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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: Mythical inalienable rights.? Source: Crazy Guy URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 6, 2017 Author: nolu chan Post Date: 2017-02-06 03:25:38 by tpaine Keywords: None Views: 19909 Comments: 56 Nolu Chan has just posted another rather remarkable claim. (It is an) --- insufferable claim that RKBA is an inalienable right given by God Almighty hisself. The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the mythical inalienable rights. nolu chan posted on 2017-02-06 Poster Comment: Any comments? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 54. #2. To: tpaine (#0) Nolu is a bright guy. He has a sharp legal mind, but a Pharisaic one, like Paul of Tarsus. He believes in the rule of law above all other things. Now, what he said there is absolutely true, in the sense that if your right to life truly were UNALIENABLE, then you could not be executed for crimes. (To argue with ME, Nolu would point out - correctly again - that "unalienable" does not mean somebody can't take it from you in punishment for crime, just that you cannot contract it away). Once again, that would be his assertion of the rule of law as the supreme rule of life. Obviously lawyers like the idea of Rule-of-Law uber alles, the "Master Key", because they possess it and, therefore, have greater power than others. All of these things are always about power and fear. On another thread, strict legalism was being used to justify (as if that were possible) the German invasion of France and the Low Countries and Scandinavia and Poland in World War II. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-06   6:45:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: Vicomte13 (#2) On another thread, strict legalism was being used to justify (as if that were possible) the German invasion of France and the Low Countries and Scandinavia and Poland in World War II. Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   16:41:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: nolu chan (#7) Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. You're not as smart as I made you out to be. Belgium did not declare war on Germany. Holland did not declare war on Germany. Luxembourg didn't. Denmark didn't. Norway didn't. Nor did any of them attack Germany, carry out cross-border raids, anything. They were simply invaded by the Germans, because the Nazis were criminal thugs who broke the peace. That's why they were tried and hanged as criminals, breakers of the peace, when the war was over. They broke the law when they invaded Poland. That gave France and Britain, and Russia and everybody else, the RIGHT to attack them. The UK and France declared war, justly. You say that gave the Germans the "right" to invade France - sort of like a criminal has the "right" to go in an shoot up a police station because they are trying to stop him. But none of that list of countries above declared war on Germany. The Germans overran them anyway, completely without a fig leaf of justification. They were murderers, and criminals. And they paid for their crimes very dearly. I'm surprised that you don't see that. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-08   17:01:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Vicomte13 (#9) Bullshit. http://www2.libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49601&Disp=9#C9 [Vicomte13 #9] The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France. France declared war on Germany. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France? Who could have done such a thing? A country should not declare a war it is not prepared to fight. By declaring war, France made the subsequent German attack on France lawful. You're not as smart as I made you out to be. Belgium did not declare war on Germany. Holland did not declare war on Germany. Luxembourg didn't. Denmark didn't. Norway didn't. I did not say Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or Norway declared war on Germany. Vicomte13 said: The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer ... France. France did declare war on Germany. The UK and France declared war, justly. You say that gave the Germans the "right" to invade France - sort of like a criminal has the "right" to go in an shoot up a police station because they are trying to stop him. The question is not whether France's declaration of was was "just" or "unjust." Germany had not attacked France and had not declared war against France. Ditto the United States. France declared war on Germany on 3 Sep 1939. So you mean that when France declared war on Germany, Germany was supposed to surrender to France? If France declares war against Germany (or anyone else), the other party has the right to take them seriously and conquer them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France In 1939, Britain and France offered military support to Poland in the likely case of a German invasion. In the dawn of 1 September 1939, the German Invasion of Poland began. France and the United Kingdom declared war on 3 September, after an ultimatum for German forces to immediately withdraw their forces from Poland was met without reply. Following this, Australia (3 September), New Zealand (3 September), South Africa (6 September) and Canada (10 September), declared war on Germany. British and French commitments to Poland were met politically but they adopted a long-war strategy and mobilised for defensive land operations against Germany, while a trade blockade was imposed and the pre-war re-armament was accelerated, ready for an eventual invasion of Germany. On 7 September, in accordance with their alliance with Poland, France began the Saar Offensive with an advance from the Maginot Line 5 km (3.1 mi) into the German-occupied Saar. France had mobilised 98 divisions (all but 28 of them reserve or fortress formations) and 2,500 tanks against a German force consisting of 43 divisions (32 of them reserves) and no tanks. The French advanced until they met the then thin and undermanned Siegfried Line. On 17 September, the French supreme commander, Maurice Gamelin gave the order to withdraw French troops to their starting positions; the last of them left Germany on 17 October. Following the Saar Offensive, a period of inaction called the Phoney War (the French Drôle de guerre, joke war or the German Sitzkrieg, sitting war) set in between the belligerents. [...] On 10 October 1939, Britain refused Hitler's offer of peace and on 12 October, France did the same. [...] So, France offered military assistance to Poland if they were attacked. Poland was attacked. Poland fell. France came from behind the Maginot Line and held a 10-day parade and retreated, not doing much good for Poland. The invasion of Belgium, Holland, and France was conducted in 1940. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France Popular reaction in Germany Hitler had expected a million Germans to die in conquering France; instead, his goal was accomplished in just six weeks with only 27,000 Germans killed, 18,400 missing, and 111,000 wounded, a little more than one third of the total German casualties in the Battle of Verdun during World War I. The unexpectedly swift victory resulted in a wave of euphoria among the German population and a strong upsurge in war-fever. Hitler's personal popularity reached its peak with the celebration of France's capitulation on 6 July 1940: Germany sought to get to the Atlantic in order to attack Britain who had also declared war against Germany. It appears they chose the path of least resistance. If France was prepared to fight a war, it should have not declared one. Vicomte13 wrote, "The Germans should not have been permitted to conquer Belgium and France." WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France??? The United States had not been attacked and was not at war. It was in a declared state of neutrality until after the attack on Pearl Harbor. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   18:33:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: nolu chan (#14) WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France??? The civilized world. Germany committed the crime of starting the war. They defeated Poland, then invaded their little Western neighbors - more crime - and of course overran France. They were too weak to take out Britain, were defeated at sea by the British Navy, and defeated in the air by the Royal Air Force. And so then it was just a matter of time, for Britain to wait while Germany, cut off from international trade, slowly imploded as in World War I. The Germans doubled down their madness and invaded Russia, which they did not have the right to do either. And then they declared war on the USA, also, after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. So, at war with every other major power on the planet except Japan, they sank under the weight of the combined forces of their enemies, who swamped them. But when it was just 1 on 1 versus the British, the Germans lost in the air, they lost on the sea, and they lost in North Africa also, where they faced off on land. Starting the war in the first place by invading another country was a criminal act. It was a criminal act that was bound to have war as a repercussion. The Germans were so delusive they actually thought they could win. So, they were criminal madmen. And they ended up swinging at the end of a rope, or against the wall in a firing squad. And that was that. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-08   19:04:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Vicomte13 (#19) WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France??? The civilized world. So, France declared war on Germany, and it was the duty of some amorphous "civilized world" to bail their ass out and fight their war for them. Who in that "civilized world" could have prevented Germany from overrunning France? What power, short of the Marvel Comics superheroes could have accomplished this mission impossible? Germany committed the crime of starting the war. They defeated Poland, then invaded their little Western neighbors - more crime - and of course overran France. They were too weak to take out Britain, were defeated at sea by the British Navy, and defeated in the air by the Royal Air Force. Whatever Germany did, they did not unlawfully attack France. France declared war on Germany. France made themselves a valid target of acts of war. The United States had no obligation to fight a war because France declared one against Germany. You fantasize that Germany lacked the power to take out Britain and that they were defeated in the air by the Royal Air Force. In truth, Germany ran the British off the continent and back to their island. The Germans did not surrender at Dunkirk. The British Army escaped across the water. The Germans lacked the attack or transport vessels to invade by sea. The Germans were primarily stopped by the Russians, and defeated by the Russians and Americans. It was the Russians who inflicted the most casualties against the Germans. The Royal Navy hardly defeated the Germans at sea. You seem to have mistaken them for the United States Navy. Germany did not exactly have a huge navy to start with. The British did as well as they did only because of the massive assistance, and the full scale entry, of the United States. Declaration of war. A public and formal proclamation by a nation, through its executive or legislative department, that a state of wr exists between itself and another nation, and forbidding all persons to aid or assist the enemy. Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. B. Formalities and recognition 69. LOIAC relates to hostilities carried out between sovereign States, regard-less of any formal declaration of war.155 Indeed, there does not even have to be recognition of a formal state of war. The reason is that war between sovereign States can exist either in the technical sense (commencing with a formal declaration of war by one State against its adversary) or in the material sense (namely, as a result of the comprehensive use of armed force in the relations between two States, irrespective of any formal declaration).156 70. LOIAC is brought to bear upon the conduct of hostilities between sovereign States, even if these hostilities fall short of war, namely, constitute a mere incident.157 Common Article 2 of the Geneva Conventions appropriately proclaims in its first paragraph: [T]he present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.158 - - - - - - - - - - 155 See C. Greenwood, 'Scope of Application of Humanitarian Law', Handbook 45, 49. 156 On the distinction between war in the technical and in the material sense, see Dinstein, supra note 12, at 9-10. 157 See ibid., 17. 158 Geneva Convention (I), supra note 27, at 461; Geneva Convention (II), supra note 66, at 487; Geneva Convention (III), supra note 20, at 512; Geneva Convention (IV), supra note 66, at 580. You seem to want to digress into the entirety of WW2 in your effort to not explain how it was somehow illegal for Germany to attact France after France declared war on Germany, or to identify WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France, or by what miracle France was to be saved from itself. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-11   1:05:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: nolu chan (#44) You seem to want to digress into the entirety of WW2 in your effort to not explain how it was somehow illegal for Germany to attact France after France declared war on Germany, or to identify WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France, or by what miracle France was to be saved from itself. It was illegal for Germany to attack France after the French declared war on them. Because the French declared war on them, along with the British, for committing the illegal act of murdering Poland. The Germans breached the peace first. That gave everybody the right to pile on them. It did NOT give the Germans the right to defend themselves any more than a criminal has the right to defend himself against the cops. The Germans became criminals when they invaded Poland. That they were able to then go murder a bunch of other free countries including France, and bomb England flat before attacking the USSR and FINALLY getting plowed under by everybody was because the United States chose to pretend in the 1930s that what happened in the outside world was none of our affair, and also because the Soviets decided to let the West tear itself apart. But the world came to get us eventually too, when the bad guys were a lot stronger and could kill a lot more of us. The Germans eventually went after Russia and 25 million died. The LESSON that everybody learned from this - particularly the Americans and the Russians - was to not let anybody who breaks the peace in Europe get away with it at all. When they START to go rogue, you occupy them and crush it out. Had the US stood by the Western democracies after Germany invaded Poland, or at least after they overran Denmark and Norway, Tens of millions of lives would have been saved. That's why we have the United Nations today - to stop that sort of imperial evil from getting started again. You're focusing on France to try to troll me, but France was just another one of the victims. The aggressors were the Germans. They started the war by invading Poland, once they did that, everybody had the right to attack them, and the duty to do so. Important and unimportant countries shirked their duty, with the net result that they all lost tens or hundreds of thousands or millions dead. You stop the criminals when they start. You don't let them get big and powerful. Had James Buchanan moved on the South immediately, the Civil War would not have had to go on as long as it did, and Sherman would not have had to burn Georgia to the ground. But he didn't. He let the rebels get on a head of steam, and then we had to kill a half-million of them to get it over with. It's never good to let criminals get on a head of steam. You need to nip that sort of thing in the bud early. France and Britain did the right thing, declaring on Germany. Russia and America did the wrong thing, staying out of it. We paid dearly for that, the Russians even dearer. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-11   7:58:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: Vicomte13 (#45) It was illegal for Germany to attack France after the French declared war on them. France declared war and waged war. The German response re France was entirely lawful. The LESSON that everybody learned from this - particularly the Americans and the Russians - was to not let anybody who breaks the peace in Europe get away with it at all. When they START to go rogue, you occupy them and crush it out. Crimea. You're focusing on France to try to troll me, I keep returning you to France because you made a ridiculous statement about France. If you declare war against someone, and invade and attack them, expect them to shoot back. And as I wrote at #44: You seem to want to digress into the entirety of WW2 in your effort to not explain how it was somehow illegal for Germany to attact France after France declared war on Germany, or to identify WHO was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France, or by what miracle France was to be saved from itself. Now you have digressed to the American Civil War. Who was supposed to "not permit" Germany to conquer France, or by what miracle was France to be saved from itself? From the time of the invasion to surrender, it was only a couple of weeks longer than the Israeli Six-Day War. The United States is not obligated to fight every war started by the royalty and effetes of Europe engaging in another chapter of Game of Thrones. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-13   20:00:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: nolu chan (#46) France, Britain, Russia and America had the right, and the duty, to declare war on Germany when Germany invaded Poland. And the Belgians, Dutch and Danes should have been right there with them, permitting allied forces to sweep through. Nobody did that. The only people who stood up to fight were the French and the British. The Americans pretended that it wasn't our fight. Of course it was our fight, we were just too myopic to see it then. So miserable little Nazi Germany was able to get very strong and murderous and we lost a half- million of our own people putting a genie back in the bottle that could have been stopped for a few hundred casualties in 1939-1940. France and Britain did not know they were going to be overwhelmed by the German criminals, but they were. Fortunately, Britain had a body of water. At the end of the war, the Germans was rightly accused of being war criminals for having started the war, and they were tried, imprisoned or hanged for their crime. Germany had no right to declare war on Poland. Everybody had a right and a duty to invade Germany once they did it. That we stayed out was due to our weakness and ineptitude. We ended up paying dearly for that and learned from the experience. Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-13   22:31:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: Vicomte13 (#47) France, Britain, Russia and America had the right, and the duty, to declare war on Germany when Germany invaded Poland. And the Belgians, Dutch and Danes should have been right there with them, permitting allied forces to sweep through. Has it occurred to you that the Russians (Soviet Union) would have been fighting themselves? The Germans and the Russians staged a joint campaign and divided up Poland between them. Now, why didn't the French declare war against the Soviet Union? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland The Invasion of Poland, also known as the September Campaign, or the 1939 Defensive War in Poland (Polish: Kampania wrzesniowa or Wojna obronna 1939 roku), and alternatively the Poland Campaign (German: Polenfeldzug) or Fall Weiss in Germany (Case White), was a joint invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany, the Free City of Danzig, the Soviet Union, and a small Slovak contingent, that marked the beginning of World War II in Europe. The German invasion began on 1 September 1939, one week after the signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, while the Soviet invasion commenced on 17 September following the Molotov-Togo agreement that terminated the Russian and Japanese hostilities in the east on 16 September. The campaign ended on 6 October with Germany and the Soviet Union dividing and annexing the whole of Poland under the terms of the German-Soviet Frontier Treaty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland The Soviet invasion of Poland The Soviet invasion of Poland was a Soviet military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939. On that morning, 16 days after Nazi Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east. The invasion and battle lasted for the following 20 days and ended on 6 October 1939 with the two-way division and annexation of the entire territory of the Second Polish Republic by both Germany and the Soviet Union. The joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland was secretly agreed in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed on 23 August 1939. [...] Soviet forces occupied eastern Poland until the summer of 1941, when they were driven out by the invading German army in the course of Operation Barbarossa. The area was under Nazi occupation until the Red Army reconquered it again in the summer of 1944. An agreement at the Yalta Conference permitted the Soviet Union to annex almost all of their Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact portion of the Second Polish Republic, "compensating" the People's Republic of Poland with the southern half of East Prussia and territories east of the Oder–Neisse line. The Soviet Union enclosed most of the annexed territories into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic. After the end of World War II in Europe, the USSR signed a brand new border agreement with the Polish communists on 16 August 1945. This agreement recognized the status quo as the new official border between the two countries with the exception of the region around Bialystok and a minor part of Galicia east of the San river around Przemysl, which were returned to Poland later on. Carter-Ford Oct. 6, 1976 Debate - "No Soviet Domination" Published on Sep 26, 2012 In this clip from the Oct. 6, 1976 debate between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford, Ford botches a rehearsed line from his briefing book and declares, "There is no no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." At the time, all countries in Eastern Europe had Communist governments and were under the Soviet sphere of influence. - - - - - - - - - - Nobody did that. The only people who stood up to fight were the French and the British. Spare me. The French retreated faster than the Germans could advance, and then surrendered. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943 saw the Jews in the ghetto stand up to the Germans about as long as the entire French army did. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germans-invade-poland Despite their declaration of war against Germany, Britain and France did little militarily to aid Poland. Britain bombed German warships on September 4, but Chamberlain resisted bombing Germany itself. Though Germans kept only 23 divisions in the west during their campaign in Poland, France did not launch a full-scale attack even though it had mobilized over four times that number. There were modest assaults by France on its border with Germany but these actions ceased with the defeat of Poland. During the subsequent seven months, some observers accused Britain and France of waging a “phony war,” because, with the exception of a few dramatic British-German clashes at sea, no major military action was taken. The British and French promised to come to the aid of Poland if it were attacked. They did not. And yet, you insist the U.S. had some duty to go fight a war to extract France from a war it declared but did not fight. France not only declared war, it attacked the Germans and engaged in acts of war. The German response against France was entirely lawful. The United States was not required to rush to the aid of the misbehaving European children playing Game of Thrones. France surrendered with military efficiency. If the French did not intend to fight a war, they should not have declared one. The Americans pretended that it wasn't our fight. Of course it was our fight, we were just too myopic to see it then. It ws not our fight until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The USA was attacked and Japan declared war on the USA, December 7, 1941 (December 8th Japanese time). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire IMPERIAL RESCRIPT By the grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan Emperor Showa, seated on the throne occupied by the same dynasty from time immemorial, enjoin upon ye, Our loyal and brave subjects: We hereby declare War on the United States of America and the British Empire. The men and officers of Our Army and Navy shall do their utmost in prosecuting the war. Our public servants of various departments shall perform faithfully and diligently their respective duties; the entire nation with a united will shall mobilize their total strength so that nothing will miscarry in the attainment of Our war aims. To ensure the stability of East Asia and to contribute to world peace is the far-sighted policy which was formulated by Our Great Illustrious Imperial Grandsire [Emperor Meiji] and Our Great Imperial Sire succeeding Him [Emperor Taisho], and which We lay constantly to heart. To cultivate friendship among nations and to enjoy prosperity in common with all nations, has always been the guiding principle of Our Empire's foreign policy. It has been truly unavoidable and far from Our wishes that Our Empire has been brought to cross swords with America and Britain. More than four years have passed since China, failing to comprehend the true intentions of Our Empire, and recklessly courting trouble, disturbed the peace of East Asia and compelled Our Empire to take up arms. Although there has been reestablished the National Government of China, with which Japan had effected neighborly intercourse and cooperation, the regime which has survived in Chungking, relying upon American and British protection, still continues its fratricidal opposition. Eager for the realization of their inordinate ambition to dominate the Orient, both America and Britain, giving support to the Chungking regime, have aggravated the disturbances in East Asia. Moreover these two Powers, inducing other countries to follow suit, increased military preparations on all sides of Our Empire to challenge Us. They have obstructed by every means Our peaceful commerce and finally resorted to a direct severance of economic relations, menacing gravely the existence of Our Empire. Patiently have We waited and long have We endured, in the hope that Our government might retrieve the situation in peace. But Our adversaries, showing not the least spirit of conciliation, have unduly delayed a settlement; and in the meantime they have intensified the economic and political pressure to compel thereby Our Empire to submission. This trend of affairs, would, if left unchecked, not only nullify Our Empire's efforts of many years for the sake of the stabilization of East Asia, but also endanger the very existence of Our nation. The situation being such as it is, Our Empire, for its existence and self-defense has no other recourse but to appeal to arms and to crush every obstacle in its path. The hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors guarding Us from above, We rely upon the loyalty and courage of Our subjects in Our confident expectation that the task bequeathed by Our forefathers will be carried forward and that the sources of evil will be speedily eradicated and an enduring peace immutably established in East Asia, preserving thereby the glory of Our Empire. In witness whereof, we have hereunto set our hand and caused the Grand Seal of the Empire to be affixed at the Imperial Palace, Tokyo, this seventh day of the 12th month of the 15th year of Showa, corresponding to the 2,602nd year from the accession to the throne of Emperor Jimmu. (Released by the Board of Information, December 8, 1941. Japan Times & Advertiser) The USA responded accordingly and declared war on Japan. Joint Resolution Declaring that a state of war exists between the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of the United States and making provisions to prosecute the same. Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of American in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States. - Approved, December 8, 1941, 4:10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time The US was attacked by Japan, not Germany. The US declared the war on December 8, 1941 against Japan (not Germany) as a direct result of the Japanese attack. Following the Japanese attack, Germany declared war against the U.S. on December 11, 1941. On December 11, 1941, American Chargé d'Affaires Leland B. Morris, the highest ranking American diplomat in Germany, was summoned to Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop's office where Ribbentrop read Morris the formal declaration.[16] The text was: MR. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES: The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression. On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German submarines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines. Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships. The German Government therefore establishes the following facts: Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war. The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America. Accept, Mr. Charge d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration. December 11, 1941. RIBBENTROP. In response to the German declaration of war of December 11, 1941, the U.S. declared war on Germany on that same date. Seventy-Seventh Congress of the United States of America; At the First Session Begun and held at the City of Washington, on Friday, the third day of January, 1941. JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring That a State of War Exists Between The Government of Germany and the Government and the People of the United States and Making Provisions To Prosecute The Same Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States. (Signed) Sam Rayburn, Speaker of the House of Representatives (Signed) H. A. Wallace, Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate Approved December 11, 1941 3:05 PM E.S.T. (Signed) Franklin D. Roosevelt If the war was fought to free Poland, it was a poor job. Thirty years later, the Soviet Union still dominated Poland. Gerald Ford's flub went a long way to ending his election aspirations. Hitler did not start an invasion of Poland because he was evil and woke one morning with an evil hangover. http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII3_HitlerInvadesPoland.htm Eight Reasons Hitler Invaded Poland 1. To give Germans lebensraum in Eastern Europe He had promised this in Mein Kampf (1924) and it was one of the three CENTRAL AIMS of Hitler foreign policy. 2. Because he thought Chamberlain would not dare stop him Chamberlain had stood up to Hitler, remember, at Bad Godesberg during the Sudeten crisis, but had then backed down at Munich. Hitler despised Chamberlain, and did not believe that he would dare to go to war. So he felt able to pursue his aims in Poland despite Chamberlain's promise in March 1939 to support Poland. 3. To defend the Germans in Poland The reason Hitler gave was that the Poles were persecuting those Germans who lived in Poland. (There was some truth in this.) 4. To overturn the Treaty of Versailles This was a second CENTRAL AIM of Hitler's foreign policy. The Polish Corridor and Posen had been given to Poland in 1919, and Danzig had been declared a free city administered by the League of Nations. Hitler first asked Poland to consider the position of Danzig in October 1938, immediately after Munich, and in March 1939, Hitler demanded that he be given Danzig (this was the pattern he had followed with Austria and the Sudetenland). Did you know that in March 1939 also, Germany seized the Lithuanian port of Memel (at the northern end of East Prussia)? When Hitler demanded Danzig in March 1939, Brauchitsch, the Commander in Chief of the German Army noted that he intended ultimately to 'knock Poland down completely', and that eventually Hitler wanted Germany's pre-WWI boundary restoring. 5. To oppose Communism/conquer Russia I know Poland wasn't communist, but Russia was where Hitler was eventually headed (Mein Kampf, 1924) and Poland was just another step east. When he demanded Danzig in 1939, Hitler's proposal included a joint anti-Soviet alliance against Russia. This was the third CENTRAL AIM of Hitler foreign policy. 6. To teach Chamberlain a lesson Chamberlain's guarantee of Poland on 31 March 1939 infuriated Hitler - 'I'll cook them a stew they'll choke on' - was his reaction. From then on he was determined to destroy Poland. So you could say he wanted to attack Poland to teach Chamberlain a lesson. 7. To prevent an anti-German alliance Having thought about it, he realised also that the world was beginning to gang up on him, so the next day, 1 April, his CONSIDERED reaction was this: 'if they expect Germany to sit patiently by while they create satellite States and set them against Germany, then they are mistaken'. This is fair enough, actually, because that is exactly what Chamberlain was trying to do. And Poland was preparing to resist Hitler, and had started mobilising its army - Hitler stated that this broke Poland's non-aggression pact with Germany [see note below]. On April 3 Hitler issued a directive to his armies - entitled 'Case White' - stating that he wished to 'destroy Polish military strength and create in the East a situation which satisfies the requirements of national defence'. In this document, he set the date for 'Case White' - 'any time from 1 September 1939 onward.' - and told the Werhmacht to draw up a timetable. 8. The Nazi-Soviet Pact After April 1939, both Roosevelt and Stalin began to express concerns about Hitler's aims on Poland. Hitler merely mocked Roosevelt, but he was worried about Stalin. Only Stalin - and the Russian army - could have stopped Hitler taking over Poland at this point. But the failure of the Anglo-Soviet negotiations and the Nazi-Soviet Pact of 23 August 1939 not only freed up Hitler to attack Poland, it included a secret agreement to divide Poland up between them. In the end, Hitler invaded Poland because he had agreed to do so with Stalin. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-14   1:47:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: nolu chan (#50) You have forgotten that Russia offered the West, via France, a security guarantee of Poland against the Germans. The Russians were prepared to send their army into Poland right up to the German borders in order to prevent a German invasion. Of course that would have meant that the Polish government would have had to deal with a Russian army on their soil who were not (initially) invaders, but who could have become a problem soon enough. It almost certainly would have prevented the German invasion and stopped the war from starting. The French were for it, but the British were opposed to even considering it, so the Russians were rejected. They then turned to Ribbentrop and made the Nazi-Soviet Pact, to buy themselves time. It's very odd to see you standing up for Nazi Germany. Are you a Nazi sympathizer or perhaps believe in Aryan supremacy? I just see these crazy essays in defense of the indefensible and I wonder. Do you have Tourettes? Vicomte13  posted on  2017-02-14   7:59:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: Vicomte13 (#52) You have forgotten that Russia offered the West, via France, a security guarantee of Poland against the Germans. The Russians were prepared to send their army into Poland right up to the German borders in order to prevent a German invasion. Of course that would have meant that the Polish government would have had to deal with a Russian army on their soil who were not (initially) invaders, but who could have become a problem soon enough. As an act of charity, Russia offered to occupy Poland. And to think that when the Russians did invade come to rescue Poland, the ingrates shot at them. But then they let the Russians stay for about fifty years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland The Invasion of Poland, also known as the September Campaign, or the 1939 Defensive War in Poland (Polish: Kampania wrzesniowa or Wojna obronna 1939 roku), and alternatively the Poland Campaign (German: Polenfeldzug) or Fall Weiss in Germany (Case White), was a joint invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany, the Free City of Danzig, the Soviet Union, and a small Slovak contingent, that marked the beginning of World War II in Europe. The German invasion began on 1 September 1939, one week after the signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, while the Soviet invasion commenced on 17 September following the Molotov-Togo agreement that terminated the Russian and Japanese hostilities in the east on 16 September. The campaign ended on 6 October with Germany and the Soviet Union dividing and annexing the whole of Poland under the terms of the German-Soviet Frontier Treaty. [...] The Soviet invasion of Poland The Soviet invasion of Poland was a Soviet military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939. On that morning, 16 days after Nazi Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east. The invasion and battle lasted for the following 20 days and ended on 6 October 1939 with the two-way division and annexation of the entire territory of the Second Polish Republic by both Germany and the Soviet Union. The joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland was secretly agreed in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed on 23 August 1939. [...] Soviet forces occupied eastern Poland until the summer of 1941, when they were driven out by the invading German army in the course of Operation Barbarossa. The area was under Nazi occupation until the Red Army reconquered it again in the summer of 1944. An agreement at the Yalta Conference permitted the Soviet Union to annex almost all of their Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact portion of the Second Polish Republic, "compensating" the People's Republic of Poland with the southern half of East Prussia and territories east of the Oder–Neisse line. The Soviet Union enclosed most of the annexed territories into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic. After the end of World War II in Europe, the USSR signed a brand new border agreement with the Polish communists on 16 August 1945. This agreement recognized the status quo as the new official border between the two countries with the exception of the region around Bialystok and a minor part of Galicia east of the San river around Przemysl, which were returned to Poland later on. Of course that would have meant that the Polish government would have had to deal with a Russian army on their soil who were not (initially) invaders, but who could have become a problem soon enough. The reality reflected by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty is given below. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-august-1939 On August 23, 1939, Hitler and Stalin signed a non-agression pact, called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Secret protocols of the treaty defined the territorial spheres of influence Germany and Russia would have after a successful invasion of Poland. According to the agreement, Russia would have control over Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, while Germany would gain control over Lithuania and Danzig. Poland would be partitioned into three major areas. The Warthland area, bordering Germany would be annexed outright to the German Reich, and all non-German inhabitants expelled to the east. More than 77,000 square miles of eastern Polish lands, with a population of over thirteen million would become Russian territory. The central area would become a German protectorate, named the General Gouvernement, governed by a German civil authority. Text of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact The Government of the German Reich and The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April, 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following Agreement: Article I. Both High Contracting Parties obligate themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other Powers. Article II. Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third Power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third Power. Article III. The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests. Article IV. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of Powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party. Article V. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions. Article VI. The present Treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the proviso that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not advance it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this Treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years. Article VII. The present treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The Agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed. [The section below was not published at the time the above was announced.] Secret Additional Protocol. Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party. Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San. The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments. In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement. Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas. Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret. Moscow, August 23, 1939. For the Government of the German Reich v. Ribbentrop Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov Sources: Rescuers from the Holocaust; Internet Modern History Sourcebook - - - - - - - - - - Do you have Tourettes? Do you have Alzheimers? Vicomte13 #47: "France, Britain, Russia and America had the right, and the duty, to declare war on Germany when Germany invaded Poland." Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-14   19:58:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 54.         There are no replies to Comment # 54. End Trace Mode for Comment # 54. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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