Title: *BRUTAL TRUTH DEBATE*: Christian vs. Muslim; Christ vs. Muhammad/Bible vs. Koran (Fascinating Listen) Source:
You Tube URL Source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVU3 ... ist&p=8DF2F55C1F8C5A75&index=2 Published:Feb 28, 2008 Author:Dave Hunt Post Date:2009-12-13 03:17:12 by Liberator Keywords:Christianity, Islam, debate Views:68285 Comments:164
This is a debate between Dave Hunt and Shabir Ally in Toronto Canada in 2008. Christianity vs. Islam.
Hunt's credentials and scholarship are impeccable as is his courage. As the author of over 4,000,000 books (of which three I own), you will see and hear him NOT mince any words about the deeply flawed Muhammad, and how deeply flawed the Koran is. No candy-coated PC-Speak here.
He compares and contrasts the Koran vs. Bible convincingly, with conviction and armed with facts. Chances are none of us will ever see another non-compromising debate of this kind ever.
This is Part 3 which blends seamlessly into Part 4, into Part 5 and so on. Hunt's politely yet firmly continues to delve into the stark differences between the two belief systems.
YOU think that YOU can question another Christian's faith, and lecture them on what YOU believe to be "correct" Christian behavior.
That's YOUR practice, not normally mine. I simply "Do unto others as they do unto me". I admit, that it is wrong, as I am supposed to "do unto to others as I would want then to do unto me". I never expected you to be the bigoted, superficial person that you are. I always believed that you judged people according to their character and not their religion. I see I have errored in my thinking and it pains me to make this realization, but it is something I must go through. If ever you with to actually address the questions I asked rationally, I will be around to listen.
Have a good night - May the Lord watch over you while you sleep and bless you with a beautiful day when you wake.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
PROBLEM: In the latter part of verse 2 and the first part of verse 3, God says, “Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated.” But, John says, “God is love” (1 John 4:16). How can a God of love hate any one person?
The one person really, REALLY pissed him off?
______________________________________________________________ tag ... you're it.
PROBLEM: In the latter part of verse 2 and the first part of verse 3, God says, “Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated.” But, John says, “God is love” (1 John 4:16). How can a God of love hate any one person?
Jesus commands the people to not only love thy neighbor as theyself, but to also love thy enemies.
Is not Jesus the same as God? Is not Jesus God incarnate?
Who Jesus is, is the beginning of the problems. The Roman Catholic church split in tow - the East and the West, mainly out of argument of who Jesus is and who should be worshipped. Is God the one and only true God? Should our prayers be directed towards him and only to him? Then why the symbols of the Virgin Mary, the other saints, and Jesus on the cross?
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
#48. To: Tater, Mad Dog, mel, A K A Stone, Joe Snuffy, GarySpFC, BobCeleste, All (#2)
Is terrorism the enemy or is Islam the enemy – “Both” is not an answer.
What ISN'T an "answer" is your bilge.
"Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" ~ Webster's Dictionary
"Terrorism can be defined as simply an extreme form of political expression" ~ Tater
Guess what? YOUR apologist definition of "Terrorism" is universally condemned as a crime against humanity. Your definition also happens to mirror the tenets of Islam, Muhammad himself, and its Koran.
I was unfamiliar with Hunt . I knew most of the info that he stated in the video. Because I have been looking at islam since 11 September 2001, trying to find out the TRUTH about it.
I'd recommend that people who want to know the truth start at these three places,
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
http://www.memri.org/
http://www.danielpipes.org/bios/
He IS a brave man, esp. to do it in Canukistan, with their absurd PC laws.
You're welcome, MD, and thanks for your links...
Dave Hunt tells it like it is. If you get the chance, check out some of his books...
Funny how an honest, unfiltered debate like this about who Muhammad was, how the Koran was written, and how and why it came to condone violence and terror could be held in Canada of all places....but probably no where in the U.S.
Mel knocked you side of the head a few times in her attempt to get your pompous , self righteous, blowhard a** to consider what she had to say – you didn’t like the beating and you didn’t understand what she had to say because you did not listen to her.
She got your goat! It is virtually impossible to listen when you are mad.
She did make you prove that you are totally incapable of addressing legitimate questions and concerns.
She nailed that Right On!
She pointed out that you can’t listen with your brain in reverse and your fingers in gear on the keyboard.
She displayed evidence that you are not ready to listen to anyone, because you are far to busy listening to your own mouth while pretending to be and playing like you are Charlemagne of the Internet Crusade. (LOL – Just made that one up – Like it)!
You fail to realize that when one is called to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ it must be through action characterized by humility. To choose to act as a mighty conqueror because you try to rule that way with the strong overcoming the weaker by dominating words lets everything you say go unmurmuring to places men despise.
The idea of strength in humility, of conquering through weakness, is a hidden truth, but it is found in the most obscure and mystical of wisdom through human history. You fail to realize that humility is usually the lot of those who love wisdom.
The lesson to be learned is that the Path of Humility that Jesus walked is not only something he did to make salvation possible, but should serve as a model for growth in Christ-likeness. This is a lesson learned with age.
While you get excited about mastering Mel’s thoughts and trying to overpower her through brute main strength – the end result will only prove that she'll pin you every time.
Yep, ole Delilah Mel sure cut off all of old Mad Dog Samson's hair – How does it feel now, BALDY?
Jesus commands the people to not only love thy neighbor as theyself, but to also love thy enemies.
Is not Jesus the same as God? Is not Jesus God incarnate?
Who Jesus is, is the beginning of the problems. The Roman Catholic church split in tow - the East and the West, mainly out of argument of who Jesus is and who should be worshipped. Is God the one and only true God? Should our prayers be directed towards him and only to him? Then why the symbols of the Virgin Mary, the other saints, and Jesus on the cross?
You didn't even begin to address the question. Your answer was fluff, nothing more.
She did make you prove that you are totally incapable of addressing legitimate questions and concerns. She pointed out that you can’t listen...
Isn't that funny? "Legitimate questions"?? HA!
You yourself deliriously defined "terrorism" as what again?? "An extreme form of political expression"?? ROFLMAO!
The case WAS made ad nauseum, but the two of you conveniently and continually deny the truth about Islam while slathering over Turd-Pie with whipped cream.
Pathological Liars usually do so in the face of even overwhelming evidence.
I would have to say in the same way you or I could hate one person. I love everyone, even those with faults. People are who they are and nothing will ever change that. It is possible to love and hate a person at the same time. I hate my brother with a passion you may or may not ever understand, but, he is my brother and a part of me will always love him.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
Neither you nor MD answered one question in my post with many questions. Get off your high horse. You're no better than anyone else.
Also, you failed to address another post I made to you. Do you absolve "Christians" from the murders they have committed in the name of Christianity? Was it OK for them to slaughter millions in the name of Christianity? I'm no apologist - not for anyone, but your denial of the historical events of slaughters and massacres that took place in the name of Christianity leads me to believe you feel they were right in doing the exact same thing you accuse all Muslims of being wrong for doing. That makes you a hypocrit. Here's an idea - they are all wrong - every single one of them. Every single person that commits atrocities against others in the name of religion or in the name of anything else is wrong. Religion does not breed evil, evil breeds evil.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
Not THE issue here, though as established earlier, Islam is now synonymous with "Terrorism."
Did you watch ANY of the debate between Hunt and Ally? AT ALL?
Speaking of "debate," your attempt at changing IT and the context to the definition of "terror" ISN'T what the video debate was about.
Ally (the Muslim) was actually a very articulate debater...But the best he could do in defense of yesterday's, today's and tomorrow's Islamic violence was in citing some of the Old Testament.
No, I did not make that one up – I did not keep the reference, because I saw no need to at the time. What is it about the definition you are questioning? The point was that terrorism has been defined as political violence. There are a number of sources for this – Here is one:
/snip/ Defining the political concept of terrorism has been a contested issue. In fact, there is not one universally agreed upon definition. Terrorism has been defined as political violence committed to generate fear. Additional definitions compare terrorism to guerrilla warfare. Unlike guerrilla warfare, however, where militaries are attacked, the targets of terrorism are civilians. Terrorism has also been associated with larger power struggles such as the cold war and contemporary religious-political conflicts. As well, researchers have discussed the notion of state terrorism or violence committed by the state through torture or the use of intimidation tactics. Notions of what constitutes terrorism and who terrorists are also change over time. For instance, individuals who were once considered to be terrorists, such as Nelson Mandela, are now celebrated heroes. (Emphasis Added). /snip/
You mean besides his several wives? That he was a pedophile who married a six-year old child? That he thought he was going insane when receiving his "revelations" from Satan? That he slaughtered by the bushelful? That he condoned murder and violence as it best served his own selfish greed and lust, and by piece-meal added to the Koran? that he was a Liar? That he actually admired and respected the Jews early on?
have fun comparing Evil Incarnate with Jesus Christ. HEY! Maybe you can learn something from Dave Hunt and the debate.....Naaaaah.....
MD;YOU think that YOU can question another Christian's faith, and lecture them on what YOU believe to be "correct" Christian behavior.
LIAR, That's YOUR practice, not normally mine. I simply "Do unto others as they do unto me". I admit, that it is wrong, as I am supposed to "do unto to others as I would want then to do unto me". I never expected you to be the bigoted, superficial person that you are. I always believed that you judged people according to their character and not their religion. I see I have errored in my thinking and it pains me to make this realization, but it is something I must go through. If ever you with to actually address the questions I asked rationally, I will be around to listen.
LOL!
Really?
Show me anywhere, anytime, that I have done what you claim, LIAR.
So it turns out that you are a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE?
Good to know.
Your attempts to change the subject from your abject ignorance of islam are only fooling the FOOLS, not the rest of us.
Could you be any more of a mealy mouthed liar and hypocrite?
Which is part of the fabric of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The qur'an, like the Jews, recognize Jesus as a prophet. When Christians strayed from worshipping only God, Muhammad was born to bring the world back to the original religion of Abraham.
Catholics pray to more than just God. Christians idolize Jesus. Jews deny Jesus is God incarnate. Muslims see that as blasphemy. For God is the only one who can be worshipped and followed.
You don't know anything about the various religions of the world except for what your "Christianity" views tell you, nor are you interested in knowing anything as you already believe you know it all. More murders are committed by athiests today than all the religions combined. Yes, more people have died at the hands of the non-religious than the hands of the Muslims.
As I said, I'm not an apologist for anyone, but you sir, are in great denial about who the true enemy is. You are afraid of Muslims. You are a coward, for only a real coward is afraid to admit the real truth about anything.
I bid you a good night and pray you find enlightenment someday. I am done wasting my time.
Can you imagine how Jesus felt while he was trying to teach the non-believers? The ridicule he faced? Being attacked by his own people?
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
You mean besides his several wives? That he was a pedophile who married a six-year old child? That he thought he was going insane when receiving his "revelations" from Satan? That he slaughtered by the bushelful? That he condoned murder and violence as it best served his own selfish greed and lust, and by piece-meal added to the Koran? that he was a Liar? That he actually admired and respected the Jews early on?
Way wrong. Muhammad had only one wife. His revelations came from God. He was recognized as a prophet by a Christian Monk. He was the last known prophet. He slaughtered no one. You can't even spell Qur'an. You are ignorant. Let's hope that ignorance gets you to heaven.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
The case WAS made ad nauseum, but the two of you conveniently and continually deny the truth about Islam while slathering over Turd-Pie with whipped cream.
Pathological Liars usually do so in the face of even overwhelming evidence.
Yep.
Their obvious game is to change the subject, since we have the audacity to challenge their invincible ignorance of the realities of islam.
No, I have not had a chance to watch. I have had guests coming in and out, and they will be for the next week - so I have not had time to watch it. I would like to, however, and plan to do so when I have time.
Islam is now synonymous with "Terrorism
I will agree that some terrorists as Muslims - just as some terrorist are Basque, just as some terrorists are Irish, and so on …
So, I cannot find any basis to prove that all Muslims are terrorists – can you furnish me with documentation they are?
The video will probably be stating the opinion of one of the debaters that Islam is now synonymous with terrorism – is that what you are saying?
I would have to say in the same way you or I could hate one person. I love everyone, even those with faults. People are who they are and nothing will ever change that. It is possible to love and hate a person at the same time. I hate my brother with a passion you may or may not ever understand, but, he is my brother and a part of me will always love him.
That is not correct.
The word “hate” in the Bible does not always carry the same sense of antipathy and disgust associated with the English expression; it can mean simply to favor someone else with special privilege, devotion, or love less. In that sense, the Lord’s “hatred” of Esau was only the other side of His loyalty to His covenant with Israel. Paul quoted verses 2–3 with that meaning in Rm 9:13 as an illustration of the Lord’s mercy and compassion on whomever He chooses to bestow them (Rm 9:15). Nevertheless, in the circumstances of the Jews’ return from exile, the hostility of the Edomites seems to have reached another level, provoking Malachi to call them “the people the LORD has cursed forever” (v. 4).
The point I was attmeping to make gracefully is you should not be lecturing Christians, when your knowledge and insight into the Word is extremely limited.
I will be happy to start over, if you will help by again stating the case and the supporting presentations. (Links to the case and support data will do find).
MD; Do you even know what islam and it's "holy" books teach about how moo slums MUST treat ALL non- islamic peoples of the world?
Do you even know what islam's own histories say about what it has done to the "dar al-harb"?
It certainly IS true that for ALL non-islamic peoples of the world, and for most islamic peoples of the world, islam IS 'terrorism"
L; Your last assertion strikes the dagger into the heart of Islam that dare not be spoken in public.
Islam = Terrorism. Terrorism = Islam.
Muhammad cast the die 1400 years ago and NEVER has Islam strayed from its tenets since.
Coercion. Submission. Violence. Death. ALL of it justified IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!! Until THE VERY LAST INFIDEL is submitted or killed.
THE Truth.
Would that it was something else, but it is NOT.
But what is "important" to these purveyors of ignorant brain dead PC drivel is that I am not being a "real" Christian in accordance with their concept of what Christianity should be!
The qur'an, like the Jews, recognize Jesus as a prophet.
The Jews are the original "Christians" who believed that Jesus (The Jew of Jews, King of Kings) fulfilled the prophecies as Savior of mankind.
Whether the Koran believe in Christ as A "prophet" has NO bearing on their Cult of Death, Cult of Coercion, Cult of Submission.
When Christians strayed from worshipping only God, Muhammad was born to bring the world back to the original religion of Abraham.
HUH?? (triple eyeball roll)
You don't know anything about the various religions of the world except for what your "Christianity" views tell you, nor are you interested in knowing anything as you already believe you know it all. More murders are committed by athiests today than all the religions combined. Yes, more people have died at the hands of the non-religious than the hands of the Muslims.
Interesting red herrings but a debate for another day...
The subject in this case is with respect to the Cult of Islam, it's Koran, and it's Leader Muhammad and what THEY represent - with historical context - IN CONTRAST TO the message of the Bible and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you seek true debate and dual representation (and it's a pretty spirited one from both sides, yet civil), watch the videos of Hunt and Ally.
The point I was attmeping to make gracefully is you should not be lecturing Christians, when your knowledge and insight into the Word is extremely limited.
Firstly, I am not lecturing anyone. Secondly - I doubt they know more about being a Christian than I. Thirdly, you assume they are Christian and I am not - your assumptions are incorrect. Fourth and finally - one need not know more about Christianity than another to recognize they are not practicing what they preach. So, while I see your point, your point carries no weight.
I appreciate your insults and have made note of your graceful way of putting them.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
No Lib - I was only interested in your answers to certain questions. It is clear to me that you will never provide them, but thanks anyway. Have a good night.
It is extremely difficult for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who consider themselves superior are more at odds with God than those who are aware of their sins. Those who sincerely repent—even if they are the hated toll-collectors, prostitutes, or ignorant common people—are more likely to receive God’s forgiveness than are the learned and self-righteous. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Merry Christmas everyone!
#83. To: Mad Dog, Tater, mel, GarySpFC (#74)(Edited)
But what is "important" to these purveyors of ignorant brain dead PC drivel is that I am not being a "real" Christian in accordance with their concept of what Christianity should be!
If that wasn't so pitiful, it would be funny.
Funny how in their ignorance of Christ's redemption of our admitted imperfection these non-Christian self-anointed "Bible scholars" suddenly become..."Defenders of the Faith," lol. FWIW, no one with half a brain-cell is buying their desperate bilge.
It's always these same people or Leftists whose last resort of a losing argument is to attack the messenger of truth and attempt to marginalize their opponent. They're shooting blanks...and know it. I mean just how does one defend Islam in earnest without being an apologist of terrorism and murder?
Hey - If you're not catching flak, yer not over the target, Dog ;-)
There are some, to many, Christians who interpret the word "hate" to have many meanings, including the interpretation which you have expressed:
The word “hate” in the Bible does not always carry the same sense of antipathy and disgust associated with the English expression; it can mean simply to favor someone else with special privilege, devotion, or love less.
Some have said that in the passage below that the word “hate” does not mean “hate” in the commonly accepted definition of the word and does not mean what it says, but actually means that you're to love your god more than anyone else...
Luke 14:26 – If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
I cannot comprehend that. Hate is a pretty clear word, and we all know what it means. If someone screams "I hate you!" in someone's face does that mean "I don't actually hate you, but I'm more devoted to liking a different friend!"
If we do a search for the word hate in the NIV bible online, will not in these passages the word hate seems pretty clear as well.
Therefore, my question is basically: Where is the reference book that God wrote that says what he *actually* meant by several words since it's so open for interpretation?
Not intended to be sarcasm: If a terrorist screams “I’m gonna kill you” – Should I have anything to fear, by stopping think that “kill” may not really mean “kill” but mean “love?”
