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Bang / Guns
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Title: It fascinates me when people say, “Why won’t gun owners compromise?”
Source: American digest
URL Source: http://americandigest.org/wp/fascin ... compromise-r3druger/#more-2409
Published: Aug 23, 2017
Author: Vanderleun
Post Date: 2017-08-23 01:48:31 by Stoner
Keywords: None
Views: 12373
Comments: 37

Let me throw a document into the equation: The Constitution. Yeah, yeah, old news. You’ve heard it a million times.

Well, when the Constitution says “bear arms,” during the period in which it was signed, it meant bear any kind of weapon. Civilians owned the cannons, not the government.

Every man had a rifle. His own. It was either a family heirloom or a tool used to ensure survival. No one dared take a man’s livelihood.

What’s the difference today? Well, most people don’t own cannons. Civies don’t own tanks, helicopters, stealth fighters, or cruise missiles. So what are we left with? Rifles, pistols, in rare cases grenade launchers (which launch non-explosive rounds) and basically the equivalent to pea shooters against a tank.

Seems like a compromise.

We’re not allowed to own anything, because after all, why would any peaceful citizen need one right?

Wrong.

The reason the Second Amendment was the second, and not the tenth, or the fifth, or what have you, is because without it, no other right is guaranteed. Governments, regardless of country or creed takes any measures necessary to further to own authority. It is a promise of history.

What are we, as citizens, left with to defend ourselves with? Literally, pea shooters.

We are told we are not allowed to own machine guns. We agreed.

We are told we are not allowed to carry Into government buildings. We agree.

We are told we are not allowed to carry in certain national parks. We agree.

We are told we are not allowed to defend ourselves on college campuses, despite after time and time again being slaughtered on supposedly “gun-free” areas, but we agreed.

We are told in the 90s we are not allowed to own (inappropriately labeled and completely undefinable) “assault weapons,” but it passed as we had to suck it up for 10 years.

We are told that we are DENIED the right to walk the streets of the most crime ridden cities without means of protecting ourselves, and once again we are left with little say.

Here’s my question, where is YOUR compromise?

I’m not asking you to actually limit your constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So far WE as gun owners are the ONLY ones doing any kind of compromising.

We’re not forcing anyone to do anything. We’re not holding lawmakers at gun point. However, lawmakers are literally holding gun owners at gunpoint to follow the law.

Yes. The government enforces laws. With police. And police carry guns.

We just want to be left alone. We’re not breaking the law. However we make compromise after compromise which limits are pushed every time a gun law passes.

I don’t see you having to compromise a damn thing. Oh, you’re scared because law abiding citizens carry? Boo hoo. But why are you afraid of people who wish you no harm? Why aren’t you instead afraid of criminals who *ahem* are criminals. And don’t follow the law anyway? You think because you pass a gun law he’ll magically turn in his gun out of guilt or civic duty? You can’t be serious.

Because real American gun owners don’t pose a threat to you.

You pose a threat to your own damn rights by chipping away at ours. Rights are equal amongst citizens of this country. When you start pretending you can limit ours, you’re really limiting your own as well. Some great compromising you’ve done.


And considering there are thousands of laws pertaining to firearms on the books, I think we have compromised enough. It is time to compromise the other way. Personally I would like to see restrictions on FA removed.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 6.

#1. To: Stoner (#0)

Civilians owned the cannons, not the government.

Every man had a rifle. His own. It was either a family heirloom or a tool used to ensure survival. No one dared take a man’s livelihood.

What’s the difference today? Well, most people don’t own cannons.

This is the problem with these pieces. They contain patent falsehoods.

No, the individual American colonists DID NOT own the cannons.

The cannons were owned by the government - which is to say the British. When the colonies rebelled, British cannons fell into American hands. The Continental Army - a confederal government force - took Fort Ticonderoga to get heavy guns from the British. When the British evacuated Boston, they left cannons behind, which were promptly pressed into service by the Continental Army.

The young American Navy stormed a fort in the Bahamas to grab more cannons.

When the French came in, they brought cannons.

It is not true that the cannons were private weapons. Not at all true. Not even a little bit true. Cannons were professional weapons of war, and the American Revolutionaries got their cannons from the British, later also the French. They brought their muskets, not their cannons.

Trouble is, the notion that the citizenry owned the heavy professional military weapons is one of the key rhetorical points of the author's article and IT IS NOT TRUE.

Now, if the article were rewritten from the perspective of truth, it could still make a valid argument. But when an argument starts from a totalitarian position - the colonists owned the equivalent of the tanks of their era - the whole thing dies stillborn, because that's not true.

Truth is, the Second Amendment was designed to preserve the personal firearms in the hands of the citizenry so that COLLECTIVELY they could rebel against an oppressive government. There never was a concept of the INDIVIDUAL right of rebellion - that's called murder.

His argument would mean that you have the right under the Second Amendment to have an arsenal of stinger missiles and chemical munitions, and that it's a "compromise" to surrender that right. It's not true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-23   10:13:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Truth is, the Second Amendment was designed to preserve the personal firearms in the hands of the citizenry so that COLLECTIVELY they could rebel against an oppressive government. There never was a concept of the INDIVIDUAL right of rebellion - that's called murder.

Correct. Under the second amendment, ALL arms were protected from federal infringement for state militias. Each state militia then decided how they would arm their militia members and how those arms were to be ke kept.

The individual right to keep and bear arms was protected by each state's constitution. Two different protected rights.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-08-23   13:23:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: misterwhite (#2)

Of course, I'm not much of an originalist. As it has come down, we DO have a personal right to own guns - not Stinger Missiles or Mustard Gas or grenades or nukes - just guns - and with limits (not machine guns). It comes down to us as a matter of custom and belief, and has protection from the traditional reading of that amendment. So the notion that the states, or cities, have the right to take away individual ownership of firearms is unconstitutional.

But that's because the Constitution is a living document and American understanding of our personal rights has come to include the right to own guns over and against an overreaching federal, state and local authority that wants to confiscate them. It isn't because James Madison or whomever thought thus and so in 1789. James Madison thought people were property and that was morally right. Who really gives a damn what that old pirate thought? He's dead. We're living. We have a robust set of rights because we politically protect them. We don't have gun rights because Madison thought we should. We have them because WE think we have them, and WE think we should, and WE'RE willing to wage political warfare in order to keep them. That's why.

The Founding Fathers were not saints, they were not apostles, they were not apostles, and the system of government they created collapsed and failed in 1860. The Lincoln dictatorship pulled the country through the civil war, and the victorious power re-established a government using the old language but on new constitutional principles - of ultimate federal political power - that has stood the test of time better than the ramshackle slavery-protecting structure the Founders cobbled together.

That's an unpopular view, but it's true. The government we have is worth defending as it is, because of what it is. THANK GOD it is no longer what the Founders were trying to do, because otherwise we'd still have slavery and a landed gentry in half the country, and that's not acceptable whether constitutional or not.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-23   18:02:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#3)

As it has come down, we DO have a personal right to own guns - not Stinger Missiles or Mustard Gas or grenades or nukes - just guns - and with limits (not machine guns).

I agree. The types of personal weapons, age restrictions, carry requirements, etc. should be determined by each state according to their state constitution.

"So the notion that the states, or cities, have the right to take away individual ownership of firearms is unconstitutional."

There would be a state constitutional limit. Also, totally disarming the citizenry poses a threat to the formation of state militias -- protected by the second amendment. Plus there are hunting and self-defense issues. Plus a majority of the people would have to support it.

"So the notion that the states, or cities, have the right to take away individual ownership of firearms is unconstitutional."

There is no question we have the right. The question is, do the citizens of a state wish to protect that right (and all that it entails) and for who?

Certainly even you don't want violent felons to have guns. Nor crazy people. Nor small children. Illegals. Foreign visitors. Negroes.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-08-23   18:20:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: misterwhite (#4)

Negroes?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-23   22:30:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 6.

#12. To: Vicomte13 (#6)

Negroes?

Just to see if you were paying attention.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-08-24 10:31:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 6.

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