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Corrupt Government
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Title: Slain SEALÂ’s dad wants answers: 'Don't hide behind my sonÂ’s death'
Source: MiamiHerald
URL Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/pol ... vernment/article135064074.html
Published: Mar 2, 2017
Author: Julie K. Brown
Post Date: 2017-03-02 01:08:50 by Hondo68
Keywords: not in Situation Room, President Trump signed, cover had been blown
Views: 11661
Comments: 56

When they brought William “Ryan” Owens home, the Navy SEAL was carried from a C-17 military plane in a flag-draped casket, onto the tarmac at Dover Air Force Base, as President Donald Trump, his daughter, Ivanka, and Owens’ family paid their respects.

It was a private transfer, as the family had requested. No media and no bystanders, except for some military dignitaries.

 

READ MORE: Trump may support probe of SEAL’s death, White House says

 

Owens’ father, Bill, had learned only a short time before the ceremony that Trump was coming. Owens was sitting with his wife, Marie, and other family members in the solemn, living room-like space where the loved ones of the fallen assemble before they are taken to the flight line.

“I’m sorry, I don’t want to see him,’’ Owens recalled telling the chaplain who informed him that Trump was on his way from Washington. “I told them I don’t want to meet the President.”

It had been little more than 24 hours since six officers in dress uniform knocked on the door to Owens’ home in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea. It was not yet daylight when he answered the door, already knowing in the pit of his stomach what they had come to tell him.  

William Owens shows the medals his son earned, some of them posthumously.Emily MichotMiami Herald Staff

Now, Owens cringed at the thought of having to shake the hand of the president who approved the raid in Yemen that claimed his son’s life — an operation that he and others are now calling into question.

“I told them I didn’t want to make a scene about it, but my conscience wouldn’t let me talk to him,” Owens said Friday, speaking out for the first time in an interview with the Miami Herald.

Owens, also a military veteran, was troubled by Trump’s harsh treatment of a Gold Star family during his presidential campaign. Now Owens was a Gold Star parent, and he said he had deep reservations about the way the decision was made to launch what would be his son’s last mission.

Ryan and as many as 29 civilians were killed Jan. 28 in the anti-terrorism mission in Yemen. What was intended as a lightning raid to grab cellphones, laptops and other information about terrorists turned into a nearly hour-long firefight in which “everything went wrong,” according to U.S. military officials who spoke to the New York Times.

Bill Owens said he was assured that his son, who was shot, was killed early in the fight. It was the first military counter-terrorist operation approved by the new president, who signed the go-ahead Jan. 26 — six days into his term.

“Why at this time did there have to be this stupid mission when it wasn’t even barely a week into his administration? Why? For two years prior, there were no boots on the ground in Yemen — everything was missiles and drones — because there was not a target worth one American life. Now, all of a sudden we had to make this grand display?’’

In a statement from the White House Saturday, spokesman Michael C. Short called Ryan Owens “an American hero who made the ultimate sacrifice in the service of his country.”

The White House did not address his father’s criticisms, but pointed out that the Department of Defense routinely conducts a review of missions that result in loss of life.

Bill Owens and his wife sat in another room as the President paid his respects to other family members. He declined to say what family members were at the ceremony.

Trump administration officials have called the mission a success, saying they had seized important intelligence information. They have also criticized detractors of the raid, saying those who question its success dishonor Ryan Owens’ memory.

His father, however, believes just the opposite.

“Don’t hide behind my son’s death to prevent an investigation,” said the elder Owens, pointing to Trump’s sharp words directed at the mission’s critics, including Sen. John McCain.

“I want an investigation. … The government owes my son an investigation,” he said.

 

A family photo of William ‘Ryan’ Owens, who was killed in Yemen on Jan. 28, 2017. Owens was the first known U.S. combat casualty under President Trump.

Courtesy of the Owens family

Among the elite

Next week, Ryan Owens would have turned 37. At the time of his death, he had already spent half his life in the Navy, much of that with the elite SEAL Team 6 — chasing terrorist leaders across deserts and mountains around the world. The team, formally known as DEVGRU,had taken part in some of the most high-profile operations in military history, including the killing of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.

At the time of the 2001 9/11 attacks, Owens was in SEAL training, arguably the most physically grueling and mentally grinding regimens in the military. The team, tasked with tracking terrorists and mythologized in books and movies, had once been dubbed a “global manhunting machine” by the Times.

Despite the lore surrounding the SEALS’ exploits, almost everything about them is kept secret, even their names. Bill Owens knows very little about the actions that his son participated in, but takes pride in the dozens of awards he earned during his 12 deployments. Among them: the Silver Star, Navy and Marine Corps Medal, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart.

 

William Owens’ home in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea holds the medals his son earned, some of them posthumously. He was determined ‘to be the best,’ the father says.

Emily MichotMiami Herald Staff

Ryan served under three U.S. presidents, and met former President Barack Obama, his father said. At his home on Friday, Bill Owens pulled out piles of photographs: Ryan as a toddler, clad in a brown military jumpsuit on his father’s lap; Ryan with his two older brothers playing army as kids; Ryan’s wedding picture; Ryan with his children and Ryan clad in military gear with a handful of his SEAL teammates. There’s one of Ryan sitting on the floor in the White House playing with Obama’s dogs.

Ryan joined the Navy after high school, following in his brothers’ footsteps. His brother, John, 42, was also a SEAL, and his oldest brother, Michael, 44, a Hollywood police officer, was also in the Navy for a time.

They in turn were inspired by their father: Bill Owens served four years in the Navy, then joined the Army Reserves in Arlington Heights, Illinois. Ryan was born in downstate Peoria. While in the Reserves, Bill worked for Caterpillar tractor company, until he was laid off during the recession in the 1980s. Shortly thereafter, he saw a notice in a military magazine for new recruits for the Fort Lauderdale Police Department, and he successfully applied.

Owens and his then-wife, Ryan’s mother Patricia, moved with Ryan to South Florida. His elder sons remained with Owens’ first wife in Illinois.

Despite the distance between them, the half-brothers were very close, Owens said. They played sports and spent many summers and holidays together. Ryan and his brothers became interested in the military at a very young age. And Ryan dreamed of becoming a SEAL.

“He was always happy,” Bill Owens said of Ryan. “Every picture you see he has a smile on his face. He just had a real positive attitude.”

He was also driven. Ryan was so determined “to be the best” his father said, that when he failed the dive phase of SEAL training, he went out and hired a private instructor to get more training on his off time, and was initially certified as a civilian.

“He went out on his own and became more proficient. That’s the kind of dedication and determination that he had,” his father said.

Bill Owens’ marriage to Ryan’s mother ended soon after they moved to South Florida, and Patricia, who also became a Fort Lauderdale police officer, eventually moved with Ryan and her new husband back to Peoria. She died in 2013.

Ryan spent summers and holidays with his father and brothers in Fort Lauderdale and played catcher during the school year for the Illinois Valley Central High School baseball team, the Grey Ghosts.

 

Ryan dreamed of serving in the military from a very early age, his father says. In this family photo, he is playing soldier with his older brothers.

Courtesy of the Owens family

A SEAL’s heartache

Standing 6-4, and weighing about 225 pounds, Ryan loved the physical part of the job and serving his country, even though it took him away from his family much of the year.

“I always kept hoping that we would eventually make up for lost time, but that’s not going to happen,” his father said.

Ryan’s military career wasn’t always filled with the adrenaline of hostage rescue missions and midnight raids. In between, there were endless hours of training and planning.

There was also the heartache of losing his military brothers. Ryan was tasked in 2011 with escorting the bodies of 17 of his fellow SEALS home following a CH-47 helicopter crash in Afghanistan, his father said.

“He came back from Afghanistan and had to go to their funerals. It’s unnerving to go through something like that. It was one of the worst days in SEAL history as far as casualties go. He didn’t talk about it,” his father said. “A lot of them, they don’t talk about it, even with their parents.”

Doomed mission

Owens and his SEAL commandos set out in the dark of night. Planning for the Yemen raid began last year during the Obama administration, but the execution was tabled because it was decided it would be better to launch the operation on a moonless night, which wouldn’t occur until after President Trump took office Jan. 20.

According to a timeline provided by the White House, then-National Security Advisor Michael Flynn briefed the president about the operation Jan. 25 over a dinner that included Vice President Mike Pence, Chief Strategist Steve Bannon, Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and top security aides. It was not held in the Situation Room, as had been a practice under previous administrations.

President Trump signed the memo authorizing the action the next day, Jan. 26.

 

The younger Owens served under three presidents and met one of them: Barack Obama. This photo is from a visit to the White House.

Courtesy of the Owens family

“This was a very, very well thought-out and executed effort,” White House spokesman Sean Spicer said Feb. 2 as questions first arose about the mission. He stressed that it had been thoroughly vetted and planned on Obama’s watch.

Colin Kahl, a national security adviser to former Vice President Joe Biden, however, tweeted his contention that Spicer was mistaken.

“Obama made no decisions on this before leaving office, believing it represented escalation of U.S. involvement in Yemen,” he wrote on Twitter.

At the time of the firefight, Trump was not in the Situation Room, where he would have been directly involved in monitoring developments. Spicer said he kept in touch with his national security staffers, who were directly plugged in. White House officials also pointed out that, in general, counter-terrorism operations are routine and presidents are not in the Situation Room for every mission.

U.S. forces, targeting a suspected al-Qaida compound, immediately faced armed militants, a sign that their cover had been blown. The Washington Post reported that militants, some of them women, fired from the rooftops. Three other commandos were injured when an MV-22 Osprey, sent in to evacuate the troops, crash-landed. It was later destroyed by a U.S. airstrike to prevent it from falling into militant hands.

Some reports have said as many as 23 civilians, including an 8-year-old girl, were killed.

Afterward, McCain characterized the mission as a failure, and Trump responded with a series of tweets defending the Yemen action, and criticizing McCain. The rancor further escalated when Spicer later stated that McCain — or anyone — who “undermines the success of that raid owes an apology and a disservice to life of Chief Owens.”

There is no SEAL mission that is without risk, said Don Mann, a 21-year veteran Navy SEAL, now retired. Mann, the author of “Inside SEAL Team Six: My Life and Missions with America’s Elite Warriors,” said that if the assault team knew ahead of time that it had been compromised, the SEAL commanders on the ground had the ability to abort the raid at any time.

Some reports said that they did know, and went forward anyway.

“The SEALS, unlike other forces, make their decision on the ground and that decision — in this case — cost a life, which is very very tragic, but that’s war,” Mann said.

“These people are good human beings. It weighs heavily on them. Seeing one person die, especially a teammate or friend, is beyond comprehension.”

He said it’s natural that Owens’ loved ones would have questions about what happened, but they shouldn’t be swayed by the politics surrounding the tragedy.

“Nobody knows the truth of what happened except the person on the ground. When politicians get it, they warp it far from the truth,” he said.

Powerful hands

There were so many SEALS at Ryan’s service at Arlington National Cemetery that his father’s arm got tired from shaking so many muscled hands. At the end, before his coffin was lowered, each of the SEALS removed their badges from their uniforms and pounded them one by one into the casket. When it over, the casket was covered in gold eagle tridents.

Bill Owens doesn’t want to talk about Ryan’s wife or his three young children. There are other things that he believes should remain private. He spoke out, he says, at the risk of offending some of his family and friends.  

William Owens said he had deep reservations about the way the decision was made to launch what would be his son’s last mission.Emily MichotMiami Herald Staff

“I’d like some answers about all the things that happened in the timeline that led up to it. I know what the timeline is, and it bothers me a lot,” said Owens, who acknowledges he didn’t vote for Donald Trump.

One aspect of the chain of events that nags at him is the fact that the president signed the order suspending the entry of immigrants from seven Muslim-majority countries, including Yemen, on Jan. 27 — the day before the mission.

Owens wonders whether that affected friendly forces in Yemen who were assisting with the raid.

“It just doesn’t make any sense to do something to antagonize an ally when you’re going to conduct a mission in that country,” he said. “Did we alienate some of the people working with them, translators or support people. Maybe they decided to release information to jeopardize the mission.”

These are only some of the many questions that Owens believes should be thoroughly examined, including the possibility that the decision to move forward with the mission was motivated by politics.

“I think these are valid questions. I don’t want anybody to think I have an agenda, because I don’t. I just want the truth.”

McClatchy reporters Vera Bergengruen and Anita Kumar contributed from Washington.

A life of service

Senior Chief Special Warfare Operator William “Ryan” Owens, 36, of Peoria, Illinois, died Jan. 29, 2017, in Yemen.

▪ Assigned to Team Seal 6.

▪ Enlisted in U.S. Navy in August 1998 and graduated in September 2002.

▪ 12 Deployments. Awards include the Silver Star, Navy and Marine Corps Medal, three Bronze Star Medals of Valor; Purple Heart, Defense Meritorious Service Medal; Two Joint Service Commendation Medals with Valor; Navy and three Marine Corps Achievement Medals.

▪ Married, with three children.


Poster Comment:

“I think these are valid questions. I don’t want anybody to think I have an agenda, because I don’t. I just want the truth.”
(6 images)

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#1. To: hondo68 (#0)

“I think these are valid questions. I don’t want anybody to think I have an agenda, because I don’t. I just want the truth.”

The truth is that he died serving in the army of an empire, sent on a mission with little to gain that meant nothing to Main Street America. Very few US servicemen die in hostile situations, but he was unlucky. You are a father that lost a son, which happens every day. You feel bad, as you should. What else is there to say?

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   3:12:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Pinguinite (#1) (Edited)

William Owens: I think these are valid questions. I don’t want anybody to think I have an agenda, because I don’t. I just want the truth.

Pinguinite: The truth is that he died serving in the army of an empire, sent on a mission with little to gain that meant nothing to Main Street America.

You anti-America libertarian anarchists assholes have no concept of “truth” and all you have presented in your post is a libertarian thematic agenda statement.

Truth is useful if it is aligned with the factual narrative, but you libertarians either ignore, stretch or improvise a narrative to support your bullshit political philosophy.

You called America an “empire.”

Why do you intentionally post that misrepresentation?

You know full well that an empire is defined is “a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially: one having an emperor as chief of state.”

America is not an “empire” where our head of state is an emperor. We are a republic where our president and elected individuals represent the citizen body. Get that through your thick libertarian skull and let it soak in.

You say Owens was “sent on a mission with little to gain.” You have absolutely no ability to make that determination while sitting on your fat civilian ass in Costa Rica.

Seal Team 6 mission was a nighttime raid on Jan. 29 targeting a rural compound in southern Yemen believed to be a key planning location for al- Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). The mission was designed as an intelligence-gathering mission on the terror group.

In the fight against ISIS, military intelligence is of the utmost urgency and the reason that is important to “Main Street America” is the continuing effort in a struggle to prevent in America what is happening on “Main Streets” in cities throughout Europe today….that is, terrorists running wild causing havoc and killing innocent people.

I can see where you cannot understand all of this….your blind obsession with your libertarian convictions prohibits you from doing so.

“I want an investigation,” Owens’ father, William Owens said. “The government owes my son an investigation.”

William Owens is already getting that investigation.

Actually there are three investigations underway into the SEAL Team Six raid in Yemen last month that killed William “Ryan” Owens and some civilians.

  • There is a 15-6 investigation underway into the circumstances of Owens' death that is being conducted by the Navy. It allows commands to appoint investigating officers to conduct informal investigations of a military incident or military fatality. The deaths of all American service members deployed overseas lead to investigations. Family members are provided with copies of the final investigation reports.

  • Then there is a separate investigation under way to determine the procedures and circumstances that led to the destruction of a Marine MV-22 Osprey called in to medevac SEALS wounded in the intense firefight. The Osprey became inoperable after the crew made a "hard landing" that injured crew-members and disabled the aircraft.

  • Finally, there is an investigation being conducted for a civilian casualty credibility assessment that is triggered when allegations of civilian casualties are made, according to military officials.
So, it is easy to see that there already are multiple investigations going on concerning this.
What else is there to say?
Actually, nothing at this time….maybe there will be after all the investigations already underway are completed.

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-02   7:36:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: hondo68 (#0)

Owens, also a military veteran, was troubled by Trump’s harsh treatment of a Gold Star family during his presidential campaign. Now Owens was a Gold Star parent, and he said he had deep reservations about the way the decision was made to launch what would be his son’s last mission.

Yes I believe there is more to the story than his sons death.

These plans are put forward by DOD and signed off by the president who must believe in what the DOD tells him. To me this is demoncrap sabotage! Obama and his lackey's should be blamed! Trump had been in office all of 9 days.

Justified  posted on  2017-03-02   8:40:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Justified (#3) (Edited)

To me this is demoncrap sabotage!
Yes, it is!
White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer confirmed in a briefing Thursday that the planning for a recent SEAL Team Six raid on an al-Qaida headquarters in Yemen began in November under then President Barack Obama.

Some have criticized the operation as poorly planned.

Spicer disclosed the timeline of the raid, along with details pertaining to each step of the planning process.

On Nov. 7, U.S. Central Command submitted the proposal for the raid to the Department of Defense, Spicer said. “Clearly, that was under the last administration,” he said.

Some time after, legal teams became involved to vet the plan.

On Dec. 19, the DoD approved the raid and forwarded it to the White House National Security Council. On Jan. 6, an interagency deputies meeting was convened in order to review plans for the raid and confirm it.

It was decided to postpone the plan until the next “moonless night,” which would not occur until after President Donald Trump took office Jan. 20. On Jan. 24, Defense Secretary James Mattis expressed his support for the plan and sent a follow-up memo to Trump.

The next day, on Jan. 25, National Security Adviser Michael Flynn briefed Trump on Mattis’ recommendation and on the status of the operation.

Trump would go on to meet with Mattis and Gen. Joe Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and hold a dinner meeting with national security staff to make final arrangements.

On Jan. 26, the deputies met again to reaffirm their support for the operation, at which point Trump signed the memo to green-light the raid.

Spicer described the operation as a “very, very well thought-out and executed effort” conducted against one of al-Qaida’s most prolific branches.

“When you think of the loss of life throughout America and institutions and in terms of the world, in terms of what some of the individuals could have done, I think it is a successful operation by all standards,” Spicer added.

Several terror leaders were reportedly killed in the raid. However, some critics alleged insufficient planning went into the process, leading to civilian casualties. In particular, Reuters reported at least 10 Yemeni women and children were killed.

Pentagon spokesman Capt. Jeff Davis disputed the report, saying the women who were killed were firing at U.S. forces.

SEAL Team Six member William Ryan Owens was killed in the operation, and three others were wounded.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/white-house-reveals-timeline-of- seal-team-six-raid-planning-started-under-obama/

“Power is like being a lady... if you have to tell people you are, you aren't.” ~ Margaret Thatcher.
William Owens: I don’t want anybody to think I have an agenda, because I don’t.
Paraphrasing Margaret Thatcher: “If you have to tell people that you don’t have an agenda, it is because you do.”
… Owens “said he was also troubled by the attack Trump leveled at Khizr and Ghazala Kahn, an American Muslim family whose Army officer son died in Iraq in 2004.” After the Khans spoke in favor of Hillary Clinton at the convention, Trump had criticized the Gold Star parents.

http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/bill-owens-william-ryan- yemen-navy-seal-trump-father-dad-son-investigation-khan-donald/

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-02   9:10:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Gatlin (#4)

Yep. It takes more than 9 days to plan an operation of this type and the president is not the one doing the planning.

My brother and I were discussing this and we think Obama the POS has left Trump a bunch of obummer droppings to clean up to keep Trump busy. When will the GOP and Americans realize how sorry the demoncrap party has become! This is were Bush failed the most by not routing out all of the demoncrap operatives when he took office. Demoncraps are the enemy of the people and should be hunted down and shipped to Cuba or Venezuela where their policies are in full force for all to see and feel.

Justified  posted on  2017-03-02   9:21:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Justified (#5)

... Obama the POS has left Trump a bunch of obummer droppings to clean up to keep Trump busy. When will the GOP and Americans realize how sorry the demoncrap party has become! This is were Bush failed the most by not routing out all of the demoncrap operatives when he took office. Demoncraps are the enemy of the people and should be hunted down and shipped to Cuba or Venezuela where their policies are in full force for all to see and feel.

ABSOLUTELY ...

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-02   9:25:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Justified (#3) (Edited)

In addition, may I add that this was a planned action under Obama and Hillary Clinton. Her emails were hacked, so they could have been sitting ducks.

Special OPs are top secret. Even parents are not permitted to know where their child is located. There will be little to know in the investigations that the father will learn. Their missions are top secret because they involve National Security.

I'm sad that Mr. Owens lost his son. It's so devastating to parents and loved ones.

I watched his interview and had the distinct impression that he was doing this for political reasons. He definitely is out to get Trump, blaming him for an action that was created by O & Hill. Trump did approve the action and it went forward.

It is also my understanding that the Seal was estranged by his father, that there were problems with all of his sons vs. their father.

I am so sad for our military men who die & those wounded. I am supportive of our troops.

The Seal is a hero. He gave his life to expose Yemen and I do believe that the mission was a success. They provided much needed intelligence from the mission.

Rest in peace, Seal Owens. Prayers up for you and your loved ones. Thank you for your service and I honor you for your sacrifice that resulted in much needed intelligence aka Terrorism and those who finance ISIS actions. Just imho.

borntoweardiamonds  posted on  2017-03-02   9:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Gatlin (#4)

"Trump had criticized the Gold Star parents."

"Mr. Trump told Mr. Stephanopoulos that Mr. Khan seemed like a “nice guy” and that he wished him “the best of luck.” But, he added, “If you look at his wife, she was standing there, she had nothing to say, she probably — maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say, you tell me.”

That's it. That's Trump's "criticism" of the Gold Star parents -- which was 100 times less harsh than the undeserved criticism he received from Mr. Khan.

misterwhite  posted on  2017-03-02   10:22:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Pinguinite (#1)

The truth is that he died serving in the army of an empire, sent on a mission with little to gain that meant nothing to Main Street America.

The mission, if you trust the intel reports, was considered to have a good chance of catching or killing some of the most senior AQAP leaders. They were known to have been at this location, some of them for a period. It was some kind of safe compound for them.

The SEALs did capture/kill several midlevel AQAP leaders but Mattis claims they also got terrabytes of AQ records from multiple hard drives.

I don't recall so much fuss over other past SEAL deaths. A few years ago, many of the SEAL Team Six went out to a firebase. Having dealt with their mission, they were being evacuated and some jihadi snuck in close and killed around 15 of them with a grenade launcher as their Chinook helicopter lifted off. They were sitting ducks.

Anyway, there is a lot of talk and attention on just this one SEAL. We've lost many others as well. For that matter, any soldier we lose loses just as much as this SEAL when they get killed. Their families lose just as much as this SEAL's family.

There is a bit of a downside to elevating special forces so much in the public's estimation.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   10:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Justified (#3)

Obama and his lackey's should be blamed! Trump had been in office all of 9 days.

Trump and Pence and Flynn and probably Mattis were all getting the presidential daily brief. They knew of this operation for a month, knew it had been sidelined to wait for a moonlit night, knew when they were likely to be asked to give the command for the operation.

So this was no surprise to them and they had plenty of chances to examine the underlying intel offered by the IC.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   10:33:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Tooconservative (#9)

The SEALs did capture/kill several midlevel AQAP leaders but Mattis claims they also got terrabytes of AQ records from multiple hard drives.

According to reports, they also killed a great number of women and children who were not deemed to be terrorists. If that's true, then such killings are completely counter productive to the point of killing actual "terrorists" (as much as that term applies when foreign military pays a visit to kill people on their own native land) as it encourages relatives and family friends to join up in the terrorists cause or at minimum, elicit enormous public sympathy for them and against the USA.

I know this action was no different from those carried out by Obama. In this regard I generally did not expect anything different from Trump, at least at first, so for me this is not about Trump vs Obama. This is about the accepted strategy of trying to stamp out terrorism by engaging in terrorism.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   11:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Pinguinite (#11)

According to reports, they also killed a great number of women and children who were not deemed to be terrorists.

I think you know that has happened many times over the last 15 years. The media could have cared less until some hated Republican was president. Then suddenly it's a five-alarm fire or something.

0bama killed off thousands in his drone strikes and raids. Probably in the tens of thousands but we only have proof of so many at present. More will come out in coming years.

So let's not get too shocked that our operations result in civilian deaths just because we don't have some jug-eared Harvard man to order the slaughters in the name of America.

This is about the accepted strategy of trying to stamp out terrorism by engaging in terrorism.

They were after AQAP leaders and intel. They were not out to incite terror in the general population of Yemen. The purpose of terrorism is to pursue political change by the threat of and acts of extreme violence. Clearly, that was not what our SEALs were there for.

Just because people died doesn't make it terrorism. Or a war crime, which is what you're saying amounts to.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   11:34:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Tooconservative (#12)

I think you know that has happened many times over the last 15 years. The media could have cared less until some hated Republican was president. Then suddenly it's a five-alarm fire or something.

Of course. Most MSM media hates Trump, and yes Obama and Bush were pretty much brothers when it came to drone strikes and killing. I'm not talking about that though.

Just because people died doesn't make it terrorism. Or a war crime, which is what you're saying amounts to.

It's not whether you or I define it as terrorism or a legit military operation. It's what the people on site consider it to be. For the parents and families of the innocent people killed, the SEAL operation was absolutely an unforgivable terrorist act by an unreachable imperial evil force that will not be held accountable, and there is no American that can look them in the face and tell them differently with any amount of credibility. Trying to logically explain to them about how bad the bad guys were and how helpful the terabytes of data gained are will probably get you shot, and that if you're lucky, and not because they are necessarily "terrorists" themselves. Indeed, there are more than a few people both on LF and 4um who are on record as being willing to respond to the same if such killings happened to their family.

We need to see these actions in the way the citizens of foreign countries see them, and not only as we Americans might see them.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   12:44:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Pinguinite (#13)

Most MSM media hates Trump, and yes Obama and Bush were pretty much brothers when it came to drone strikes and killing.

Bush did order up the squadrons of armed drones but they didn't really all come online and get deployed until 0bama was in office. 0bama is the Drone Killer, far more so than Bush. And I see some reporting indicating that Trump may offload those decisions onto Mattis, perhaps just to keep his own hands clean. Toward the end, 0bama started doing that after some people started calling him Prez Dronekill and other names.

It's not whether you or I define it as terrorism or a legit military operation. It's what the people on site consider it to be. For the parents and families of the innocent people killed, the SEAL operation was absolutely an unforgivable terrorist act by an unreachable imperial evil force that will not be held accountable, and there is no American that can look them in the face and tell them differently with any amount of credibility.

Most likely, it was civilians caught when missiles/bombs hit. Or there were more civilians in the compound than anyone knew about. Or they got caught in a crossfire.

I doubt this was some My Lai incident. Nothing points to deliberate intent.

Terrorism requires intent to...terrorize. Our SEALs aren't in that business but they do like to terrorize terrorists. But not civilians.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   13:04:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Pinguinite, USA World Police, Exceptional Terrorism, Gatlin, tater empire, Tooconservative, *Neo-Lib Chickenhawk Wars* (#11)

The U.S.-supported Nicaraguan contras.


This is about the accepted strategy of trying to stamp out terrorism by engaging in terrorism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine#The_.22Roosevelt_Corollary.22

Yes it's an empire, terrorism based like they all are.

Ending terrorism starts at home! The D&R terrorists must be defeated, and they will be.


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party

"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2017-03-02   13:49:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Tooconservative (#14)

Terrorism requires intent to...terrorize. Our SEALs aren't in that business but they do like to terrorize terrorists. But not civilians.

I think it's very safe to say the civilians on site would vehemently disagree.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   13:50:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Tooconservative, *Arab Spring Jihad* (#14) (Edited)

intent to...terrorize. Our SEALs aren't in that business

They're soldiers they don't set policy, they follow orders. The blame lies with the Commander in Chief, President Trump. The buck stops in the Oval Office.


The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party

"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Hondo68  posted on  2017-03-02   13:56:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Pinguinite (#16)

I think it's very safe to say the civilians on site would vehemently disagree.

The same might be said in domestic policing where bystanders would accuse cops of behaving like terrorists. That does not make it true.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   14:06:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Pinguinite (#13)

We need to see these actions in the way the citizens of foreign countries see them, and not only as we Americans might see them.

That sounds exactly like something Obama would say….and the policy he followed.

Wait…IT WAS.

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-02   14:41:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Tooconservative (#18)

TC.... children were killed that would otherwise still be alive today if this operation hadn't happened. To accept their deaths as unavoidable collateral damage that was necessary for the greater good plants seeds of gross immorality.

I'm sure some ISIS militants see things the exact same way as you seem to. The killing of innocents is just part of what's necessary to bring about the greater good. The only difference in one's perception of "the greater good".

Pray tell, what is the difference between the end result of ISIS and US SEALS, beyond the cause for which they kill innocent people?

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   15:13:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Pinguinite (#1)

The truth is that he died serving in the army of an empire, sent on a mission with little to gain ...

HorseHillary! He went on what amounts to a defensive mission against people who had attacked us in the past,and who represent a current danger.

that meant nothing to Main Street America.

That part is true,but it is meaningless because he did it for America,not applause.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   15:53:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Justified (#5)

Yep. It takes more than 9 days to plan an operation of this type and the president is not the one doing the planning.

Nor should he have been. There is a set of VERY specific knowledge and experience required to plan and carry out these operations,and amateur advise is neither sought or accepted.

Given what I know about the Navy,chances are the only acceptable answer there is "Aye,Aye,Sir!6 bags full,Sir!"

In Army special operations if they tried to float some crap past us that unnecessarily added risk to both us and the successful outcome of the operation,we would tell them to blow it out their asses because we weren't going. YOU want to plan the op,YOU can run the damn op!

What kind of fool are you that you hire pros to do a job,and then you want to tell them how to do it?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   15:59:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: borntoweardiamonds (#7) (Edited)

Special OPs are top secret. Even parents are not permitted to know where their child is located.

Nor is the wife or anyone else. All she knows is her husband and his team are in isolation for a unspecified length of time,it may just be a training mission,and no one knows where they are going or what they will do once them get there. EVERYTHING is strictly "need to know".

I don't know how it is in the anal Navy,but in the army it is the team that makes all the plans after being told where they are going and what the goal of the mission is. Before the launch date they give a briefing to the overall commander and his staff while still in isolation so the commander knows what is going on and what to expect. The commander has the authority to scrub the mission if he doesn't approve the mission plan,and he has the authority to replace the team with another team if he wants. What he doesn't have is the authority to tell the team how to do it. He,or anyone else in the room can make suggestions and is free to do so,but they don't give orders. Only the team leader decides how it is going to be done and what is needed to do it.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Tooconservative (#9)

The SEALs did capture/kill several midlevel AQAP leaders but Mattis claims they also got terrabytes of AQ records from multiple hard drives.

Regardless of if they did or not,they will deny capturing anything. These are VERY bright people,not fools.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:10:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Tooconservative (#10)

So this was no surprise to them and they had plenty of chances to examine the underlying intel offered by the IC.

HorseHillary! Yeah,they could have examined it,but they would have had no idea what it was they were examining because they had no experience or background doing this sort of thing. This really is pretty specialized "work" and it really does require the sharpest operators each branch of the service can come up with. Stupid people or people that can't think on their feet don't make it to graduation because in the real world of operations they won't live long enough to make it worthwhile to try to train them,and they put their teammates at risk.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:14:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Pinguinite (#11) (Edited)

According to reports, they also killed a great number of women and children who were not deemed to be terrorists.

And of course you believe the raghead reports because they have such a well-deserved reputation of making sure their women and children are safe,right?

Seen that "Last man standing" movie about the SEAL team that when into one of the Shitstainistans to take out a terrorist leader,and everybody on the team was killed but the team leader because they team leader lacked the balls necessary to either kill or tie up and sedate two young teen goatherders that walked right up on them in hiding? That whole damn team was killed because the team leader had a mindset similar to yours.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:15:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Pinguinite (#13)

For the parents and families of the innocent people killed

There WERE no innocent people killed,you bleeping idiot! They were guerillas in a guerilla-controlled area,so they were all combatants. It was the two 13 or so year old boys that the idiot SEAL team leader turned loose because he didn't have the stones to kill them or tie them up and sedate them. He turned them loose,and they ran right back home and raised the villagers to pick up their AK's and RPG's and come after the SEAL Team. As a result,the SEAL team not only failed to accomplish their mission of taking out a terrorist leader,they were also all killed by the villages,with the exception of the idiot team leader.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:22:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Tooconservative (#14)

Most likely, it was civilians caught when missiles/bombs hit. Or there were more civilians in the compound than anyone knew about. Or they got caught in a crossfire.

EVERYBODY in and around a village controlled by insurgents is a civilian because they are guerillas and don't wear uniforms and are not a part of a regular army. including the women and children who help carry ammo and load and fire guns.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:24:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: hondo68 (#17)

They're soldiers they don't set policy, they follow orders. The blame lies with the Commander in Chief, President Trump. The buck stops in the Oval Office.

You have absolutely no experience or knowledge of combat operations,do you?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Pinguinite (#20)

TC.... children were killed that would otherwise still be alive today if this operation hadn't happened. To accept their deaths as unavoidable collateral damage that was necessary for the greater good plants seeds of gross immorality.

Cry me a bleeping river. IF there were any children killed,they were killed because their parents were insurgent fighters who had their children living with them. Sometimes these people actually push women and children out in front of them to use as human sandbags for cover because they know that Americans are reluctant to shoot at women and children.

I guess if you were there you would choose to have your whole team as well as yourself die because you were afraid of harming the wives and children of the goat rapists hiding behind them and shooting at you?

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   16:29:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Pinguinite (#20)

TC.... children were killed that would otherwise still be alive today if this operation hadn't happened. To accept their deaths as unavoidable collateral damage that was necessary for the greater good plants seeds of gross immorality.

These terrorists have a demonstrated pattern of hiding behind civilians. We see if over and over.

Pray tell, what is the difference between the end result of ISIS and US SEALS, beyond the cause for which they kill innocent people?

Our SEALs don't hide behind women and children. And in Yemen, it was AQAP, not ISIS.

You might more readily criticize 0bama and Trump for being too willing to do the Saudis' bidding to keep the royal family secure. Nevertheless we do use our SEAL teams against a variety of enemies in addition to ISIS.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   20:55:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: sneakypete (#24)

Regardless of if they did or not,they will deny capturing anything.

Multiple sources in the administration have stated they got terrabytes of info on multiple external hard drives.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   20:59:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: sneakypete, Pinguinite (#30)

DailyWire:

On Thursday, CNN reported that the US “is now taking action to locate and monitor hundreds of people or ‘contacts’ found as part the intelligence retrieved during the deadly raid last month in Yemen targeting al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.” According to CNN, defense officials have confirmed that “information pertaining to the location of safe havens, explosives manufacturing, training and targets was acquired in the January ground operation."

Sounds like Yemeni villagers hiding AQAP terrorists.

Not a direct threat to us, not members of ISIS.

In the future, maybe the Saudis should do their own wet work.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   21:47:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: sneakypete (#27)

There WERE no innocent people killed,you bleeping idiot!

Okay, Sneaky, I want to slowly take your hand off mouse, and the keyboard, and then stand up and step baaaaaaaaaack from the PC. Very, very slowly. Real gentle like!

Then take a deeeeeep breath, turn to a window and look at something pleasant faaaaaaar away.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-02   23:02:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Tooconservative (#33)

In the future, maybe the Saudis should do their own wet work.

For the first time ever.

BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO!

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2017-03-02   23:14:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: sneakypete, Pinguinite (#35)

Apparently, there are two teams of competing leakers on the supposed value of the Yemen hard drives seized in the raid. The ones leaking to NBC say it was worthless. The ones leaking to DailyWire and CNN say it had huge intel value. Who to believe out of all these scumbag leakers?

HotAir: U.S. working to identify hundreds of Al Qaeda contacts discovered from material seized in Yemen raid

One thing is for certain: highly-placed individuals are leaking and they are lying. There can be no doubt. One group or the other is lying to try to destroy Trump's efforts and his appointees.

A lot of people need to be fired. This leaking is going to render the WH incapable of doing anything classified.

At this point, we don't know what we don't know but we do know there is a lot of lying going on, much of it just anti-Trump subversion by former 0bama operatives who still haven't been replaced.

Tooconservative  posted on  2017-03-02   23:32:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: sneakypete (#26)

And of course you believe the raghead reports because they have such a well-deserved reputation of making sure their women and children are safe,right?

Well, Sneaky, good point. I wasn't there. But the implication of what you say is that I should start believing more credible news sources, like perhaps CNN. If it's true no innocent people were killed, that's great. And a further implication is that the US Military has never killed any innocent people anywhere in it's ongoing undeclared war against people deemed a threat, even though through 8 years of the Obama administration, a US bomb was dropped against human targets ever 20 minutes. Obviously, that is not a credible suggestion.

Seen that "Last man standing" movie about the SEAL team that when into one of the Shitstainistans to take out a terrorist leader,and everybody on the team was killed but the team leader because they team leader lacked the balls necessary to either kill or tie up and sedate two young teen goatherders that walked right up on them in hiding?

Well, then, the thing to do is just nuke these entire regions. They are all ragheads, they are all enemies of the United States, and they all have ICBMs and control nukes currently in orbit. Kill, kill, kill. It's what America stands for.

That whole damn team was killed because the team leader had a mindset similar to yours.

Thank you sneaky, for implying that I am actually the one guilty of killing innocent people.

Have a nice day.

Pinguinite  posted on  2017-03-03   1:27:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Tooconservative (#33)

Not a direct threat to us, not members of ISIS.

In the future, maybe the Saudis should do their own wet work.

Saudi Arabia is on the side of AQ in Yemen. Yakla Village is an enclave surrounded by Houthi held territory.

We have sided against the Houthis in the deep state's favored role for America as a Saudi client state. Yakla is a pink pimple in green Houthi territory waiting to be popped. We should do nothing to keep Yakla from meeting that fate, for example we should not be interdicting Iranian supplies to the Houthis. Yemen is a front in a Shia (Houthi) versus Sunni religious war, the bloodiest type of war. It is in our interest that the flames be fanned rather than damped.

A great weakness of America is not knowing when to leave well enough alone. A lot of times things will break your way without you doing anything, this type of war is a prime example. Jimmy Stewart had an excellent chance to solve his Liberty Valance problem in the steak scene with John Wayne. But he had to get all high minded about violence, when John Wayne was ready to solve his Liberty Valance problem. This was a situation where someone else's violence was going to solve his problem, and he was too stupid to take it.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth with stupid crap like human rights and such. And in the end it was John Wayne whe ended up solving his Liberty Valance problem anyway!

Non auro, sed ferro, recuperando est patria

nativist nationalist  posted on  2017-03-03   1:37:45 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: (#37)

Thank you sneaky, for implying that I am actually the one guilty of killing innocent people.

Have a nice day.

I followed your exchange with Pinguinite and I am now convinced more that I was before that Pinguinite is an uninformed biased asshole.

He marches to a different drumbeat and has formulated his own personal rules of engagement to define the circumstances, conditions, degree and manner in which he sees fit for the use of force….which is never. He finds all military rules of engagement to be provocative and must not be applied. He fails to understand that ISIS is using women and children as combatants.

ISIS leadership has taken to using child soldiers to carry out supply runs and executions.

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-03   3:38:43 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: sneakypete (#39)

Post 39 is for you...

Gatlin  posted on  2017-03-03   3:40:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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