[Home] [Headlines] [Latest Articles] [Latest Comments] [Post] [Mail] [Sign-in] [Setup] [Help] [Register]
|
Status: Not Logged In; Sign In
Historical Title: Lincoln Starts a War by nolu chan There can be no doubt that Lincoln waited for the Senate to adjourn and began a war as soon as it was out of session. He did not call them back into session until July 4, 1861 when the war was a fait accompli. He then delivered a message to the special session of congress where he lied his ass off. Within 8 days of taking office, orders of March 12, 1861 issued from the Lincoln administration to reinforce Fort Pickens and thereby violate the armistice that was in effect. These orders to Army Captain Vogdes were delayed until after the Senate adjourned on March 28, 1861 and then delivered by USS Crusader on March 31, 1861. Capt. Vogdes delivered them to Navy Captain Adams on April 1, 1861. Capt. Adams refused to comply with the orders. There is an interesting sequence of events. Courtesy of Cornell University Library, Making of America Digital Collection. [1] Title: Official records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion; Series I - Volume 4: Operations in the Gulf of Mexico (November 15, 1860 - June 7, 1861); Operations on the Atlantic Coast (January 1, 1861 - May 13, 1861); Operations on the Potamac and Rappahannock Rivers (January 5, 1861 - December 7, 1861) [2] Title: The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies; Series 1 - Volume 1 [3] A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774-1875 Official Records, Army, Series 1, Vol 1, Chap. 4, p. 360 [2] Captain VOGDES, U. S. Army, SIR: At the first favorable moment you will land with your company, re-enforce Fort Pickens, and hold the same till further orders. Report frequently, if opportunities present themselves, on the condition of the fort and the circumstances around you. I write by command of Lieutenant-General Scott. I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant, Delivery of these orders was delayed until after the Senate adjourned on March 28, 1861. They were delivered via USS Crusader to Capt. Vogdes, off Pensacola, on March 31, 1861, and by Capt. Vogdes to Navy Capt. Adams on April 1, 1861. Capt. Adams refused to comply with the orders issued by General Scott, asserting it would violate a binding agreement and "would be considered not only a declaration but an act of war." SENATE JOURNAL, March 25, 1861 [3] SENATE JOURNAL, March 27, 1861 To the Senate of the United States: I have received a copy of a resolution of the Senate, passed on the 25th instant, requesting me, if, in my opinion, not incompatible with the public interest, to communicate to the Senate the dispatches of Major Robert Anderson to the War Department during the time he has been in command of Fort Sumter. On examining the correspondence thus called for, I have, with the highest respect for the Senate, come to the conclusion that, at the present moment, the publication of it would be inexpedient. ABRAHAM LINCOLN. Washington, March 26, 1861. END of the Senate Journal for March 28, 1861: Mr. Foster submitted the following resolution: Resolved, That the Senate will adjourn without day at four o'clock this afternoon. The Senate proceeded by unanimous consent to consider the said resolution; and, having been amended on the motion of Mr. Hale, it was agreed to as follows: Resolved, That the Senate do now adjourn without day. Whereupon The President pro tempore declared the Senate adjourned without day. Lincoln did not fail to obtain Congressional approval because Congress was not in session, he waited until Congress adjourned and commenced to initiate a war. Official Records, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 227 EXECUTIVE MANSION, Sir: I desire that an expedition, to move by sea, be got ready to sail as early as the 6th of April next, the whole according to memorandum attached; and that you cooperate with the Secretary of War for that object. Your obedient servant, A. LINCOLN. Hon. SECRETARY NAVY. The memorandum attached called for: From the Navy, three ships of war, the Pocahontas, the Pawnee and the Harriet Lane; and 300 seamen, and one month's stores. From the War Department, 200 men, ready to leave garrison; and one year's stores. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 107-8 You have been designated to take command of an expedition to reinforce and hold Fort Pickens in the harbor of Pensacola. You will proceed to New York where steam transportation for four companies will be engaged; -- and putting on board such supplies as you can ship without delay proceed at once to your destination. The object and destination of this expedition will be communicated to no one to whom it is not already known. Signed: Winfield Scott Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 232 WAR DEPARTMENT, Washington, April 4, 1861. Sir: It having been determined to succor Fort Sumter, you have been selected for this important duty. Accordingly, you will take charge of the transports provided in New York, having the troops and supplies on board, to the entrance of Charleston Harbor, and endeavor, in the first instance, to deliver the subsistence. If you are opposed in this you are directed to report the fact to the senior naval officer off the harbor, who will be instructed by the Secretary of the Navy to use his entire force to open a passage, when you will, if possible, effect an entrance and place both the troops and supplies in Fort Sumter. I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant, SIMON CAMERON, Secretary of War Captain G. V. Fox, Washington, D. C. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 232-3 Confidential. HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY, Washington, D. C., April 4, 1861. Sir: This letter will be handed to you by Captain G. V. Fox, ex-officer of the Navy, and a gentleman of high standing, as well as possessed of extraordinary nautical ability. He is charged by high authority here with the command of an expedition (under cover of certain ships of war) whose object is to reenforce Fort Sumter. To embark with Captain Fox, you will cause a detachment of recruits, say about 200, to be immediately organized at Fort Columbus, with a competent number of officers, arms, ammunition, and subsistence. A large surplus of the latterindeed, as great as the vessels of the expedition will take with other necessaries, will be needed for the augmented garrison of Fort Sumter. The subsistence and other supplies should be assorted like those which were provided by you and Captain Ward, of the Navy, for a former expedition. Consult Captain Fox and Major Eaton on the subject, and give all necessary orders in my name to fit out the expedition, except that the hiring of vessels will be left to others. Some fuel must be shipped. Oil, artillery, implements, fuses, cordage, slow matches, mechanical levers, and guns, etc., should also be put on board. Consult also, if necessary (confidentially), Colonel Tompkins and Major Thornton. Respectfully, yours, WINFIELD SCOTT. Lieutenant-Colonel H. L. SCOTT, Aid-de-Camp, etc. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 110 Herewith I send you a copy of an order received by me last night. You will see by it that I am directed to land my command at the earliest opportunity. I have therefore to request that you will place at my disposal such boats and other means as will enable me to carry into effect the enclosed order. Signed: I. Vogdes, Capt. 1st Artly. Comdg. Capt Adams report (Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 109-10) [1] Captain Adams REFUSED TO OBEY THE ORDER and reported to the Secretary of the Navy as follows: It would be considered not only a declaration but an act of war; and would be resisted to the utmost. Both sides are faithfully observing the agreement (armistice) entered into by the United States Government and Mr. Mallory and Colonel Chase, which binds us not to reinforce Fort Pickens unless it shall be attacked or threatened. It binds them not to attack it unless we should attempt to reinforce it. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 110-11 The Secretary of the Navy issued a CLASSIFIED response to Capt. Adams: Your dispatch of April 1st is received. The Department regrets that you did not comply with the request of Capt. Vogdes. You will immediately on the first favorable opportunity after receipt of this order, afford every facility to Capt. Vogdes to enable him to land the troops under his command, it being the wish and intention of the Navy Department to co-operate with the War Department, in that object. Signed: Gideon Welles, Secty. of the Navy April 11, 1861 - USS Supply -- Ships Log (Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 210) Lincoln relieved Captain Mercer of command of the USS Powhatan. This was coordinated with Secretary of State Seward. Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles was not informed. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 109 WASHINGTON CITY, April 1, 1861. Sir: Circumstances render it necessary to place in command of your ship, and for a special purpose, an officer who is duly informed and instructed in relation to the wishes of the Government, and you will therefore consider yourself detached; but in taking this step the Government does not intend in the least to reflect upon your efficiency or patriotism; on the contrary, have the fullest confidence in your ability to perform any duty required of you. Hoping soon to be able to give you a better command than the one you now enjoy, and trusting that you will have full confidence in the disposition of the Government toward you, I remain, ABRAHAM LINCOLN Captain SAMUEL MERCER, U. S. Navy. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 108 You will proceed to New York and with least possible delay assume command of any steamer available. Proceed to Pensacola Harbor, and, at any cost or risk, prevent any expedition from the main land reaching Fort Pickens, or Santa Rosa. You will exhibit this order to any Naval Officer at Pensacola, if you deem it necessary, after you have established yourself within the harbor. This order, its object, and your destination will be communicated to no person whatever, until you reach the harbor of Pensacola. Signed: Abraham Lincoln Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 108 Fit out Powhatan to go to sea at the earliest possible moment, under sealed orders. Orders by confidential messenger go forward tomorrow. Signed: Abraham Lincoln Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 109 You will fit out the Powhatan without delay. Lieutenant Porter will relieve Captain Mercer in command of her. She is bound on secret service; and you will under no circumstances communicate to the Navy Department the fact that she is fitting out. Signed: Abraham Lincoln April 5, 1861 - Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles sends orders to Captain Mercer of the USS Powhatan, not knowing about the secret orders of Seward/Lincoln. Lincoln relieved Captain Mercer four days before, on April Fool's Day. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 235 Confidential.] NAVY DEPARTMENT, April 5, 1861. Sir: The U. S. steamers Powhatan, Pawnee, Pocahontas, and Harriet Lane will compose a naval force, under your command, to be sent to the vicinity of Charleston, S. C., for the purpose of aiding in carrying out the objects of an expedition of which the War Department has charge. The primary object of the expedition is to provision Fort Sumter, for which purpose the War Department will furnish the necessary transports. Should the authorities at Charleston permit the fort to be supplied, no further particular service will be required of the force under your command, and after being satisfied that supplies have been received at the fort the Powhatan, Pocahontas, and Harriet Lane will return to New York and the Pawnee to Washington. Should the authorities at Charleston, however, refuse to permit or attempt to prevent the vessel or vessels having supplies on board from entering the harbor or from peaceably proceeding to Fort Sumter, you will protect the transports or boats of the expedition in the object of their mission, disposing of your force in such manner as to open the way for their ingress, and afford, so far as practicable, security to the men and boats, and repelling by force, if necessary, all obstructions toward provisioning the fort and reenforcing it; for in case of resistance to the peaceable primary object of the expedition a reenforcement of the garrison will also be attempted. These purposes will be under the supervision of the War Department, which has charge of the expedition. The expedition has been intrusted to Captain G. V. Fox, with whom you will put yourself in communication, and cooperate with him to accomplish and carry into effect its object. You will leave New York with the Powhatan in time to be off Charleston bar, 10 miles distant from and due east of the light-house, on the morning of the 11th instant, there to await the arrival of the transport or transports with troops and stores. The Pawnee and Pocahontas will be ordered to join you there at the time mentioned, and also the Harriet Lane, which latter vessel has been placed under the control of this Department for this service. On the termination of the expedition, whether it be peaceable or otherwise, the several vessels under your command will return to the respective ports, as above directed, unless some unforeseen circumstances should prevent. I am, respectfully, your obedient servant, GIDEON WELLES, Captain SAMUEL MERCER, April 6, 1861 - Lt. Porter took the Powhatan and sailed, pursuant to secret orders of Seward/Lincoln. Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles found out and had a fit. The Powhatan was the flagship for the Navy operation going to Fort Sumter. Seward/Lincoln took the flagship, and the troops intended to reinforce Fort Sumter, and sent them off on an Atlantic cruise, eventually showing up near Pensacola, Florida. Seward sent a telegram to Porter: Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 112 A dispatch boat caught up with Powhatan and delivered Seward's message. Lt. Porter responded to Seward: Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 112 Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 112 Before leaving, Lt. Porter instructed the Navy Yard officials, Storms and boiler problems delayed Powhatan, but she arrived disguised and flying English colors. When the Powhatan, sort of detached from the Navy and under the State Department, arrived off Florida, it was stopped dead in its tracks by the U.S. Navy which stood in her way and refused to permit her to proceed. Lt. Porter filed this report, April 21, 1861: Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 122 U.S.S. Powhatan, Off Pensacola Bar, April 21, 1861. Sir: I enclose a correspondence which will explain why I am not inside of the harbor. Will you please to lay it before the President? I arrived here a few hours behind the Atlantic, my passage having been retarded by heavy gales, head winds, and defective boilers. I had disguised the ship so that she deceived those who had known her, and after nearing our squadron was standing in (unnoticed) when the steam gunboat Wyandotte, lying alongside the Atlantic, commenced making signals to me, which I did not answer, but stood on. The steamer then put herself in my way, and Captain Meigs, who was on board, hailed me and I stopped. In twenty minutes more I should have been inside or sunk. Captain Meigs delivered me Colonel Browns letter dated April 17, 1861, which will explain why I was not permitted to proceed. ... Official Records, Army, Series 1, Vol 1, Chap 4, page 368-70 [2] Honorable WM. H. SEWARD, Secretary of State: DEAR SIR: We expect to touch at Key West, and will be able to set things in order there and give the first check to the secession movement by firmly establishing the authority of the United States in that most ungrateful island and city. Thence we propose to send dispatches under cover to you. The officers will write to their friends, understanding that the package will not be broken until after the public has notice through the newspapers of our success or defeat. Our object is yet unknown on board, and if I read the papers of the eve of our departure aright our secret is still a secret in New York. No communication with the shore, however, will be allowed. * * * The dispatch and the secrecy with which this expedition has been fitted out will strike terror into the ranks of rebellion. All New York saw, all the United States knew, that the Atlantic was filling with stores and troops. But now this nameless vessel, her name is painted out, speeds out of the track of commerce to an unknown destination. Mysterious, unseen, where will the powerful bolt fall? What thousands of men, spending the means of the Confederate States, vainly beat the air amid the swamps of the southern coast, and, filling the dank forts, curse secession and the mosquitoes! * * * God promised to send before his chosen people an advance-guard of hornets. Our constant allies are the more efficient mosquitoes and sand-flies. At this time the republic has need of all her sons, of all their knowledge, zeal, and courage. Major Hunt is with us, somewhat depressed at going into the field without his horses. His battery of Napoleon guns, probably the best field guns in our service, is to follow in the Illinois; but the traitor Twiggs surrendered his horses to the rebels of Texas, and the company of well-trained artillerists finds itself, after eight years of practice in that highest and most efficient arm, the light artillery, going into active service as footmen. They, too, feel, the change deeply. * * * I am, most respectfully, your obedient servant, M. C. MEIGS, Captain of Engineers. Official Records, Army, Series 1, Vol. 1, page 368 Hon. WM. H. SEWARD, Secretary of State: DEAR SIR: By great exertions, within less than six days from the time the subject was broached in the office of the President, a war steamer sails from this port; and the Atlantic, built under contract to be at the service of the United States in case of war, will follow this afternoon with 500 troops, of which one company is sappers and miners, one a mounted battery. The Illinois will follow on Monday with the stores which the Atlantic could not hold. While the mere throwing of a few men into Fort Pickens may seem a small operation, the opening of a campaign is a great one. Unless this movement is supported by ample supplies and followed up by the Navy it will be a failure. This is the beginning of the war which every statesman and soldier has foreseen since the passage of the South Carolina ordinance of secession. You will find the Army and the Navy clogged at the head with men, excellent patriotic men, men who were soldiers and sailors forty years ago, but who now merely keep active men out of the places in which they could serve the country. If you call out volunteers you have no general to command. The general born, not made, is yet to be found who is to govern the great army which is to save the country, if saved it can be. Colonel Keyes has shown intelligence, zeal, activity, and I look for a high future for him. England took six months to get a soldier to the Crimea. We were from May to September in getting General Taylor before Monterey. Let us be supported; we go to serve our country, and our country should not neglect us or leave us to be strangled in tape, however red. Respectfully, See also the ship's log of the USS Supply. The link goes to the official records. The Union forces started landing near Fort Pickens during the night of April 11, 1861 before shots were fired at Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861. USS SUPPLY -- SHIPS LOG - APRIL 11, 1861 (Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 210 [1] April 11. -- At 9 p. m. the Brooklyn got Underway and stood in toward the harbor, and during the night landed the troops and marines on board, to reenforce Fort Pickens. Official Records, Army, Series 1, Vol. 1, page 191 [2] No. 64. FORT SUMTER, March 6, 1861. (Received A. G. O., March 9.) Col. S. COOPER, Adjutant-General U. S. Army: COLONEL: I have the honor to report that a very large re-enforcement was landed last night at Cummings Point and bivouacs near No. 10. This morning it was marched out of sight, around the point of the island. Yesterday the three other guns were mounted in No. 10, thus completing its armament of four heavy pieces. They continued working yesterday at the places mentioned in my report, and are still so occupied today. A party has also been at work this morning on the Fort Moultrie glacis. Everything indicates activity and determination. I had the honor to present in No. 58* my opinion of the strength of the army which will be necessary to force an entrance into the harbor. The presence here, as commander, of General Beauregard, recently of the U. S. Engineers, insures, I think, in a great measure the exercise of skill and sound judgment in all operations of the South Carolinians in this harbor. God grant that our country may be saved from the horrors of a fratricidal war! I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant, ROBERT ANDERSON, * No. 58, and several other of Anderson’s letters, not found. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 90 HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY, SIR: At the first favorable moment you will land with your company, reenforce Fort Pickens, and hold the same till further orders. Report frequently, if opportunities present themselves, on the condition of the fort and the circumstances around you. I write by command of Lieutenant-General Scott. I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant, E.B. TOWNSEND, Captain I. VOGDES, Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 107-8 [1] HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY Washington, April 1, 1861. SIR: You have been designated to take command of an expedition to reenforce and hold Fort Pickens,in the harbor of Pensacola. You will proceed with the least possible delay to that place, and you will assume command of all the land forces of the United States within the limits of the State of Florida. You will proceed to New York, where steam transportation for four companies will be engaged, and, putting on board such supplies as you can ship, without delay proceed at once to your destination. The engineer company of sappers and miners; Brevet Major Hunt’s Company M, Second Artillery; Captain Johns’s Company C, Third Infantry; Captain Clitz’s Company E, Third Infantry, will embark with you in the first steamer. Other troops and full supplies will be sent after you as soon as possible. Captain Meigs will accompany you as engineer, and will remain with you until you are established in Fort Pickens, when he will return to resume his duties in this city. The other members of your staff will be Assistant Surgeon John Campbell, medical staff; Captain Rufus Ingalls, assistant quartermaster; Captain Henry F. Clarke, assistant commissary of subsistence; Brevet Captain George L. Hartsuff, assistant adjutant-general, and First Lieutenant George T. Balch, ordnance officer. The object and destination of this expedition will be communicated to no one to whom it is not already known. The naval officers in the Gulf will be instructed to cooperate with you, and to afford every facility in their power for the accomplishment of the object of the expedition, which is the security of Fort Pickens against all attacks, foreign and domestic. Should a shot be fired at you, you will defend yourself and your expedition at whatever hazard, and, if needful for such defense, inflict upon the assailants all the damage in your power within the range of your guns. Lieutenant-Colonel Keyes, military secretary, will be authorized to give all necessary orders and to call upon the staff department for every requisite material and transportation, and other steamers will follow that on which you embark, to carry reenforcements, supplies, and provisions for the garrison of Fort Pickens for six months. Captain Barry’s battery will follow as soon as a vessel can be fitted for its transportation. Two or three foot companies will embark at the same time with the battery. All the companies will be filled up to the maximum standard, those to embark first from the recruits in the harbor of New York. The other companies will be filled, if practicable, with instructed soldiers. You will make Fort Jefferson your main depot and base of operations. You will be careful not to reduce too much the means of the fortresses in the Florida Reef, as they are deemed of greater importance than even Fort Pickens. The naval officers in the Gulf will be instructed to cooperate with you in every way in order to insure the safety of Fort Pickens, Fort Jeff and Fort Taylor. You will fully communicate with them for this end, and will exhibit to them the authority of the President herewith. The President directs that you be assigned to duty from this date according to your brevet rank in the Army. With great confidence in your judgment zeal,and intelligence, I remain, respectfully, WINFIELD SCOTT. Brevet Colonel HARVEY BROWN, U. S. Army, APRIL 2, 1861. Approved: [Enclosure.] All officers of the Army and Navy to whom this order may be exhibited will aid by every means in their power the expedition under the command of Colonel Harvey Brown, supplying him with men and material, and cooperating with him as he may desire. ABRAHAM LINCOLN. Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Vol. 4, page 109-110 [1] U.S. FRIGATE SABINE, SIR: I have the honor to inclose a copy of a letter addressed to me by Captain Vogdes, U. S. Army, who is here in command of some troops sent out in January last to reenforce the garrison of Fort Pickens. I have declined to land the men as Captain Vogdes requests, as it would be in direct violation of the orders* from the Navy Department under which I am acting. The instructions from General Scott to Captain Vogdes are of old date (March 12) and may have been given without a full knowledge of the condition of affairs here. They would be no justification to me. Such a step is too important to be taken without the clearest orders from proper authority. It would most certainly be viewed as a hostile act, and would be resisted to the utmost. No one acquainted with the feelings of the military assembled under General Bragg can doubt that it would be considered not only a declaration but an act of war. It would be a serious thing to bring on by any precipitation a collision which may be entirely against the wishes of the Administration. At present both sides are faithfully observing the agreement entered into by the U. S. Government with Mr. Mallory and Colonel Chase. This agreement binds us not to reenforce Fort Pickens unless it shall be attacked or threatened. It binds them not to attack it unless we should attempt to reenforce it. I saw General Bragg on the 30th ultimo, who reassured me the conditions on their part should not be violated. While I can not take on myself under such insufficient authority as General Scott’s order the fearful responsibility of an act which seems to render civil war inevitable, I am ready at all times to carry out whatever orders I may receive from the honorable Secretary of the Navy. In conclusion, I beg you will please send me instructions as soon as possible, that I may be relieved from a painful embarrassment. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, H.A. ADAMS, Hon. GIDEON WELLES, - - - [Enclosure.] SIR: Herewith I send you a copy of an order* received by me last night. You will see by it that I am directed to land my command at the earliest opportunity. I have therefore to request that you will place at my disposal such boats and other means as will enable me to carry into effect the enclosed order. Yours, etc., I. VOGDES Captain H. A. ADAMS, Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Volume 4, page 117 FORT PICKENS, FLA., April 14, 1861. DEAR CAPTAIN: General Bragg has just sent me a verbal message by his adjutant-general, Colonel Wood, requesting to know why the armistice had been violated by reenforcing Fort Pickens. In reply I stated that I never had been a party to any armistice, but that in landing from the Brooklyn and taking the command of Fort Pickens I had acted under orders from the General Government. He then stated that he was directed by General Bragg to demand from the late commander, addressing himself to Lieutenant Slemmer, why it had been violated on his part. He answered that he obeyed the orders of his Government. No further official communication passed between us. Your obedient servant, I. VOGDES, Captain H. A. ADAMS, Official Records, Navy, Series 1, Volume 4, page 117 HEADQUARTERS TROOPS CONFEDERATE STATES, SIR: Your communication of the 13th instant, announcing the re-enforcement of Fort Pickens, was received by me this evening. How you could suppose I was aware of that fact, and that it was done by “order of the U. S. Government,” I do not understand, when it was accomplished under cover of the darkness of night and in violation of a solemn compact. I only wish I could construe the orders of your Government as a justification of the act. I am, sir, your obedient servant, BRAXTON BRAGG, Captain H. A. ADAMS, - - - - - Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 61.
#1. To: civilwarbuff (#0)
Some civil war history straight from the official records.
Gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.
Or just make a mess.
Results were great, at the end of it all.
If you enjoy dead and maimed people.
I don't, but that was the price of secession to protect a slave culture. Slavery killed and maimed generation after generation. That the slaveholders got killed and maimed is justice. That the country that permitted it was horribly traumatized is justice. That the wealth built up through slave agriculture was destroyed is justice. And killing all those folks served another purpose: it reduced the voting bloc that would stand against the reforms that came afterwards. Without a civil war to wipe out about a half-million pro- slavery voting males, it would have been much harder to amend the Constitution to abolish slavery and grant citizenship to the slaves. The pro-slavery population would have been as numerous as the Jim Crow advocates were, and as tenacious, and the anti- slavery forces would have made all sorts of corrupt bargains with them, and avoided a fight - which would have left millions in chains longer. Of course a society that holds millions in chains deserves to be destroyed with hideous slaughter. The Germans deserved to be firebombed. The Japanese deserved to be nuked. And the Southern slavers deserved to be burnt out and blown to pieces on the battlefield. Get rid of hundreds of thousands of them and it's a lot easier to quickly change the polity that remains. The result of the Civil War was spectacularly good, far, far better than anything that Lincoln would have himself dreamed of at the start. Precisely BECAUSE the South fought so hard and so well, the opportunity was had to utterly destroy the whole slave culture and wreck the entire economy, and kill huge numbers of pro-slavery men, removing them from the voting rolls and making it easier to change everything afterwards. The Germans learned the wrong message from the Franco-Prussian war, and didn't learn from World War I. Militarism - the hope of conquest - had to be beaten out of them with millions and millions dead, the wholesale destruction of their homes and monuments, and the tread of foreign troops in occupation over them, forcing them to their knees, forcing them to carry bodies out of concentration camps and bury them - humiliating them and grinding their arrogant faces in the dirt. Only then could the FULL trauma of war be visited upon them and all fight permanently beaten out of that people. It worked. Germany, and Japan are the most pacifist countries in the world. Likewise in America, the very success of Southern arms for the first two and a half years of war was necessary to set the stage for the wholesale destruction of the South in a fight to death, and only that wholesale destruction and the anger and vengeance that came from it could enrage the North enough to utterly strip the rebels of the vote and citizen rights, give the blacks the vote, and change the whole structure of the country forever. Without First and Second Bull Run, Chancellorsville, the Peninsula, and victory after victory, the final devastating assault would never have been so complete, and the eradication of slavery so quick, so absolute, and so pitiless on the "properly rights" of the slavers. The dead and the maimed in that war had it coming. There was no other way that was as good or as complete.
I don't... Yeah, I see what mean: The Germans learned the wrong message from the Franco-Prussian war, and didn't learn from World War I. Militarism - the hope of conquest - had to be beaten out of them with millions and millions dead, the wholesale destruction of their homes and monuments, and the tread of foreign troops in occupation over them, forcing them to their knees, ... Likewise in America, the very success of Southern arms for the first two and a half years of war was necessary to set the stage for the wholesale destruction of the South in a fight to death, and only that wholesale destruction and the anger and vengeance that came from it could enrage the North enough to utterly strip the rebels of the vote and citizen rights, give the blacks the vote, and change the whole structure of the country forever. You sound like you constantly have a refrain from Alice's Restaurant Massacree running through your mind: Came to talk about the draft. They got a building down in New York City, it's called Whitehall Street, where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning. 'Cause I wanted to look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York, and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I walked in and sat down and they gave me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the psychiatrist, room 604." And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, kill, kill, kill." And I started jumpin' up and down yelling, "Kill! Kill!" and he started jumpin' up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "Kill! Kill!" And the Sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy." All in the cause of a good, and moral, and utmost Christian reason, of course. - - - - - - - - - - Actually, slavery was constitutional, and every single state of the Union agreed to it when they signed up of their own free will. They did not have to sign up, and they could have left. Well, you said it again. I will remind you again that most of the dead and maimed were Union casualties. As Yogi Berra would say, you can look it up. If you say they had it coming, who am I to argue?
Which is why the United States deserved about a million deaths, total, on BOTH sides. The North had the burden of the attack, in an era when defensive weapons had the advantage, so they suffered more combat casualties. But the North had more numbers, so as a proportion of the male population, the Southern military deaths were a greater percentage of the population of the Confederacy than the Northern losses were of the North. Southern civilian deaths, from disease and starvation, were much higher because of the destruction of the Southern economy and cities and property, There was none of that in the North. The North had indeed connived at slavery, as you pointed out. So it was also due to pay the price in blood also. Because America built slavery into its Constitution, it was an evil country that had to be destroyed. The Constitution failed and the country came apart. The issue of slavery was resolved by breaking the Constitution and stripping the conquered pro-slavery side of the vote until the Constitution was changed, after the fact, to contain the new reality, imposed by force. Because the Constitution was wrong and the country was evil, might had to make right. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. He hath trampled out the vintage where the grapes of wrath were stored. He hath loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword. His Truth is marching on.
Yes, they all had it coming. The poor Irish immigrants who got off the boat with no money and took a bonus to sign up with one side or the other, they had it coming. The only ones who did not have it coming were those with the means to hire a substitute and avoid the draft. Like Robert Lincoln. Well, at least we have progressed to the point of admitting that the holy mission of Lincoln and the Radicals was to destroy the country, not save the Union as it existed pursuant to the agreed upon Constitution.
Americans agreed in the Constitution to protect and preserve slavery. Americans had no right, under God, to HAVE slavery. One cannot "agree" as a people to do evil without consequences. The country was evil, the Constitution was evil, and a sixth of the population was held in chains, from generation to generation on account of it. THAT country had to be destroyed, THAT Constitution, torn apart. Ending slavery was more important then preserving the peace, wealth or rule of law of the nation. It was more important than preserving the lives of the rest of the Americans, who were content to let a sixth of their number be in chains. I don't care about Lincoln's MOTIVES. He too was a pawn, or perhaps a bishop, on a chessboard where good and evil, God and Satan, battled it out. The American Constitution and political system stood on the side of Satan, and the people who supported it, and who believed that slavery was just a political issue, and ultimately nobody's business, were pawns of Satan. Because they would not let go of their belief in their slavery system, they were active agents of evil, and they all deserved to die as the penalty for that. America as it existed WAS destroyed, forever, thank God! The Constitution was shredded and had to be rewritten to completely extirpate the notion that men could own men, and that states had any say at all in that matter. Human liberty is more important than the rule of law, when the law is evil. and far more important than the dignity of any constitution. The Irish immigrants chose to come here, to a nation at war. They could have gone to Canada. They could have gone to Argentina. They could have tried to make the best of it in Ireland. They CHOSE to come here. And then, on arrival, some CHOSE to be hired to go off to war and kill. Soldiers die. They signed up to die. Did they know what they were fighting for? Were they fighting for a "cause" (both sides had Irish soldiers) or were they fighting for money, mercenaries. They didn't HAVE to fight, they CHOSE to fight. When you choose to pick up a gun and march out to kill other men for hire, you expose yourself to death and crippling. It was their choice. They were not rounded up and drafted. The Union that existed under the agreed Constitution was evil and not worth preserving. It's too bad the slavers were so evil that they refused to let go of the evil and chose instead to bring justice down upon their head and their people. It's too bad the Northerners were weak and vacillating and did not care about slavery, as opposed to strongly saying: the time of slavery is over, end it or we will march down there and burn you out to end it. It's too bad that those things were not the motivations of war, but that instead the country sleepwalked into a war over slavery, pretending that it was about petty political things, and refusing the admit what it really WAS about until the issue was so deeply engaged that there was no way out. It would have been nice to have been able to end the old evil and revise the country peacefully, without war. But the people who derived an advantage from enslaving other people were too hellbent on the practice to allow that - and indeed had worked slavery into the very legal fabric of the nation. And the people on the other side were, for the most part, just not willing to fight to end the enslavement of others. So the country rotted at the head, divided, and fought a bitter war. The country didn't survive it intact. The Constitution didn't. The nature of the people didn't. Everything changed. That was what it took to rip the threads of slavery out of the legal and social fabric. It would have been better - less hard on life and property - to have done that peacefully. But it was more important that it be done than that the country should survive as it was, or the Constitution be respected, or those Americans who were not slaves be allowed to continue to live their lives in peace and security. In the end, it was better to kill a million whites and destroy the country than to leave slavery be. It happened the way it had to. I would hope that the lesson to be drawn is that the Constitution is NOT the ultimate law. There is a law of good and evil above that, and that if good is not respected and evil is embedded because of the Constitution itself, that the Constitution has to go down. This is not an incentive to revolution, but rather, an incentive for people to not accept evil in the belief that the Constitution will be able to simply allow the evil to be unchecked and unchallenged - the belief that as long as you get your evil enacted into law, you're good to go and there's nothing anybody can do about it. The rule of law cannot itself hold when the law is devoted to evil. That's the lesson of the Civil War. America got what it deserved. We should accept that, sorrowfully, and see to it that we don't make the same mistake again.
Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave.' " 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Leviticus 25:44-46King James Version (KJV) 44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. Exodus 21:20-21 When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. Ephesians 6:5-9King James Version (KJV) 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Colossians 3:22-25King James Version (KJV) 22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God; 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. 1 Timothy 6:1-5King James Version (KJV) 6 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. 2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
So, Americans were Hebrews, and the Americans were respecting God's Law of slavery in the Torah, were they? No. If you're going to invoke God's law of slavery from Mt. Sinai, you had better be ready to FOLLOW it, ALL of it. God forbade the Hebrews from having their co-religionists as slaves. God required the freedom of slaves at the Jubilee. God did not permit the Hebrews to have sex with their slaves. They had to marry them, which ended their slavery. Uh oh. If you're going to invoke God, have a care for what you're invoking, because God's law of slavery was utterly disregarded by American slavers, in virtually every respect.
Uh oh. Uh oh. I quoted scripture. You didn't. As I have noticed on several occasions your intrepretations are often incorrect. Go ahead and show me from scripture where it says what you say. Your point was that any nation that practiced slavery should be destroyed by God. You hinted that any nation that supports abortion should be nuked. I know Chan said it first but your answer basically conodned it. Or would at least consider it. Since you said many times that you would vote for pro abortion Hillary over pro life Ted Cruz. Shouln't you also be judged and killed by God? Since in your heart you are ok with abortion in certain circumstances. Like instead of christian Ted Cruz becoming President. You would support a thief who murders children. You are a true hypocrite.
We're ALL going to be killed by God - me, you, Nolu - everybody. As fas as quoting Scripture goes, you put down some lines, which didn't prove the point you were trying to make. I've played that game with you before - spent a whole afternoon lining up the poverty laws from Scripture. I posted it. It's somewhere on this board somewhere. I quoted Scripture exhaustively, in context. You ignored it completely, as if it never happened, and went right on saying exactly what you said before. Could I go in and pull out of Torah the specific provisions in which God prohibits the enslavement of fellow religionists? Sure. Could I lay out the law by which masters could not have sex with their slaves without marriage? Sure. It's all there. The law of slavery that God gave the Hebrews was a machine that was designed to induce conversion among captives, for conversion brought liberation and a share in Israel. God's law of slavery wasn't about slavery, it was about protecting lives from being killed, and giving them the chance to see the light and convert to the worship of God, at which point slavery ended. There was a purpose to it, and that purpose was not to make Israelites rich, but to be a vehicle for the conversion of slaves to God. American slavery had nothing in common with Israelite slavery. The Americans did not care about God's law of slavery. They had their own, and it was a vehicle of profit and oppression, not conversion. I could spend my afternoon putting together all of those verses comprehensively, and post it. I'm not going to, because past experience has shown you will ignore it, because it doesn't fit your politics.
Not true. If it was you would gave linked it.
The thread was called "The Economics of God", and it was first posted on August 11, 2015. I walked the extra mile with you, used your preferred translation. You were inveterately hostile and remain so. It was a great deal of work putting those posts together, collecting the quotes in order, laying them end to end. I did the work, and you just ignored it and attacked it and me. So I resolved never to do that again for you. You insult me at every turn, and when I try to meet you halfway, or in that particular thread even all the way - it is completely unavailing. Experience has taught me that you are not an honest judge, and that I will get no justice in your court. So I no longer even try to come there. At one point I directly quoted Jesus to make a point - and you called me a liar because you didn't agree with the point. When I pointed out that it was Jesus saying that, not me, you simply ignored that post and attacked something else. I appreciate the forum you have put up here, this Liberty's Flame. I enjoy posting on it. I recognize that it is your site, and that you can do with it as you please. I find that you are reasonable in running this site. And that's about as far as we walk down the path with each other. Since you've called me a liar over and over again, you've made it abundantly clear that in your view I'm evil. I obviously don't share your view in that regard. There's nothing more to be said about it, and nothing to be done. I've simply given up. That's all.
Not against you. Just the crap you believe in your ignorance. I actually like you. You give your opinions. You give them in detail. I don't disagree with everything you say just the things I mention.
There are no replies to Comment # 61. End Trace Mode for Comment # 61.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest |
|
[Home] [Headlines] [Latest Articles] [Latest Comments] [Post] [Mail] [Sign-in] [Setup] [Help] [Register]
|