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Title: Arrested Utah Nurse Had It Coming
Source:
Saily Caller
URL Source: http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/04/arrested-utah-nurse-had-it-coming/
Published: Sep 4, 2017
Author: Gregg RE, Associate editor
Post Date: 2017-09-04 18:49:15 by misterwhite
Keywords: None
Views: 19669
Comments: 123
The near-universal outrage surrounding the arrest of Alex Wubbels, the Salt Lake City nurse who was arrested July 26 for refusing to let police officers draw blood from an unconscious crash victim, empowered Wubbels and her attorney to threaten legal action against the police on CNN’s “New Day” on Monday. At the very least, Wubbels says, she’d like to “re-educate” the police department on proper procedure. Prospective students are advised to steer clear of Wubbels’ courses. Despite reams of inaccurate reporting on the incident, Wubbels was likely legally wrong to obstruct the police officer. The case is a much closer one than it appears. In a widely-seen video documenting her arrest, Wubbels calmly tells a police officer, Jeff Payne, that hospital policy permits the police to draw blood from patients in only three instances: when the patient consents, when the patient is under arrest, or when the police officer has a warrant. After a hospital administrator tells Payne he is making a “mistake” by insisting he has the right to obtain the blood, Payne arrests the nurse, who howls her way outside of the building and proceeds to put the “salt” in Salt Lake City. The hospital’s policy does not have the force of law, even if the local police department agreed to its terms. And crucially, the policy overlooks a well-established exception to the warrant requirement: Police simply do not need a warrant if exigent circumstances justify an urgent search and seizure of evidence. The imminent loss of blood evidence, which would be useful in a drunk-driving case, qualifies as a potentially exigent circumstance. A quick hypothetical. Let’s say you’re watching an unlikely UCLA comeback in the peace and quiet of your own home on the day before Labor Day, when suddenly your neighbor bursts through your front door with a pile of drugs in his hands. You hear police sirens in the background, and your neighbor says, “They’re coming for me!” As your neighbor busies himself by tossing his cocaine into your toilet, the doorbell rings, and the police request to come inside. They’ve seen your neighbor running into your house with what they suspect are drugs. “A-ha,” you say. “I have a policy. No police in my house without my consent, or a warrant, or unless I’m under arrest.” The police would be justified in pushing you aside – even breaking your door down if necessary – to get to your bathroom. As long as a reasonable person would conclude that evidence is in imminent risk of destruction, the police can enter your home for the limited purpose of preventing that destruction. If you actively impeded their access to the bathroom, you would likely find yourself at least temporarily detained. (Wubbels was only detained for approximately twenty minutes). In its reporting of this incident, The New York Times falsely claimed that “the United States Supreme Court ruled that the police do not have the right to draw blood in drunk driving investigations without a warrant.” But the case the Times cites, Missouri v. McNeely, does not stand for that proposition at all. The court explicitly held in McNeely that some drunk-driving cases could permit warrantless blood draws. “When officers in drunk-driving investigations can reasonably obtain a warrant before having a blood sample drawn without significantly undermining the efficacy of the search, the Fourth Amendment mandates that they do so,” the Court wrote. “Circumstances may make obtaining a warrant impractical such that the alcohol’s dissipation will support an exigency, but that is a reason to decide each case on its facts….” There are some more complicated questions at play here. The police are on far shakier ground if they demanded the nurse to draw blood for them, as opposed to the police drawing the blood themselves. But the video suggests that the police wanted to draw blood here. “If she interferes in any way with me getting the blood drawn, she needs to be arrested,” an officer says early on in the video. And The Washington Post has reported that Payne is a trained police phlebotomist, meaning that he is sent to hospitals to collect blood from patients and check for illicit substances. But the coverage of this incident has focused so much on outrage that outlets cannot agree on even this basic factual issue. CNN has reported that the nurse “refused to let police officers draw blood.” The New York Times reported that the nurse was arrested after “refusing to draw patient’s blood.” News outlets cannot even agree on who was going to draw the blood. Officer Payne is now on paid administrative leave. The chief of the Salt Lake City police department has said he is “alarmed” and “sorry.” There is talk of lawsuits and criminal investigation. The mayor of Salt Lake City has called the arrest “completely unacceptable” and apologized. These are moves are necessitated not by the law, but public relations. Wubbels says in the video that “you can’t put me under arrest.” Unfortunately, and only because she is a sympathetic nurse up against a faceless Officer Payne in the YouTube era, she may have been right.
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#4. To: misterwhite (#0)
Sophistry. The Supreme Court is the final authority on what the Constitution is. The Supreme Court has ruled on the subject matter. The cop acted illegally. He's toast. The supervisor who told him to do it is likewise going to suffer important consequences. It's all much for the good. And because the cop also threatened his other employer, the EMT services, he will probably also lose that job.
If you haven't already, you should read the comments. This dimwit is getting absolutely roasted.
I did read them as well as the comments at YouTube on their videos and a few other sites that covered this story. And I read a lot of them too. I'd say that comments that support for the nurse and hate on the cops is about 1000:1. If even that. This is one of those stories that starts out very small but quickly grows legs, really completely out of proportion to the incident itself. It has, as they say, struck a nerve.
That they did. But you're misreading the ruling. "The supervisor who told him to do it is likewise going to suffer important consequences." I don't see why. They were both operating under department policy. Which has now been changed. "And because the cop also threatened his other employer, the EMT services, he will probably also lose that job." How did he threaten his employer? I read something about taking all the transients to that hospital.
A bit more on how the incident started from Fox13 in Salt Lake City. According to the Logan Police Department, officers responded to 6200 South and Highway 89/91 in Wellsville after the deadly crash. The crash occurred after Utah Highway Patrol received numerous 911 calls reporting an erratic driver, and troopers attempted a traffic stop on a black Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck. The driver of the pickup truck fled from troopers, and during the ensuing pursuit the driver veered into the oncoming lanes and struck a semi-truck head on. . . .
The driver of the pickup truck fled from troopers, and during the ensuing pursuit the driver veered into the oncoming lanes and struck a semi-truck head on. So - the driver of the semi-truck was the guy who was seriously burned in a reckless police chase and was guilty of nothing except for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My theory still stands - the cops wanted to find something to charge the semi-truck driver with so that their actions that caused the crashed would be justified. If indeed they had taken the man's blood, they would have used the fact that he was most likely on medication administered by the hospital as proof that he was DWI. A bit more, quoting the WaPo article. Rotten Cop admits he and Logan PD have no probable cause to draw the victim's blood at all, an absolute requirement under Utah law. This escaped my notice when I watched earlier. A group of hospital officials, security guards and nurses are seen pacing nervously in the ward. Payne can be seen standing in a doorway, arms folded over his black polo shirt, waiting as hospital officials talk on the phone. “So why don’t we just write a search warrant,” the officer wearing the body camera says to Payne. “They don’t have PC,” Payne responds, using the abbreviation for probable cause, which police must have to get a warrant for search and seizure. He adds that he plans to arrest the nurse if she doesn’t allow him to draw blood. “I’ve never gone this far,” he says. After several minutes, Wubbels shows Payne and the other officer a printout of the hospital’s policy on obtaining blood samples from patients. With her supervisor on speakerphone, she calmly tells them they can’t proceed unless they have a warrant or patient consent, or if the patient is under arrest. “The patient can’t consent, he’s told me repeatedly that he doesn’t have a warrant, and the patient is not under arrest,” she says. “So I’m just trying to do what I’m supposed to do, that’s all.” “So I take it without those in place, I’m not going to get blood,” Payne says. Wubbels’s supervisor chimes in on the speakerphone. “Why are you blaming the messenger,” he asks Payne. “She’s the one that has told me no,” the officer responds. “Sir, you’re making a huge mistake because you’re threatening a nurse,” Wubbels’s supervisor says over the phone. At that point, Payne seems to lose it. He paces toward the nurse and tries to swat the phone out of her hand. “We’re done here,” he yells. He grabs Wubbels by the arms and shoves her through the automatic doors outside the building. This appears to be a case of a conspiracy by UHP, Logan PD, and SLCUPD to knowingly deprive a crime victim of his constitutional rights. There will be big lawsuits filed against all three organizations.
Ask any one of those 1000 what happened and they'd say the cop tried to force her to draw blood and when she told them it was against hospital policy to do so, they had her arrested. That's the power of fake news. Hell, if that were true, even I would be on her side.
And what if the pickup driver veered off the road and hit a tree? Sample the tree? What a moron. My theory is that it's police departmental policy to draw blood of all drivers in any accident involving death. For the record, and for use in possible future lawsuits. Better to have and not need, than need and not have.
If indeed they had taken the man's blood, they would have used the fact that he was most likely on medication administered by the hospital as proof that he was DWI. I think you're right. You see this theory mentioned steadily in the comments threads at the news sites and YouTube. Since it was Utah highway patrol that chased the perp into oncoming traffic where he hit the semi, they were the ones with legal liability issues here. Not the Logan PD which was not involved in the chase at all, at least not in any reporting that I've read. I think some watch commander at UHP decided to play the odds that the truck driver was on some legal or illegal drug or was in some way impaired so they could bargain down a settlement with the victim in a lawsuit. So the UHP commander calls up the Logan PD (in whose jurisdiction the accident occurred) and asks them to get a blood sample. Logan PD agrees to do so but the victim is already gone to the university hospital. So the Logan PD calls up their go-to guy at SLCUPD, the supervisor of Rotten Cop, who then sends out Rotten Cop to get that blood sample, come hell or high water. This was all done knowing that the patient could not give consent (unconscious and on so many pain drugs that he probably could not give consent anyway), that he was not under arrest, and that UHP/Logan PD/SLCUPD had absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect him of anything to give them grounds to compel a blood sample from the victim. Which Rotten Cop tried to pretend that he was doing to "protect" the victim. There is almost certainly a wide-ranging conspiracy here by UHP, Logan PD, and SLCUPD to knowingly and deliberately deprive the victim of his 4th Amendment rights. It's the role of Utah highway patrol that has not come to light yet. But I think it will. This was not cooked up by Logan PD or SLCUPD, they were merely accomplices and agents of the UHP. IMO.
Hell, if that were true, even I would be on her side. The majority seem to grasp the facts pretty well. It is obvious that you are trying to pretend this is just a hullabaloo by ignorant mobs on the internet to gin up an anti-police scandal. But they aren't that ignorant of the facts, even if you think there is some advantage in pretending that they are.
41-6a-522. Person incapable of refusal. Any person who is dead, unconscious, or in any other condition rendering the person incapable of refusal to submit to any chemical test or tests is considered to not have withdrawn the consent provided for in Subsection 41-6a-5 520(1), and the test or tests may be administered whether the person has been arrested or not. https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S522.html Pesky facts.
I'm not misreading the ruling. That will be clear at the end of all of this: the cop will not be vindicated. He will be crucified. Yes, he threatened his employers by taking all of the transients to that hospital.
Unconstitutional. A void law.
The majority believe what they're told. And they're told by fake news that the cop tried to force her to draw blood in violation of hospital policy, and arrested her when she refused. 'Somebody Help Me!' Nurse Arrested After Refusing to Draw Blood Utah Nurse Handcuffed After Refusing to Draw Patient’s Blood Utah nurse arrested for refusing detective's order considering lawsuit And 100 more with similar headlines. "It is obvious that you are trying to pretend this is just a hullabaloo by ignorant mobs on the internet to gin up an anti-police scandal." Nope. Just illustrating the power of fake news to create a hullabaloo by ignorant mobs on the internet to gin up an anti-police scandal.
Utah nurse who was arrested says officer was on a 'warpath' Alex Wubbels, the Utah nurse who was arrested for refusing to draw blood from an unconscious patient in July, recounted to ABC News how she still feels "not safe" since returning to work and believes the detective who arrested her was on a "warpath." Police bodycam footage from the July 26 incident instantly sparked a national outcry when it was released last week. In the video, Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne is seen squaring off against Wubbels, who was working the night shift on the burn unit at Utah University Hospital. That night a man named William Gray was taken to the hospital after suffering severe injuries from a car crash. Wubbels said she tried explaining to Payne that she wouldn't allow Gray's blood to be drawn unless he was under arrest or there was a police warrant. When Wubbels defended the hospital's policy, buttressed by a 2016 Supreme Court ruling citing that warrantless blood draws are a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment, she was rebuffed. He comes down from the mountain and speaks! Heed his words! (A U.S. Supreme Court ruling would add a little credibility to your words.)
Pesky facts. Implied consent and probably cause are two different animals. The former does not come into operation until the latter is determined to exist.
Exactly. Just some cruft that has not been repealed. Sometimes this is just sloppiness by legislators, other times I think they leave these unconstitutional laws on the books just to bamboozle victims of unconstitutional searches by telling this "this is the law".
Really? She was arrested for refusing to draw blood from an unconscious patient? Is that what happened, or is that what you read? And what Supreme Court ruling are you referring to?
I can see why she is worried about police retaliation. She has become woke to the fact that UHP, Logan PD, and SLCUPD all conspired to violate the 4th Amendment rights of the patient she was rightfully protecting as a vulnerable person under medical care. She has to realize that their lives would all be a lot easier if something happened to her before any trials begin.
You're right, I think. He admitted on camera that he knew that they had no probable cause (UHP and Logan PD for whom he acted as an agent). And it is clear he plans to rely on a Nuremburg defense, "I was only following the orders of my boss". That rarely works well, especially for a police detective who has received extensive training as it related to his phlebotomist qualifications. Rotten Cop and his supervisor should spend six months to a year in the general population of a Utah state prison. Perhaps along with one or more supervisors from Logan PD and the Utah state patrol. They all had to be in on it. It was a conspiracy.
Probable cause? Why probable cause? Why not reasonable suspicion? Preponderance of the evidence? And good luck finding those things from a dead man. Yet Utah law states that a blood draw may be done on a dead man. How can that be?
He consented to a blood draw when he received his Utah driver's license. That's the law.
Which he needed in order for the hospital to do the blood draw. He was a trained police phlebologist. He didn't need the hospital to do the blood draw. He was qualified to do the blood draw. But the nurse prevented him from doing so. So she was arrested for obstruction. Why didn't she tell the cop that the hospital had already done a blood draw?
Well, you can say that about any law, can't you? What makes you think the Utah State legislature wants it repealed -- other than the fact that it would bolster your argument? All along, on multiple threads, you've been saying they couldn't do a blood draw on an unconscious person. I provide proof they can and your response is that the law is "just some cruft that has not been repealed"? Pathetic. I expected more from you.
No, it isn't. You are apparently too ignorant to understand the actual difference between "consent" and "implied consent". It simply does not mean what you say. All of these state laws use the term "implied consent". What they really want is unfettered consent but the courts (and some legislatures) won't allow it. If the law in Utah (or anywhere) was as you say, there would be no mention of needing probable cause, giving the suspect the right to refuse, etc.
Probable cause nor reasonable suspicion. Either way you try to run it, this was a fishing expedition.
The ruling stated that exigent circumstances alone were not sufficient for a warrantless blood draw. Nothing to do with this case. "Yes, he threatened his employers by taking all of the transients to that hospital. How are his employers threatened by that? The hospital would be pissed, yeah. That's the intent.
You don't know that. As I said before, it could be as simple as departmental policy requiring blood draws of all drivers involved in a fatal accident. Which I happen to agree with, since it then goes into the record and can be used in future litigation.
Fine. He implicitly consented to a blood draw when he received his Utah driver's license. Better? "What they really want is unfettered consent but the courts (and some legislatures) won't allow it." No. All they want is implied consent. This way, if the driver refuses, he can be charged. "If the law in Utah (or anywhere) was as you say, there would be no mention of needing probable cause, giving the suspect the right to refuse, etc." If the law is how YOU say, then how do they get probable cause or the right to refuse from an unconscious person? They can't. Yet the Utah law I cited says they can do a blood draw on an unconscious person. How do you explain that?
I would bet that the university hospital (and others) will all inevitably impose new terms of service on private ambulance companies as a result of this. And the cop will be fired by Gold Cross too. He probably has been already. They don't need the grief from the public or the hospitals. BTW, you haven't mentioned the charges the cop will likely face. https://le.utah.gov/~2016/bills/static/SB0106.html Looks to me like he is guilty of a class A misdemeanor assault of medical personnel. Since she was not injured, he likely will not qualify for a felony charge. Too bad.
Plenty of ways. They might find open containers of alcohol in an accident. Or the driver might reek of alcohol. Or their eyes might be dilated enough to suspect narcotics. Those are just a few of the obvious ones. When the patient is unconscious, they get a warrant. Any metro area like SLC has at least one judge ready to issue warrants in less than a half hour. Yet this cop shows up hours later at the hospital and admits on camera to another cop that they can't apply for a warrant because they lack probable cause. This only heightens his guilt. It does open a question up as to whether the SLCPD or Logan PD or UHP actually did try to get a warrant and got turned down by a judge. That would only increase their guilt and potential criminal/civil penalties.
They won't face any charges. None that won't be thrown out. She obstructed a police officer. She was arrested for obstruction. She then resisted arrest and and the police officer used only the force necessary to place her into the patrol car. You're as bad as the MSM with your made-up facts and your made-up laws. And this is with a video showing you exactly what happened.
This is why we have trials and juries. We'll see in court how happily this works out for the criminal conspirators at SLCUPD, Logan PD, and Utah highway patrol.
The law reads "the test or tests may be administered (on an unconscious person) whether the person has been arrested or not." You need probable cause to arrest. So the law is saying the test or tests may be administered (on an unconscious person) whether there is probable cause or not. "When the patient is unconscious, they get a warrant." The law says nothing about a warrant. You keep insisting that probable cause and/or a warrant is always required for anyone. Then why does the State of Utah have a separate section of the law devoted to dead or unconscious people ... unless the requirements are different?
Yeah. That's what I thought, too. But it looks to me like you already found him "guilty of a class A misdemeanor assault of medical personnel". So I have to wait for a trial and jury, while you're free to immediately find him guilty of assault before he's even been charged.
The Utah law leaves that open. In my reading, the officer can demand a blood test whether the suspect has been arrested or not. Perhaps this was legislative neglect but I think it was deliberate. It increases the incentives for the suspected drunken/drugged driver to honor his implied consent to a blood test even if he hasn't been arrested yet. And it applies the penalties of refusal to any driver who refuses even if they haven't been arrested or charged. Utah intends to punish the refusal itself, even for someone who is innocent of DUI. IMO. This is done to prevent lawyering and sharpshooting by suspects and to curtail civil suits against police. But the Supreme Court does. They do honor some very limited exceptions to warrantless blood draws but only in "exigent circumstances", according to their 2016 decision. In this case, hours had already passed which means there must be some very substantial probable cause to justify a warrantless involuntary blood draw.
Me and 99.9% of America. Good luck finding a jury for this one. And it is like a bad joke to hear you, of all people, try to feign concern over presumption of innocence. We do have some pretty good video here, not just vague or inaccurate initial reporting and questionable eyewitnesses.
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#5. To: Tooconservative (#2)
#6. To: kenh (#5)
If you haven't already, you should read the comments. This dimwit is getting absolutely roasted.
#7. To: Vicomte13 (#4)
The Supreme Court has ruled on the subject matter.
#8. To: All (#6)
. . .
#9. To: Tooconservative (#8)
The crash occurred after Utah Highway Patrol received numerous 911 calls reporting an erratic driver, and troopers attempted a traffic stop on a black Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Those who most loudly denounce Fake News are typically those most aggressively disseminating it.
#10. To: All, Pinguinite, misterwhite, Vicomte13, nolu chan, hondo68, A K A Stone, kenh (#8)
A 19-minute video from the body camera of a fellow officer shows the bitter argument that unfolded on the floor of the hospital’s burn unit. (Things get especially rough around the 6-minute mark).
#11. To: Tooconservative (#6)
I'd say that comments that support for the nurse and hate on the cops is about 1000:1. If even that.
#12. To: Deckard (#9)
My theory still stands - the cops wanted to find something to charge the semi-truck driver with so that their actions that caused the crashed would be justified.
#13. To: Deckard, misterwhite, A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#9)
My theory still stands - the cops wanted to find something to charge the semi-truck driver with so that their actions that caused the crashed would be justified.
#14. To: misterwhite (#11)
Ask any one of those 1000 what happened and they'd say the cop tried to force her to draw blood and when she told them it was against hospital policy to do so, they had her arrested. That's the power of fake news.
#15. To: Tooconservative (#10)
A bit more, quoting the WaPo article. Rotten Cop admits he and Logan PD have no probable cause to draw the victim's blood at all, an absolute requirement under Utah law.
#16. To: misterwhite (#7)
#17. To: misterwhite (#15)
Any person who is dead, unconscious, or in any other condition rendering the person incapable of refusal to submit to any chemical test or tests is considered to not have withdrawn the consent provided for in Subsection 41-6a-5 520(1), and the test or tests may be administered whether the person has been arrested or not.
#18. To: Tooconservative (#14)
-- Time Magazine
-- New York Times
-- New York Daily News
#19. To: Tooconservative. misterwhite (#14)
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Those who most loudly denounce Fake News are typically those most aggressively disseminating it.
#20. To: Vicomte13 (#17)
Unconstitutional. A void law.
#21. To: misterwhite (#15)
https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S522.html
#22. To: Vicomte13, misterwhite (#17)
Unconstitutional. A void law.
#23. To: Deckard (#19)
Alex Wubbels, the Utah nurse who was arrested for refusing to draw blood from an unconscious patient in July,
#24. To: Deckard (#19)
Alex Wubbels, the Utah nurse who was arrested for refusing to draw blood from an unconscious patient in July, recounted to ABC News how she still feels "not safe" since returning to work and believes the detective who arrested her was on a "warpath."
#25. To: Vicomte13 (#16)
(Edited)
I'm not misreading the ruling. That will be clear at the end of all of this: the cop will not be vindicated. He will be crucified.
#26. To: randge (#21)
Implied consent and probably cause are two different animals.
#27. To: Tooconservative (#24)
all conspired to violate the 4th Amendment rights of the patient
#28. To: Tooconservative (#25)
He admitted on camera that he knew that they had no probable cause
#29. To: Tooconservative (#22)
Just some cruft that has not been repealed.
#30. To: misterwhite (#27)
He consented to a blood draw when he received his Utah driver's license. That's the law.
#31. To: misterwhite (#26)
#32. To: Vicomte13 (#16)
I'm not misreading the ruling.
#33. To: randge (#31)
Either way you try to run it, this was a fishing expedition.
#34. To: Tooconservative (#30)
You are apparently too ignorant to understand the actual difference between "consent" and "implied consent".
#35. To: misterwhite, Vicomte13 (#32)
How are his employers threatened by that? The hospital would be pissed, yeah. That's the intent.
#36. To: misterwhite, Vicomte13 (#34)
If the law is how YOU say, then how do they get probable cause or the right to refuse from an unconscious person? They can't.
#37. To: Tooconservative (#35)
BTW, you haven't mentioned the charges the cop will likely face.
#38. To: misterwhite (#37)
#39. To: Deckard (#9)
If indeed they had taken the man's blood, they would have used the fact that he was most likely on medication administered by the hospital as proof that he was DWI.
#40. To: Tooconservative (#36)
(Edited)
#41. To: Tooconservative (#38)
This is why we have trials and juries.
#42. To: misterwhite, Vicomte13 (#40)
You need probable cause to arrest. So the law is saying the test or tests may be administered (on an unconscious person) whether there is probable cause or not.
The law says nothing about a warrant.
#43. To: misterwhite (#41)
(Edited)
But it looks to me like you already found him "guilty of a class A misdemeanor assault of medical personnel".
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