their allies defend the indefensible, then it is necessary that they be aggressively prosecuted criminally and civilly, with maximum penalties sought for abuse of authority, false arrest and other crimes. If they admit they were wrong and admit they exceeded their authority, publicly, then I am willing to let them get on with their lives. The supervisor could even keep his job, according to me - he'll never make that mistake again. But if they won't admit they were wrong, if they defend what they did are are unrepentant and adamant about having had the authority to do that and acted properly, then as far as I am concerned they can both be burnt to death for their crimes. No mercy.
Any person who is dead, unconscious, or in any other condition rendering the person incapable of refusal to submit to any chemical test or tests is considered to not have withdrawn the consent provided for in Subsection 41-6a- 520(1), and the test or tests may be administered whether the person has been arrested or not. Hey, now's your chance to drop a timely email to the SLC prosecutor to tell him about your exciting discovery in the Utah statutes. Obviously, the SLC prosecutor doesn't know a thing about Utah law 41-6a-522 overruling the two major decisions of the Supreme Court over the last 4 years. Make sure you CC the FBI with your hot tip as well. Good luck!
I'm not. Your sympathy is misplaced. Both have undoubtedly sent people to jail or prison, ruined lives, for doing less than what they tried to do.
They won't apologize, so I say burn them alive.
You're confusing me. One post, burn them. Next post, forgive them if they apologize. Next post, burn 'em. You need to pick one and stick with it. : ) The political heat in SLC must be off the charts for them to bring in the FBI. They're probably wishing they could have a nice regular hurricane like Houston did instead of that cursed Nurse Wubbells showing up on TV or the internet every 5 minutes. LOL
Since you posted your Fox13 article, the Salt Lake Tribune pushed out their top headline in the last hour. I decided to tack it on to your thread instead of starting a new one. On July 26, SLCPD Detective Jeff Payne arrested nurse Alex Wubbels during a dispute over getting blood without a warrant from the unconscious victim of a fiery crash. An FBI news release issued Thursday said the bureau has agreed to provide assistance and already had been looking into possible federal law violations. “The FBI opened a civil rights/color of law review of the matter when we found out about it in the media,” the release says. Color of law crimes are acts done by officials — such as use of excessive force or police misconduct — that go beyond their lawful authority and willfully deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or federal law. District Attorney Sim Gill announced last week he wanted a criminal investigation into the episode, and Salt Lake City officials said the Unified Police Department would conduct the probe. On Thursday, he said the investigation into possible violations of state law will continue. “This is really to be thorough,” Gill said of his request to FBI Special Agent Eric Barnhart, who heads the bureau’s Salt Lake City Division. Gill said in a news release he is asking “our federal law enforcement partners to fully vet issues only they can investigate.” He said the decision to request assistance was made over the Labor Day weekend and a formal letter was sent to Barnhart on Wednesday. “The District Attorney’s office has received multiple inquires and communications concerning the incident,” Gill added in the release. “We ask the community and our citizens to be patient. We assure them that this issue is of the utmost concern for us and we are committed to assuring a thorough, fair gathering and review of evidence, facts and issues.” The letter asks the FBI “to examine and consider whether actions by Det. Payne, other police officers and law enforcement personnel and anyone else acting under the color of authority constitutes criminal conduct, criminal civil rights violations, or other violations of law.” Gill’s letter adds: “It is essential that all individuals and institutions associated with this incident should be investigated to document the roles they played in the incident to prevent such a thing from happening again. Our community and its citizens deserve nothing less.” Payne has been placed on administrative leave and also is the subject of a police internal affairs investigation and a civilian review board.
Monstrous punitive damages in civil litigation. The municipality is on the hook, big time. Consider the possibility of looking back to find cases where the nurse did not say NO.
And for a blood draw from an accident in Logan, UT (81 miles away). This blood draw incident with the nurse was SLC's entire involvement. Could it get any more boneheaded? I say there's no way Payne or his supervisor survive this. They are ex-cops. And maybe headed for jail. Good. It's bigger than that. Look back over Payne's entire career. Any case where his blood evidence or testimony was the primary factor in a conviction is likely to be re-examined. New sentencing hearings, new trials, etc. If he was willing to violate a nurse's civil rights (and a victim's) to collect blood as the agent of Logan PD and/or UHP, then how can anything he ever did be taken at face value? Every case he testified in, every case where he took a blood sample, they're all suspect now. That may be the bigger nightmare waiting for prosecutors and the SLCPD.
Well, they could leave state laws on the books that should not be there. It may be a mitigating factor for Deputy Dawg, but bring the State into it for liability.
We know that Rotten Cop had to have had at least one mandatory recertification training (every two years by law in Utah) and additional training since the first major USSC case on involuntary blood draws was decided four years ago. It seems to me that a detective has to be responsible for knowing the law and any recent USSC decisions involving specialist certification they hold. It's unlikely that SLCPD sends its people to outside training. They would be doing it in-house, probably with someone on staff who is certified as a trainer. That's pretty common practice. So he should have known. Or maybe Vic is right and he just didn't care because he was playing King Badge. Oh, and...
Maybe she operated an illegal lemonade stand when she was a kid? Book 'em Danno! You need to pick one and stick with it. : ) Burn them, unless they bend the knee, then forgive them. But if they refuse to bend the knee, burn them. It's called "Thinking like Payne". It's called "Measuring Payne by the standard by which he measured." After all, these cops chased a man TO HIS DEATH BY FIRE, and the accident they chased him into BURNT THE VICTIM whose blood Payne was trying to take. Burning people up because they don't obey is what Payne does, so it seems like a fair and balanced punishment. Unless he submits and bawls like a baby and admits his wrongdoing. Then I would be merciful. But since I expect him to be a stubborn, stiff-necked jackass to the end, then I say "Dracarys!"
Come to think of it..."Burn them all!" - Aerys II
The next thing, some angry mob of Mormon schoolchildren will boo the mayorette and the city council will commit hari-kari. Normally, the Mormons are a pretty passive lot, closely resembling well-tended dairy animals. But those Mormons have their titties in a wringer over Nurse Wubbels. LOL. How many people still recall what the phrase 'titty in a wringer' actually means. Damn, that's funny. : ) When I was very small, my mom still had a washer that looked like this one, down to the red warning bar on the wringer.
Payne''a got the Utah pod people all pointing and shrieking. All over for him. He may as well go home, stick his head in the oven and turn on the gas. He's got nothing to look forward to now but unemployment, poverty and the finally the cancer.
We had a gasoline engine powered one on the farm, that had been upgraded to Briggs & Stratton. That about doubled the danger factor. My mom couldn't have started that gas engine and my dad wouldn't have trusted her with it. Hers was all-electric. Probably late Fifties or very early Sixties model. Hers did not have the lid on the basin. I recall the drain hose (no stopper, when you dropped the hose down, it drained the tub). The entire wringer could rotate so you could position it over a side table or over several laundry baskets. That little handle on top of the swivel post was the switch to start/stop the wringer and was totally waterproof, I think it might have been reversible too. The red bar was a warning but also a cutoff, in case something like a kid's fingers started to go through the wringer or if something too big started to clog the wringer. And I think that little horizontal bar on the very top of the wringer could be turned to take the pressure off the rollers so you could pull a clog back out of the wringer. But I was very young and was certainly not allowed to run the wringer. But like any toddler I followed my mom around watching her do chores. The agitator, the wringer, the swivel arm, the drain hose were all interesting to me at that age. I shudder to think of how many diapers she ran through that wringer with four kids over five years, all in cloth diapers. A small mountain of diapers, no doubt. I was youngest so probably all my diapers were hand-me-downs. : ) So what did the gas engine do? Run a little generator or something? Surely it didn't run the agitator or the wringer directly.
I was at a military command that had pictures of the CO and XO inside the door to the communication center. Under that, it read that the CO and XO, by virtue of their positions, had access to all levels of classified information. They flatly refused to remove it or change it. Advancement exams routinely asked a question about a CO/XO having access to classified information by virtue of their position. The correct answer was that nobody, by virtue of their position, has access to any level of classified information. What is the worker bee responsible to know? I know that anyone who believed the sign at the door would blow an exam question, and likely teach a subordinate incorrectly. The employing municipality is required to insure that all its police officers know the law that they are enforcing. Blowing it off, or gun decking it, can be expensive. So can giving bass ackwards instructions. They do not need the FBI to sort out the one cop.
Well, aside from what an investigation may show about prior actions of the cops, a prior nurse or hospital could be involved in prohibited disclosures of information.
In the case of Wubbels, it appears she is a TRUE public servant and at least hesitant to file any civil lawsuit over the event, instead choosing the high road of using her experience to make the world a better place. Perhaps an unintended consequence of that is the potential for her to sue would hang over the city until the legal deadline passes (years, I imagine), during which time the city would be walking on eggshells with the entire medical community. The city might prefer a lawsuit that would be either settled out of court quickly or litigated almost as quickly, after which the matter would be legally and irrevocably settled and it's civic life and business as usual could return.
This involves a lot more than one cop. It involves... “any and all individuals involved in the chain of conduct arising from the incident at the University of Utah Hospital on July 26, 2017 for any Civil Rights Violations under the color of authority.”
But if the trail leads to a conspiracy to deprive the trucker and/or nurse of their civil rights, they couldn't just refer this to the Utah AG. And the Logan PD and Utah highway patrol are mostly beyond their jurisdiction as SLC prosecutors. So the FBI would be needed for a scenario like that. Once again, who wanted this blood? Who was Rotten Cop going to deliver it to? Rotten Cop said his supervisor ordered him to get it and that the request came from the Logan PD. He also said "I've never gone this far before." And he said, "I'm leaving here with those blood vials or a body in tow." Which sounds a lot like he was told that exactly. Rotten Cop does not seem imaginative enough to dream much of this up on his own. He was echoing what his supervisor told him. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he tries to explain to the FBI how they were just trying to "protect" the trucker by violating his 4th Amendment rights. They'll eat him alive.
What?? He was acting under departmental procedure and the State of Utah law as written. She obstructed and then resisted arrest. This is insane.
So far. I'll mark your "high road" post for reference later.
Didn't one of those decisions concern exigent circumstances? How is that relevant to this case? It isn't. So why are you citing it?
Yes, it did. And thank you for asking. But it downplayed the use of exigent circumstances which was routinely offered as an excuse for warrantless blood draws. I think it was Sotomayor who wrote the majority opinion on that particular point. So that hurts your entire argument.
What for? She's completely within her legal and moral right to sue and use the money she wins for her own personal enjoyment (though it wouldn't surprise me if she instead donates it to a real charity).
So I can cite your stupid "She's taking the high road to make the world a better place" and rub it in your f**king face. "(though it wouldn't surprise me if she instead donates it to a real charity)." I'll mark this one for later reference also. What for? Same reason.
Did law enforcement cite exigent circumstances is this case as their legal reason to draw blood? No. Yet you reference a USSC ruling on exigent circumstances. Why? Other than you're an idiot.
You've got a rotating power source, why go electric? Belt drive from the engine crankshaft to the agitator/wringer gearbox and pump. I was like maybe 4 or 5 years old at the time we had that washing machine in the mid '50s. I remember the side loading electric one we had later much better. It had a door on top to add the detergent, and you could see the side of the tub turning down there. WoooHoo!!! This is a vintage 1920's Maytag washing machine with wringer powered by a 2-stroke engine. In rural America where there was no electricity, this made cleaning clothes a lot easier that it had been before. Another Maytag engine is running on the ground, and a "hit and miss" engine is running next to the washer. Taken August 27, 2011 at the Shelby Iron Works Engine Show in Shelby, Alabama (near Birmingham). So I can cite your stupid "She's taking the high road to make the world a better place" and rub it in your f**king face. hahahaa You are so cute when you're angry. I didn't say she wouldn't sue. I said she was at least hesitant to sue. If she does decide to sue, then it won't invalidate that observation. I said "it wouldn't surprise me" if she donated any damage awards to charity. She may decide instead to throw a big party for all her medical friends featuring a cop pinata that strongly resembles Payne. If so, more power too her.
And therein lies the nobility.
I agree with that assessment, but it may inevitably go beyond Wubbels to a class action. The extent of the violation is not yet clear. The FBI was not called in for help with one misdeed by one cop. He was acting unlawfully in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and U.S. Supreme Court precedent which had struck down, as null and void, all State laws and regulations or procedures repugnant to that precedential opinion. The officer's actions were unconstitutional and resort to null and void law, regulations or procedures offer no help to make his actions lawful. A directive from his lieutenant may mitigate his problems, but amplify the problems of the municipality of Salt Lake City. In addition, the officer's demands appear clearly in violation of HIIPA laws. If this has occured in multiple past cases, SLC could be facing a class action civil suit, appeals of criminal convictions, and more criminal complaints. Recall that TWO officers have been placed on administrative leave. Officer Payne did the arrest. Lieutenant Anonymous apparently called for the arrest. September 2, 2017 Another cop was placed on administrative leave with pay in the handcuffing of a Utah hospital nurse who refused to take blood from an unconscious patient. Salt Lake City’s mayor and police chief apologized Friday to Utah Hospital nurse, Alex Wubbels, who is seen in body cam video screaming “help me” after Detective Jeff Payne handcuffed and dragged her out of the hospital over her refusal to take the blood sample from the patient, a car-crash victim, on July 26. The video has caused outrage since it was released Thursday. Payne was placed on paid leave and prosecutors on Friday announced a a criminal investigation. Police said Friday a second officer was also placed on paid leave. That officer has not been formally identified, but officials have said they also were reviewing the conduct of Payne's boss, a lieutenant who reportedly called for the arrest if Wubbels kept interfering. [snip]
The FBI investigates. The Justice Department prosecutes. Salt Lake City Lieutenant James Tracy, who reportedly called for the arrest was placed on administrative leave, in addition to Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne. It was the Salt Lake City mayor who apologized, not Logan. The Logan PD is not on the hook for this, and they are not volunteering to climb on board. Logan called the SLC police to request a blood draw. Logan did not request or demand that any law be disregarded in the taking. That is Logan's story and they are sticking with it. SLC owns this mess. The nurse showed the Salt Lake City detective a copy of the agreement between the police and the hospital that such involuntary blood draws would not happen. Based on the existence of such an agreement, I will bet a cookie that this has happened before, and the agreement was used to avoid legal catastrophe. It appears that Lt. Troglodyte and Deputy Dawg did not get the word, or they are just free thinkers with a badge. By Stephen Hunt and Luke Ramseth The police officer who arrested a University Hospital nurse during a July 26 dispute over getting blood from a patient should immediately have been placed on administrative leave, according to Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski. Instead, Salt Lake City police Detective Jeff Payne was allowed to stay on the job until Sept. 1, a day after the nurse’s attorney publicly released police body camera footage of the arrest. Another officer — believed to be Payne’s watch commander, Lt. James Tracy — was placed on leave the same day. [...] Logan Police Chief Gary Jensen told CNN on Wednesday that Payne had called a Logan detective to say that he was having a tough time getting the blood. According to Jensen, the detective told Payne not to worry about it, because Logan could get the blood through other means. “He didn’t tell him you must cease and desist; he simply said, ‘Don’t worry about it, we’ll go another way,’” Jensen said in the CNN interview. “I just don’t believe [Payne’s] actions were in the best interest of the patient, the nurses or law enforcement, quite frankly. He could have just packed up and gone home.” [snip]
Isn't that standard in these types of cases? Or do you read something sinister into it? "The FBI was not called in for help with one misdeed by one cop." It's possible they're simply investigating a federal violation of her civil rights. Or it could be Russian interference.
Did you happen to notice one is a Lieutenant? Read: Salt Lake City liability. They could be investigating Keckistan, but I doubt it.
“He didn’t tell him you must cease and desist; he simply said, ‘Don’t worry about it, we’ll go another way,’” Jensen said in the CNN interview. “I just don’t believe [Payne’s] actions were in the best interest of the patient, the nurses or law enforcement, quite frankly. He could have just packed up and gone home.” Damn, that's cold. : ) They do have incentive to try to keep their hands clean. You have to wonder if they did eventually find a way to get the blood via other means.
I wonder if there is any other legal means to do it. Even if there were a medical draw, I don't see how he legally gets it without a warrant.
So they BOTH thought the law and police department policy were on their side. WTF is going on here? Why are these two being blamed for acting within accepted protocol? FIRE THEM!! TAKE THEIR HOUSES!! THROW THEM IN JAIL!! That's what I'm reading.
Don't get hysterical, misterwhite. We need you performing your otherwise cool, collected unmistakable love for the UBER AMRERICA POLICE STATE! It is what you do best to ensure I have lots of laffs.
Yeah. Sorry. I know you're all counting on me.
Your apologies are accepted. Listen to me, it is important; this is critical stuff here and within the chit-chat channel that I am about reveal to you. If it weren't for you consistently begging for a POLICE STATE w/ UBER CAPABILITIES TO FUCK AMERICA UP EVEN MORE, there would be no point of viewing your posts.
A jackass in power "authorizing" an unconstitutional act does not make it constitutional. It just leads to a criminal act. Deputy Dawg can always say he was just following orders, as that excuse has always worked well in the past. If SLC wants to accept that unconstitutional searches were accepted protocol, then they should get ready to open their wallet very wide.
Then shouldn't that jackass be blamed? And we're not talking about some isolated "act". This is Utah law and police department policy that's been used many times before without a problem. "If SLC wants to accept that unconstitutional searches were accepted protocol, then they should get ready to open their wallet very wide." Why SLC? Why not the State of Utah? It's their statute.
The Utah statute is legal and constitutional. The brain dead misreading of the statute by the SLC lieutenant, the detective, and yourself yields an unconstitutional, criminal result. And, of course, massive liability for Salt Lake City who employs those two blockheads. SLC should consider hiring the nurse to babysit them.
You have to wonder why they went so far over the line for an accident that occurred in Logan, UT, 81 miles outside their jurisdiction. Their only involvement was trying to get blood for Logan (or UHP in my conspiracy theory). I can't really imagine how or why they went so far in this case when it wasn't even their case to begin with.
You still gnawin' on that old bone?
The one that said they can draw blood from an unconscious driver?
Why do you almost always side with evil?
I am citing the law which explains the behavior. Nothing evil in that. You, on the other hand, have contributed zilch to these threads. Your posts consist of name-calling, lies, innuendos and incoherent ramblings. Look around in your head and find two functioning brain cells to rub together and create a relevant thought. If you can't find them -- which, obviously you haven't so far -- stop embarrassing yourself with your stupid posts.
I don't want to debate you. You're not worth the time as you wouldn't learn a thing. You're stuck where you are and will never change. So it is a better use of my time to let you know you are behaving in a bad way. Makes you seem like a horrible person. When someone is an idiot I will tell them that is what I think of them. Besides Chan and tooconservative and even Vic alreadyndestroyed you. You're just to stuck where you are to admit or realize it.
You mean the old bone that an SLC detective and his supervisor violated a nurse's rights and placed her under false arrest while trying to violate an accident victim's 4th Amendment rights, all for an accident that didn't occur in SLC jurisdiction and when the there was no probable cause that the victim was an impaired driver? Yes, that "old bone" is going to jump up and bite an SLC detective and his supervisor in the ass, real hard.
No. Your relentless pursuit of why things happened the way they did. It could be that police departmental policy is that any vehicular accident involving a fatality gives probable cause to draw blood from an unconscious or dead driver. Perhaps that's the policy that's now changed. Can't blame the cop for that.
Yes we can lamer.
You're just making shit up out of thin air.
I'm stating possibilities, using words like "could be" and "perhaps". You're the one making shit up with your "the detective and his supervisor violated a nurse's rights" and "placed her under false arrest" and "while trying to violate an accident victim's 4th Amendment rights" and "when the there was no probable cause that the victim was an impaired driver". What's your plan -- to apologize later when the truth comes out or temporarily disappear from the forum?
We'll see how it turns out. I say the nurse wins, pretty much across the board. Including if she files a lawsuit for a fat settlement from SLC PD.
Not if it goes to court. Not if we abide by the rule of law. Not if we instituted loser pays. But *sigh*, none of that will happen. The police department and the city will cave under political correctness and social pressure which people like you will incorrectly interpret as an admission of malfeasance rather than what it really is -- a bribe to just shut up and go away.
They'll cave because their city attorney will tell them they're going to lose badly on the merits. They don't pay out of fear of the public backlash. So they'll settle out of court, assuming the nurse decides to sue.
Merits schmerits. They might lose on the optics or on the emotional aspects, but legal merits? No. I'm sure the police department will be able to point to dozens of prior instances where they drew blood without incident. They can point to state law. They can point to departmental policy. Both Detective Jeff Payne and his supervisor believed they were operating within legal parameters, even to the point where Payne's supervisor ordered the nurse arrested for obstruction. The nurse didn't have the legal power to obstruct a police investigation. She exceeded her authority. For that she was briefly arrested. Briefly. Had SHE not resisted that arrest, things would have gone smoothly. Afterwards, things could have been straightened out. If the state and the city and the police department and the supervisor and the detective were all wrong, the blood evidence couldn't be used at trial -- assuming there ever was one. Keep in mind, that is the intent of fourth amendment protections -- to prevent evidence being used against you in a court of law. Plenty of time to sort this out.
We'll see. We've long since come to the point of just repeating our previous posts.
Your imagination knows no bounds. The actual statute is constitutional. Your imaginary content attributed to it is not.
I have no actual information to add, but I can imagine why such a request could be made and pursued. Did the person running from the cops have some powerful connection? Could the accident be blamed on a drunk truck driver? That is just an imagining of what could impel such abberent behavior.
Nope, you are citing a law that presumed consent to tests. It does not, and constitutionally cannot, authorized an invasive warrantless blood draw. You may have your license revoked, but the law does not permit an involuntary blood draw without a warrant, absent exigent circumstances. Alcohol dissipation cannot be considered exigent circumstances. If the statute did provide for a forcible blood draw, which it does not, it would be unconstitutional, null and void, and you would be cited something which, in the eyes of the law, does not exist.
Or impaired by prescription drugs or a medical condition. I would bet they scoured his phone (or tried to) to discover if he had had any texting or phone calls prior to the accident. Some trucks are also equipped with in-cab cameras to record everything the driver does, though the fire did seem pretty extensive to recover much from the accident. Of course, the truck driver remained in his lane. He did not swerve into oncoming traffic.
I thought the Supremes told us that a warrantless blood draw due to exigency was to be determined on a case-by-case basis. But I'm not sure exactly what they meant by that in practical terms. Seemed kinda vague but IANAL.
Keep in mind that it is the intent of the Fourth Amendment to forbid and prevent unlawful searches and seizures. It forbids the Legislature from enacting any legislation authorizing a misterwhite-approved unreasonable search. If you read a statute to authorize such a search, you are reading the statute wrong.
What investigation? Logan PD, perhaps trying to keep its hands clean, says it told SLCPD that it didn't matter if they got the blood after their initial request. So what was SLCPD investigating? What was its legitimate authority to investigate an accident or collect any evidence in an accident that occurred 81 miles outside its jurisdiction and which involved no SLCPD at all and therefore no probable cause for blood draws or anything else? SLCPD simply had no jurisdiction in this case at all.
Why, the accident of course. Not paying attention? "So what was SLCPD investigating?" They were assisting Logan PD by sending their trained phlebologist to legally collect a blood sample from an unconscious driver who was transported to the hospital. "Logan PD, perhaps trying to keep its hands clean, ..." You can bet they want no part of this.
Not their investigation, not their turf, not their accident victim. And Logan says they told them it was no problem if SLCPD didn't get a blood sample. So you say. I'd like more info. No doubt, we will learn more in a few weeks. Probably when the FBI or SLC prosecutors file a case against Rotten Cop and his Rotten Supervisor who obviously conspired to deprive the driver of his 4th Amendment rights and tried to intimidate the nurse with a false arrest. Recall the video of the arrest. Rotten Cop puts her in the car where she sat until Rotten Supervisor shows up five minutes later. Then we hear Rotten Supervisor saying that "she won't listen to me". I think it is clear that the false arrest was leverage to get her to allow the blood draw even after the false arrest. That was what Rotten Supervisor was trying to do when he talked to her. Otherwise, he would have released her immediately when he got on the scene. Instead he was trying to persuade her to allow the illegal blood draw. They saw her as the key obstacle blocking them since she was head nurse of the burn unit. So they arrested her to try to intimidate her into allowing the illegal blood draw. Hang 'em both.
The fact is, you are absolutely clueless about you are talking about. Missouri v. McNeely, S. Ct. 11-1425, 569 U.S. ____ (17 Apr 2013) [footnotes omitted] At 2: (Syllabus) [nc] You have admitted there is no claimed exception of exigent circumstances. Thus, the principal applies that the proposed search, involved a compelled physical intrusion beneath McNeely's skin and into his veins to obtain a blood sample to use as evidence in a criminal investigation, required a search warrant. Read it until you understand it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 4-11: (Opinion of the Court) A The Fourth Amendment provides in relevant part that “[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause.” Our cases have held that a warrantless search of the person is reasonable only if it falls within a recognized exception. See, e.g., United States v. Robinson, 414 U. S. 218, 224 (1973). That principle applies to the type of search at issue in this case, which involved a compelled physical intrusion beneath McNeely’s skin and into his veins to obtain a sample of his blood for use as evidence in a criminal investigation. Such an invasion of bodily integrity implicates an individual’s [*5] “most personal and deep-rooted expectations of privacy.” Winston v. Lee, 470 U. S. 753, 760 (1985); see also Skinner v. Railway Labor Executives’ Assn., 489 U. S. 602, 616 (1989). We first considered the Fourth Amendment restrictions on such searches in Schmerber, where, as in this case, a blood sample was drawn from a defendant suspected of driving while under the influence of alcohol. 384 U. S., at 758. Noting that “[s]earch warrants are ordinarily required for searches of dwellings,” we reasoned that “absent an emergency, no less could be required where intrusions into the human body are concerned,” even when the search was conducted following a lawful arrest. Id., at 770. We explained that the importance of requiring authorization by a “‘neutral and detached magistrate’” before allowing a law enforcement officer to “invade another’s body in search of evidence of guilt is indisputable and great.” Ibid. (quoting Johnson v. United States, 333 U. S. 10, 13–14 (1948)). As noted, the warrant requirement is subject to exceptions. “One well-recognized exception,” and the one at issue in this case, “applies when the exigencies of the situation make the needs of law enforcement so compelling that a warrantless search is objectively reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.” Kentucky v. King, 563 U. S. ___, ___ (2011) (slip op., at 6) (internal quotation marks and brackets omitted). A variety of circumstances may give rise to an exigency sufficient to justify a warrantless search, including law enforcement’s need to provide emergency assistance to an occupant of a home, Michigan v. Fisher, 558 U. S. 45, 47–48 (2009) (per curiam), engage in “hot pursuit” of a fleeing suspect, United States v. Santana, 427 U. S. 38, 42–43 (1976), or enter a burning building to put out a fire and investigate its cause, Michigan v. Tyler, 436 U. S. 499, 509–510 (1978). As is relevant here, we have also recognized that in some circumstances law enforcement officers may conduct a search without a [*6] warrant to prevent the imminent destruction of evidence. See Cupp v. Murphy, 412 U. S. 291, 296 (1973); Ker v. California, 374 U. S. 23, 40–41 (1963) (plurality opinion). While these contexts do not necessarily involve equivalent dangers, in each a warrantless search is potentially reasonable because “there is compelling need for official action and no time to secure a warrant.” Tyler, 436 U. S., at 509. [nc] In the instant case there was time to get a warrant. The detective did not even try. Our decision in Schmerber applied this totality of the circumstances approach. In that case, the petitioner had suffered injuries in an automobile accident and was taken to the hospital. 384 U. S., at 758. While he was there receiving treatment, a police officer arrested the petitioner for driving while under the influence of alcohol and ordered a blood test over his objection. Id., at 758–759. After explaining that the warrant requirement applied generally to searches that intrude into the human body, we concluded that the warrantless blood test “in the present case” was nonetheless permissible because the officer “might reasonably have believed that he was confronted with an emergency, in which the delay necessary to obtain a warrant, under the circumstances, threatened ‘the destruction of evidence.’” Id., at 770 (quoting Preston v. United States, 376 U. S. 364, 367 (1964)). In support of that conclusion, we observed that evidence could have been lost because “the percentage of alcohol in the blood begins to diminish shortly after drinking stops, as the body functions to eliminate it from the system.” 384 U. S., at 770. We added that “[p]articularly in a case such as this, where time had to be taken to bring the accused to a hospital and to investigate the scene of the accident, there was no time to seek out a magistrate and secure a warrant.” Id., at 770–771. “Given these special facts,” we found that it was appropriate for the police to [*8] act without a warrant. Id., at 771. We further held that the blood test at issue was a reasonable way to recover the evidence because it was highly effective, “involve[d] virtually no risk, trauma, or pain,” and was conducted in a reasonable fashion “by a physician in a hospital environment according to accepted medical practices.” Ibid. And in conclusion, we noted that our judgment that there had been no Fourth Amendment violation was strictly based“on the facts of the present record.” Id., at 772. Thus, our analysis in Schmerber fits comfortably within our case law applying the exigent circumstances exception. In finding the warrantless blood test reasonable in Schmerber, we considered all of the facts and circumstances of the particular case and carefully based our holding on those specific facts. B The State properly recognizes that the reasonableness of a warrantless search under the exigency exception to the warrant requirement must be evaluated based on the totality of the circumstances. Brief for Petitioner 28–29. But the State nevertheless seeks a per se rule for blood testing in drunk-driving cases. The State contends that whenever an officer has probable cause to believe an individual has been driving under the influence of alcohol, exigent circumstances will necessarily exist because BAC evidence is inherently evanescent. As a result, the State claims that so long as the officer has probable cause and the blood test is conducted in a reasonable manner, it is categorically reasonable for law enforcement to obtain the blood sample without a warrant. It is true that as a result of the human body’s natural metabolic processes, the alcohol level in a person’s blood begins to dissipate once the alcohol is fully absorbed and continues to decline until the alcohol is eliminated. See Skinner, 489 U. S., at 623; Schmerber, 384 U. S., at 770– [*9] 771. Testimony before the trial court in this case indicated that the percentage of alcohol in an individual’s blood typically decreases by approximately 0.015 percent to 0.02 percent per hour once the alcohol has been fully absorbed. App. 47. More precise calculations of the rate at which alcohol dissipates depend on various individual characteristics (such as weight, gender, and alcohol tolerance) and the circumstances in which the alcohol was consumed. See Stripp, Forensic and Clinical Issues in Alcohol Analysis, in Forensic Chemistry Handbook 437–441 (L. Kobilinsky ed. 2012). Regardless of the exact elimination rate, it is sufficient for our purposes to note that because an individual’s alcohol level gradually declines soon after he stops drinking, a significant delay in testing will negatively affect the probative value of the results. This fact was essential to our holding in Schmerber, as we recognized that, under the circumstances, further delay in order to secure a warrant after the time spent investigating the scene of the accident and transporting the injured suspect to the hospital to receive treatment would have threatened the destruction of evidence. 384 U. S., at 770–771. But it does not follow that we should depart from careful case-by-case assessment of exigency and adopt the categorical rule proposed by the State and its amici. In those drunk-driving investigations where police officers can reasonably obtain a warrant before a blood sample can be drawn without significantly undermining the efficacy of the search, the Fourth Amendment mandates that they do so. See McDonald v. United States, 335 U. S. 451, 456 (1948) (“We cannot . . . excuse the absence of a search warrant without a showing by those who seek exemption from the constitutional mandate that the exigencies of the situation made [the search] imperative”). We do not doubt that some circumstances will make obtaining a warrant impractical such that the dissipation of alcohol from the bloodstream will support an exigency justifying a properly [*10] conducted warrantless blood test. That, however, is a reason to decide each case on its facts, as we did in Schmerber, not to accept the “considerable overgeneralization” that a per se rule would reflect. Richards, 520 U. S., at 393. The context of blood testing is different in critical respects from other destruction-of-evidence cases in which the police are truly confronted with a “‘now or never’” situation. Roaden v. Kentucky, 413 U. S. 496, 505 (1973). In contrast to, for example, circumstances in which the suspect has control over easily disposable evidence, see Georgia v. Randolph, 547 U. S. 103, 116, n. 6 (2006); Cupp, 412 U. S., at 296, BAC evidence from a drunk driving suspect naturally dissipates over time in a gradual and relatively predictable manner. Moreover, because a police officer must typically transport a drunk-driving suspect to a medical facility and obtain the assistance of someone with appropriate medical training before conducting a blood test, some delay between the time of the arrest or accident and the time of the test is inevitable regardless of whether police officers are required to obtain a warrant. See State v. Shriner, 751 N. W. 2d 538, 554 (Minn. 2008) (Meyer, J., dissenting). This reality undermines the force of the State’s contention, endorsed by the dissent, see post, at 3 (opinion of THOMAS, J.), that we should recognize a categorical exception to the warrant requirement because BAC evidence “is actively being destroyed with every minute that passes.” Brief for Petitioner 27. Consider, for example, a situation in which the warrant process will not significantly increase the delay before the blood test is conducted because an officer can take steps to secure a warrant while the suspect is being transported to a medical facility by another officer. In such a circumstance, there would be no plausible justification for an exception to the warrant requirement. The State’s proposed per se rule also fails to account for [*11] advances in the 47 years since Schmerber was decided that allow for the more expeditious processing of warrant applications, particularly in contexts like drunk-driving investigations where the evidence offered to establish probable cause is simple. The Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure were amended in 1977 to permit federal magistrate judges to issue a warrant based on sworn testimony communicated by telephone. See 91 Stat. 319. As amended, the law now allows a federal magistrate judge to consider “information communicated by telephone or other reliable electronic means.” Fed. Rule Crim. Proc. 4.1. States have also innovated. Well over a majority of States allow police officers or prosecutors to apply for search warrants remotely through various means, including telephonic or radio communication, electronic communication such as e-mail, and video conferencing. Schmerber is deprecated by McNeely and technology. Clearly noted is, And,
The trucker was transported first by ambulance, then by air ambulance from Logan to SLC's university hospital. That had to take at least 2 hours. And no one tried to get a warrant, just to get the blood by intimidation. Recall that Rotten Cop said on video, "they don't have PC (probable cause)". I'd like to know if they tried for a warrant with a judge and got turned down or if they knew they'd get shot down and just tried to intimidate the nurse instead.
As always, an interesting discussion. It all too often takes a tragedy to get us thinkin'. Maybe it's time to take a momemt's thought for one of the forgotten victims in this misadventure. Ten bucks is not a lot of money:
Correct. But the court ruled that, "One recognized exception "applies when '''the exigencies of the situation" ..." Gosh. That implies there are others, doesn't it? Otherwise the court would have ruled, "The only recognized exception "applies when '''the exigencies of the situation" ..." But they didn't. You're acting as though they did. Tell me who's "clueless".
And all that time the alcohol (if any) is being absorbed into the body. You're making a case for exigent circumstances. "And no one tried to get a warrant" Could be that the decision to draw blood hadn't been made yet. When the decision was made (for whatever reason) they were running out of time.
What did the decision say about a warrantless blood draw from a dead person who had previously given his implied consent? What did it say about a warrantless blood draw from an unconscious person who had previously given his implied consent?
It just as easily makes the case that his BAC would be so low after several hours that it would be pointless to test it, from the standpoint of getting a conviction on DUI. Personally, I think they were playing the odds, hoping he was on some medication or had a medical condition that they could argue left him impaired to some extent.
Possibly. But he may have started with a high BAC. Doesn't hurt to check. "Personally, I think they were playing the odds, hoping he was on some medication or had a medical condition that they could argue left him impaired to some extent." I have no idea if they were trying to help him, harm him or simply following police department procedure in traffic accidents involving a fatality. Moot point. If, as you say, the blood draw was unconstitutional, it would never be admitted as evidence. Right?
I think we may as well wait to see what the FBI and SLCPD investigations turn up. We really are just repeating ourselves mostly. Even if I did note yesterday the bit about Rotten Supervisor still trying to persuade Nurse GoodBody while under arrest to let Rotten Cop draw blood. That was new but was just speculation really.
You are so clueless, you don't know you are clueless.
You need a search warrant or exigent circumstances to puncture the skin and draw blood for evidentiary purposes. Read McNeely until the 4th Amendment sinks in.
In case you missed it, Detective Jeff Payne was fired from his job as a paramedic, he was placed on administrative leave, and a criminal investigation was opened at the request of the DA. By Luke Ramseth [excerpt] Salt Lake City police Detective Jeff Payne has been fired from his part-time paramedic job as the fallout continues from his arrest of a University Hospital nurse in July. [...] “Although Jeff was not working for Gold Cross Ambulance at the time of the incident, we take his inappropriate remarks regarding patient transports seriously,” according to a Tuesday company statement about the termination. Meanwhile, Payne has been placed on administrative leave by the Salt Lake Police Department, pending an internal investigation and another probe by the city’s civilian review board. Also, Salt Lake County’s Unified Police Department has opened a criminal investigation at the request of Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill.
Separate issue. He threatened to take all of his indigent patients to that hospital. Not a smart move on his part, but it had ZERO to do with what happened at the hospital. "he was placed on administrative leave" He was placed on administrative leave with pay which is SOP in cases like these. And you f**king know that. "and a criminal investigation was opened at the request of the DA." Only because of public sympathy and pressure due to misinformation from the MSM. The DA has no case. When the truth emerges, he'll join Mike Nifong if he pursues it.
Even on a dead person?
Only because of public sympathy and pressure due to misinformation from the MSM. The DA has no case. Good luck with your delusions.
You do realize that your quote appears nowhere in the opinion of the court and does not constitute a ruling of the court on anything? All you have proved is that you do not know how to read a court opinion.
The subject of the instant case was not dead. McNeely struck down warrantless blood draws in all 50 states except under exigent circumstances. Here, John Giofreddi, a DWI attorney at the Dallas Bar Association website explains how McNeely "gutted the Texas mandatory blood statute." http://www.dallasbar.org/book-page/dwi-arrests-when-can-police-take-your-blood-against-your-will Dallas Bar Association Mon, 04/27/2015 - 13:39 -- jsmith by John Gioffredi [excerpt] The mandatory blood draw statute has since been amended to require a mandatory breath or blood test of the suspect whenever the officer reasonably believes that as a direct result of a DWI accident, a person has died or will die; an individual other than the suspect has suffered serious bodily injury; or an individual other than the suspect has suffered bodily injury and been transported to a hospital or other medical facility for medical treatment. The statute also requires a mandatory breath or blood test if, at the time of the arrest, the officer possesses or receives reliable information from a credible source that the person has been previously convicted of or placed on community supervision for DWI with Child Passenger, Intoxication Assault, Intoxication Manslaughter or any two previous DWI cases. So basically, the mandatory blood statute as it is currently worded requires a breath or blood specimen on any DWI which is a felony, or any person who has previously been convicted of a felony DWI or related charges of intoxication assault or intoxication manslaughter. However, the Texas mandatory blood draw statute has been largely gutted as the result of two recent landmark cases. In April 2013 the U.S. Supreme Court held in Missouri v. McNeely (133 S.Ct. 1552) that when officers can reasonably obtain a warrant before obtaining a DWI blood sample without significantly undermining the efficacy of the search, the Constitution mandates that they do so. On November 26, 2014, in a 5 to 4 decision, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals followed suit in State v. Villarreal (No. PD-0306-14) holding that “a nonconsensual search of a DWI suspect’s blood conducted pursuant to the mandatory blood draw and implied consent provisions in the Transportation Code, when undertaken in the absence of a warrant or any applicable exception to the warrant requirement, violates the Fourth Amendment.” So as of now, in March of 2015, for the results of a DWI blood test to be admissible, the prosecution would have the burden of showing that the suspect consented to the blood draw, that a warrant for the blood was legally obtained, or that obtaining a warrant under the circumstances would have been unreasonably burdensome due to factors specific to that particular arrest. Circumstances that might excuse a non-consensual warrantless blood draw might include the non-availability of a magistrate to sign the search warrant or an emergency medical situation for someone injured in a DWI accident, if no other officers were available to tend to such matters.
I think they might run afoul of the courts even with a dead person. There is always their estate to consider and family who might not want the body touched for any reason. Why not just go to a judge and get a warrant? In the case of a dead person, that blood will keep for hours and the BAC or drugs in their system would not be metabolized out.
If they are not a coroner.
Sure it does. "As noted, the warrant requirement is subject to exceptions. “One well-recognized exception,” and the one at issue in this case, “applies when the exigencies of the situation make the needs of law enforcement so compelling that a warrantless search is objectively reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.” What this shows is that you are clueless.
So is there an exception for a dead person or not? We don't know. The court didn't say. Meaning there could be other exceptions. My point is, exigent circumstances isn't the only exception. The court said is was one exception.
And I think they won't.
I was reading a Townhall ICYMI catchup piece on this incident and noticed this: I have no idea who he is or if he knows what he is talking about (his Twitter profile sez: "MA environment/energy litigator. Trials, appeals, plaintiff, defense, you name it."). But it would be interesting to know if Utah Highway Patrol does have an express policy against high-speed pursuits like the one in which the perp crashed into the trucker. Lots of PDs do have such a policy, especially in metro areas. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of a state's highway patrol having such a policy.
Did all this happen in Texas? I thought it happened in Utah. Why are you citing Texas law?
Maybe nolu can explain to you how this thing called Supreme Court precedents works. LOL
He doesn't. He's an asshole.
Irony.
The Supreme Court cited one exception to a warrantless blood draw -- exigent circumstances. They did not say that was the only exception, meaning there are more. Do you know them all? Is one of them a blood draw on a dead person with implied consent? Is one of them a blood draw on an unconscious person with implied consent? Do you know or would you be guessing?
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you were an asshole for posting the shittiest cite I have ever come across.
Generally, when they cite exceptions, they'll cite all that are applicable. Since "exigent circumstances" is itself quite vague, that would their one exception, even if it might cover a dozen or more actual instances of exigency. These guys in robes are professional word choppers. You can assume that they say what they mean, no more or less. If we don't understand them, it's probably our fault that we don't or we are not conversant with the entire area of law about which they are issuing a ruling.
They rule as narrowly as possible. The case before them involved exigent circumstances. So they ruled on that, clarifying the way that exception must be be be used. That's it. They said nothing about other exceptions other than they exist.
Not always. When it suits them, they do. It's a technical point. And they would all be "exigent" since they would be in cases lacking a warrant. I think it wouldn't matter what the Court ruled, you'd be looking for a way out of recognizing it, like a trapped rat.
#2. To: kenh (#0)
(Edited)
#3. To: kenh, misterwhite, Vicomte13, nolu chan, hondo68, Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#0)
“There continue to be issues that go beyond merely a criminal investigation, and, in an effort to address those concerns, the Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office has formally asked for assistance from our Federal law enforcement partners to fully vet issues only they can investigate,” Gill stated. “The decision for this was arrived over the Labor Day weekend and a formal letter requesting this assistance was sent out Sept. 6, 2017."
#4. To: (#0)
#5. To: misterwhite (#0)
State of Utah 41-6a-522. Person incapable of refusal.
#6. To: Vicomte13 (#4)
(Edited)
If they admit they were wrong and admit they exceeded their authority, publicly, then I am willing to let them get on with their lives.
#7. To: Tooconservative (#6)
Your sympathy is misplaced. Both have undoubtedly sent people to jail or prison, ruined lives, for doing less than what they tried to do.
#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)
(Edited)
#9. To: kenh, nolu chan, Vicomte13, Pinguinite, misterwhite, misterwhite, paging misterwhite... (#0)
(Edited)
I knew it had to be civil rights if they brought the FBI in.
Salt Lake district attorney asks FBI to investigate confrontation between cop and nurse for potential civil-rights violations
The Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office, as part of its review of the circumstances of the arrest of a University Hospital nurse by a Salt Lake City police officer, has asked the FBI to investigate the case for any potential civil rights violations.
#10. To: Tooconservative, kenh, misterwhite, Vicomte13, hondo68, Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#3)
Also telling is the mention that this goes beyond a criminal investigation. And what exactly might that be?
#11. To: nolu chan (#10)
(Edited)
Monstrous punitive damages in civil litigation. The municipality is on the hook, big time.
Consider the possibility of looking back to find cases where the nurse did not say NO.
#12. To: Tooconservative (#11)
This blood draw incident with the nurse was SLC's entire involvement. Could it get any more boneheaded?
#13. To: nolu chan, hondo68 (#12)
(Edited)
#14. To: nolu chan, Lemonade Police (#10)
looking back to find cases where the nurse did not say NO.
#15. To: Tooconservative (#8)
You're confusing me. One post, burn them. Next post, forgive them if they apologize. Next post, burn 'em.
#16. To: Tooconservative (#8)
The political heat in SLC must be off the charts
#17. To: Vicomte13 (#16)
(Edited)
#18. To: Tooconservative (#17)
(Edited)
#19. To: Tooconservative (#17)
#20. To: hondo68 (#19)
(Edited)
We had a gasoline engine powered one on the farm, that had been upgraded to Briggs & Stratton. That about doubled the danger factor.
#21. To: Tooconservative (#13)
It seems to me that a detective has to be responsible for knowing the law and any recent USSC decisions involving specialist certification they hold.
#22. To: hondo68 (#14)
Maybe she operated an illegal lemonade stand when she was a kid?
#23. To: nolu chan (#10)
Monstrous punitive damages in civil litigation. The municipality is on the hook, big time. Consider the possibility of looking back to find cases where the nurse did not say NO.
#24. To: nolu chan (#21)
They do not need the FBI to sort out the one cop.
#25. To: nolu chan (#21)
The employing municipality is required to insure that all its police officers know the law that they are enforcing. Blowing it off, or gun decking it, can be expensive. So can giving bass ackwards instructions. They do not need the FBI to sort out the one cop.
#26. To: Tooconservative (#9)
Salt Lake district attorney asks FBI to investigate confrontation between cop and nurse for potential civil-rights violations
#27. To: Pinguinite (#23)
In the case of Wubbels, it appears she is a TRUE public servant and at least hesitant to file any civil lawsuit over the event, instead choosing the high road of using her experience to make the world a better place.
#28. To: Tooconservative (#5)
overruling the two major decisions of the Supreme Court over the last 4 years.
#29. To: misterwhite (#28)
Didn't one of those decisions concern exigent circumstances?
#30. To: misterwhite (#27)
So far. I'll mark your "high road" post for reference later.
#31. To: Pinguinite (#30)
What for?
#32. To: Tooconservative (#29)
But it downplayed the use of exigent circumstances
#33. To: Tooconservative (#20)
(Edited)
Surely it didn't run the agitator or the wringer directly.
Maytag gear jammer...
#34. To: misterwhite (#31)
I'll mark this one for later reference also. What for? Same reason.
#35. To: Pinguinite (#34)
I didn't say she wouldn't sue. I said she was at least hesitant to sue.
#36. To: misterwhite, Toooconservative, Pinguinite (#26)
[Pinguinite #23] In the case of Wubbels, it appears she is a TRUE public servant and at least hesitant to file any civil lawsuit over the event, instead choosing the high road of using her experience to make the world a better place.
[misterwhite #25] He was acting under departmental procedure and the State of Utah law as written. She obstructed and then resisted arrest. This is insane.
2nd Utah police officer put on administrative duty over nurse arrest
Fox News
#37. To: Tooconservative (#25)
But if the trail leads to a conspiracy to deprive the trucker and/or nurse of their civil rights, they couldn't just refer this to the Utah AG. And the Logan PD and Utah highway patrol are mostly beyond their jurisdiction as SLC prosecutors. So the FBI would be needed for a scenario like that.
Logan police didn’t push for blood draw, chief tells CNN after SLC mayor rebukes handling of officer’s leave
St. Louis Tribune
September 7, 2017
#38. To: nolu chan (#36)
Recall that TWO officers have been placed on administrative leave (with pay).
#39. To: misterwhite (#38)
Isn't that standard in these types of cases? Or do you read something sinister into it?
#40. To: nolu chan (#37)
Logan Police Chief Gary Jensen told CNN on Wednesday that Payne had called a Logan detective to say that he was having a tough time getting the blood. According to Jensen, the detective told Payne not to worry about it, because Logan could get the blood through other means.
#41. To: Tooconservative (#40)
You have to wonder if they did eventually find a way to get the blood via other means.
#42. To: nolu chan (#39)
Did you happen to notice one is a Lieutenant? Read: Salt Lake City liability.
#43. To: misterwhite (#42)
FIRE THEM!! TAKE THEIR HOUSES!! THROW THEM IN JAIL!!
#44. To: buckeroo (#43)
We need you performing your otherwise cool, collected unmistakable love for the UBER AMRERICA POLICE STATE!
#45. To: misterwhite (#44)
I know you're all counting on me.
#46. To: misterwhite (#42)
So they BOTH thought the law and police department policy were on their side. WTF is going on here? Why are these two being blamed for acting within accepted protocol?
#47. To: nolu chan (#46)
A jackass in power "authorizing" an unconstitutional act does not make it constitutional.
#48. To: misterwhite (#47)
Why SLC? hy not the State of Utah? It's their statute.
#49. To: nolu chan (#48)
The brain dead misreading of the statute by the SLC lieutenant, the detective, and yourself yields an unconstitutional, criminal result. And, of course, massive liability for Salt Lake City who employs those two blockheads. SLC should consider hiring the nurse to babysit them.
#50. To: Tooconservative (#49)
:You have to wonder why they went so far over the line for an accident that occurred in Logan ..."
#51. To: nolu chan (#48)
The Utah statute is legal and constitutional.
#52. To: misterwhite (#51)
#53. To: A K A Stone (#52)
Why do you almost always side with evil?
#54. To: misterwhite (#53)
#55. To: misterwhite (#50)
You still gnawin' on that old bone?
#56. To: Tooconservative (#55)
You mean the old bone that an SLC detective and his supervisor violated a nurse's rights and placed her under false arrest while trying to violate an accident victim's 4th Amendment rights, all for an accident that didn't occur in SLC jurisdiction and when the there was no probable cause that the victim was an impaired driver?
#57. To: misterwhite (#56)
Can't blame the cop for that.
#58. To: misterwhite (#56)
It could be that police departmental policy is that any vehicular accident involving a fatality gives probable cause to draw blood from an unconscious or dead driver. Perhaps that's the policy that's now changed.
#59. To: Tooconservative (#58)
You're just making shit up out of thin air.
#60. To: misterwhite (#59)
#61. To: Tooconservative (#60)
I say the nurse wins, pretty much across the board. Including if she files a lawsuit for a fat settlement from SLC PD.
#62. To: misterwhite (#61)
#63. To: Tooconservative (#62)
They'll cave because their city attorney will tell them they're going to lose badly on the merits.
#64. To: misterwhite (#63)
#65. To: misterwhite (#51)
The one that said they can draw blood from an unconscious driver?
#66. To: Tooconservative (#49)
I can't really imagine how or why they went so far in this case when it wasn't even their case to begin with.
#67. To: misterwhite, A K A Stone (#53)
I am citing the law which explains the behavior.
#68. To: nolu chan (#66)
Could the accident be blamed on a drunk truck driver?
#69. To: nolu chan (#67)
(Edited)
Alcohol dissipation cannot be considered exigent circumstances.
#70. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#63)
Keep in mind, that is the intent of fourth amendment protections -- to prevent evidence being used against you in a court of law.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
#71. To: misterwhite, nolu chan (#63)
(Edited)
The nurse didn't have the legal power to obstruct a police investigation. She exceeded her authority. For that she was
briefly falsely arrested. Briefly. Had SHE not resisted that arrest, things would have gone smoothly.
#72. To: Tooconservative (#71)
What investigation?
#73. To: misterwhite, nolu chan (#72)
Why, the accident of course. Not paying attention?
They were assisting Logan PD by sending their trained phlebologist to legally collect a blood sample from an unconscious driver who was transported to the hospital.
#74. To: misterwhite, Tooconservative (#63)
I'm sure the police department will be able to point to dozens of prior instances where they drew blood without incident. They can point to state law. They can point to departmental policy. Both Detective Jeff Payne and his supervisor believed they were operating within legal parameters, even to the point where Payne's supervisor ordered the nurse arrested for obstruction.
(a) The principle that a warrantless search of the person is reasonable only if it falls within a recognized exception, see, e.g., United States v. Robinson, 414 U. S. 218, 224, applies here, where the search involved a compelled physical intrusion beneath McNeely's skin and into his veins to obtain a blood sample to use as evidence in a criminal investigation. One recognized exception "applies when '''the exigencies of the situation" make the needs of law enforcement so compelling that [a] warrantless search is objectively reasonable.'" Kentucky v. King, 563 U. S. _, _.
II
To determine whether a law enforcement officer faced an emergency that justified acting without a warrant, this Court looks to the totality of circumstances. See Brigham City v. Stuart, 547 U. S. 398, 406 (2006) (finding officers’ entry into a home to provide emergency assistance “plainly reasonable under the circumstances”); Illinois v. Mc-Arthur, 531 U. S. 326, 331 (2001) (concluding that a warrantless seizure of a person to prevent him from returning to his trailer to destroy hidden contraband was reasonable “[i]n the circumstances of the case before us” due to exigency); Cupp, 412 U. S., at 296 (holding that a limited warrantless search of a suspect’s fingernails to preserve evidence that the suspect was trying to rub off was justified “[o]n the facts of this case”); see also Richards v. Wisconsin, 520 U. S. 385, 391–396 (1997) (rejecting a per se exception to the knock-and-announce requirement for felony drug investigations based on presumed exigency, and requiring instead evaluation of police conduct “in a particular case”). We apply this “finely tuned approach”to Fourth Amendment reasonableness in this context because the police action at issue lacks “the traditional justification that . . . a warrant . . . provides.” Atwater v. Lago Vista, 532 U. S. 318, 347, n. 16 (2001). Absent that established justification, “the fact-specific nature of the reasonableness inquiry,” Ohio v. Robinette, 519 U. S. 33, 39 (1996), demands that we evaluate each case of alleged exigency based “on its own facts and circumstances.” Go-Bart Importing Co. v. United States, 282 U. S. 344, 357 [*7] (1931).
In those drunk-driving investigations where police officers can reasonably obtain a warrant before a blood sample can be drawn without significantly undermining the efficacy of the search, the Fourth Amendment mandates that they do so.
The State’s proposed per se rule also fails to account for [*11] advances in the 47 years since Schmerber was decided that allow for the more expeditious processing of warrant applications, particularly in contexts like drunk-driving investigations where the evidence offered to establish probable cause is simple.
#75. To: nolu chan (#74)
(Edited)
[nc] In the instant case there was time to get a warrant. The detective did not even try.
#76. To: Tooconservative, All (#75)
#77. To: nolu chan (#74)
You have admitted there is no claimed exception of exigent circumstances.
#78. To: Tooconservative (#75)
That had to take at least 2 hours.
#79. To: nolu chan (#74)
Missouri v. McNeely, S. Ct. 11-1425, 569 U.S. ____ (17 Apr 2013)
#80. To: misterwhite (#78)
And all that time the alcohol (if any) is being absorbed into the body. You're making a case for exigent circumstances.
#81. To: Tooconservative (#80)
It just as easily makes the case that his BAC would be so low after several hours that it would be pointless to test it, from the standpoint of getting a conviction on DUI.
#82. To: misterwhite (#81)
#83. To: misterwhite (#77)
Tell me who's "clueless".
#84. To: misterwhite (#79)
What did it say about a warrantless blood draw from an unconscious person who had previously given his implied consent?
#85. To: Tooconservative, misterwhite (#82)
I think we may as well wait to see what the FBI and SLCPD investigations turn up.
SLC cop who threatened to ‘take good patients elsewhere’ before arresting Utah nurse gets fired from his paramedic job
6 days ago [nc - 6 Sep]
#86. To: nolu chan (#85)
Detective Jeff Payne was fired from his job as a paramedic
#87. To: nolu chan (#84)
You need a search warrant or exigent circumstances to puncture the skin and draw blood for evidentiary purposes.
#88. To: misterwhite (#86)
and a criminal investigation was opened at the request of the DA."
#89. To: misterwhite (#77)
Correct. But the court ruled that, "One recognized exception "applies when '''the exigencies of the situation" ..."
#90. To: misterwhite (#87)
Even on a dead person?
DWI Arrests: When Can the Police Take Your Blood Against Your Will?
#91. To: nolu chan (#90)
The subject of the instant case was not dead.
#92. To: Tooconservative (#91)
I think they might run afoul of the courts even with a dead person.
#93. To: nolu chan (#89)
You do realize that your quote appears nowhere in the opinion of the court and does not constitute a ruling of the court on anything?
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/569/11-1425/opinion3.html
#94. To: nolu chan (#90)
The subject of the instant case was not dead.
#95. To: Tooconservative (#91)
I think they might run afoul of the courts even with a dead person.
#96. To: misterwhite, nolu chan (#93)
(Edited)
The patient was the victim of a head on car crash, instigated by a high speed police pursuit against department policy— Owen Barcala (@obarcala) September 2, 2017
#97. To: nolu chan (#90)
#98. To: misterwhite (#97)
#99. To: Tooconservative (#96)
I have no idea who he is or if he knows what he is talking about
#100. To: misterwhite (#99)
#101. To: Tooconservative (#98)
Maybe nolu can explain to you how this thing called Supreme Court precedents works. LOL
#102. To: Tooconservative (#100)
Irony.
#103. To: misterwhite (#101)
The Supreme Court cited one exception to a warrantless blood draw -- exigent circumstances. They did not say that was the only exception, meaning there are more. Do you know them all?
#104. To: Tooconservative (#103)
Generally, when they cite exceptions, they'll cite all that are applicable.
#105. To: misterwhite (#104)
They rule as narrowly as possible.
They said nothing about other exceptions other than they exist.
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