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The Establishments war on Donald Trump
See other The Establishments war on Donald Trump Articles

Title: Candidates with the muscle could alter GOP convention rules
Source: Associated Press
URL Source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... AULT&CTIME=2016-04-11-13-00-02
Published: Apr 11, 2016
Author: Alan Fram
Post Date: 2016-04-11 13:24:03 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 3221
Comments: 32

With the Republican nominating convention less than 100 days away, the GOP's presidential candidate isn't the only thing still up for grabs. Also in play: The rules by which the nominee will be chosen.

Yet there's one certainty about the party's July gathering in Cleveland: A candidate, an alliance of candidates or party leaders backed by enough delegates will be able to change the procedures any way they want.

Front-runner Donald Trump has 743 of the 1,237 delegates needed to leave the GOP convention as nominee. His closest competitor, Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, is fewer than 200 delegates behind. Yet many top Republicans view both as certain losers who could cost them congressional seats.

A look at the rules governing the convention and how they could be altered to impact the nomination:

----

AS IT STANDS

The GOP's 42 rules cover lots of terrain. They describe how delegates are divided among the 56 states and territories, who gets into the convention hall, who can be nominated, how votes are cast and how disputes are resolved.

These bylaws are temporary. This year's convention will be governed by whichever rules the delegates approve by majority vote when the four-day gathering begins July 18.

The Republican National Committee is already working on rules to present to the convention. But it's the convention delegates - initially a 112-member rules committee, two from each state and territory, then all 2,472 - who'll have final say.

Usually, each convention renews the rules with minor changes and little fanfare. They generally reflect the interests of the presumptive presidential nominee.

---

CLEVELAND, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM

This year, there may not be a presumptive nominee as the convention begins.

It's possible that this will be the GOP's first competitive convention since 1976, with no candidate controlling a majority of delegates. Candidates' campaigns would compete for support for rules advantageous to them, with behind-the-scenes bargaining rampant.

Trump and Cruz could have enough delegates combined to back rules making it virtually impossible for a third rival to emerge. On the other hand, Republicans looking to block the two leaders could seek support for rules making it easier for a savior like House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., who has voiced disinterest, to gallop in and become the nominee.

"The golden rule of conventions is he who has the votes makes the rules," said GOP operative John Yob, author of a book entitled, "Chaos: The Outsider's Guide to a Contested Republican National Convention, 2016."

---

HIDDEN HAZARD

While most delegates must initially vote for the nominee they're elected to represent, they don't have to back that contender's preferred rules package. The candidates personally select only about a quarter of the delegates, leaving many who might secretly prefer a different contender. Campaigns are aggressively recruiting supporters to become delegates.

"Without knowing who the delegates are and who they're sympathetic to," said Josh Putnam, a University of Georgia lecturer and delegate process expert, "trying to assess what the convention is likely to do is next to impossible."

---

NIGHTMARE SCENARIO

The nation's prime-time television viewers could end up watching bitter battles on the convention floor over contested delegates, rules and the party platform before they even get to nominations. Or they could view bored delegates killing time as deals are cut backstage, instead of speeches and choreographed displays of unity aimed at revving up voters. Endless roll calls, another possibility, are TV ratings killers.

"The single worst thing that can happen for Republicans is they reach Thursday and don't have a nominee," said Randy Evans, a Republican National Committee member and convention delegate from Georgia.

That might mean expired hotel reservations, delegates leaving and the convention having to halt and reconvene later. That would be a damaging, cumbersome and time-consuming process.

----

TO BE NOMINATED

Currently, candidates are nominated by submitting petitions showing support by most delegates from eight states and territories.

That was changed for the 2012 convention from a lower bar: A plurality of signatures - more than any competitor - of five states' delegates. Backers of the 2012 presumptive nominee, Mitt Romney, forced that change to prevent time-consuming speeches by supporters of a vanquished contender, then Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas.

That rule could be weakened to allow more competition.

For now, Trump and Cruz appear likely to be the only candidates capable of rounding up majority support from eight states. That's not helpful for Ohio Gov. John Kasich, who is still campaigning, or for a fresh contender like Ryan to arise.

If no one gets a first ballot majority, things could quickly sour for Trump. While various state laws and rules "bind" around 9 in 10 delegates to vote for their candidate in the first round, about 7 in 10 are allowed to support whoever they want on the second ballot, with even more freed up later.

---

OTHER POTENTIAL CHANGES

There could be efforts to:

-Let former contenders like Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., assign their delegates to a remaining candidate, a practice that now varies by state.

-Allow delegates bound to specified candidates to sign nominating petitions for others.

-Permit fresh presidential nominations if no one wins on the first ballot. Currently, voting continues until a winner emerges.

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#1. To: cranky (#0) (Edited)

" Candidates with the muscle could alter GOP convention rules "

paging Don Corleone, paging Don Corleone,

Imagine Karl Rove, Mitch McConnell, and Rince Preibus each waking up with a horses head. Or a dead hooker in their bed, and their fingerprints on the knife, and a stack of photo's 8 x 10, full color, suitable for framing. LOL !

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-04-11   13:43:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: cranky, nolu chan, TooConservative, tpaine (#0)

There could be efforts to:

-Let former contenders like Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., assign their delegates to a remaining candidate, a practice that now varies by state.

Interesting. So some states' Rubio delegates can vote for someone else on the first ballot?

A government strong enough to impose your standards is strong enough to ban them.

ConservingFreedom  posted on  2016-04-11   13:59:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Stoner (#1)

paging Don Corleone, paging Don Corleone

I cannot imagine Trump and Cruz teaming up to force rule changes beneficial to themselves and/or detrimental to the rnc but politics really does makes for strange bedfellows.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2016-04-11   14:01:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: ConservingFreedom (#2)

So some states' Rubio delegates can vote for someone else on the first ballot?

Apparently so.

Rubio's problem will be getting his name on the ballot.

So far, under the present rules, Trump's name is the only name qualified to be on the first ballot.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2016-04-11   14:21:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: cranky (#3)

" I cannot imagine Trump and Cruz teaming up to force rule changes beneficial to themselves and/or detrimental to the rnc but politics really does makes for strange bedfellows. "

True enough.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-04-11   14:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: ConservingFreedom, cranky, TooConservative, tpaine (#2)

Interesting. So some states' Rubio delegates can vote for someone else on the first ballot?

As it stands now, Rubio's and Kasich's name could not be placed in nomination, nor any of the other miscellaneous candidates who picked off a few delegates.

Rule 40b is called the Ron Paul Rule as it was made by Romney supporters to prevent Ron Paul from being eligible to receive any votes.

So, who will have the muscle on the Rules Committee to control what changes are proposed to the body as a whole? Recall that Kasich and Trump just teamed up to shut Cruz out in a state from any delegate on the rules committee and Cruz cried that he was double-crossed by the Kasich campaign.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-04-11   14:55:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: cranky, Stoner (#3)

I cannot imagine Trump and Cruz teaming up

Imagine Trump and Kasich teaming up to win on the first ballot. Trump can promise the VP slot or any cabinet position, e.g., Secretary of the Treasury.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-04-11   14:58:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: nolu chan (#7)

Imagine Trump and Kasich teaming up to win on the first ballot.

Under the current rules, Kasich has zero chance of being on the first ballot.

Only Trump has satisfied the requirements necessary to have his name presented for nomination.

Unless and until, the rules committee changes the rules.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2016-04-11   15:17:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: ConservingFreedom (#2)

Interesting. So some states' Rubio delegates can vote for someone else on the first ballot?

That I'm not sure of. I think no one in the press has looked into it yet.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   15:52:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: cranky (#8)

Only Trump has satisfied the requirements necessary to have his name presented for nomination.

Cruz made his eighth state with Colorado.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   15:53:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: cranky (#4)

As of today according to Rush, Cruz is now eligible with majority wins in 8 states.

jeremiad  posted on  2016-04-11   16:04:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: nolu chan, , ConservingFreedom, cranky, TooConservative (#6)

ConservingFreedom --- Interesting. So some states' Rubio delegates can vote for someone else on the first ballot?

As it stands now, Rubio's and Kasich's name could not be placed in nomination, nor any of the other miscellaneous candidates who picked off a few delegates. - Nolu

Operative words, 'stands now'.

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   16:52:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: tpaine (#12) (Edited)

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

The rules must be confirmed by a majority of delegates, just as the nominee must be. That pesky 1237 number.

While it's possible, it seems unlikely that anyone who has enough delegates (1237) to change the rules actually needs to do so to win the nomination (also with 1237 delegates).

Conceivably, Trump (or Cruz) could fool enough Rubio or Kasich delegates into voting for his desired rule change and then bone them on the deal once the rule was in place.

But I consider that very unlikely. These are party people, not normal voters. They get all misty-eyed about their role as the guardians of the party of Lincoln blah-blah-blah...

They also are very unlikely to enact any rules that lead to a possible thoroughly deadlocked convention. For one thing, they all know they only have hotel rooms for 3 days.

BTW, after a couple of votes, the delegates can make a motion to invoke the rules committee again and demand some new rules. So the rules can change in the middle of the convention, especially if they get deadlocked.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   17:21:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: TooConservative (#13)

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

The rules must be confirmed by a majority tof delegates, just as the nominee must be. That pesky 1237 number. --- While it's possible, it seems unlikely that anyone who has enough delegates (1237) to change the rules actually needs to do so to win the nomination (also with 1237 delegates).

How about delegates that are dissatisfied with being forced to vote for a loosing candidate, according to arcane 'rules'?

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   17:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: tpaine (#14) (Edited)

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

Hmmm...not sure that ever happens.

I can't recall reading about it.

The rules committee makes few real changes. If they do, normally these are well-known in advance so it doesn't get sprung on the convention as a surprise.

So normally the rules committee makes very very few changes (like the one in 2012 to go from a 5-state-majority-of-delegates rule to an 8-state-majority-of-delegates rule so as to keep Ron Paul off the convention ballots and deny him a precious primetime speaking slot). But that was the Romney delegates and they did have well over the 1237 delegates needed for a rule change and for the nomination, no matter what. Most rule changes just before the convention are like that one. After the 17-candidate field we had this year, they might make a change but it would have to also address future conventions that might face 20 candidates (say 20 tycoons running for prez who fought it out all the way to the convention and none had 8 states or 5 states or whatever).

You should expect few rule changes this year and that the convention will accept the proposed rules just like always. I don't know if any convention ever rejected the initial rules from the rules committee. Not that I know of.

No set of rules is perfect or permanent. But a few rules, like the 1237 majority rule, never change. They are de facto permanent rules and almost impossible to change.

The convention delegates would normally go through a number of ballots before enough of them decided they were hopelessly deadlocked and needed to consider another candidate and so they would then make motions to invoke the rules committee to change the convention rules, strike down the 8-state or 5-state requirement and allow the nomination on the floor of anyone they wanted to nominate. Like Paul Ryan or Mitt Romney. Or John Boehner is available, I think. Michael Bloomberg would probably donate $2 billion to the RNC to get his name in there.     : )

But the delegates also know of past conventions going through extensive ballots. In the nineteenth century, they sometimes deadlocked going through 60 or more ballots and then selecting some complete nobody that no one ever heard of before because the major contenders were hated by other factions so much. Sometimes popes have been selected the same way, you know.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   17:59:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: TooConservative (#10)

Cruz made his eighth state with Colorado.

Good for him.

If so, then his name can be put on the ballot without any change in the current rules.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2016-04-11   18:01:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: TooConservative (#15)

While it's possible, it seems unlikely that anyone who has enough delegates (1237) to change the rules actually needs to do so to win the nomination (also with 1237 delegates).

How about delegates that are dissatisfied with being forced to vote for a loosing candidate, according to arcane 'rules'?

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

No set of rules is perfect or permanent. But a few rules, like the 1237 majority rule, never change. They are de facto permanent rules and almost impossible to change.

I'm theorizing they would change the rules about being forced to vote for a failed candidate on the first ballot.

I don't see any reason that this isn't possible.. Do you?

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   18:25:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: tpaine (#17)

How about delegates that are dissatisfied with being forced to vote for a loosing candidate, according to arcane 'rules'?

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

I'm just trying to picture a scenario where that happens and they can get 1237 delegates to go along with it.

By default, they'll simply accept the initial rules committee recommendations as submitted to the convention. They will only change them later if they become deadlocked.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   19:07:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: TooConservative (#18)

How about delegates that are dissatisfied with being forced to vote for a loosing candidate, according to arcane 'rules'?

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

I'm theorizing they would change the rules about being forced to vote for a failed candidate on the first ballot.

I don't see any reason that this isn't possible.. Do you?

I'm just trying to picture a scenario where that happens and they can get 1237 delegates to go along with it.

The delegates to the rules committee could do it before the convention, and it would be accepted by a convention majority.

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   19:20:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: tpaine (#19)

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

Okay. Whatever you say.

I just don't see it happening. This is hardly the first convention where that's happened. In fact, it happens every four years when some delegates arrive at the convention having been selected as delegates for a candidate(s) that have dropped out.

It's not some crisis situation they've never encountered before.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   19:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: TooConservative (#20)

Seems likely they might go for a rule change, before the first ballot.

I'm theorizing they would change the rules about being forced to vote for a failed candidate on the first ballot.

I don't see any reason that this isn't possible.. Do you?

Okay. Whatever you say. -- I just don't see it happening. This is hardly the first convention where that's happened.

Yep, First since bull moose Teddy. But as you say, whatever.. Glad you agree.

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   19:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: tpaine (#21)

I have my own pet theory about a delegation going rogue: South Carolina.

I spelled it out again earlier today, exactly who would lead it, how it would go first into a SC court and then to the convention committee. That would take 50 delegates away from Trump. There have been some legal rumblings from a few of these SC delegates already, like they are preparing to actually do this.

#32

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   20:02:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: tpaine, ConservingFreedom, cranky, TooConservative (#12)

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

For sure, but what rules changes will be offered to the main body depends on who controls the Rules Committee. Then they have to get it passed by the main body.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-04-11   20:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: nolu chan (#23)

The members of the main committee are being tight-lipped but a few have spoken in public, saying they want to see as few changes to the rules as possible. They emphasized this repeatedly. No radical changes. There was an institutional cast to their remarks, like they've been boning up on convention history and how not to shoot yourself in the foot by writing stupid rules.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   20:55:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: nolu chan (#23) (Edited)

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

For sure, but what rules changes will be offered to the main body depends on who controls the Rules Committee. Then they have to get it passed by the main body.

Agreed. But some here seem to believe that Trump cannot possibly get control of the rules committee.

-- Or, failing that, mount a serious challenge to the GOPs apparent lock on those rules.

I think they're underestimating the Trump movement, and the American peoples will to rid itself of stupid party political rules.

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   21:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: TooConservative, y'all (#24)

There was an institutional cast to their remarks, like they've been boning up on convention history and how not to shoot yourself in the foot by writing stupid rules.

That's a howler, seeing that stupid rules are the issue.

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   21:05:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: tpaine (#25)

Agreed. But some here seem to believe that Trump cannot possibly get control of the rules committee.

As I said before, if Trump (or Cruz) has the 1237 delegates needed to vote in new rules, they already have the 1237 votes needed to win the nomination. So why rile people up with rule changes if they can just win the nomination on the first ballot, right after the convention votes to affirm the rules set forth by the rules committee?

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   21:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: TooConservative, y'all JiMi (#27)

We must not forget that the rules can be changed BEFORE the first ballot, -- and probably will be...

nolu --- For sure, but what rules changes will be offered to the main body depends on who controls the Rules Committee. Then they have to get it passed by the main body.

Agreed. But some here seem to believe that Trump cannot possibly get control of the rules committee.

As I said before, if Trump (or Cruz) has the 1237 delegates needed to vote in new rules, they already have the 1237 votes needed to win the nomination.

Control of the rules committee is apparently NOT guaranteed by votes.

So why rile people up with rule changes if they can just win the nomination on the first ballot, right after the convention votes to affirm the rules set forth by the rules committee?

Because the rules committee can arbitrarily change the rules to ensure that Trump cannot get a majority.

As I've said before, Catch 22...

tpaine  posted on  2016-04-11   21:31:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#28)

Because the rules committee can arbitrarily change the rules to ensure that Trump cannot get a majority.

Not as easily as you indicate.

I have to wonder if you know any party people. They are an odd tribe.

Let me give an example. In all the posts I've read here and elsewhere, no one ever mentions the 24 Republican seats in the Senate that the GOP is defending, trying to hold on to its 54 seat majority.

To all of you, those don't even enter your calculations.

But real party people, the Pod People of the GOP who attend one dusty district convention after boring county convention after tedious state convention year after year, are all thinking about those races as much as they think about who the party's nominee will be. And a lot of other races they are concerned with winning in their state. And they rightly tie the party's nominee to the fate of all those downballot candidates. In some cases, the delegates themselves are those downballot candidates in their states.

If you don't understand this about the Pod People, you simply don't understand the GOP delegates and their motives. They are not your average voter at all. And they never will be.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-11   21:47:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: tpaine (#25)

Agreed. But some here seem to believe that Trump cannot possibly get control of the rules committee.

Eliminating Rule 40b would be near suicide for Trump and Cruz, unless Trump has 1237 for the first ballot. It would be in their common interest to prevent such a party move. Over 80% of the delegates would nominally represent Trump/Cruz. If the party were able to influence the delegates to eliminate Rule 40b, it would be obviously be against the interest of candidate they represent.

Trump has a very loud and prominent bully pulpit. Whatever move they make will be made very, very public. Reince and the party will take a very public and embarrassing beatdown. Doing something is not the same as getting away with it.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-04-12   1:52:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: nolu chan (#30)

Reince and the party will take a very public and embarrassing beatdown.

Reince doesn't pick the members of the committee(s) but he does get to appoint the chairmen of those committees. And that is all the influence he has.

Tooconservative  posted on  2016-04-12   5:33:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: jeremiad (#11)

As of today according to Rush, Cruz is now eligible with majority wins in 8 states.

I guess as long as Cruz gets a 'certificate evidencing the affirmative written support of the required number of permanently seated delegates' from Co, no vote is necessary.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't

cranky  posted on  2016-04-12   8:42:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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