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Title: Federal judges deciding fate of mountaintop cross Veterans consider civil disobedience if ordered to dismantle memorial
Source: worldnetdaily
URL Source: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=118498
Published: Dec 10, 2009
Author: Chelsea Schilling
Post Date: 2009-12-10 08:50:37 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 314
Comments: 5

Stop Paying Obama For Electricity Today!

WND Exclusive LAW OF THE LAND Federal judges deciding fate of mountaintop cross Veterans consider civil disobedience if ordered to dismantle memorial Posted: December 10, 2009 12:50 am Eastern

By Chelsea Schilling © 2009 WorldNetDaily

Cross memorial on Mount Soledad

A panel of federal appellate judges began hearing arguments today over the fate of the Mount Soledad cross – and whether the 1954 tribute to American veterans should remain on the La Jolla, Calif., mountaintop or be torn down.

Joe Infranco is a lawyer with the Alliance Defense Fund, a legal group that filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the American Legion Department of California. He told WND that after 45 minutes of arguments in 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, it was difficult to tell which way the three-judge panel was leaning.

"There was not a lot of heated debate. There were not pointed questions," he said. "My view of it is that the panel was attempting to reconcile its old views with Supreme Court precedent, which is now very favorable toward the cross."

Two of the panel judges, Harry Pregerson and M. Margaret McKeown, have written or joined decisions opposing crosses on public land. They decided in favor of arguments that crosses violated constitutional prohibition on government endorsement of religion.

The third judge, Richard Páez, is widely known for his opinion supporting San Francisco officials who urged the Vatican to drop a church directive against adoption by same-sex couples.

"I would say that it's not a panel that would overall be friendly to our perspective," Infranco said.

However, he noted, "Any panel – regardless of each judge's individual philosophy – is still bound by the Supreme Court's decisions."

Infranco said Mount Soledad memorial supporters have cause to be optimistic because the Supreme Court's 2005 Van Orden decision, involving arguments about whether a government-sponsored display of the Ten Commandments at the Texas State Capitol in Austin violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is "strongly in our favor."

The Supreme Court ruled by a vote of 5 to 4 that the Ten Commandments display was constitutional.

The 29-foot Mount Soledad memorial has been the subject of litigation since 1989, when the city of San Diego owned the property. Atheist Philip Paulson, now deceased, sued to have the cross removed. He won in 1991, and the city was unable to sell the land. Congress passed legislation allowing the federal government to immediately take ownership of the land in 2006.

Now the ACLU represents the Jewish War Veterans and three citizens who sued the Department of Defense after Congress acquired the property.

Department of Defense lawyers are now arguing to preserve the Latin cross.

Even after two decades of legal battles, Infranco said it may take some time for the panel to make a decision.

"The 9th Circuit can take a long time," he said. "A decision could come as early as six months or it could be a year.

He said he believes the court will wait for the pending Supreme Court's decision on the Mojave memorial – a simple white cross that is also the subject of litigation.

A group of veterans erected the Mojave cross in 1934. Now, 75 years later, the Supreme Court will determine whether that memorial violates the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state. The cross is located on federal property in the middle of California's Mojave National Preserve.

Some argue if the Supreme Court rules in favor of the plaintiff in the Mojave case, it will mean memorial crosses across the nation may be required to be torn down. A decision is expected to come in the next few months.

"I think the court is aware that the Mojave memorial case has the potential to affect the outcome of this case," Infranco said.

Regardless of who wins this round, he said he expects the losing party to take the case to the Supreme Court.

"If the Supreme Court does not take the case, and they take very few, then the appellate decision stands," he said.

Asked whether the cross must come down if the Department of Defense does not win its case, Infranco said, "That's an excellent question. I overheard veterans at the argument today talking about civil disobedience if they're ordered to dismantle the cross."

He continued, "This excites a lot of emotion among the veterans. Veterans groups in the country are outraged by this lawsuit."


Poster Comment:

This was not the founders vision for our nation. It isn't even a good vision for our country. More judges need to be behind bars.

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#1. To: A K A Stone, *Religious History and Issues*, *Military or Vets Affairs* (#0)

Infranco said Mount Soledad memorial supporters have cause to be optimistic because the Supreme Court's 2005 Van Orden decision, involving arguments about whether a government-sponsored display of the Ten Commandments at the Texas State Capitol in Austin violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is "strongly in our favor."

That case is in no way related to this one. The cross in this case is merely a traditional symbol of rememberance. It implies the dead veterans will never be forgotten. It has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ or promoting the Christian religion. That can't be said about a display of the Ten Commandments,which is and can be nothing less than a symbol of Jewish and Christian religious beliefs.

The Ten Commandments are religious law. The cross is nothing more than a symbol of everlasting life,even if that life is nothing more than memories of the dead.

If *I*,a agnostic who is opposed to all organized religions and who has never even been NEAR a law school,can figure this out,why is it so hard for all the lawyers to figure out?

Other than the fact that they profit from finding things to argue and disagree about,that is?

Now the ACLU represents the Jewish War Veterans and three citizens who sued the Department of Defense after Congress acquired the property.

Putting aside for a moment my arguments above that the cross in this case represents remembrance and not religion,why the HELL should the majority of Christian and non-believers have to bow down to kiss a VERY tiny minority of Jewish people and three believers in the religion of atheism? Sombody should just tell those losers to suck it up and create their own memorials with a Star of David or a circle representing nothing if this is that important an issue to them?

After all,has anybody EVER claimed that Jewish and atheist war dead were not to be remembered? The answer is "No". Somebody needs to grow a pair and just tell these whiners to eat shit and die.

Department of Defense lawyers are now arguing to preserve the Latin cross.

It's only a "Latin Cross" if you want it to be a Latin Cross. The Catholics didn't invent the damn thing,they just claimed it.

A group of veterans erected the Mojave cross in 1934. Now, 75 years later, the Supreme Court will determine whether that memorial violates the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state.

BTW,I hit the religious issues ping list on this one too,and am curious about the reaction of the true-believers to my comments about a cross in these circumstances. I have to admit that this surprises me. The pussies on the SC never take a controversial case unless there are political ramifications,and their political masters tell them to take it and how to rule. Their final ruling,pro or con,is already decided before they make the public announcement they are going to hear the case.

Asked whether the cross must come down if the Department of Defense does not win its case, Infranco said, "That's an excellent question. I overheard veterans at the argument today talking about civil disobedience if they're ordered to dismantle the cross."

I think the day that will eventually come that has average Americans busting the heads of the ruling elites and their Storm Troopers is rapidly approaching.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-12-10   10:06:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: sneakypete (#1)

Yep pretty much like taking Santa Claus out of Christmas because he might remind someone that Christmas is about the birth of Christ...

The cross in this case is as you state..

It's pretty outrageous that the Jewish dominated ACLU (Marxists) would sue on behalf of the "Jewish War Veterans"

I would wager that if the organization "Jewish War Veterans" were polled they would be pretty angry about their organization's alleged leadership rubber stamping another ACLU Anti-Christian hate move..this time of a veteran's memorial....

The ACLU must be comprised mainly of vampires...never have such a group been so filled with hatred of a cross..the ACLU spends millions pursuing any cross they can that might have any public monies associated with it...

Kinda psychotic..

imo

Joe Snuffy  posted on  2009-12-10   11:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Joe Snuffy (#2)

I would wager that if the organization "Jewish War Veterans" were polled they would be pretty angry about their organization's alleged leadership rubber stamping another ACLU Anti-Christian hate move..this time of a veteran's memorial....

Is there even such a group as "Jewish War Veterans",or is this just 3 Jews who were in the Navy reserves during peacetime as lawyers pretending to be a group that represents all Jewish veterans?

Face it,the ACLU KNOWS that one way to shut down disapproval of their efforts in the press is to make it known they are representing Jews. We live in PC dominated world,and some pigs really ARE more important than other pigs.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-12-10   11:43:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: sneakypete (#1)

Infranco said Mount Soledad memorial supporters have cause to be optimistic because the Supreme Court's 2005 Van Orden decision, involving arguments about whether a government-sponsored display of the Ten Commandments at the Texas State Capitol in Austin violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is "strongly in our favor."

You might recall the Kansas School Board Evolution controversy during 1998-99. I was asked to testify before the board, and later I visited a large meeting of the opposition at the Jewish Community Center. During the question and answer session I stood up and spoke. I said, "You Jews are a religious people, however the group and issues you are supporting is atheistic." The leaders closed the meeting after I spoke. I was amazed when several Jews sought me out aftwerwards, and let me know how much they disliked (hated) Christmas.

That case is in no way related to this one. The cross in this case is merely a traditional symbol of rememberance. It implies the dead veterans will never be forgotten. It has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ or promoting the Christian religion. That can't be said about a display of the Ten Commandments,which is and can be nothing less than a symbol of Jewish and Christian religious beliefs.

The Ten Commandments are religious law. The cross is nothing more than a symbol of everlasting life,even if that life is nothing more than memories of the dead.

If *I*,a agnostic who is opposed to all organized religions and who has never even been NEAR a law school,can figure this out,why is it so hard for all the lawyers to figure out?

Other than the fact that they profit from finding things to argue and disagree about,that is?

Now the ACLU represents the Jewish War Veterans and three citizens who sued the Department of Defense after Congress acquired the property.

Putting aside for a moment my arguments above that the cross in this case represents remembrance and not religion,why the HELL should the majority of Christian and non-believers have to bow down to kiss a VERY tiny minority of Jewish people and three believers in the religion of atheism? Sombody should just tell those losers to suck it up and create their own memorials with a Star of David or a circle representing nothing if this is that important an issue to them?

After all,has anybody EVER claimed that Jewish and atheist war dead were not to be remembered? The answer is "No". Somebody needs to grow a pair and just tell these whiners to eat shit and die.

Department of Defense lawyers are now arguing to preserve the Latin cross.

It's only a "Latin Cross" if you want it to be a Latin Cross. The Catholics didn't invent the damn thing,they just claimed it.

A group of veterans erected the Mojave cross in 1934. Now, 75 years later, the Supreme Court will determine whether that memorial violates the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state.

BTW,I hit the religious issues ping list on this one too,and am curious about the reaction of the true-believers to my comments about a cross in these circumstances. I have to admit that this surprises me. The pussies on the SC never take a controversial case unless there are political ramifications,and their political masters tell them to take it and how to rule. Their final ruling,pro or con,is already decided before they make the public announcement they are going to hear the case.

Asked whether the cross must come down if the Department of Defense does not win its case, Infranco said, "That's an excellent question. I overheard veterans at the argument today talking about civil disobedience if they're ordered to dismantle the cross."

I think the day that will eventually come that has average Americans busting the heads of the ruling elites and their Storm Troopers is rapidly approaching.

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-10   13:41:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: sneakypete (#3)

Yikes! I was presumptious in not previewing my post.

Regarding the establishment clause...It's not in the Constitution, not that my opinon counts.

"It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history. … The establishment clause had been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years. … There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state]. … The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers. …" William Hubbs Rehnquist in Wallace v. Jaffree (1984)s

William Orville Douglas was a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court for 36 years, after teaching law at Yale and Columbia University. In the 1952 case of Zorach v. Clauson, Justice William Douglas asserted: “The First Amendment… does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State…. Otherwise the state and religion would be aliens to each other.” Justice Douglas continued: “We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being…. When the state encourages religious instruction… it follows the best of our traditions.” William Orville Douglas, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court

When the First Amendment was passed it only had two purposes. The first purpose was that there would be no established, national church for the united thirteen states. To say it another way: there would be no “Church of the United States.” James Madison (1751-1836) clearly articulated this concept of separation when explaining the First Amendment’s protection of religious liberty. He said that the First Amendment to the Constitution was prompted because “the people feared one sect might obtain a preeminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform.”116 Nevertheless, a number of the individual states had state churches, and even that was not considered in conflict with the First Amendment. “At the outbreak of the American Revolution, nine of the thirteen colonies had conferred special benefits upon one church to the exclusion of others.”117 “In all but one of the thirteen states, the states taxed the people to support the preaching of the gospel and to build churches.”118 “it was not until 1798 that the Virginia legislature repealed all its laws supporting churches.”119 “In Massachusetts the Massachusetts Constitution was not amended until 1853 to eliminate the tax- supported church provosions.”120 The second purpose of the First Amendment was the very opposite from what is being made of it today. It states expressly that government should not impede or interfere with the free practice of religion. Those were the two purposes of the First Amendment as it was written. As Justice Douglas wrote for the majority of the Supreme Court in the United States v. Ballard case in 1944: The First Amendment has a dual aspect. It not only “forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship” but also “safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion.”

GarySpFC  posted on  2009-12-10   13:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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