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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: Mythical inalienable rights.? Source: Crazy Guy URL Source: [None] Published: Feb 6, 2017 Author: nolu chan Post Date: 2017-02-06 03:25:38 by tpaine Keywords: None Views: 19908 Comments: 56 Nolu Chan has just posted another rather remarkable claim. (It is an) --- insufferable claim that RKBA is an inalienable right given by God Almighty hisself. The Constitution recognizes capital punishment which takes away all rights, including the mythical inalienable rights. nolu chan posted on 2017-02-06 Poster Comment: Any comments? Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 23. #8. To: tpaine (#0) The invocation of Natural Law is a crock of shit. NATURAL LAW nonsense Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. Natural law. This expression, "natural law,” or jus naturale, was largely used in the philosophical specula­tions of the Roman jurists of the Antonine age, and was intended to denote a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or of the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by the rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word his whole mental, moral, and physical constitution. The point of departure for this conception was the Stoic doctrine of a life ordered "according to nature,” which in its turn rested upon the purely supposititious existence, in primitive times, of a "state of nature;” that is, a condition of society in which men universally were governed solely by a rational and consistent obedience to the needs, impulses, and prompt­ings of their true nature, such nature being as yet undefaced by dishonesty, falsehood, or indulgence of the baser passions. In ethics, it consists in practical univer­sal judgments which man himself elicits. These express necessary and obligatory rules of human conduct which have been established by the author of human nature as essential to the divine purposes in the universe and have been promulgated by God solely through human reason. Constitutional Law, 6th Ed., Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black Letter Series, West Group, 2003, p. 165. A. THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION 1. NATURAL RIGHTS Despite some contrary judicial opinion in the early years of the Republic, the claim that there are extra-constitutional "natural rights" limiting governmental power has generally not been accepted by the courts. If the federal government exercises one of its delegated powers or the states exercise their reserved powers, some express or implied constitutional, statutory, or common law limitation must be found if the government action is to be successfully challenged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_justice Wikipedia Natural justice In English law, natural justice is technical terminology for the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua) and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem). While the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, it has largely been replaced and extended by the general "duty to act fairly". The basis for the rule against bias is the need to maintain public confidence in the legal system. Bias can take the form of actual bias, imputed bias or apparent bias. Actual bias is very difficult to prove in practice while imputed bias, once shown, will result in a decision being void without the need for any investigation into the likelihood or suspicion of bias. Cases from different jurisdictions currently apply two tests for apparent bias: the "reasonable suspicion of bias" test and the "real likelihood of bias" test. One view that has been taken is that the differences between these two tests are largely semantic and that they operate similarly. The right to a fair hearing requires that individuals should not be penalized by decisions affecting their rights or legitimate expectations unless they have been given prior notice of the case, a fair opportunity to answer it, and the opportunity to present their own case. The mere fact that a decision affects rights or interests is sufficient to subject the decision to the procedures required by natural justice. In Europe, the right to a fair hearing is guaranteed by Article 6(1) of the European Convention on Human Rights, which is said to complement the common law rather than replace it. Background Natural justice is a term of art that denotes specific procedural rights in the English legal system and the systems of other nations based on it. It is similar to the American concepts of fair procedure and procedural due process, the latter having roots that to some degree parallel the origins of natural justice. Although natural justice has an impressive ancestry and is said to express the close relationship between the common law and moral principles, the use of the term today is not to be confused with the "natural law" of the Canonists, the mediaeval philosophers' visions of an "ideal pattern of society" or the "natural rights" philosophy of the 18th century. Whilst the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, in jurisdictions such as Australia and the United Kingdom it has largely been replaced and extended by the more general "duty to act fairly". Natural justice is identified with the two constituents of a fair hearing, which are the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua, or "no man a judge in his own cause"), and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem, or "hear the other side"). The requirements of natural justice or a duty to act fairly depend on the context. In Baker v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) (1999), the Supreme Court of Canada set out a list of non-exhaustive factors that would influence the content of the duty of fairness, including the nature of the decision being made and the process followed in making it, the statutory scheme under which the decision-maker operates, the importance of the decision to the person challenging it, the person's legitimate expectations, and the choice of procedure made by the decision-maker. Earlier, in Knight v. Indian Head School Division No. 19 (1990), the Supreme Court held that public authorities which make decisions of a legislative and general nature do not have a duty to act fairly, while those that carry out acts of a more administrative and specific nature do. Furthermore, preliminary decisions will generally not trigger the duty to act fairly, but decisions of a more final nature may have such an effect. In addition, whether a duty to act fairly applies depends on the relationship between the public authority and the individual. No duty exists where the relationship is one of master and servant, or where the individual holds office at the pleasure of the authority. On the other hand, a duty to act fairly exists where the individual cannot be removed from office except for cause. Finally, a right to procedural fairness only exists when an authority's decision is significant and has an important impact on the individual. Justice Iredell, Calder v. Bull,, U.S.S.C, 3 Dall. 385, 398-99 (1798) If, then, a government, composed of legislative, executive and judicial departments, were established, by a constitution which imposed no limits on the legislative power, the consequence would inevitably be, that whatever the legislative power chose to enact, would be lawfully enacted, and the judicial power could never interpose to pronounce it void. It is true, that some speculative jurists have held, that a legislative act against natural justice must, in itself, be void; but I cannot think that, under such a government any court of justice would possess a power to declare it so. Sir William Blackstone, having put the strong case of an act of parliament, which - - - - - - - - - [399] authorize a man to try his own cause, explicitly adds, that even in that case, “there is no court that has power to defeat the intent of the legislature, when couched in such evident and express words, as leave no doubt whether it was the intent of the legislature, or no.” 1 Bl. Com. 91. In order, therefore, to guard against so great an evil, it has been the policy of all the American states, which have, individually, framed their state constitutions, since the revolution, and of the people of the United States, when they framed the federal constitution, to define with precision the objects of the legislative power, and to restrain its exercise within marked and settled boundaries. If any act of congress, or of the legislature of a state, violates those constitutional provisions, it is unquestionably void; though, I admit, that as the authority to declare it void is of a delicate and awful nature, the court will never resort to that authority, but in a clear and urgent case. If, on the other hand, the legislature of the Union, or the legislature of any member of the Union, shall pass a law, within the general scope of their constitutional power, the court cannot pronounce it to be void, merely because it is, in their judgment, contrary to the principles of natural justice. The ideas of natural justice are regulated by no fixed standard: the ablest and the purest men have differed upon the subject; and all that the court could properly say, in such an event, would be, that the legislature (possessed of an equal right of opinion) had passed an act which, in the opinion of the judges, was inconsistent with the abstract principles of natural justice. There are then but two lights, in which the subject can be viewed: 1st. If the legislature pursue the authority delegated to them, their acts are valid. 2d. If they transgress the boundaries of that authority, their acts are invalid. In the former case, they exercise the discretion vested in them by the people, to whom alone they are responsible for the faithful discharge of their trust: but in the latter case, they violate a fundamental law, which must be our guide, whenever we are called upon, as judges, to determine the validity of a legislative act. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   16:42:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: nolu chan, yall (#8) Why would anyone want to give respect to a clown who works against the constitutional principles we've all pledged to honor and defend? - An idiot that claims our inalienable rights are mythical? The invocation of Natural Law is a crock of shit. And then you go on to post a crock of bullshit 'opinion', supposedly proving your point. Poor little nolu, reduced once again to oddball cut and paste views, whereas our constitutions 14th is definitive. We have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law. tpaine  posted on  2017-02-08   18:27:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: tpaine (#13) Poor little nolu, reduced once again to oddball cut and paste views, whereas our constitutions 14th is definitive. Poor tpaine -- Only two functioning brain cells, one to inhale and the other to exhale. Your perpetual invocation of Natural Law is a load of shit. We have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law. The Declaration of Independence was never the adopted law of anyplace and any time. The adopted law was and is the Constitution, not your bullshit. Constitutional Law, 6th Ed., Jerome A. Barron and C. Thomas Dienes, Black Letter Series, West Group, 2003, p. 165. A. THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION 1. NATURAL RIGHTS Despite some contrary judicial opinion in the early years of the Republic, the claim that there are extra-constitutional "natural rights" limiting governmental power has generally not been accepted by the courts. If the federal government exercises one of its delegated powers or the states exercise their reserved powers, some express or implied constitutional, statutory, or common law limitation must be found if the government action is to be successfully challenged. - - - - - - - - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_justice Wikipedia Natural justice In English law, natural justice is technical terminology for the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua) and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem). While the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, it has largely been replaced and extended by the general "duty to act fairly". The basis for the rule against bias is the need to maintain public confidence in the legal system. Bias can take the form of actual bias, imputed bias or apparent bias. Actual bias is very difficult to prove in practice while imputed bias, once shown, will result in a decision being void without the need for any investigation into the likelihood or suspicion of bias. Cases from different jurisdictions currently apply two tests for apparent bias: the "reasonable suspicion of bias" test and the "real likelihood of bias" test. One view that has been taken is that the differences between these two tests are largely semantic and that they operate similarly. The right to a fair hearing requires that individuals should not be penalized by decisions affecting their rights or legitimate expectations unless they have been given prior notice of the case, a fair opportunity to answer it, and the opportunity to present their own case. The mere fact that a decision affects rights or interests is sufficient to subject the decision to the procedures required by natural justice. In Europe, the right to a fair hearing is guaranteed by Article 6(1) of the European Convention on Human Rights, which is said to complement the common law rather than replace it. Background Natural justice is a term of art that denotes specific procedural rights in the English legal system and the systems of other nations based on it. It is similar to the American concepts of fair procedure and procedural due process, the latter having roots that to some degree parallel the origins of natural justice. Although natural justice has an impressive ancestry and is said to express the close relationship between the common law and moral principles, the use of the term today is not to be confused with the "natural law" of the Canonists, the mediaeval philosophers' visions of an "ideal pattern of society" or the "natural rights" philosophy of the 18th century. Whilst the term natural justice is often retained as a general concept, in jurisdictions such as Australia and the United Kingdom it has largely been replaced and extended by the more general "duty to act fairly". Natural justice is identified with the two constituents of a fair hearing, which are the rule against bias (nemo iudex in causa sua, or "no man a judge in his own cause"), and the right to a fair hearing (audi alteram partem, or "hear the other side"). If you want to invoke that shit, you need to move to another country. nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   18:43:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: nolu chan, yall (#16) Poor little nolu, reduced once again to oddball cut and paste views, whereas our constitutions 14th is definitive. We have (inalienable) rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law. Your perpetual invocation of Natural Law is a load of shit. ---- The Declaration of Independence was never the adopted law of anyplace and any time. The adopted law was and is the Constitution, not your bullshit. I quoted the 14th amendment to the constitution - just above, you idiot. Typically, poor little noo!u is so impatient to cut and paste, that he loses track of his own argument... What an oaf. tpaine  posted on  2017-02-08   19:45:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: tpaine (#21) We have (inalienable) rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law. Another pantsload, easily revealed to be a load of shit. As for your citation of the Constitution in support of your claim of an inalienable right to your property, "unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law," you should try reading the Constitution more, and bullshitting about it less. Amendment V No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Hypothetically you own property which is situated in the way of where the government decides it is gooing to build an interstate highway, or some building or military base. Using eminent domain, the government takes your property, whether you like ir or not, and provides just compensation as determined by the government. And thus your absurdly claimed inalienable right to your property is shown to be nonexistent, and your property is taken without so much as an allegation of any criminal act on your part. It is also clear that you may lose your liberty without committing a crime. One way is to get drafted into the military. Another is to be detained on reasonable suspicion. Or you can be held in jail while awaiting trial. There are plentiful examples; e.g. martial law, medical quarantine, etc. Your right to liberty is not inalienable; you are entitled to due process of law. A finding of criminality is a requirement only in your imagination. I quoted the 14th amendment to the constitution - just above, you idiot. The 14th Amendment contains no clause which incorporates your grotesque and laughable concept of natural law into the law of the land. Amendment XIV Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. The 14th Amendment neither creates, nor recognizes, any of your fictional natural law inalienable rights. It extended the due process requirement to apply to the States, in addition to the Federal government. States can take your shit via eminent domain and provide just compensation; States can put you in a medical quarantine; hold you in confinement awaiting trial, just as the Federal government can. Your diaper is drooping with 20 lbs of crap. Someone told you to it was full and to change, but you insist that the package said it was for 24 lbs and you still have a few pounds to go. And your claim that you "quoted the 14th amendment to the constitution - just above, you idiot," — even that is bullshit. #13. To: nolu chan, yall (#8) Why would anyone want to give respect to a clown who works against the constitutional principles we've all pledged to honor and defend? - An idiot that claims our inalienable rights are mythical? The invocation of Natural Law is a crock of shit. And then you go on to post a crock of bullshit 'opinion', supposedly proving your point. Poor little nolu, reduced once again to oddball cut and paste views, whereas our constitutions 14th is definitive. We have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts under our rule of constitutional law. tpaine  posted on  2017-02-08   18:27:45 ET You did not quote anything but your own tired bullshit which does not appear in the 14th Amendment (or 5th Amendment). nolu chan  posted on  2017-02-08   21:31:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 23. #24. To: nolu chan (#23) Our Declaration outlined some of the principles behind the founding of our Republic. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —" This same phrase was used in the 14th, to reiterate the great truth that had been lost in the arguments leadig to the war between the States. Amendment XIV ---- All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Thus, our constitutions 14th amendment is definitive. We have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property, unless we forfit them by criminal acts -- under our rule of constitutional law. Why nolu chan insists that these basic rights are 'mythical' is best left to a mental health professional.. tpaine  posted on  2017-02-09 04:44:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   End Trace Mode for Comment # 23. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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