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Bang / Guns
See other Bang / Guns Articles

Title: It fascinates me when people say, “Why won’t gun owners compromise?”
Source: American digest
URL Source: http://americandigest.org/wp/fascin ... compromise-r3druger/#more-2409
Published: Aug 23, 2017
Author: Vanderleun
Post Date: 2017-08-23 01:48:31 by Stoner
Keywords: None
Views: 10889
Comments: 37

Let me throw a document into the equation: The Constitution. Yeah, yeah, old news. You’ve heard it a million times.

Well, when the Constitution says “bear arms,” during the period in which it was signed, it meant bear any kind of weapon. Civilians owned the cannons, not the government.

Every man had a rifle. His own. It was either a family heirloom or a tool used to ensure survival. No one dared take a man’s livelihood.

What’s the difference today? Well, most people don’t own cannons. Civies don’t own tanks, helicopters, stealth fighters, or cruise missiles. So what are we left with? Rifles, pistols, in rare cases grenade launchers (which launch non-explosive rounds) and basically the equivalent to pea shooters against a tank.

Seems like a compromise.

We’re not allowed to own anything, because after all, why would any peaceful citizen need one right?

Wrong.

The reason the Second Amendment was the second, and not the tenth, or the fifth, or what have you, is because without it, no other right is guaranteed. Governments, regardless of country or creed takes any measures necessary to further to own authority. It is a promise of history.

What are we, as citizens, left with to defend ourselves with? Literally, pea shooters.

We are told we are not allowed to own machine guns. We agreed.

We are told we are not allowed to carry Into government buildings. We agree.

We are told we are not allowed to carry in certain national parks. We agree.

We are told we are not allowed to defend ourselves on college campuses, despite after time and time again being slaughtered on supposedly “gun-free” areas, but we agreed.

We are told in the 90s we are not allowed to own (inappropriately labeled and completely undefinable) “assault weapons,” but it passed as we had to suck it up for 10 years.

We are told that we are DENIED the right to walk the streets of the most crime ridden cities without means of protecting ourselves, and once again we are left with little say.

Here’s my question, where is YOUR compromise?

I’m not asking you to actually limit your constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So far WE as gun owners are the ONLY ones doing any kind of compromising.

We’re not forcing anyone to do anything. We’re not holding lawmakers at gun point. However, lawmakers are literally holding gun owners at gunpoint to follow the law.

Yes. The government enforces laws. With police. And police carry guns.

We just want to be left alone. We’re not breaking the law. However we make compromise after compromise which limits are pushed every time a gun law passes.

I don’t see you having to compromise a damn thing. Oh, you’re scared because law abiding citizens carry? Boo hoo. But why are you afraid of people who wish you no harm? Why aren’t you instead afraid of criminals who *ahem* are criminals. And don’t follow the law anyway? You think because you pass a gun law he’ll magically turn in his gun out of guilt or civic duty? You can’t be serious.

Because real American gun owners don’t pose a threat to you.

You pose a threat to your own damn rights by chipping away at ours. Rights are equal amongst citizens of this country. When you start pretending you can limit ours, you’re really limiting your own as well. Some great compromising you’ve done.


And considering there are thousands of laws pertaining to firearms on the books, I think we have compromised enough. It is time to compromise the other way. Personally I would like to see restrictions on FA removed.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 29.

#5. To: Stoner, any and all arms, *Bang List* (#0) (Edited)

were Americans allowed to own cannons under the second amendment?

Yes, private citizens were allowed to own cannons, and many did. It was very common for private merchant ships (for example) to be equipped with cannons. They were called "armed merchantmen" - so yes, "arms" definitely did include cannons.

However, strictly speaking, the Second Amendment only protected cannons (and other firearms) from Federal bans. Along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, it only applied against the Federal government - states were allowed to do whatever they wanted, subject to their own Constitutions and Bills of Rights, which frequently incorporated similar or identical provisions. This lasted until the early 1900's, when the Supreme Court ruled that the Fourteenth Amendment incorporated it against the states. For more details, I'd recommend this good comment from /u/Georgy_K_Zhukov.

freedmenspatrolModerator | Antebellum U.S. Slavery Politics 23 points24 points 1 year ago* (18 children)

I've come across two incidences of private ownership of cannons in my nineteenth century reading. Both occur in Territorial Kansas, where the Kansas-Nebraska Act had left the question of whether Kansas (and any other territory) would have slavery or not up to the people there in the hopes that this would spare the nation any political turmoil. The theory was that if you took the slavery question out of Washington, it became a local matter that no one much cared about except locals. There's a huge deal of really interesting background here, but I'm just going to hit the high points on the way to the cannons.

The problem with letting the local people decide for or against slavery, aside from the slavery, is that it doesn't really resolve anything. Specifically, what was the legal status of human property in Kansas before those locals decided one way or the other? If you opposed slavery, it was that slavery was a creature of mere municipal law with no explicit sanction in the law of the nation. Thus, Kansas was free until voted slave. If you were for slavery, then slavery was national law already and applied in Kansas until the territory voted otherwise. You can make a decent argument either way.

Missouri's most enslaved areas lay adjacent to Kansas and they weren't about to just sit by and let a bunch of abolitionists, backed by wealthy New England corporations, set up shop next door. From Kansas' very first election, for a delegate to Congress on November 29, 1854, they came over the border in organized bands. They had expenses paid by major planters and activities coordinated through masonic lodges. The job was to go to the polls and vote, despite the Kansas-Nebraska Act clearly saying that only actual residents of Kansas could do so. If anybody objected, or anybody not looking “sound on the goose” (proslavery) tried to vote, then they would make trouble. One fellow managed to cast a vote by lying about his proslavery bona fides, at which point the crowd literally carried him aloft. Another, John Wakefield, objected strenuously to all of this. He was threatened credibly enough that he took refuge with the election judges and claimed their protection for the day.

But there's no cannon in that story. Lots of guns and knives, though. The cannon came out for the March 30, 1855 elections. For these, Kansans would elect a legislature that could, in principle, hold an immediate vote on whether or not to have slavery in Kansas. They would also be in charge and so shape the development of the state thoroughly to their liking. The Missourians wouldn't miss that and came over in the thousands. They included a future governor of the state (Claiborne Fox Jackson) and just-former (and stil not aware that he wouldn't be re-elected) Senator David Rice Atchison. Atchison was instrumental in the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act. He came to Kansas that day boasting that he and his border ruffians would take the territory, boasting of the eleven hundred men from his own county who had come to vote

and if that ain’t enough we can send five thousand-enough to kill every God-damned abolitionist in the Territory

This man had recently been President Pro Tempore of the Senate, incidentally.

Atchison wasn't kidding. Edward Chapman was present that day and later told his story to a congressional committee sent out to investigate:

They claimed that they had a right to come here and vote; all they asked was to vote here peaceably, and if they could not do it peaceably they must resort to some other means. Most of them had double-barreled shot-guns, and guns of various descriptions, and most of them had side-arms. I saw a couple pieces of artillery.

That's not figurative artillery. Chapman saw the proslavery men settle down in a large camp near his house, so he went out to have a talk. He recognized Claiborne Jackson by sight and got introduced around, all very pleasant. They just wanted to vote, you see? Peaceably, even!

Chapman and some associates of his left the camp and he went on to Lawrence, where a fair helping of the Missourians had gathered. (Others went to attend other polling places.) He got near to the Lawrence polls before one of the Missourians called him aside and asked point-blank if Lawrence would give them any trouble. Chapman thought probably not, probably taking the lesson from all the weaponry that the proslavery men had on hand as one tends to. The other guy said he hoped Chapman was right. Chapman answered to the effect that Lawrence did have men enough to make a fight of it if they caused trouble.

Oh really? The other guy

thought there would be no use in doing that, and invited me to go down a short distance with him. We went to a wagon, and he lifted up a cloth and some blankets, and remarked to me that there was a couple of “bull-dogs” they had, loaded with musket-balls. They were all covered up in the hay, with the exception of the rims of them; they were a couple of brass cannon.

The cannon wasn't used that day, but the Missourians didn't haul it all the way for the hell of it and they proved, quite often, that they were willing to use more than threats of violence to carry Kansas elections. They would vote peacefully, unless someone gave them reason to do otherwise. In another district, they literally tried to knock down the cabin where the voting took place and held the election workers at gunpoint until they resigned.

The proslavery men carried the day and spent most of the summer of 1855 consolidating their hold on Kansas, culimating in a draconian set of laws that literally made saying slavery did not exist in Kansas into a crime. They also got the governor replaced with a more proslavery one and purged from the legislature the few antislavery Kansans elected fair and square in districts where the first governor had ordered new elections after getting solid proof of shenanigans. (That governor, Andrew Horatio Reeder, took the precaution of announcing the special elections while under armed guard.)

That's two cannons for you. I have one more. At the end of November, 1855, a claim dispute with political overtones ended in the murder of an antislavery settler, Charles Dow, by a proslavery settler, Franklin Coleman. Through a convoluted series of events, this led to the new governor of Kansas, Wilson Shannon, ordering the county sheriff (who was one of the guys who held election judges at gunpoint in the district where they tried to knock the house down) to serve a warrant on Jacob Branson. Branson was a friend of Dow's, had his own land dispute with Coleman, and was also an officer in the not-so-secret militia that antislavery Kansans had set up to protect themselves from proslavery attacks. And occasionally burn down the houses of proslavery settlers. Coleman suspected that Dow had something to do with the burning out of his proslavery neighbor, whose claim Dow had then taken up.

Incidentally, it looks quite a lot like Shannon might have sent the sheriff, Samuel Jones, off with a blank commission so he could make someone justice of the peace in exchange for issuing the warrant against Branson. The whole business is convoluted like this.

The murder took place not too far from Lawrence. Jones went off and arrested Branson, though given it was December and in the middle of the night, he found Branson sans pants. Branson had to plead with him a bit to get permission to put some on. (Seriously; Branson recounts it in his testimony on the subject)

Jones was pretty obvious in going for Branson, assemblying a posse of fifteen or so men and making a fair fuss. People noticed and a party of Branson's fellow militiamen, if from the Lawrence chapter rather than his immediate neighborhood, got together, intercepted Jones, and rescued Branson. They took him off to Lawrence, which was by this point the major antislavery headquarters in the territory.

Jones would not take that laying down. He went to Franklin (a town, not Franklin Coleman) and wrote off a letter for his allies in Missouri. He sent that, then wrote a second one to the governor to explain that the law was being thwarted and Lawrence was full of crazies bent on rebellion. It was anarchy.

(back in a moment for part two)

(hello again)

Shannon believed most of what Jones told him. He called up the Kansas militia. Jones' correspondents in Missouri either bought or didn't care and mustered up the troops for a fresh invasion. They were going to wipe Lawrence off the map, using the Dow-Coleman-Jones-Branson affair as the pretense. They may have brought cannons with them, though I haven't seen references to it. They did break into a Missouri militia arsenal and helped themselves to the small arms.

However, and wherever, the proslavery men came from they converged in Lawrence and put it under something loosely resembling a siege. The town was never entirely cut off, but it was in a bad place. The locals, augmented by antislavery militiamen from all about, dug earthworks. Their sort-of-besiegers took potshots at the men digging. A fair bit of smuggling arms through the lines took place. Antislavery Kansans had been slipping things through Missouri for quite a while. At the time of the siege, they had a cannon on order.

My source credits these exploits to a Major Blank, one of those wonderful Blanks known for never suiing for libel. (He's that kind of writer.) Blank knew that someone from New York had sent along a six- or twelve-pounder and the usual accessories. At that very moment, it was created in a Kansas City warehouse. Blank just needed to go get it from an intensely proslavery town and get it past an army of circa 2,000 proslavery militants. Easy, right?

I should say here that it's very likely the story I'm about to tell is heavily (and funnily) embellished. But the historians I've read who speak on the matter (Alice Nichols and Nichole Etcheson) both believe that a cannon really did get through the proslavery lines. So take the following salted to taste:

Blank dropped his military title and went off to Kansas city with a solid wagon and a pair of mules. Yes, he was from Lawrence. But he was there on private business. A friend of his had these boxes stored in the warehouse and he was there to collect them as a favor. Maybe the guy would pay him for his trouble, this time.

Ok, that's fine. Here's your b- Hey wait a minute What exactly have you got going off to Lawrence?

Just some stuff! It's...a wagon. My buddy ought to have bought it in St. Louis and saved on shipping.

The warehouse manager wasn't buying that, so Blank grabbed an axe and pried the lid of the larger box open just a bit to show wheels inside. Blank knew that the wheels for the cannon's carriage would be in the bigger of the two. The light was poor and Blank hadn't torn the whole lid clear, but the skeptical Missourian saw a wagon wheel and bought it. He might have even ordered his slave to help Blank pack things up and load the cannon on his wagon.

Blank and the man at the warehouse shared a drink (corn whisky) and then he was off. It was smooth sailing until he got stuck in the mud, most of the way back to Lawrence and near to the proslavery camps. That's an awfully awkward place for roadside distress, and Blank couldn't get himself loose. But he knew that proslavery men came and went pretty often, so he sat down and waited. When a party came by, he asked them to help a body out.

Well sure, that was just common courtesy. They hitched a pair of horses up and put their shoulders into it. The wagon came free and Blank rode off to Lawrence, where he promptly told his story. When word got back to the besiegers, they decided due diligence required them to go so far as opening up barrels of flour and sifting them before letting them through to the town.

Private cannons were in common use on merchant ships for protection from Barbary and British Pirates etc., and for slavery debates and electioneering in Missouri and Kansas. They bought at least some of the cannons in New York.

Have you hugged your nuke today?

Hondo68  posted on  2017-08-23   19:33:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: hondo68 (#5)

Doesn't matter, There's no constitutional right to possess WMD, or Stinger missiles, grenades, machine guns, land mines, missile batteries, etc. The 2nd Amendment in 2017 is about personal firearms, not automatic ones. It's about self-defense, not mass casualty weapons. Some think otherwise, but the law is not with them and won't be.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-23   22:34:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

The 2nd Amendment in 2017 is about personal firearms, not automatic ones. It's about self-defense, not mass casualty weapons. Some think otherwise, but the law is not with them and won't be.

How do you make up the US Constitution when there has been no amendment process? I often regard you as a bit silly on this chit chat channel because you offer no supportive structure about your uncommon ideas.

buckeroo  posted on  2017-08-23   22:59:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: buckeroo (#8)

How do you make up the US Constitution when there has been no amendment process? I often regard you as a bit silly on this chit chat channel because you offer no supportive structure about your uncommon ideas.

"Silly", etc.

My "uncommon ideas" are the Law of the Land from sea to shining sea, Bub.

Can Americans legally and easily own machine guns. No. They haven't been able to do so for almost a century. Have the laws against the possession of mass casualty weapons been struck down in federal court? No. And they won't be.

Fact is, the Constitution IS what the Courts SAY it is. That doesn't sit well with a cranky minority of what I might call "Evangelical Sola Constitutionalist Originalists" - sort of like lunatic fringe Protestants for whom the Bible is the only source of authority, but who substitute the Constitution and then read it to say what they want it to say. That's the fantasy of the majority of folks on this chit-chat site.

Fact is, though, that the actual LAW, which is what is enforced by guns, police, the army, prosecutors the courts, from sea to shining sea, is "Catholic". The Supreme Court and the Federal Courts ARE the final arbiters of the Constitution, The "Protestant" wing says otherwise, screams it, and listens to their own echo chamber, but when it comes to the law, this is a very "Catholic" country. The Supreme Court says what the Constitution means. That is the position of the vast majority of Americans, if they think of it at all. That's the position of the entirety of the judicial system, law enforcement and the army. That is how the country is really run, and there isn't a crack in that edifice.

Old men with crazy ideas on an Internet chat site does not constitute a majority of anything other than on the site. You have very strong ideas about the Constitution. So do the jihadists. So do the Communists. So do college students protesting the eating of meat. But little hard pockets of completely convinced fanatics do not make the law. The Supreme Court makes the law, along with Congress, and state and local legislators.

Machine guns and WMD are illegal, as a matter of hard written and enforced law, from coast to coast, and no court has struck that down, or will. You can go bellyaching forever that the "Constitution" "says otherwise", but what you say is a fantasy. The Constitution itself, the piece of paper, is unclear, but the law as enforced, and as upheld by the courts' action and inaction, is very clear and hasn't changed in nearly a century. Efforts to go further, to strike down all semiautomatic gun ownership, have failed in the Supreme Court because they, like most of the country, see an individual right to own sidearms for protection, subject to restrictions as to where and how one may carry and keep them. That is left to the localities to decide, and they do decide.

The facts of the law, the concrete, rigid enforced facts of our society are just that: facts. There are people who scream against gun laws as unconstitutional. They PRETEND - because that's all it is - make believe - that THEY are the sovereigns who get to decide what the Constitution means, like cranky Protestant cults who get to decide on their own what the Bible means. In exactly the same vein there are tax resisters who pretend that THEY get to decide that the Constitution says they don't have to pay taxes, so they don't. Then they get arrested and go to jail, and the courts don't even listen to their cranky arguments, don't even let them speak.

The Law of the Land that will be enforced upon you is that you cannot legally own automatic weapons without jumping through a zillion hoops, and you cannot walk around with a weapon unless you are licensed or live in a locality that says how and where you can. If you break those laws you are harshly punished, and no court will agree with your home-grown interpretation of what the Constitution means, because every judge sitting there knows that he or she is the arbiter of what the Constitution means, not you.

I measure the crazy factor of this place by the fact that when I say perfectly realistic, perfectly true things about the Second Amendment, or Social Security, or similar things, that the men here go queer and batshit crazy, as though I have paraded out a unicorn.

The gun laws are real. They are not unconstitutional. They are not going away. I'm a realist and I speak reality on such things. It shouldn't be controversial, but it is among the special snowflakes on the far right who believe that THEY get to decide individually what the Constitution or the tax laws means, and how they apply. Well, they DO get to decide that each day, but if they decide wrong - because the courts and the police HAVE set a right answer to this question - then they lose their liberty, their property and quite possibly their lives, and the system never upholds their self-asserted right to interpret the Constitution to their liking, because individuals have no such right, never have had it, and never will have it. There is word for what would result from the actual application of such a belief: anarchy. We're not really in anarchy, we're not headed that direction, and it is the lawmakers who decide the limits on gun ownership. Individuals can decide whether or not to own within the law. If an individual decides that he's going to have WMD, "because Constitution", then he's a potential domestic terrorist, nothing more, and will be treated as such by the police, by the army, by the courts, and by the citizenry. He can wave around his personal interpretation of the Constitution with his buddies in the federal pen, or in Gehenna after he gets gunned down, but he's simply wrong, always was, and will have lost everything learning that he as an individual is NOT the final arbiter of what the Constitution means: the Supreme Court is, and they don't agree with the gun nuts.

This is not a radical fringe creampuff stance. It's the truth. It's the law of the land. It amazes me that you don't understand this and think that I'M the guy on the fringe.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-24   7:38:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

Fact is, the Constitution IS what the Courts SAY it is. That doesn't sit well with a cranky minority of what I might call "Evangelical Sola Constitutionalist Originalists" - sort of like lunatic fringe Protestants for whom the Bible is the only source of authority, but who substitute the Constitution and then read it to say what they want it to say. That's the fantasy of the majority of folks on this chit-chat site.

Fact is, though, that the actual LAW,....is "Catholic". The Supreme Court and the Federal Courts ARE the final arbiters of the Constitution, The "Protestant" wing says otherwise, screams it, and listens to their own echo chamber, but when it comes to the law, this is a very "Catholic" country.

Thanks for enumerating and reminding us EXACTLY why the AMERICAN Founders eschewed ANY Catholic/Vatican influence at the outset...

...Because EVENTUALLY the Vatican's corruption, tyranny, and worship of the Beast would be exposed, leading this Great Republic straight into the crapper.

Remember THIS: ONLY Protestants established a nation, a Republic rooted in a Constitution and Bill of Rights. NOT any Catholic. They aren't capable as we both know. Too arrogant. Too obedient to Rome's word instead of The Word of God.

So...A special gratitude for the Jesuits Cult and clueless Catholic Sheep for leading America to the slaughter, corrupting America's PROTESTANT-ESTABLISHED Republic with its work ethics and morals straight to your Progressive-Hell in a handbasket.

Yes, one could well thank your crypto-Marxist heathen/Satanic cult, Jesuit-infested SCOTUS and Kennedy Family Values for he war IT declared ON US. Thanks to your ilk, the USA was on Life-Support by 1965 and DOA by 1973.

It's ironic that RCCs have this wonderfully crafted reputation as fierce opponents of Abortion when it is THEY who are most responsible.

Rudderless, hypocritical Cafeteria Catholics and the recent Catholic majority in SCOTUS have all but hammered the final nails in America's coffin, and here YOU are acting all glib.

The "Protestant Wing" btw the the ONLY demographic of the USA holding this nation together. NOT that you care -- at heart you're a loyalist of ancient Holy Roman Empire.

Go ahead and leave. You know you crave bowing before all those fancy red, purple and white skirts. And taking a knee for Pope Frankie back "home."

Liberator  posted on  2017-08-25   1:24:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Liberator (#17)

ONLY PROTESTANTS

No. General St. Clair was Catholic. John Carroll, Maryland political leader, was Catholic. Catholics fought in the American Revolution. The Marquis de Lafayette was Catholic. So was Count Rochambeau, the Comte de Grasse, the Comte d"Estaign, and the rest of that French Navy and French Army that came and fought and bled and was decisive in defeating the British and giving America a chance to live. The Spanish army that drove the British out of Florida to assist the American Revolution was also Catholic. The British Army the Americans were fighting, the King of England himself, and all those Hessians and Prussians that fought on his side were Protestants.

General Kozsciousko, likewise, was Catholic.

A great number of Catholics fought to liberate America from your Protestant King and his Protestant Army. But hey, you go on pretending that it's 1500 if you want to. If it were not for the willingness of Catholic monarchs, Catholic Armies and Catholic soldiers to fight, and bleed and die, on the side of American independence, you would be a British subject.

Enough about this Protestant superiority. The Protestants fought you. Your King and his Redcoats and German soldiers marching about the American countryside in his service, and his Navy marauding you on the high seas - they were all Protestants. The Catholics fought FOR you. Your attempt to make the American Revolution about Protestantism and Catholicism fails, and in the process proves that Catholics were heavily engaged in fighting the Protestants who were oppressing you. IN America, the small number of native born Catholics fought FOR the Revolution, except for the Scots Highlanders, who remained loyal to the King and emigrated to Canada.

As far as Catholics being unable to establish republics, the next republic founded in a revolution after the American was the French Republic, and an attempt at a Polish Republic (which was crushed out by the Protestant Prussians and Orthodox Russians).

And then revolution swept all of Latin America, turning the whole continent into Republics. Meanwhile in Europe the Protestant countries all were monarchies, and mostly still are!

So actually, Catholics have been the ones mostly to throw off kings, and Catholic assistance was necessary to obtain American independence from your Protestant king as well.

In short: your religious bigotry is unhinged and stupid and contrary to the facts.

You want me to leave? Nah. I prefer to stay and rule.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-25   8:19:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Vicomte13 (#19) (Edited)

[ONLY PROTESTANTS]

No. General St. Clair was Catholic. John Carroll, Maryland political leader, was Catholic. Catholics fought in the American Revolution. The Marquis de Lafayette was Catholic. So was Count Rochambeau, the Comte de Grasse, the Comte d"Estaign, and the rest of that French Navy and French Army that came and fought and bled and was decisive in defeating the British and giving America a chance to live. The Spanish army that drove the British out of Florida to assist the American Revolution was also Catholic. The British Army the Americans were fighting, the King of England himself, and all those Hessians and Prussians that fought on his side were Protestants.

General Kozsciousko, likewise, was Catholic.

A great number of Catholics fought to liberate America from your Protestant King and his Protestant Army. But hey, you go on pretending that it's 1500 if you want to. If it were not for the willingness of Catholic monarchs, Catholic Armies and Catholic soldiers to fight, and bleed and die, on the side of American independence, you would be a British subject.

Enough about this Protestant superiority. The Protestants fought you. Your King and his Redcoats and German soldiers marching about the American countryside in his service, and his Navy marauding you on the high seas - they were all Protestants. The Catholics fought FOR you. Your attempt to make the American Revolution about Protestantism and Catholicism fails, and in the process proves that Catholics were heavily engaged in fighting the Protestants who were oppressing you. IN America, the small number of native born Catholics fought FOR the Revolution, except for the Scots Highlanders, who remained loyal to the King and emigrated to Canada.

As far as Catholics being unable to establish republics, the next republic founded in a revolution after the American was the French Republic, and an attempt at a Polish Republic (which was crushed out by the Protestant Prussians and Orthodox Russians).

And then revolution swept all of Latin America, turning the whole continent into Republics. Meanwhile in Europe the Protestant countries all were monarchies, and mostly still are!

So actually, Catholics have been the ones mostly to throw off kings, and Catholic assistance was necessary to obtain American independence from your Protestant king as well.

In short: your religious bigotry is unhinged and stupid and contrary to the facts.

You want me to leave? Nah. I prefer to stay and rule.

Uh, YES. PROTESTANTS INDEED ESTABLISHED OUR REPUBLIC. We speak ENGLISH for good reason.

Protestants: They and they alone are responsible for "America."They borrowed from the Bible our basis for "American" morals and honor and work-ethic.

THEY are the authors of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and every other declarative document of personal, provincial and national sovereignty. No token Catholic was ever needed or required.

John Carroll? Yes, he did indeed sign the US Constitution. However, his signing was purely political. You may argue the case, but all indications appear to support that thesis.

In 1776 Congress asked Carroll (as a Roman Catholic) to go with Ben Franklin to hopefully influence Canada's RCC contingent and try to enlist their support of the Revolution. Carroll predictably FAILED at his mission despite having THE best negotiator ever riding shotgun (Franklin.)

John Carroll also established the Vatican base known as 'George Washington U.' (nice touch to usurp the "Father of Our Country" as it's moniker.) The University -- true to its roots -- has become a hotbed of subversiveness, covering up the image of Jesus Christ during Muslim Barry 0bama's visit.

Seems John Carroll was one of the original SJWs:

“Freedom and independence, acquired by…the mingled blood of Protestant and Catholic fellow-citizens, should be equally enjoyed by all.”

Stretched the truth as though it were salt-water taffy. During that time, the vast majority of RCCs were still mentally enslaved by a Vatican and cult whose conditions for Salvation were NOT scriptural.

THE FRENCH?? Sure, they helped. ONLY because they were bitter enemies of the Brits. ("The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend." Sound familiar?)

France helped America not out of any commitment or obligation to America and the ideal of Freedom and liberty. In other words, to spite and weaken Britain.

As a mostly Catholic nation-in-name-only even back then, the French Revolution predictably took a very ugly turn.

Spain?

Yes. The Spaniards battled the British. OVER TURF. And POWER. Not out of any loyalty of love for America's colonists, who were not taken very seriously.

And how did Spain (in their quest for Gold and Silver, human trafficking, and conversion to their Cult and loyalty to the Pope as their mission) influence Central and South America?

By enslaving the entire continent for centuries into a vicious cycle poverty, payments to Rome -- as it quashing freedom and liberty.

Moreover, because of a coerced loyalty to Rome, ALL commerce ventures, faith, and governance required Vatican autority.

Ironically, conversion to Protestantism had been BANNED until quite recently in a number of South American nations.

As it turns out, the Vatican has been behind the great ILLEGAL INVASION to the USA as its churches cloak, hide, and connive, sabotaging America through the "Religion" back-door.

When not underming America's soverignty, they are undermining Christianity WHILE appeasing and praising Islam. Popes even kiss the Koran. Other then obviously attempting to set up their ecumenical One World Religion, please explain away ANY of THAT, Vic.

THE Truth is hard to accept for hard-core Vatican agents cultists. It is POLITICAL organization. A Mafia of Mafias. Always has been. I don't blame RCCs as much as the machination of Rome. Most RCCs remain confused by their own religion. BY DESIGN.

I haven't even scraped the surface of the Christian-Counterfeit Vatican's past and present misdeeds, attempts to corrupt the Gospel and history itself, and its manipulation and deception of mankind. It and its Marxist-Anarchist Pope continue its usurpation of the Holy Name of Jesus Christ while making a mockery of His mission and Gospel.

So...with respect to the RCC and Vatican? Thanks for NOTHING. They play for the wrong team.

As to your claim that I want you to "leave"? How did you come to that conclusion? I've always found your posts interesting and provocative. Even if we disagree.

Cheers.

Liberator  posted on  2017-08-25   13:27:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 29.

#31. To: Liberator (#29)

Protestants: They and they alone are responsible for "America."

By the same token, the French won World War II.

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-27 08:57:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Liberator (#29)

No token Catholic was ever needed or required.

Sure. Other than the French Navy, French Army and French taxpayers...

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-28 16:23:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Liberator (#29)

As to your claim that I want you to "leave"? How did you come to that conclusion?

Because you wrote "Go ahead and leave" above on the thread.

You have an interesting fantasy going there about the Catholic Church, the Vatican, yadda yadda. Clearly you believe it. Clearly Muslims believe their stuff. Clearly alien-watchers believe in UFOs. Clearly some people believe in mystic crystals. Clearly Republican voters really believe that Lucy won't move the football THIS time.

There's no accounting for crazy. There's also no possible conversation with it either.

Obviously I disagree with the bulk of your "facts". They are nonsense. And without the false facts the whole edifice crashes down. Trouble is, you absolutely believe them to be true, and you'll dig in to the death.

What sort of conversation is even possible?

Vicomte13  posted on  2017-08-28 18:06:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 29.

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