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Title: Corporate America Is Just 7 States Short of a Constitutional Convention
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://inthesetimes.com/article/189 ... rate-constitutional-convention
Published: Mar 14, 2016
Author: SIMON DAVIS-COHEN
Post Date: 2016-03-14 18:16:47 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 10390
Comments: 89

In February, Republican presidential hopeful Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) signed on to a call for a constitutional convention to help defeat “the Washington cartel [that] has put special interest spending ahead of the American people.”

Cruz, along with fellow Republican presidential aspirants Sen. Marco Rubio (Fla.) and Gov. John Kasich (Ohio), has endorsed an old conservative goal of a Constitutional amendment to mandate a balanced federal budget. The idea sounds fanciful, but free-market ideologues associated with the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a secretive group of right-wing legislators and their corporate allies, are close to pulling off a coup that could devastate the economy, which is just emerging from a recession. Their scheme could leave Americans reeling for generations. A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy during an economic depression by increasing the national debt. (Since 1970, the United States has had a balanced budget in only four years: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.)

Article V of the Constitution lays out two routes for changing the law of the land: An amendment can be proposed by Congress or by a constitutional convention that is convened by two-thirds of the states (34). Either way, three-fourths of the states (38) have to ratify it. Previously, changes to the country’s founding document have been achieved by the first process. But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the twothirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

The ALEC-affiliated Balanced Budget Amendment Task Force (BBATF), which proffered the pledge signed by Cruz, is hoping to meet that 34-state threshold by July 4. BBATF is one player in an astroturf movement backed by the billionaire Koch brothers and embraced by right-wing state legislators.

A balanced budget amendment has long been a holy grail for the Right since the 1930s. In the 1980s, conservatives made a push for a balanced budget constitutional convention and, 20 years later, the idea was resurrected as part of the Tea Party platform. That’s when BBATF was formed to carry the movement forward. With 16 resolutions held over from the previous wave of conservative activism, BBATF has since passed resolutions in Alabama (2011), New Hampshire (2012), Ohio (2013), Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Michigan, Louisiana (2014), South Dakota, North Dakota and Utah (2015), bringing the total to 27. This year, BBATF is targeting 13 states: Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. In six of these states Republicans control both legislative bodies and the governorship, making passage a real possibility and leaving BBATF one state shy of the magic 34.

Domino effect While the BBATF’s 27 resolutions are tied specifically to the balanced budget amendment, a group called Citizens for Self-Governance launched a project called Convention of States, whose proposal for a constitutional convention has also been adopted by ALEC as a model policy. Convention of States has passed resolutions calling for a convention in Florida, Georgia (2014), Alabama, Arkansas (2015) and Tennessee (2016). Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution.

Both BBATF and Convention of States have struggled to address worries of a runaway convention. What would stop it from turning out like the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, which led to the scrapping of the Articles of Confederation and the drafting of an entirely new U.S. Constitution?

To address these concerns, a group called Compact for America, which has passed resolutions in Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi and North Dakota, has proposed that states combine their calls for a constitutional convention with the final ratification process. This would mean states attending the convention would propose the amendment and ratify it in one fell swoop, which would require the 38 states needed for ratification under Article V, not just the 34 needed to call a convention.

Convention of States and BBATF have tried to quell fears of a runaway convention by saying the convention would be bound by the subject matter of the resolutions, and that the convention only has the power to propose amendments, which then must be ratified by the required 38 states.

That the subject matter of the resolutions will prevent a runaway convention may make sense in reference to the BBATF, whose resolutions focus specifically on the balanced budget amendment, but when applied to the Convention of States’ agenda, the argument fails, as the subject of their resolutions includes broad language to curb the power and jurisdiction of the federal government. Convention of States spokesman Michael Farris has written that, “It is relatively certain that there would be at least a few amendments proposed, perhaps as many as 10 to 12.” In other words, if Convention of States has its way, there could well be a runaway convention.

Within striking distance Arn Pearson at the Center for Media and Democracy, a watchdog group based in Madison, Wisc., is closely tracking the movement. He describes the campaign for a constitutional convention as “a very live threat.” “If between the groups they get to 34 states,” he says, “there is really nothing preventing them from aggregating those calls even if they’re not identical, and pushing for a convention.”

Another uncertainty, Pearson notes, is the controversy over whether the 16 resolutions left over from the effort in the 1980s can still be counted. There is no precedent to lean on. Pro-convention advocates maintain that Congress, which is tasked with processing the states’ applications, may not meddle with the process. If a state doesn’t want a convention, they argue, it can rescind its application. Pearson suspects the Supreme Court would get involved.

“There are a lot of different parts of the Koch machine pulling on this oar,” says Pearson, “from their think tanks up through their elected officials, they’re pushing on it. They’re pushing on it hard.” And, given how red BBATF’s 2016 target states are, says Pearson, “it’s within striking distance. If [ALEC and the Koch brothers] get a convention,” says Pearson, “they get to lock in their conservative supply-side policies for the next generation or more. That’s where they’re going.”

The Kochs and company, with their gridlock of Washington, have bred a type of discontent that has made once unimaginable change possible.

Tugging on citizen discontent, Convention of States’ propaganda highlights the 2013 government shutdown, creeping NSA surveillance, Gallup polls showing Americans’ dissatisfaction with “government” and tales of federal bureaucratic waste.

But such a convention is not the tonic to satiate this discontent. Democratic control is what the American people yearn for, but that is not what the convention would offer.

Maybe the alternative is the revolution Bernie Sanders is envisioning: Electing insurgent candidates to Congress, state and local office; strengthening and expanding direct democratic institutions like the ballot initiative process; making constitutional changes that elevate democratic decisions above corporate personhood; and building a movement that engages the thousands of communities where democratic governance has been all but quashed by ALEC-endorsed legal doctrine and legislation.

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#49. To: tpaine (#45)

Not true. Even back then a madman could have used a black powder bomb to kill a tavern of people.

Or even easier,fire. The taverns were mostly made from wood,and had straw or sawdust on the floors.

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2016-03-17   17:31:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Vicomte13, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#47)

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

nolu chan -- abandons the conversation ...

Vicomte13 -- I am more than happy to abandon a pointless conversation that has become abusive.

The abuse of our Constitution, -- claiming that our rights can be amended away, is not invalidated by using personal observations..

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-18   12:08:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: tpaine (#50)

This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

They can be, they have been, they are being, and they will continue to be.

"I disbelieve!" is a player move in Dungeons and Dragons. Sometimes it works, in that game, to dispel illusions. It doesn't work in real life, though.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   12:46:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

vicomte13 -- I am more than happy to abandon a pointless conversation that has become abusive.

The abuse of our Constitution, -- claiming that our rights can be amended away, is not invalidated by using personal observations. --- And yes, -- after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away.

This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

They can be, they have been, they are being, and they will continue to be.

Yep, it's a fact that people like you advocate ignoring our Constitution. --What you hope to gain is best left to mental health professionals..

"I disbelieve!" is a player move in Dungeons and Dragons. Sometimes it works, in that game, to dispel illusions. It doesn't work in real life, though.

Experts in dungeons and dragons have an illusionist view of real life. --- Perhaps you should stick to playing games.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-18   13:27:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: tpaine (#52)

Perhaps you should stick to playing games.

Like you do with your "Fantasy Island" view of the Constitution.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   14:21:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: tpaine (#40)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

The Constitution does not recognize any such thing as "unalienable" rights. It recognized slavery, and does recognize capital punishment.

Upon certification of ratification, an amendment is part of the Constitution. It does whatever it says it does, and cannot void the entire document.

The Declaration of Independence was a political document, a revolutionary call to arms, and has never asserted any force of law.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-18   16:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, Stoner (#44)

Some original states did not adopt the common law in their constitution, but all, in their constitution or by statute, adopted such of the English common law that did not conflict with the Constitution or some stated exceptions.

The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated.

The "right to keep and bear arms" existed in the colonies, was brought forth into the states before the union, and was protected by the 2nd Amendment. The right which existed in the colonies came from the English common law. The Framers saw no need to explain to themselves what that right to keep and bear arms was.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-18   16:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nolu chan (#55)

Yes, gun rights are always fraught.

My own view is that of a political horsetrader. I simply do not care about the 2nd Amendment or gay marriage either way. I'm completely indifferent to both.

And THEREFORE these are cards in my hand that I am willing to trade for things that I DO care about. I care most of all about foreign/military policy, because that is the optional expense that either unburdens or crushes a nation's economy.

I am such an enthusiastic supporter of Trump because of his stance on Russia. He is the only one who says the right thing on it.

After that, I think that the social safety net is the most crucial thing. This is a practical decision. If we have good trade and industrial and tax policy, we don't need much of a social safety net because we will be prosperous, but if we have crappy policies, the social safety net mitigates the damage.

On reflection, I guess that the social safety net also overcomes bad foreign policy, so maybe I would move it to number one.

My third position is a social one: pro-life. But to have pro-life policies you have got to have a strong social safety net.

I'm willing to horsetrade 2nd Amendment, gay marriage, Israel and various tax and trade policies to ensure a strong social safety net, good foreign policy and protection of babies.

Most people are fanatics for their issues. So a 2nd Amendment fanatic can find an ally in me, if he'll support a strong social safety net.

The problem with contemporary conservatives like Cruz is that they are maximalists on every position, thinking themselvecs "uncompromising". But that means that they offer me nothing - I'm not going to get good foreign policy, or a good safety net, and I know I'm not going to get good abortion policy out of them because I never do. So they offer nothing.

And therefore marginalize themselves, but think of that as virtue.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   17:22:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: nolu chan (#55)

" The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

BINGO !!!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-18   17:33:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: nolu chan (#54)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

And yes, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

The Constitution does not recognize any such thing as "unalienable" rights. It recognized slavery, and does recognize capital punishment.

You're repeating yourself, not debating the issue..

Upon certification of ratification, an amendment is part of the Constitution. It does whatever it says it does, and cannot void the entire document.

According to you, we can then amend away our basic rights, which in effect, would nullify the basic principles behind the document. ---- This is unacceptable logic. --- Try again?

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-19   16:45:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Stoner, Vicente13, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#57)

nolu chan (#55) --- " The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

BINGO !!! -- Stoner

Chan is partially correct, but only as far as he went.

The 14th Amendment prohibited the States from infringing on our basic rights.

-- For some strange reason, both Chan and Vicomte think that States can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights..

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-19   16:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: tpaine (#59)

" For some strange reason, both Chan and Vicomte think that States can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights.. "

Well, me & Sam Colt are never going to agree that ANYONE can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-19   17:16:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: tpaine (#59)

Well, I agree with Chan; " nolu chan (#55) --- " The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

Again, Col Sam Colt, Misters Smith & Wesson, John Browning, and Eugene Stoner, et al are on my side of this argument!!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-19   17:22:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Stoner, Y'ALL (#61)

Well, I agree with Chan; " nolu chan (#55) --- " The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

Well, our Constitution does NOT agree with Chan; --- Every official of the Federal or State/local governments are pledged to protect that right, and it prohibits the Federal/State/ local governments from infringing upon it.

We agree, --- " It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated."

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-20   11:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: tpaine (#58)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

Continuing to prove that tpaine on his imaginary law is like entering the Twilight Zone. A constitutional amendment cannot void the Constitution.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-20   14:22:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: tpaine, Stoner, Vicente13 (#59)

The 14th Amendment prohibited the States from infringing on our basic rights.

The 14th actually says, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;...."

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-20   15:23:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Vicomte13, nolu chan (#44) (Edited)

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

That certainly is an interesting perspective on the Framer's intent in regard to the 2nd Amendment that you have there.

But it's a cinch that the Framers were to a man innovators, and I'm sure that they recognized that technology would not, could not stand still.

We should keep in mind that the right protected in the 2nd Amendment was not enshrined there to protect deer hunters, collectors or target shooters.

It was put there to protect the "natural right of resistance and self- preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression" (Blackstone).

If the power of the arms an individual may bear has been greatly increased in the intervening two centuries, the power of a government to impose oppression has been magnified to an even greater degree.

TPB have APC's, tanks, choppers, sonic weapons, microwave weapons, laser beams, and chemical agents at their disposal should they ever deem it necessary to enforce their will on us by us of force.

What they have in stock dwarfs the auto-loader in the bedroom closet in range and lethality by orders of magnitude. The modern gun owner does not overstep the scope of his natural right in the type of arms that he owns and bears.

He is merely playing catch-up.

randge  posted on  2016-03-20   16:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: randge, Vicomte13, nolu chan (#65)

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-20   17:12:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: nolu chan (#64)

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

The 14th actually says, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;....

The 14th specifically says that -- "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

Echoing the words of the Declaration, on our unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Poor nolu FAILS logic once again.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-20   17:24:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: SOSO, All (#66)

So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

That's an interesting point. I remember posts on a thread on one of these forums years back where a poster cited distinctions in the law between arms that may be borne and munitions like the howitzers cannons, mortars, and war ships that you mention that cannot.

I haven't been able to locate those sources, but I'd be interested to see them if anybody else here might know authors or text that relate to this nomenclature & the 2nd A. This issue pops up in these discussion from time to time.

randge  posted on  2016-03-20   17:32:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: randge, Y'ALL (#68)

SOSO, --- So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

That's an interesting point. I remember posts on a thread on one of these forums years back where a poster cited distinctions in the law between arms that may be borne and munitions like the howitzers cannons, mortars, and war ships that you mention that cannot.

I haven't been able to locate those sources, but I'd be interested to see them if anybody else here might know authors or text that relate to this nomenclature & the 2nd A. This issue pops up in these discussion from time to time. --- randge

We had many threads on free republic, back in the day, on those subjects. No doubt they're still available over there.

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, etc. -- just as it should.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-20   17:58:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: tpaine (#69)

he consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, etc. -- just as it should.

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-20   20:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

We had many threads on free republic, back in the day, on those subjects. No doubt they're still available over there.

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, even nuclear materials (private power plants anyone?). -- just as it should.

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   13:12:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: tpaine (#71) (Edited)

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, even nuclear materials (private power plants anyone?). -- just as it should.

The "consensus" favors the constitutional right to have personal nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?

People cook off and kill themselves and those around them all the time, tens of thousands do it every year. That's just great. Some guy is distressed with the world, and commits a murder-suicide that takes out five city blocks.

That "consensus" turns the Constitution into a suicide pact.

There will be no Second Amendment left if people who are in favor of gun rights cannot draw a line, principled or unprincipled but practical, that rules nuclear, biological and chemical weapons off limits. If "the right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" means that individuals have the constitutional right to own nukes, keep bioweps and stockpile mustard gas, then it's a right we have to abolish.

Every gun advocate has to be able to answer the question regarding nuclear, biological and chemical weapons ownership with "of course not!", and needs to be able to explain why "the right to keep and bear arms" is NOT infringed by laws absolutely prohibiting any individuals from buying or making and holding any such weapons.

Weapons of mass destruction are the Achilles' heel in the logic of the 2nd Amendment, and gun rights advocates have to be able to clearly, forcefully and unequivocally make it clear that "arms" means GUNS, and does NOT mean any WMD.

Otherwise, you're going to lose your guns rights too. Because anybody who believes that people have the right to personal nukes, anthrax and nerve gas is a nut.

You can't just talk around the issue. You have to face it square and say, unequivocally and absolutely, that the 2nd Amendment DOES NOT APPLY to nuclear, biological and chemical arms. That THOSE arms are not, and never were, contemplated by the founders, and that THEREFORE the right to keep and bear arms in the 2nd Amendment does not mean THOSE arms, in any way.

If you can't say that, then you're not going to be able to sustain your right to keep a pistol either, over time.

You have to face the real world with realism, and there is only one correct answer to the 2nd Amendment's applicability to nukes. And that answer is NO.

YOU, the gun advocates, have GOT TO devise the argument, the reasoning, to get there, because the people who want to take your guns are going to keep on beating you over the head with nukes and bombs and chemical weapons, and if you're answer is "Yep, that's part of the right", then you lose the right entirely.

The right to keep and bear arms MUST BE INFRINGED, if "arms" includes nuclear weapons. So, if you don't WANT it infringed, YOU have to limit "the right to keep and bear arms" to guns.

I was helping you by giving the weapons of 1789 as a starting point. You might be able to move forward to something more effective than those old weapons, but you'll have a basis to do it. That can get you to personal gun ownership rights.

But if you START with the premises that the "consensus" of gun nuts is that they have the right to keep and bear nukeweps and nerve gas, well, that's crazy, and crazy does not win.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-21   13:29:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Vicomte13 (#72)

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb.

The right to keep and bear arms MUST BE INFRINGED, if "arms" includes nuclear weapons. So, if you don't WANT it infringed, YOU have to limit "the right to keep and bear arms" to guns.

Impossible. -- Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic.

But if you START with the premises that the "consensus" of gun nuts is that they have the right to keep and bear nukeweps and nerve gas, well, that's crazy, and crazy does not win.

Your crazy hype on the subject is noted, Mrs Brady.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   13:59:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: tpaine (#73)

I am speaking about nuclear WEAPONS, not nuclear materials. Biological WEAPONS, not biological materials. Chemical WEAPONS: nerve gas bombs, for example.

Do you assert that the right to keep and bear arms contained in the Second Amendment means that a very rich person, say Donald Trump, has the right under the Constitution to purchase or assemble, and keep, an atomic bomb, or mustard gas mortar shells, or shells that are filled with weaponized anthrax?

Yes or no?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-21   18:24:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Vicomte13 (#74) (Edited)

Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic.

Do you assert that the right to keep and bear arms contained in the Second Amendment means that a very rich person, say Donald Trump, has the right under the Constitution to purchase or assemble, and keep, an atomic bomb, or mustard gas mortar shells, or shells that are filled with weaponized anthrax?

Read much?

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb, as per our Constitution.

--- Other nations would probably object, but our Constitution doesn't.

It's quite obvious your want to change the Constitution, and abolish individual rights.. -- Get over your insanity, or go elsewhere.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   21:37:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: tpaine (#75)

ead much?

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb, as per our Constitution.

--- Other nations would probably object, but our Constitution doesn't.

It's quite obvious your want to change the Constitution, and abolish individual rights.. -- Get over your insanity, or go elsewhere.

The problem with nukeweps, bioweps and chemical weps is not primarily storage, although yes, that certainly is also a problem.

The problem with them is the ability to inflict mass casualties, start an epidemic, poison an area of land for decades to come.

Even in the military there is two person control over all of this. Why? Because military people, just like every other kind of people, go nuts and commit murder suicides. Individiual citizens can never, ever, ever have the power in their own hands to take out a whole city because the neighbor's German shepherd starts talking to them. It's crazy to even think it.

When the Founders wrote that the write to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, they were not lunatics. They never imagined weapons of the power and reach of NBC weapons.

But even if they did, it's irrelevant. There can be no individual right to possess such weapons. None. It's not a matter of storage. It's a matter of people cooking off and using them. Within the military there are layers of control function. In individual homes, there is nothing but the mind of the individual, however diseased.

I note how you try to wriggle away from answering the question directly. I will ask it directly again, as a yes or no question, and then I will teach you something..

The question is very simple and very direct: Does the 2nd Amendment protect an individual's right to keep a thermonuclear weapon? Yes or no?

I am telling you the truth: the answer to that question that every gun lover in the world has to be able to give, without hesitation, is NO. If you can't answer NO, then you're a nut, and you've lost any argument you might have about 2nd Amendment rights.

You guys who are PROPONENTS of the 2nd Amendment have to have the presence of mind to be able to draw a clear, sharp line that says that WMDs do not fall within the "right to keep and bear arms".

The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and the argument that individuals have any right whatever to possess any such weapons, let alone bear them, is an argument that any nut with the cash anywhere has the right to hold whole cities hostage. It's insane.

The 2nd Amendment CANNOT be read to mean that. You're reading it to mean that, and read absolutely literally, it DOES mean that. So it's up to YOU, the gun rights advocates, to develop a theory as to why it DOESN'T mean that, that it means guns, not mustard gas.

YOU have to develop that argument, because if you don't, then you are on the crazy nut fringe and more responsible people will step in and impose THEIR rule, which certainly won't allow nukes, but which won't allow any other guns either other than perhaps registered hunting rifles and shotguns.

If you leave an intellectual vacuum and refuse to answer the question, playing around with stupid ideas like "the question is STORAGE", then you lose the public and you lose your guns rights.

The way you've gone on belittling me is why you're losing your guns rights. You have lost so many of them and you will keep on losing if you take a ridiculous maximal position that doesn't carve out a huge exception for weapons of mass destruction.

Now, you're right that the language of the 2nd Amendment does not, in fact, place any such limit. So you have to read one into it, and that reading in has to come from YOUR side. If you take the absolutist position, as you have, as many do, or refuse to answer the question, you're not a responsible person and people stop listening to you. Reasonable people wall you off and go about deciding what to do.

Now, I tried to lay down a set of principles above to HELP the gun rights movement steer out of this minefield.

You START with the weapons of 1787. THOSE that are arms (and a barrel of black powder is not an arm) are protected, because that's what the Founders had in mind. You rule out all WMD - obviously the Founders did not have THAT in mind.

And then the sole question becomes where the line is drawn at repeat fire weapons - automatic and semi-automatic. Are those more like WMD, or are they more like single shot black powder weapons? That is where you can fight a reasonable fight, as long as you come down on the side that machine guns are more like WMD and people can't generally keep and bear them, while semi-automatics are a divided field. Revolvers came early and were accepted. Fine. Modern semi-auto "assault weapons" - those are on the cusp, and that's where you fight.

By taking this approach, you secure the principle that there is a CLASS of weapons that are very clearly "arms" that can be kept and borne by the citizenry WITHOUT RESTRICTION. Single shot black powder and swords are certainly there. Revolvers are almost certainly there. The line of where the absolute right ends is fuzzy, and is located somewhere in the world of semi-automatics, because the Founders had no concept of mass casualty weapons, so the original intent of that 2nd Amendment was not that people can arm up with WMD and mass effect weapons. So WMD and machine guns are always out. Black powder single shot are always win. And the boundary of the right lies in semiautomatics.

That protects a lot of rights that are not currently protected by the actual state of the law, and it saves YOU and your fellow gun nuts the insanity of saying that people have the Constitutional right to possess nukes in their basement. Yes, read literally the 2nd Amendment says that. So therefore no, it cannot be read literally, because that's suicide. Here, original intent really helps, because it naturally limits the weapons to single shot guns. One than can take things forward to some reasonable advancements - revolvers, certainly, breech-loading modern gunpowder weapons, sure.

And the line of contention simply becomes where to draw it in the semi-autos. Registration and the like of black powder goes by the wayside. We end up focusing on a class of weapons that were outside the actual "arms" of 1789, but not so far outside that the Founders would have been likely to exclude them. But a nuke? Come on. If they existed at the time of the Founders, the Founders would not have written the 2md Amendment as broadly as they did.

Unfortunately for your cause, there are a lot of gun nuts who take your position - one of absolute rights. And you can't see your way clear to except nukes, so you simply assert "all the way through the nukes".

But even you knows that's crazy, which is why you won't answer the question directly, and try to make it about the form of my question. That dog don't hunt. It's not just ME who asks about nukes. It's every sane person, and you cannot hold onto your rights if you talk to everybody as though they are all insane. Your 2nd Amendment will not defend itself, and your position is certainly not going to defend it

I've given you a position that will help you to devise a reasonable defense. If you take unreasonable extremes like "A chicken in every pot and a nuke in every basement", you're going to lose your right to keep and bear arms, because your adversaries point at that and say "See, these people are NUTS. And nuts should not be walking around with guns."

And over time, given all of the mass murder-suicide events, the public has more and more turned against you and the 2nd Amendment.

To save it, you have to come out of the crazy swamp, acknowledge that we're not talking about nukes and mustard gas and machine guns here, and explain why. Then you are back in the world of reason.

Saying things like "We need the biggest weapons because the government has them and how are we going to fight the government without them" doesn't help your case at all. YOU may think that the 2nd Amendment is all about having the "right to rebel", and maybe that's what the Founders had in mind. But we had a Civil War. People already rebelled. A million people died, and they failed to achieve their independence. The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

Unloading another screed at me because you don't like what I say doesn't do anything for you. You have to teach yourself to state where the line is in the Second Amendment, because if you refuse to do that, other people will draw the line, and they will draw it at zero. It's already happening, and it will continue to, unless folks like you stop being nuts and start to reasonably address the issues that the gun controllers bring up.

If your idea of the 2nd Amendment means individuals have the right to keep and bear nukes, you're going to end up with no guns at all. You have to come off that position. It's obviously nuts.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   7:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. --- Materials that can be easily configured to become weapons/arms.. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic - lest we start down the road to serfdom.

Saying things like "We need the biggest weapons because the government has them and how are we going to fight the government without them" doesn't help your case at all.

Straw man argument. Reasonable regulations about using dangerous weapons grade materials have been written. Lots of unreasonable, unconstitutional prohibitions on 'assault weapons' too.

YOU may think that the 2nd Amendment is all about having the "right to rebel", and maybe that's what the Founders had in mind.

And now you're gonna imply they didn't?

But we had a Civil War. People already rebelled. A million people died, and they failed to achieve their independence.

And if only we had gun control before the civil war, -- it could have been avoided? ---- Weird argument you've made.

The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

There you go again, imagining that one part of the American populace can issue permits to their neighbors. -- That's not constitutional...

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22   13:19:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: tpaine (#77)

Hypothetical: I've got $10 billion. The Russians are willing to sell me a tactical nuke, fully assembled, for $3 billion.

Should I be able to buy a tactical nuke and keep it?

Yes or no.

I am not speaking of "nuclear material". I am speaking of a fully assembled, operational thermonuclear device that I could detonate, if I chose.

Does the Second Amendment guarantee my right to buy and hold that thermonculear weapon, yes or no?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   13:45:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

There you go again, imagining that one part of the American populace can issue permits to their neighbors. -- That's not constitutional...

Hypothetical: I've got $10 billion. The Russians are willing to sell me a tactical nuke, fully assembled, for $3 billion. -- Should I be able to buy a tactical nuke and keep it?

If you take the other 7 billion and use it to buy Pitcairn island, where you'll keep, and maintain, (unfired) your nuke, - it's fine with me, and our Constitution. Hypothetically.

Anybody living downwind may send in a hit squad, however.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22   14:18:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: tpaine (#79)

So, your answer is yes. Yes, you have a constitutional right to have a nuclear weapon.

Well, with that we can say Sayonnara to the topic. That position is insane. If THAT is what the 2nd Amendment really means, then we must disregard it, because it's suicidal.

And really, that's what you see happening. BECAUSE your position is absolute, and the absolute position results in something crazy and suicidal, your voice is cancelled out. You don't get to participate in the line- drawing exercise of what the limits of the Second Amendment really are, because your position that there ARE no limits WHATEVER is insane, and nobody is going to invite the crazy to the table to discuss it.

Your inability to set any boundaries cuts your political balls off and leaves you and your cause neutered. You don't get an input to the most important issue of all, to you, because your belief about it is so unhinged that nobody will give it time of the day.

What that means, in turn, is that the boundaries of the Second Amendment are drawn, and redrawn, by people who don't care as much for it, because the people who are most fanatical about it are so fanatical that their position is fantastical and insane. Personal nuclear weapons, a right, guaranteed by the Constitution? That's nuts. Insane.

So what's left, then? The people who hate guns and are trying to take them are largely successful, more and more. The people who are relatively neutral on the matter, such as me, end up drawing the lines. Machine guns no. Single shot yes. Semi-auto...maybe.

And you're not even invited into the room, because you think people have the right to have NUKES, for God's sake!

The Second Amendment needs better advocates than you, because you are killing it with an intransigent, crazy stance.

Are all Second Amendment fans nuts like you? No wonder gun rights keep shrinking!

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   14:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Vicomte13 (#80)

There you go again, imagining that one part of the American populace have the right to issue weapons permits to their neighbors. -- That's not constitutional...

Hypothetical: I've got $10 billion. The Russians are willing to sell me a tactical nuke, fully assembled, for $3 billion. -- Should I be able to buy a tactical nuke and keep it?

If you take the other 7 billion and use it to buy Pitcairn island, where you'll keep, and maintain, (unfired) your nuke, - it's fine with me, and our Constitution. --- - Hypothetically.

Anybody living downwind may send in a hit squad, however, on the basis that you're insane.

--- the boundaries of the Second Amendment are drawn, and redrawn, by people who don't care as much for it, because the people who are most fanatical about it are so fanatical that their position is fantastical and insane. Personal nuclear weapons, a right, guaranteed by the Constitution? That's nuts. Insane.

Your own insanity about the gun issue, and your failed 'hypothetical' are noted.

So what's left, then? The people who hate guns and are trying to take them are largely successful, more and more. The people who are relatively neutral on the matter, such as me, end up drawing the lines. Machine guns no. Single shot yes. Semi-auto...maybe

Well at least you're honest about your insanity. -- But rest assured, people such as you (neutral? bullshit) will NEVER get to 'draw the line' on our right to bear arms.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22   16:47:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: randge, Vicomte13 (#65)

If the power of the arms an individual may bear has been greatly increased in the intervening two centuries, the power of a government to impose oppression has been magnified to an even greater degree.

TPB have APC's, tanks, choppers, sonic weapons, microwave weapons, laser beams, and chemical agents at their disposal should they ever deem it necessary to enforce their will on us by us of force.

Your observations are accurate but they do not reflect the major change. By design, there was no large Federal standing army, and the combined forces of the state militias were intended to be able to whip the ass of the intentionally small Federal standing army. In 1789, or in 1860, they could have done just that.

The Civil War did not so much preserve the union that then existed, but served to implement a second revolution, drastically altering the nature of the union. Thereafter, there has been a large Federal standing army. The Federal government broke loose from its initial restraints and converted the state militias to National Guard units. The Federal government can declare an emergency and federalize the National Guard. A draft (conscription) was implemented and even when the militia was still the state militia, it's members could be directly conscripted into Federal service.

It is impossible to arm the citizenry to effectively resist the might of the Federal government, if it brings its full power to bear. It would require a refusal of the armed forces to carry out orders.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-22   17:09:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: tpaine (#67)

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

Dur process is whatever process is provided for by law. With due process, the government may constitutionally take away your supposedly "unalienable" right to live, and take away any right to which you may attach the claim of being unalienable.

The Declaration of Independence was a political call to arms. It was never the law of anyplace.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-22   17:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: SOSO, randge, Vicomte13 (#66)

So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

No. They referred to the common law right that the people brought with them into their new union, and it was that right which the people restricted the Federal government from infringing upon.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Such is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-22   17:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: nolu chan, randge, Vicomte13 (#84)

that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law.

So a private citizen cannot own a tank or a bazooka or a hand grenade or a mortar? Can a private citizen own a gas mask for self defense?

Please cite the applicable U.S. law that governs your answer.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-22   17:33:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: nolu chan (#83)

nolu chan (#64), erroneously claims: --

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

The 14th actually says, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;....

The 14th specifically says that -- "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

Which echoes the words of the Declaration, on our unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Poor nolu FAILS logic once again.

Due process is whatever process is provided for by law.

Due process is only valid if it conforms to constitutional law. Government passes quite a bit of unconstitutional law.

With due process, the government may constitutionally take away your supposedly "unalienable" right to live, and take away any right to which you may attach the claim of being unalienable.

No, not constitutionally. Many so-called laws are unconstitutional.

The Declaration of Independence was a political call to arms. It was never the law of anyplace.

No one ever claimed it was law. -- You fail logic again..

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22   19:02:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: SOSO (#85)

I don't know where the courts and legislatures and political pressures have drawn the lines, exactly, on tanks, bazookas, mortars and hand-grenades. It probably varies by state.

I would imagine that one can own a tank, but not the ammunition to shoot its cannon. One can probably own a bazooka without its firing pin, but one cannot own bazooka shells: too destructive. Ditto for a mortar. I'm pretty sure hand-grenades that can explode are right out.

Ownership of gas masks doesn't seem offensive, but I know that in many places the ownership of a bulletproof vest is illegal.

Certainly nukes, chemweps and bioweps are outside of the "right to keep and bear arms", because they have to be as a matter of realistic logic.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   22:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Vicomte13 (#87)

I don't know where the courts and legislatures and political pressures have drawn the lines, exactly, on tanks, bazookas, mortars and hand-grenades. It probably varies by state.

The question is what did the Framers intend.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-23   11:19:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: tpaine (#86)

Continue on in your ignorance.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-23   18:46:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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