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Historical Title: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid People who venture into electronic discussion areas will invariable encounter an ideology called Libertarianism. In fact, it is said So what is this belief-set, and why is it so popular in certain subcultures? The following is an outsiders view of Libertarianism. From proponents, you might be told However, I regard the Libertarianism as a kind of business-worshiping cultish religion, which churns out annoying flamers who resemble nothing so much as street-preachers on the Information Sidewalk. In order to understand how one gets from the "moral principles" above to the sort of fanatical proselytizing seen everyday on discussion lists, it's important to grasp how the ideology actually works out, from theory to practice. To start off, Libertarianism is highly axiomatic. Note how the above quote touts its logically consistent approach. There's a set of rules to be applied to evaluate what is proper, and the outcome given is the answer which is correct in terms of the moral principle of the theory. Are the religious thinking connections starting to become evident? This doesn't mean there can't be religious-type schisms in applying the axioms (for example, there's one regarding abortion). But in practice, the rules are simple and tight enough to produce surprisingly uniform positions compared to common political philosophies. Libertarian proselytizers will preach some warm-and-fuzzy story such as Now, how many ideologies have you ever heard state anything like Libertarians are for "individual rights", and against "force" and "fraud" - just as THEY define it. Their use of these words, however, when examined in detail, is not likely to accord with the common meanings of these terms. What person would proclaim themselves in favor of "force and fraud"? One of the little tricks Libertarians use in debate is to confuse the ordinary sense of these words with the meaning as "terms of art" in Libertarian axioms. They try to set up a situation where if you say you're against "force and fraud", then obviously you must agree with Libertarian ideology, since those are the definitions. If you are in favor of "force and fraud", well, isn't that highly immoral? So you're either one of them, or some sort of degenerate (note the cultish aspect again), one who doesn't think "force and fraud must be banished from human relationships". In a phrase I'll probably find myself repeating "I am not making this up". It's important to realized that what might sound like hyperbole or overstatement really, truly, will be found when dealing with Libertarian arguments. Just to pick an example from one public exchange (directed to me) No person should initiate the use of force against another person. All libertarian thought flows logically from this. For instance, taxation is undesirable since it is backed by the coercive force of the state. Naturally the key word is "initiate." So, the question is, does Seth agree with this proposition or not? Of course he will say there have to be certain exceptions. This is the difference between him and a libertarian. Libertarians (like free speech advocated!) prefer not to make exceptions. Note that this is the only political movement, so far as I know, rooted in one simple ethical statement about human rights. This alone biases me in its favor. My reply to this point was to ask if he agreed "No person should do anything evil". I get to define evil, "evil" is taken according to "Sethism". The response: On the other hand, if you agree with the proposition, yet you still don't like the conclusions that libertarians draw from it, then we can refocus our attention on the chain of logic that leads to those conclusions and find where you feel the weak link is. Observe the aspects pointed out above. It's a "agree or disagree" where implicitly "initiate force" is taken to be that of the Libertarian ideology. And it's justified by the axioms, the "chain of logic". Note the rhetoric is made further meaningless by the "initiate force" concept. When Libertarians think using force is justified, they just call it retaliatory force. It's a bit like "war of aggression" versus "war of defense". Rare is the country in history which has ever claimed to be initiating a "war of aggression", they're always retaliating in a "war of defense". The idea that Libertarians don't believe in the initiation of force is pure propaganda. They believe in using force as much as anyone else, if they think the application is morally correct. "initiation of force" is Libertarian term of art, meaning essentially "do something improper according to Libertarian ideology". It isn't even connected much to the actions we normally think of as "force". The question being asked above was really agree or disagree, that it is always wrong for one person to do something improper according to Libertarian ideology. It was just phrased in their preaching way. While you might be told Libertarianism is about individual rights and freedom, fundamentally, it's about business. The words "individual rights", in a civil-society context, are often Libertarian-ese for "business". That's what what they derive as the inevitable meaning of rights and freedom, as a statement of principles: The key to understanding this, and to understanding Libertarianism itself, is to realize that their concept of individual freedom is the "whopper" of "right to have the State back up business". That's a wild definition of freedom. If you voluntarily contract to sell all your future income for $1, they then oppose all government "interference" with your "right" to do this. It's a completely twisted, utterly inverted, perfectly Orwellian statement, almost exactly "Freedom is Slavery". This is not at all obvious or what people tend to think when they're told the song and dance about rights and freedoms. This point about contract and Libertarianism needs to be stressed. Often, the "chain of logic" used by a Libertarian will be a fairly valid set of deductions. But along the way, there will be very subtle assumptions slipped in, such as "contract" (meaning business) as a fundamental right. It can be quite difficult to spot, such as a redefinition of terms, or a whopper like the above. But again, it's very "logical", very "axiomatic". The whole thing reminds me of joke "proofs" that one equals two, e.g. (these come from the University of Toronto Mathematics Network "Classic Fallacies" pages)
The Fallacious Proof:
* Step 1: Let a=b.
* Step 2: Then a^2 = ab,
* Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab,
* Step 4: 2 a^2 = a^2 + ab,
* Step 5: 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 + ab - 2 ab,
* Step 6: and 2 a^2 - 2 ab = a^2 - ab.
* Step 7: This can be written as 2 (a^2 - a b) = 1 (a^2 - a b),
* Step 8: and cancelling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.
Now, the proselytizer might say, isn't every one of those steps a perfectly justified statement backed up by hundreds of years of mathematical thought? Here is a stack of great algebra books, read through the pile before criticizing the conclusion. Then, if someone points out the fallacy (and I won't do so, to underline the difficulty of even this skeleton of an example) they can come at you again and say "Well, that had a problem, but here's a proof by a completely different method" (isn't it just amazing how these come out the same?)
The Fallacious Proof:
* Step 1: -1/1 = 1/-1
* Step 2: Taking the square root of both sides: sqrt(-1/1) = sqrt(1/-1)
* Step 3: Simplifying: sqrt(-1) / sqrt(1) = sqrt(1) / sqrt(-1)
* Step 4: In other words, i/1 = 1/i.
* Step 5: Therefore, i / 2 = 1 / (2i),
* Step 6: i/2 + 3/(2i) = 1/(2i) + 3/(2i),
* Step 7: i (i/2 + 3/(2i) ) = i ( 1/(2i) + 3/(2i) ),
* Step 8: (i^2)/2 + (3i)/2i = i/(2i) + (3i)/(2i),
* Step 9: (-1)/2 + 3/2 = 1/2 + 3/2,
* Step 10: and this shows that 1=2.
This is why, as a pure matter of tactics, it's dangerous to get into preaching contests with Libertarians. Sometimes it's better to say "1=2 is utter nonsense, and if you believe that from the Libertarian Mathematics, you've had your mind rotted". Now, this does leave an opening for a reply "Nyah, nyah, you didn't go over every line of that proof and find the error, you have to do that, or you're close-minded". But someone could do more good at times by pointing out that there are people walking around spouting the political equivalent of "1=2" than getting into an involved discussion about part x of step y. This is where Libertarianism Makes You Stupid, the grip of subtly flawed logic can overwhelm everything else. In part why Libertarian is a disease of techno-geeks is that you have to be fairly intelligent to find that sort of long axiomatic proof at all convincing. Of course, the task is easier when they are "proving" that you don't have to pay taxes, but it gets harder when they try to prove anti-discriminations laws are bad, as we'll see below. Note this is not an attack on Mathematics, Algebra, Logical Reasoning, and all that, which would be another rhetorical tactic they could use as an accusation. This is the basic reasoning problem of Libertarianism. There's a lot of platitudes (against big government), but every once in a while they slip in some kickers (virtually absolute contract). Whenever anyone points out the kickers, they can revert to the platitudes, saying that's *really* what the philosophy's about. And try to smuggle in the kickers via some other route. Consider, how long would to take you to find - and explain - the fallacies in the "proofs" above? Now think about doing this in a political philosophy, much vaguer, with a bunch of cultists proselytizing over it. One of the seamiest and ugliest aspects of Libertarianism is its support of turning back the civil-rights clock to pre-1964 legal situation for businesses. "I am not making this up". They're very explicit about it: That's "rights" according to Libertarianism. Whites-only lunch counters, "No Jews or dogs" hotels, "we don't serve your kind here", "No Irish need apply", "This is man's job", etc. All this is a "right of association" in Libertarian theology. Such a weird position is not just the purview of some position-writers in a corner, but a surprisingly common trait of Libertarians. It's one of the surest way of identifying one, if they justify such a reactionary position from abstract considerations. It must be stressed that a) Libertarians ARE NOT racists, sexists, etc. and b) The above is not meant to comment either way on the much more controversial affirmative-action debate. Libertarians can go to town whenever they're called racist, sexist, and so on for the above (gee, how could anyone ever get that idea?), proclaiming their great personal but private commitment to equality. Of course, they never have to do anything much in this regard since events have passed them by. But they want make sure you know they fully support the ideals, even if they think the all the past decades legal effort should be repealed as immoral and unprincipled. They also love to switch the debate the affirmative action, because that's far more contentious than anti-discrimination. But the position's very plain. Drinking from the wrong water fountain would presumably be "initiation of force", allowing relation of force to eject the malefactor. Some of the most amazingly idiotic things will be said by Libertarians in defense of the above ideas of "rights" and the evils of anti-discrimination law. A few of my favorites, from debates on this topic: The "Why is a raven different from a writing desk?" question What sort of brain-damage does it take to argue this with a straight face? Do they really, really, think someone will say "My god, a lunch counter is JUST LIKE a romantic interest. There's no way to someone could tell them apartment. If a business doesn't want to serve any blacks, that's just like not having sex with someone". But apparently, this is all part of the "right of association" in Libertarianism. The fanatical opposition of Libertarians to anti-discrimination laws also illuminates a crucial aspects of the stupid-making effects of the philosophy. They can never admit even one instance of government intervention doing good overall for society as opposed to the effects of the market. This isn't a matter of preference, it's absolutely crucial to the function of the ideology. If they ever do that, then it's an admission that social engineering can work, the market can fail, and it's just a matter of figuring out what is the proper mixture to have the best society. This is what sets it apart from Liberalism, Conservatism, and so on. One outcome against prediction will not send those intellectual foundations crashing down, because they aren't based so heavily on absolute rules applications. Libertarianism, by contrast, if it ever concedes a market failure fixed by a government law, is in deep trouble. So this in turn leads Libertarians into amazing flights of fancy, for example, to deny the success of civil-rights laws. They must say institutional segregation was somehow all the government's fault, or it would have gone away anyway, or something like that. Rather than racism, it's being made stupid by ideology-poisoning. Libertarian logic is an axiomatic system that bears very little resemblance to standard deductive thought - which is in part why it's so debilitating to people. It's a little like one of those non-Euclidean geometries, internally valid results can be derived from the postulates, but they sound extremely weird when applied to the real world. What Libertarians have the luxury of doing is sitting back and saying "All the problems will be solved if we just let Jesus, err, property into our hearts, err, politics". What they do tactically is to focus on incidents area where the political process is at its worst, and peddle their snake-oil theory, contrasting the gritty reality with their pristine fantasy. Of course the fantasy looks better then! The reason they get away with this is partly that there is no Libertopia, so we don't have a constant series of rile-'em-up stories to point out where Libertopia is an atrocity. Sometimes I think of writing a fictitious "Dispatches from Libertopia" for this sort of stuff. Such as: "Today, Judge Rand ruled that the so-called "child-slavery" provision of the standard employment contract between MegaCorp and all employees was valid. As parents have the control of their children until eighteen, the signing-over of their labor until age 18 to MegaCorp was ruled a valid exercise of parental authority. Judge Rand, in his opinion, stated "The government is not to interfere with economic arrangements, absent a showing of fraud or force, as per the Fundamental Law of Libertopia. All parties with the legal right to contract consented, and that is the sole standard of evaluation. The fact that MegaCorp said it would fire any worker who did not agree to this provision is of no consequence, as that is entirely the right of MegaCorp." "The separate individual child contracts were also ruled to be valid. Although the children were told if they did not sign, Mommy and Daddy would lose their jobs and the whole family might starve, this was regarded as simply the employer's right to hire and fire as he or she sees fit. No force, coercion, or fraud within the meaning of Libertopia Law was applied." Junior Warbucks, a MegaCorp spokesman, said "Do you make your children do chores? What's the difference?" But of course this can be attacked in various ways, because Libertopia is pure fantasy, and the real-world rarely stacks up well to a fantasy, especially a political one. A Libertarian can blithely argue that all problems would be solved by private charity, by people of goodwill, or if government would just get out of the way. It's a common tactic: Since there's no Libertopia, they never have to admit being in error and to what will happen under their proposed regime. That's a great debating advantage. "There are all kinds of Libertarians" I call this criticism "X means nothing, except for the good parts". Rare is the person (especially the Libertarian), who will attempt to invalidate a criticism of Communist ideology along the lines of "There are all kinds of Communists - Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyites, etc.". Yes, Libertarians have factions such as Objectivists and debates on "minarchism vs anarchism" and so on. But such obscure doctrinal divisions over theological points don't make broad descriptions any less valid for an overview. Even a harshly critical overview. "You quote a lot from the Libertarian Party documents in your essay, but the Party is not the philosophy. They don't speak for all Libertarians. Does every Republican or Democrat agree with every item in their party's platform? It's unfair to tar everyone with the same brush". My quoting here is mainly to ground my critique in real documents, to establish "I am not making this up". For example, making business segregation legal again is such a kooky position nowadays that Libertarian-naive readers would likely strongly suspect that was a smear. But no, it's very explicitly advocated, completely justified in terms of the internal (il)logic, laid out quite blatantly. The average person hears all about the Republican's problem with abortion issues, or the Democrat's issues with entitlement programs. Libertarianism should not be exempted from criticisms of similar type. "Any political philosophy has its nuts. Libertarianism no worse than any other in this regard" I disagree. I think it is. Any sort of ordered approach to thinking forms a kind of philosophical framework, and hence may be termed an "-ism" of some sort. But I don't see them all as equivalent, and I doubt many people do either. Is Feminism as bad for rational thought as Fascism? Every ideology has weaknesses and blind spots, but the specific manifestation of Libertarianism is to make its followers completely unable to deal with any sort of analysis of power other than the most basic sort of government action. Thus, not only do they develop a mental block against the actual functioning of huge portions of our society, but this block then often turns into raving denial when anyone else says something outside their blinders. It is often said "anything taken to excess is harmful", but this is unnecessarily crude. In medical substance information, there's the concept of lethal dose, average dose, and most importantly ratio of lethal amount to useful amount. For this last, I think a workable analog is a kind of "stupidity/utility" ratio, and informally, Libertarianism is just off the chart in terms of what is commonly seen among educated people. "Libertarians don't worship business. For example they criticize subsidies or tariffs all the time" This very frequent objection shows that reader usually hasn't understood the point at all. Liberty and individual freedom is held to be embodied in the ideal conduct of business, much like "building character" is said to be embodied via sports. This doesn't prevent criticism of any particular player as violating the rules of the game. But it does impose a mental block against seeing the *whole system* in a manner any way unfavorable, of examining negative effects from an *institutional* viewpoint. They're like fanatical sports fans who worship a game in the abstract but also particular athletes for being dirty bums. It's a case of being fans of the concept, not any particular individual. This is also something I go over a lot, but symptomatically, it doesn't get across And finally: "You're a Communist" Not at all. I think business and markets are just great in a lot of areas. But I don't think that is the sum total of civil society. Being against business-worship is hardly the same thing as government-worship. It in the inability to understand this idea which is the ultimate proof that Libertarianism Makes You Stupid. Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-70) not displayed.
#71. To: GrandIsland (#67)
Bucky's expressions remind me of the snake he is ... that being, he is all puff and no adder.
I have to "take" a Gatlin right now ... be back after I flush it down the toilet.
Don't forget to wipe your Tater.
ahhhh ... you, the almighty Trump supporter is getting TWEAKED. Poor little man that you are, I have no pity on you.
That has to be the biggest heartfelt and soul-inspiring expression of love in timeless relevance. With you showing such deep love and admiration, you need to take the next step. Go ahead and arrange an intimate meeting to give him a blow job.
My singular post is nowhere as "loveydovey" as you were with the guy that used the wrong link ... your butt buddy, yukon.
The use old trite and worn out clichés is something you need to treat as the plague. This is a stern avoidance instruction I share with you, knowing however that you will find it difficult to comprehend and follow.
Listen up Peter Puffer Protector. I realize you and Pete swap spit on rainy days, but you'd have no more luck kicking my ass than the old geezer. I've gone toe to toe with street thug killers... and I've managed to get them cuffed up without having to shoot the animals... prior to back up. I doubt there is anyone posting that's a bleeding heart drug addict lover that would have a chance with me. So shut your Pete polisher. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
So you say. But then when did you ever get anything right ...
I ask for no pity ... a donation to the Trump campaign will suffice as a substitute.
We don't need to learn your imagination from a hollywood movie. All you need to do, is walk the little kiddies back and forth across the street from the elementary school to their neighbohood while you carry that big red sign that sez, "STOP."
On second thought, I was thinking of traveling to Haiti and asking a local witch doctor to practice voodoo ... draining your blood dry.
School crossing guards are more important to our society than any insignificant programmer working a company that is leeching contracts from the government.
I always thought of you as a "blood sucker" ... working for a company drawing taxpayer money on government contracts.
The publick declaration of "school cross walk guard" does not fit GI whom carries an IGLOO filled with beer and walks the little kiddies across the street with his fly open. The parents don't like it all. It wouldn't be so bad but GI also has piles of sugar glazed donut crumbs falling from his unshaven face strewn all over the crosswalk. The guy has no self-respect within the publick venue.
You have a cockpit problem.
It's your story, tell it how you see fit. I expect no less from Peter Puffers lover and defender. Just one question... who's the female in your anything goes lifestyle. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
I have led by bad example. We all need to get back to debating the issues and not name calling. Thank You.
Whoa!! Yes you have, Pebbles.
You evaded the draft during Vietnam. You decided to sign up for the fascist police state. pete is a war hero unlike your man, United States Senator Lindsey Graham.
Altogether now: IIIIIIIIIIT'S a beautiful day in the neighborhood, the neighborhood, the neighborhood. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Would you be my? Could you be my? Won't you be my neighbor?
I agree. Hopefully the agenda posters understand that there are more political ideals than their own. I will clean my act up. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
i recommend that you clean off that yukon stuff from your mouth, first.
You can always be counted on to not only ruin a site like LP but degrade a site like LF.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
That is the exact type of comment I was talking about. Just talk issues not insults. Thanks.
You mean to say: argue the points of the thread article. The points of this article by sarge, "the tater peeler" was intended to create insults. "libertarianism" does not force anyone to do anything unlike this fucked upped government that tater loves to thrust upon the taxpayers to pay him tribute for nothing.
reminds who protects love ps quack oversimplified If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
lol ...
Like our future President, I only strike back at those who attack me. And then I double down!!! They stop ... I will be happy to stop.
They are a most discontented group of people ... just a bunch of malcontents misfits seeking temporary shelter from their perceived misfortunes in life. Great to observe and poke fun at ... but not one worthy of serious attention.
Amen. ---- They've always claimed to be the victims... but the truth is, when they were shunned at FreeRepublic, they've decided to be assholes everywhere they hang their hat because they found out that their 6% cult was actually homeless and unwanted everywhere. --- GrandIsland So the fact remains; --- To: Gatlin, who is an anti-constitutionalist, and a prohibitionist--- Y'ALL (#0) Libertarians honor our Constitution, and our republican form of government. Gatlin exemplifies a useless class of humans, those that believe a majority rules, and can decree 'wars' on drugs, guns, or any dangerous object/substance/behaviour, disregarding the clear intent of our Constitution. Feel free to "double down".
self prison love If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
You libertarians easily match you close cousins, the liberals, in placing a relatively low value on morals and sanctity ... but very high values on the use of vulgar language.
It's hard to realistically vote libertarian. I gotta think that the candidate is as dysfunctionally disruptive as Bucky and Huey.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
You are so familiar with identifying yourself in the mirror as a 'conservative' you lost touch with your liberal self, sucking the teat of the US Government doing nothing throughout your entire life. You were brought up in a publick school to salute a flag that does NOTHING but force you into submission working as an airforce potatoe peeler. And you think that is "patriotism" not being able to stand upon your own legs throughout life. You are exactly what you claim I am.
hey idiot, schoolcrosswalkguard, libertarians are not a political party.
I never double down with you, since you will only drag me down to your low level and beat me with experience. Besides, I learned long ago not to carry on a discussion with someone who believes his own lies. Your arguing isn't communication, it's only noise. SILENCE IS THE BEST REPLY TO A FOOL!
Libertarians honor our Constitution, and our republican form of government. I'm gonna vote for Trump, and odds are that most libertarians will. Hell, I don't even know who the Libertarian party candidate is...
I'm voting for Trump just to make Bucky and Deckards head explode.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
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