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Title: The Scotch-Irish, or Ulster-Scots
Source:
LF
URL Source: http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/re ... t.cgi?ArtNum=48373&Disp=29#C29
Published: Oct 28, 2016
Author: Vicomte13/nolu chan
Post Date: 2016-10-28 10:56:27 by nolu chan
Keywords: None
Views: 1181
Comments: 8
The Scotch-Irish, or Ulster-Scots [nolu chan] I have moved this discussion here as it was off topic where it was. In any case, it is my belief that perceived inaccuracies should not be left unchallenged. http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=48373&Disp=29#C29 #29. To: nolu chan (#27) The Scotch-Irish did not come from Scotland. They came from Northern Ireland. They were the Presbyterian descendants of the Scots who migrated to the "Irish Plantation" launched by James I in 1606, whereby he authorized the Protestants of Scotland to invade Ireland and take what they pleased from the Catholics. They did, but they only got so far before the native Catholic Irish resistance stopped their momentum and drove them into their Ulster bunker, where they remain today. Ulster did well for awhile, but then the English in the early 1700s, ever greedy for London interests, imposed laws on Ulster that effectively broke the textile industry, creating massive unemployment, and emigration from Ireland to America. The men who came over were not Scots, they were from Ireland. And the Americans of the period, and those people themselves, called themselves Scotch- Irish or just Irish, not Scots-Irish. Today, people punctilious about Scottishness, insist on the Scots being called Scots, not Scotch. That's fine. But the particular group that emigrated to America in the 1700s are not properly called "Scots-Irish". They were, and are, properly called "Scotch- Irish", because that's what they called themselves, and because they are not Scots, they are Irish. The word change indicates that important difference. Scots don't like to be called Scotch. The Scotch-Irish are not Scottish, however. They're Irish. Protestant Irish. The Orange. The Ulstermen. The use of the offensive word, to Scots, today, highlights that difference. The English Parliament did not break Scotland with its tariffs and rules. But it DID break Presbyterian Ireland, destroyed its economy, prompting a great deal of animus between the Irish Presbyterians and their English government, causing massive immigration to the Americas, where they settled on the frontiers as Scotch-Irish - and thought (and still think) of themselves as Irish in origin, not Scottish. Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton are descended from the Scotch-Irish. When they referred to their ethnicities, which was rarely, it was within the context of the internecine Irish rivalry, and they identified themselves as being of Irish extraction. The Scottish are Scots. The Presbyterian Irish who came over in the 1700s are Scotch-Irish. Vicomte13 posted on 2016-10-27 10:57:13 ET Vicomte13 #29
If my time in Scotland taught me anything, it is that the people are Scots, and Scotch is a golden nectar of the gods given to the people.
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#1. To: All (#0)
Much of this appears to be the opinions, perhaps researched from writings, of someone who has never lived in Northern Ireland or Scotland, almost certainly an American. By way of background, I was resident in Scotland for three years, and resident in Northern Ireland for a couple of years, and got married to a local in Northern Ireland. As stated previously, scotch is a liquor. Scots are people. Scots who settled in Ulster are Ulster Scots. They would never use the term scotch to refer to people. Northern Ireland is not, and never has been, part of Great Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the UK. The terms Northern Ireland and Ulster are not really interchangeable. Northern Ireland contains six counties. Ulster contains those six and three more in the Republic of Ireland. Ulster refers to one of the four provinces of Ireland, and it is a term which predates the partitioning, and the existence of Northern Ireland. I am not punctillious about calling Scots, Scots. Scots are. They will invariably correct the errant use, invoking the nectar of the gods story. I have seen it and heard it many a time to correct a Yank misuse of scotch. It is done in a jovial way, but they enjoyed doing it. It is not offensive. The Scots laugh at the display of Yankee ignorance and take the mickey out of them, give them stick, etc. Really? In Northern Ireland? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-18769781 This only reinforces my opinion that you could not possibly have lived there. They are not Irish. No one who calls himself Irish would think of flying a Union Jack. Those who call themselves Irish flaunt the tricula. Ulster Scots will proudly claim being British. As for the Ulster-Scots, the Ulster-Scots Agency is located in Donegal. They should have a reasonable idea of whether they are Scots or a liquor handed down from the gods. In a publication of the Ulster-Scots Agency in Donegal, Ulster-Scots and the Declaration of Indepedence, they state, British Prime Minister at the time Horace Walpole was less flattering, with a jibe to King George III and the British Cabinet: “Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson . . .!” Walpole may have been specifically referring to Scotsman the Rev. John Witherspoon, the only clergyman to sign the Declaration, but he will have been highly conscious of the role of the Ulster-Scots in the revolutionary struggle. Washington, a Yank, may say scotch, but no self-respecting Scot is going to call himself a liquor, even if it was handed down from the gods. Using scotch to refer to the people is an Americanism that Scots like to make fun of. The Ulster-Scots came from (originated in) Scotland, exactly as their name implies. Centuries later, the descendants of the Scots, and the native Irish have largely not integrated. It is not a matter or religion, or how to complete the Lord's prayer. The Scots arrived in Ireland as Imperial Storm Troopers. They mixed with the Irish about like the storm troopers mixed with Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker. The Orange? You think that signifies Irish? That refers to the Dutch-born King William of Orange. He defeated the army of Catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne (1690). The apprentice boys (men) like their annual parade past Catholic areas flaunting Union Jacks. And their King Billy pins. The Orange Order is a 'fraternal' organisation, named for William of Orange, the Protestant Dutchman who seized the thrones of Catholic King James II back in the 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688. Two years later, 'King Billy' saw off James for good at the Battle of the Boyne, near Dublin. He is revered by the Orange Order as a champion of his faith and the man who secured the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland. The 'marching season' is a period of events from April to August, with the highpoint on 12 July when Orangemen march to commemorate William's victory. For many Catholics, these marches are triumphalist and sectarian - a means of very publicly 'rubbing in' a historical wrong - with some traditional Orange routes passing through or by staunchly Catholic and nationalist areas. Some of those marches have been re-routed but some remain contentious. At Garvaghy Road in Portadown, County Armagh, Orangemen make an annual protest at not being permitted to parade along the route they want to take. Efforts are made to reduce problems around contentious parades with re-routing and highly visible policing. Really? Potato famine.
My wife wrote her Master's Thesis on Scotch-Irish immigration to America from the Ulster Plantation. They were a specific people that immigrated in a specific time, and were called specific things in America, which is the only place where they exist. Scotch-Irish, like Pennsylvania Dutch (who are not Dutch but German) are American terms, for a particular, identifiable, immigrant group in America. What the Scots call themselves in Scotland today is irrelevant. That the Scots laugh at the use of "Scotch" is irrelevant. The proper name, from an historical research perspective, for this particular immigrant group, is "Scotch-Irish". That is the term by which they were referred in the historical record - not "Scots-Irish", because the people who making the immigration records were Americans, not Scottish, and were not sensitive to Scottish sensitivities, and did not give a damn. Further, the people who immigrated from the Ulster Plantation, as it was called, were not Scots at all. The people who came into Ulster were, but the people who left Ulster for America did so three generations later. They were born in Ireland, were tied to the Irish economy. They were not Scots any more than the Norman conquerors of England in 1066 were Vikings. Their great-great grandparents were Vikings, but they were Norman-French. And the Scotch-Irish who emigrated to America were Irish, not Scottish, and they did not name themselves that - they were called that by the Americans into whose land they came. If you're going to write about the Scotch-Irish and submit it for a grade to historians, you will need to use the correct terminology, which does not relate to modern Scottish sensitivities about the term for them. The Americans of Irish origin who came from the descendants of the Ulster Plantation are properly called "Scotch-Irish", historically and at present. "Scots-Irish" would be a modern anachronism, a revision of the historical record to reflect modern Scottish sensitivities that have no relevance to the Protestant Irish immigration to America. The Potato Famine drove the CATHOLIC Irish into the Americas. The breaking of the Ulster Plantation textile economies by Parliamentary action in the early 1700s, 100 years after settlement, is what drove the Protestant Irish to emigrate to America, in droves. America called them the Scotch-Irish. That is the actual history. If you disagree, well, I can send you my wife's thesis on the matter. She got high honors. She's French and doesn't CARE about the sensitivities of the Irish, OR the Scots, OR the Americans, for that matter. She used the historical record, and her research is what caused me to amend my own vocabulary. Arguing with me about this because of your modern experience in Scotland is very much like the yahoos who argue law with you. They really don't know what they are talking about. You do. In this case, flip the roles. You're the yahoo here. Don't dig deeper. I don't like this.
#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)
Scotch used for a group of people is an American bastardization of the correct terms. It has no application whatever in the UK. Only to ignorant Yanks. As I said, whoever came up with this crap was very likely to be an American. Dig it.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest The Scotch-Irish did not come from Scotland. They came from Northern Ireland.
The use of the offensive word, to Scots, today, highlights that difference.
They were, and are, properly called "Scotch-Irish", because that's what they called themselves, and because they are not Scots, they are Irish. The word change indicates that important difference. Scots don't like to be called Scotch. The Scotch-Irish are not Scottish, however. They're Irish. Protestant Irish. The Orange. The Ulstermen.
One account from Ulster writer the Rev. W.F. Marshall records the far-seeing contribution of the Scots-Irish (Ulster-Scots) in the struggle for American Independence, with General George Washington reportedly stating: "If defeated everywhere else I wll make my last stand for liberty aong the Scotch-Irish of my native Virginia".
Marching for King Billy
The English Parliament did not break Scotland with its tariffs and rules. But it DID break Presbyterian Ireland, destroyed its economy, prompting a great deal of animus between the Irish Presbyterians and their English government, causing massive immigration to the Americas
#2. To: nolu chan (#1)
Replies to Comment # 2. Scotch-Irish, like Pennsylvania Dutch (who are not Dutch but German) are American terms, for a particular, identifiable, immigrant group in America.
What the Scots call themselves in Scotland today is irrelevant. That the Scots laugh at the use of "Scotch" is irrelevant.
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