U.S. Constitution
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Title: GOP rep: 'No president is allowed to burn the First Amendment’
Source:
The Hill
URL Source: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3 ... ed-to-burn-the-first-amendment
Published: Nov 30, 2016
Author: Mark Hensch
Post Date: 2016-11-30 19:10:50 by Hondo68
Keywords: Impeach Trump, scofflaw, hates BOR
Views: 110882
Comments: 265
Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) on Tuesday defended the constitutionality of flag burning, saying President-elect Donald Trump would violate freedom of speech if he cracked down on it. "Nobody should burn the American flag, but our Constitution secures our right to do so. No president is allowed to burn the First Amendment," Amash tweeted. Nobody should burn the American flag, but our Constitution secures our right to do so. No president is allowed to burn the First Amendment. https://t.co/nVkq6WcbHV— Justin Amash (@justinamash) November 29, 2016 Trump earlier Tuesday floated severe penalties for flag burning, mentioning loss of citizenship or a year in jail. “Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag – if they do, there must be consequences – perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!” he tweeted. Trump did not specify what inspired his 7 a.m. tweet about flag burning, which is considered protected speech under U.S. law. The Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. Johnson in 1989 that burning the American flag is allowed under the First Amendment. A spokesman for Trump on Tuesday said he agrees with Trump that the controversial act should be outlawed. “I think most Americans would agree with me that flag burning should be illegal. It’s completely despicable,” Jason Miller told CNN’s “New Day." Rep. Sean Duffy (R-Wis.) told CNN he disagrees with Trump, though. “I don’t think we want to make this a legal issue. So I disagree with Mr. Trump on that, and the court is probably right," Duffy said. “I think the court is probably right that we want to protect those people who want to protest and their right to actually demonstrate with disgracing our flag, even though so many of us who love our country and love our flag object to it.” House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) also split with Trump and defended flag burning as free speech. “We have a First Amendment right. We’ll protect our First Amendment. That’s what the court has upheld,” he said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Tuesday. Poster Comment:
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) also split with Trump and defended flag burning as free speech
Already there are the beginnings of an impeach Trump movement in the HOR, and he hasn't even taken office yet. (1 image)
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#20. To: Deckard (#13)
Because the vast majority are leftists that rely on the police state to protect them. There are no prominent powerful conservatives left in America politics. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Given the sentiments expressed by the court that you highlighted, how is it that prohibiting hate speech is constitutional?
Original Intent was FREE SPEECH in ALL it's many forms,and NO speech was to be freer than "Political Speech". Be careful what you ask for,lest you get it. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
“[N]othing in the text of the Constitution, or in the eighteenth-century understanding of freedom of speech, supports the proposition that prohibiting the burning of the flag infringes free speech...” - Judge Richard Posner
Yeah,but what would Judge Judy say? BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Interesting that you would quote someone like Posner as a source for your dementia. Judge Richard Posner: ‘No value’ in studying the U.S. Constitution “I see absolutely no value to a judge of spending decades, years, months, weeks, day, hours, minutes, or seconds studying the Constitution, the history of its enactment, its amendments, and its implementation (across the centuries — well, just a little more than two centuries, and of course less for many of the amendments),” he wrote. “Eighteenth-century guys, however smart, could not foresee the culture, technology, etc., of the 21st century.” Posner has written several opinions sympathetic to abortion rights, including a decision that held that late term abortion was constitutionally protected in some circumstances.[20] In November 2015 Posner authored a decision in Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, inc., et al. v. Brad D. Schimel striking down regulations on abortion clinics in Wisconsin. He rejected the state's argument that the laws were written to protect the health of women and not to make abortion more difficult to obtain. Accusing the state of indirectly trying to ban abortions in the state Posner wrote, "They [Wisconsin] may do this in the name of protecting the health of women who have abortions, yet as in this case the specific measures they support may do little or nothing for health, but rather strew impediments to abortion. Posner opposes the US "War on Drugs" and called it "quixotic". In a 2003 CNBC interview he discussed the difficulty of enforcing criminal marijuana laws, and asserted that it is hard to justify the criminalization of marijuana when compared to other substances. In a talk at Elmhurst College in 2012, Posner said that "I don't think that we should have a fraction of the drug laws that we have. I think it's really absurd to be criminalizing possession or use or distribution of marijuana. At the Cybercrime 2020: The Future of Online Crime and Investigations conference held at Georgetown University Law Center on November 20, 2014, Posner, in addition to further reinforcing his views on privacy being over-rated, stated that "If the NSA wants to vacuum all the trillions of bits of information that are crawling through the electronic worldwide networks, I think that's fine. ... Much of what passes for the name of privacy is really just trying to conceal the disreputable parts of your conduct," Posner added. "Privacy is mainly about trying to improve your social and business opportunities by concealing the sorts of bad activities that would cause other people not to want to deal with you." Posner also criticized mobile OS companies for enabling end-to-end encryption in their newest software. "I'm shocked at the thought that a company would be permitted to manufacture an electronic product that the government would not be able to search" he said In September 2014, Posner authored the opinions in the consolidated cases of Wolf v. Walker and Baskin v. Bogan challenging Wisconsin and Indiana's state level same-sex marriage bans. The opinion of the three-judge panel on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Indiana and Wisconsin's bans on same-sex marriage were unconstitutional, affirming a lower court ruling.[4] During oral arguments, Wisconsin's Attorney General cited tradition as a reason for maintaining the ban, prompting Posner to note that: "It was tradition to not allow blacks and whites to marry – a tradition that got swept away." Posner claimed that the same-sex marriage bans were both "a tradition of hate" and "savage discrimination".[36] Posner wrote the opinion for the unanimous panel, suggesting the laws unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause. The Supreme Court then denied writ of certiorari and left Posner's ruling to stand. Today, although generally viewed as to the right in academia, Posner's pragmatism, his qualified moral relativism and moral skepticism,[16] and his affection for the thought of Friedrich Nietzsche set him apart from most American conservatives. As a judge, with the exception of his rulings with respect to the sentencing guidelines and the recording of police actions, Posner's judicial votes have always placed him on the moderate-to-liberal wing of the Republican Party, where he has become more isolated over time. In July 2012, Posner stated, "I've become less conservative since the Republican Party started becoming goofy. Obama’s Favorite Law Professor (The apple doesn't fall far from the tree) Eric Posner hates freedom of speech. The University of Chicago law prof made this clear in an article for Slate in 2012 titled “The World Doesn’t Love the First Amendment.” “Americans,” Posner wrote, “need to learn that the rest of the world — and not just Muslims — see no sense in the First Amendment,” and realize that “they might have a point.” Posner, son of Judge Richard Posner and a former classmate of President Barack Obama at Harvard Law School, likened the First Amendment to a “dear old uncle who enacted heroic deeds in his youth but on occasion says embarrassing things about taboo subjects in his decline.” Now Posner has weighed in on freedom of the press. Turns out he’s against that, too. In the case in question, New York Times reporter James Risen is being ordered by the federal government to name his source for a story about an attempt by the CIA to scuttle Iran’s nuclear weapons program. This is part of the Obama administration’s alleged “war on whistleblowers.” Risen is being ordered to testify in the government’s case against former CIA hand James Sterling. Posner, who must be one of Obama’s favorite law professors after he sided with the censors on Benghazi and argued the president could unilaterally lift the debt limit with few consequences, is very much rooting against the journalists. The prof argues the press has “not earned our trust.” Why, “if the Supreme Court were to create a reporter’s privilege, it would encourage leaks that ought to be plugged.” Official White House mouthpiece Jay Carney couldn’t have said it better. Walter B. Jones is still in the HOR, and retains his seat on the Armed Services Committee, in spite of Boehner removing him from others. At 73 years old, he still refuses to tow the party line. He's also a member of the Liberty Caucus. Some people never learn. ;) You're liberal, Trump is conservative for the most part.
Flag burning isn't particularly high tech. Even you could figure out how to do it.
Seriously? That's the best your feeble mind can come up with? I see you are afraid to own up to your apparent worship of a leftist like Posner. Sucks to be you. Historical facts are historical facts. I know that's way beyond your ken.
The historical facts show Posner to be a a pro-abortion, pro-homo marriage loon, yet you parrot his statements as if they were Gospel. To be fair, he did get it right on the marijuana question. And once again your flee the historical facts regarding the actual meaning and original intent of the First Amendment, gibbering angrily. Work up whatever minuscule reserve of nerve you might have, and at least try.
Posner: "Privacy is mainly about trying to improve your social and business opportunities by concealing the sorts of bad activities that would cause other people not to want to deal with you." Hmmm...where have we heard that type of statement before? Oh, I know.. The issue has been settled, didn't you get the memo? By all means, keep up the delusional belief that burning a flag is not protected by the First Amendment. Quote the "memo." You've fled in terror each time you've been challenged so far.
Godwin's law. "The statute of Nebraska preventing and punishing the desecration of the flag of the United States and prohibiting the sale of articles upon which there is a representation of the flag for advertising purposes is not unconstitutional..." - Halter v. Nebraska, 205 U.S. 34 (1907)
our ken And Donnie... How long have you had the Ken doll? Is it part of a collection?
Political speech is protected. Hate speech is not necessarily political speech and can be made for the purpose of creating a disturbance. If Donald Trump went somewhere and gave a political speech, and a bunch of rabble took umbrage and decided to riot, that does not make the speech of Donald Trump a crime. The rioters commit a criminal act.
Halter was brought under the 14th Amendment regarding use of the flag in advertising, and not as a case of individual free speech. The court ruled, "we cannot hold that any privilege of American citizenship or that any right of personal liberty is violated by a state enactment forbidding the flag to be used as an advertisement on a bottle of beer." https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/205/34/case.html U.S. Supreme Court Halter v. Nebraska, 205 U.S. 34 (1907) Halter v. Nebraska No. 174 Submitted January 23, 1907 Decided March 4, 1907 [excerpts] The plaintiffs in error were proceeded against by criminal information upon the charge of having, in violation of the statute, unlawfully exposed to public view, sold, exposed for sale, and had in their possession for sale a bottle of beer upon which, for purposes of advertisement, was printed and painted a representation of the flag of the United States. Page 205 U. S. 39 The defendants pleaded not guilty, and at the trial insisted that the statute in question was null and void as infringing their personal liberty guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States and depriving them, as citizens of the United States, of the right of exercising a privilege impliedly, if not expressly, guaranteed by the federal Constitution; also that the statute was invalid in that it permitted the use of the flag by publishers, newspapers, books, periodicals, etc., under certain circumstances, thus, it was alleged, discriminating in favor of one class and against others. These contentions were overruled, and the defendants, having been found guilty by a jury, were severally adjudged to pay a fine of $50 and the costs of the prosecution. Upon writ of error, the judgments were affirmed by the Supreme Court of Nebraska, and the case has been brought here upon the ground that the final order in that court deprived the defendants, respectively, or rights specially set up and claimed under the Constitution of the United States. It may be well at the outset to say that Congress has established no regulation as to the use of the flag, except that in the act approved February 20th, 1905, authorizing the registration of trademarks in commerce with foreign nations and among the states, it was provided that no mark shall be refused as a trademark on account of its nature "unless such mark . . . consists of or comprises the flag or coat of arms or other insignia of the United States, or any simulation thereof, or of any state or municipality, or of any foreign nation." 33 Stat. 724, § 5. - - - - - - - - - - Page 205 U. S. 43 in the tangible thing upon which a representation of the flag has been placed, the answer is that such representation -- which, in itself, cannot belong, as property, to an individual -- has been placed on such thing in violation of law, and subject to the power of government to prohibit its use for purposes of advertisement.
Some people never learn. ;) True,but it has mostly been the alleged Republican Party that has made a determined effort to keep him in the background. Have you ever seen him on one of the Sunday political talk shows? The area where the USMC base named Camp LeJune is located in is in Jones district,and he actually appeared before an assembly of Marines on the base and gave an anti-Iraq invasion speech before the invasion happened,and I read on the web the report from the local paper that said the Marines gave him a standing ovation for doing so. I stood up and gave him a standing ovation myself when reading about it. I have been hoping ever since that he would run for president. I am guessing that was the only newspaper that wrote about this. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Thanks! So were Thomas Jefferson,Ben Franklin,and George Washington. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Depends on the content and the intent of that speech. But burning the flag is done intentionally to provoke a reaction, to incite an immediate breach of the peace, or to incite imminent lawless action.
I think that even you will admit that is one VERY blurry line. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Burning a flag is done as a form of political expression and all you just said has been repeatedly rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court. Frequently, the very purpose of protected political expression is to provoke a reaction. If someone decides to indulge themselves in a breach of the peace or other lawless action, they are the one committing the criminal action. If a nitwit at a Trump rally was incited to some nitwittery, they did not arrest Donald Trump and remove him from the venue.
It certainly can be. But if someone is arrested for burning a flag, it is almost guaranteed that his attorney will argue that it was political expression. It would be a real challenge to show that there was no political intent. A law prohibiting flag burning per se, prohibits political expression. Hate speech has a nebulous character. Nowadays, it seems snowflakes call anything they do not like hate speech, and they run off to their safe space.
lol They were classical liberals. You're a leftist liberal 75 percent of the time.
Only from the POV of a dogmatic loon. As I keep saying over and over,and over,and over......,We are either ALL free,or NONE of us are free. It is such a simple concept I honestly can't understand how anyone could not understand it. A government that has the authority to monitor and punish MY thoughts,words,and political deeds,also has the authority to monitor and punish YOUR thoughts,words,and political deeds. And if they can,they will. It is the nature of ALL governments EVERYWHERE to seize all the power they can seize in order to stay in power. Free Speech is the most important tool we citizens have to use to prevent that from happening here. BOYCOTT PAYPAL AND CLOSE YOUR PP ACCOUNTS NOW! ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO,TOO! ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION! Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Apple and oranges. Burning the American flag is not the same as a political editorial or a political speech. So you can stop trying to convince me that there's no difference. What's it going to take -- someone getting injured or killed burning the flag?
No problem with that. I just disagree with you that Floyd Mayweather should be on the woman's olynmpic boxing team. That doesn't make him any less equal and free if he isn't allowed.
States ban cross burning and there's no constitutional crisis. Flag burning can be banned for the same reason -- the intent is to provoke a reaction, to incite an immediate breach of the peace, or to incite imminent lawless action.
I think flag burning is protected "speech'. Even though it isn't really speech. People should be free to protest if they want to. I think people who burn American flags are assholes. I wouldn't even really care if someone kicked their ass. No it shouldn't be legal to kick their ass. But I wouldn't care if someone did.
Then our laws against hate speech and sexual harassment should be repealed. Time for everyone to suck it up.
If you don't threaten to kill someone. You should be able to say what you want. So i'm ok with that. Remember Scalia voted to allow flag burning too. If they made it illegal to burn flags. That wouldn't bother me to much either. Just saying.
The president president can by executive decision, and he has the guns to back him up. There are people and philosophies in this world that deserve to be hated. Giving voice to that hatred is not to be prohibited. There are worse things than hate speach. One of them is to succumb to compliance and repression by not pointing it out.
That's treason and Trump should be impeached, tried, and beheaded by ISIS McCain, if he does it. It would require a Constitutional amendment to make America, like North Korea. What's it going to take -- someone getting injured or killed burning the flag? According to the court, it is protected just the same. If you are offended, and you injure or kill someone, you will be the one going to prison.
That is the law as you want it to be. The law that is, is the law as stated by the U.S. Supreme Court. The have been a few attempts to amend the Constitution to make desecrating the flag a crime. One attempt passed in the House but failed in the Senate. Another Scotus opinion can change it, an amendment can change it, a blog post cannot.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWonder why none of the candidates for POTUS ever even mentioned cutting back on the police/surveillance state.
#21. To: nolu chan (#6)
#22. To: Roscoe (#18)
Time to return to original intent.
#23. To: sneakypete (#22)
Original Intent was FREE SPEECH in ALL it's many forms
#24. To: Roscoe (#23)
“[N]othing in the text of the Constitution, or in the eighteenth-century understanding of freedom of speech, supports the proposition that prohibiting the burning of the flag infringes free speech...” - Judge Richard Posner
#25. To: sneakypete (#24)
(Edited)
#26. To: Roscoe, sneakypete, hondo68 (#23)
(Edited)
Judge Richard Posner
Abortion
Drugs
National Security
Same-sex marriage
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
#27. To: sneakypete, Deckard (#20)
There are no prominent powerful conservatives left in America politics.
The "anti-establishment" establishment
#28. To: sneakypete (#20)
#29. To: Deckard (#26)
“Eighteenth-century guys, however smart, could not foresee the culture, technology, etc., of the 21st century.”
#30. To: Roscoe (#29)
(Edited)
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
#31. To: Deckard (#30)
#32. To: Roscoe (#31)
(Edited)
Historical facts are historical facts
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
#33. To: Deckard (#32)
The historical facts show Posner to be a a pro-abortion, pro-homo marriage loon
#34. To: Roscoe (#31)
Historical facts are historical facts.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
#35. To: Roscoe (#33)
And once again your flee the historical facts regarding the actual meaning and original intent of the First Amendment,
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
#36. To: Deckard (#35)
The issue has been settled, didn't you get the memo?
#37. To: Deckard (#34)
#38. To: Roscoe (#31)
The "anti-establishment" establishment
#39. To: hondo68 (#38)
#40. To: misterwhite (#21)
Given the sentiments expressed by the court that you highlighted, how is it that prohibiting hate speech is constitutional?
#41. To: Roscoe, Deckard (#37)
"The statute of Nebraska preventing and punishing the desecration of the flag of the United States and prohibiting the sale of articles upon which there is a representation of the flag for advertising purposes is not unconstitutional..." - Halter v. Nebraska, 205 U.S. 34 (1907)
The act, among other things, makes it a misdemeanor, punishable by fine or imprisonment, or both, for anyone to sell, expose for sale, or have in possession for sale, any article of merchandise upon which shall have been printed or placed, for purposes of advertisement, a representation of the flag of the United States. It expressly excepted, however, from its operation any newspaper, periodical, book, etc., on which should be printed, painted, or placed a representation of the flag "disconnected from any advertisement." 1 Cobbey's Ann.Stat.Neb. 1903, c. 139.
By the statute in question, the state has in substance declared that no one subject to its jurisdiction shall use the flag for purposes of trade and traffic -- a purpose wholly foreign to that for which it was provided by the nation. Such a use tends to degrade and cheapen the flag in the estimation of the people, as well as to defeat the object of maintaining it as an emblem of national power and national honor. And we cannot hold that any privilege of American citizenship or that any right of personal liberty is violated by a state enactment forbidding the flag to be used as an advertisement on a bottle of beer. It is familiar law that even the privileges of citizenship and the rights inhering in personal liberty are subject, in their enjoyment, to such reasonable restraints as may be required for the general good. Nor can we hold that anyone has a right of property which is violated by such an enactment as the one in question. If it be said that there is a right of property
#42. To: hondo68 (#27)
Walter B. Jones is still in the HOR, and retains his seat on the Armed Services Committee, in spite of Boehner removing him from others. At 73 years old, he still refuses to tow the party line. He's also a member of the Liberty Caucus.
#43. To: A K A Stone (#28)
You're liberal,
#44. To: nolu chan (#40)
"If Donald Trump went somewhere and gave a political speech, and a bunch of rabble took umbrage and decided to riot, that does not make the speech of Donald Trump a crime."
#45. To: nolu chan (#40)
Political speech is protected. Hate speech is not necessarily political speech and can be made for the purpose of creating a disturbance.
#46. To: misterwhite (#44)
But burning the flag is done intentionally to provoke a reaction, to incite an immediate breach of the peace, or to incite imminent lawless action.
#47. To: sneakypete (#45)
I think that even you will admit that is one VERY blurry line.
#48. To: sneakypete (#43)
You're liberal, Thanks! So were Thomas Jefferson,Ben Franklin,and George Washington.
#49. To: A K A Stone (#48)
You're a leftist liberal 75 percent of the time.
#50. To: nolu chan (#46)
#51. To: sneakypete (#49)
We are either ALL free,or NONE of us are free.
#52. To: nolu chan (#47)
"A law prohibiting flag burning per se, prohibits political expression."
#53. To: misterwhite (#52)
#54. To: A K A Stone (#53)
"I think flag burning is protected "speech'.
#55. To: misterwhite (#54)
Then our laws against hate speech and sexual harassment should be repealed. Time for everyone to suck it up.
#56. To: hondo68 (#0)
'No president is allowed to burn the First Amendment’
#57. To: rlk, Kim Jung Trump (#56)
president can [burn the First Amendment] by executive decision
The "anti-establishment" establishment
#58. To: misterwhite (#50)
Apple and oranges. Burning the American flag is not the same as a political editorial or a political speech. So you can stop trying to convince me that there's no difference.
#59. To: misterwhite (#52)
States ban cross burning and there's no constitutional crisis. Flag burning can be banned for the same reason -- the intent is to provoke a reaction, to incite an immediate breach of the peace, or to incite imminent lawless action.
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