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Title: Corporate America Is Just 7 States Short of a Constitutional Convention
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://inthesetimes.com/article/189 ... rate-constitutional-convention
Published: Mar 14, 2016
Author: SIMON DAVIS-COHEN
Post Date: 2016-03-14 18:16:47 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 10435
Comments: 89

In February, Republican presidential hopeful Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) signed on to a call for a constitutional convention to help defeat “the Washington cartel [that] has put special interest spending ahead of the American people.”

Cruz, along with fellow Republican presidential aspirants Sen. Marco Rubio (Fla.) and Gov. John Kasich (Ohio), has endorsed an old conservative goal of a Constitutional amendment to mandate a balanced federal budget. The idea sounds fanciful, but free-market ideologues associated with the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a secretive group of right-wing legislators and their corporate allies, are close to pulling off a coup that could devastate the economy, which is just emerging from a recession. Their scheme could leave Americans reeling for generations. A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy during an economic depression by increasing the national debt. (Since 1970, the United States has had a balanced budget in only four years: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.)

Article V of the Constitution lays out two routes for changing the law of the land: An amendment can be proposed by Congress or by a constitutional convention that is convened by two-thirds of the states (34). Either way, three-fourths of the states (38) have to ratify it. Previously, changes to the country’s founding document have been achieved by the first process. But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the twothirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

The ALEC-affiliated Balanced Budget Amendment Task Force (BBATF), which proffered the pledge signed by Cruz, is hoping to meet that 34-state threshold by July 4. BBATF is one player in an astroturf movement backed by the billionaire Koch brothers and embraced by right-wing state legislators.

A balanced budget amendment has long been a holy grail for the Right since the 1930s. In the 1980s, conservatives made a push for a balanced budget constitutional convention and, 20 years later, the idea was resurrected as part of the Tea Party platform. That’s when BBATF was formed to carry the movement forward. With 16 resolutions held over from the previous wave of conservative activism, BBATF has since passed resolutions in Alabama (2011), New Hampshire (2012), Ohio (2013), Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Michigan, Louisiana (2014), South Dakota, North Dakota and Utah (2015), bringing the total to 27. This year, BBATF is targeting 13 states: Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. In six of these states Republicans control both legislative bodies and the governorship, making passage a real possibility and leaving BBATF one state shy of the magic 34.

Domino effect While the BBATF’s 27 resolutions are tied specifically to the balanced budget amendment, a group called Citizens for Self-Governance launched a project called Convention of States, whose proposal for a constitutional convention has also been adopted by ALEC as a model policy. Convention of States has passed resolutions calling for a convention in Florida, Georgia (2014), Alabama, Arkansas (2015) and Tennessee (2016). Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution.

Both BBATF and Convention of States have struggled to address worries of a runaway convention. What would stop it from turning out like the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, which led to the scrapping of the Articles of Confederation and the drafting of an entirely new U.S. Constitution?

To address these concerns, a group called Compact for America, which has passed resolutions in Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi and North Dakota, has proposed that states combine their calls for a constitutional convention with the final ratification process. This would mean states attending the convention would propose the amendment and ratify it in one fell swoop, which would require the 38 states needed for ratification under Article V, not just the 34 needed to call a convention.

Convention of States and BBATF have tried to quell fears of a runaway convention by saying the convention would be bound by the subject matter of the resolutions, and that the convention only has the power to propose amendments, which then must be ratified by the required 38 states.

That the subject matter of the resolutions will prevent a runaway convention may make sense in reference to the BBATF, whose resolutions focus specifically on the balanced budget amendment, but when applied to the Convention of States’ agenda, the argument fails, as the subject of their resolutions includes broad language to curb the power and jurisdiction of the federal government. Convention of States spokesman Michael Farris has written that, “It is relatively certain that there would be at least a few amendments proposed, perhaps as many as 10 to 12.” In other words, if Convention of States has its way, there could well be a runaway convention.

Within striking distance Arn Pearson at the Center for Media and Democracy, a watchdog group based in Madison, Wisc., is closely tracking the movement. He describes the campaign for a constitutional convention as “a very live threat.” “If between the groups they get to 34 states,” he says, “there is really nothing preventing them from aggregating those calls even if they’re not identical, and pushing for a convention.”

Another uncertainty, Pearson notes, is the controversy over whether the 16 resolutions left over from the effort in the 1980s can still be counted. There is no precedent to lean on. Pro-convention advocates maintain that Congress, which is tasked with processing the states’ applications, may not meddle with the process. If a state doesn’t want a convention, they argue, it can rescind its application. Pearson suspects the Supreme Court would get involved.

“There are a lot of different parts of the Koch machine pulling on this oar,” says Pearson, “from their think tanks up through their elected officials, they’re pushing on it. They’re pushing on it hard.” And, given how red BBATF’s 2016 target states are, says Pearson, “it’s within striking distance. If [ALEC and the Koch brothers] get a convention,” says Pearson, “they get to lock in their conservative supply-side policies for the next generation or more. That’s where they’re going.”

The Kochs and company, with their gridlock of Washington, have bred a type of discontent that has made once unimaginable change possible.

Tugging on citizen discontent, Convention of States’ propaganda highlights the 2013 government shutdown, creeping NSA surveillance, Gallup polls showing Americans’ dissatisfaction with “government” and tales of federal bureaucratic waste.

But such a convention is not the tonic to satiate this discontent. Democratic control is what the American people yearn for, but that is not what the convention would offer.

Maybe the alternative is the revolution Bernie Sanders is envisioning: Electing insurgent candidates to Congress, state and local office; strengthening and expanding direct democratic institutions like the ballot initiative process; making constitutional changes that elevate democratic decisions above corporate personhood; and building a movement that engages the thousands of communities where democratic governance has been all but quashed by ALEC-endorsed legal doctrine and legislation.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 78.

#2. To: A K A Stone (#0)

But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the two thirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement.

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-14   18:29:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: SOSO (#2)

" What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement. "

I do not think it would be limited. I think it is a terrible idea. I do not know why guys like Levin push it.

Rather than a convention,why don't they just try following the constitution we already have.

If they do not, we have plenty of tall trees & lightposts, all we need is a lot of cheap rope.

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   2:12:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Stoner (#15)

why don't they just try following the constitution we already have.

Many people think we do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-15   8:52:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#16)

" Many people think we do. "

Counsellor, I think you would agree that those people are wrong!

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   10:47:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Stoner (#17)

Counsellor, I think you would agree that those people are wrong!

Actually, no I don't.

I think our Constitution is written in a very open style that lends itself to all sorts of interpretations.

It was written by a narrow cadre of men: the upper class colonial gentry, without the input of the majority of the population (add together women, black slaves and Indians back then and you had a significant unrepresented majority).

The language is fixed on those things that the white make gentry agreed upon in 1787, but becomes vague on those things that even they did not agree upon, such as the limits of speech, or what constituted "commerce", or over the bounds of courts and the like.

The political conflicts began immediately. The second President signed the Alien and Sedition Act, which made criticism of the government a federal crime! The Founders themselves did not agree on what "freedom of speech" or "freedom of the press" meant.

They fought over these meanings, and we've been fighting ever since.

By my standards, the original Constitution was a failure. The country dissolved into Civil War in 1861 because the institution of, and opposition to, slavery was stronger than whatever allegiance the men of that era had to a piece of paper.

The Civil War was fought and won outside of the Constitution, and a new Constitution was imposed by the victors at the end of the war. Once again this was done by the decisions of a minority of the population, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

American politics have been turbulent and, compared with most Atlantic European nations, very bloody. And our legal system is quite capricious and political.

Taken as a whole, I would say that our Constitution is what it has always been: largely a cypher, which the strong political movements of each successive tome drape upon themselves as a mantle of legitimacy, but which has never stood on its own and which can't, really. And the legal system that has developed under the Constitution is really quite bad, comparatively speaking. The French, British, Dutch and Scandinavians all have better legal systems and more just courts than we do, on average. Here, without our elected prosecutors, there's a real chance of getting railroaded for somebody's political statement.

The Constitution does serve as a sort of civil idol for most Americans, who afford it a reverence and statements of fealty out of proportion to what it really is, in my opinion.

But it is what it is, and we're stuck with it.

I think that the full range of people, from liberal Democrats to conservative Republicans, all believe that they are operating fully within the bounds of our Constitution, and that the Left has judicial and constitutional arguments that are as strong as the right.

To me, this shows just what an essentially meaningless piece of paper the actual Constitution really IS, and always HAS been.

It says very little, and what little it says has ALWAYS been interpreted to mean whatever the dominant party wants.

Look at the way Christians go at it over the meaning of the Bible. Each thinks that he is truly interpreting it, and each is right. The problem with written words is that they're just words, and every word has multiple meanings.

I see American politics as being much like Catholic and Protestant Christianity, with the Constitution and the Bible serving the same role in both.

I do not think that the solution to human problems is found in pieces of paper written by men, but in common sense and compassion, which are installed in us by God.

Most people find my view to be unpleasant and controversial, so they say that I'm "wrong". But most people have not read the Constitution and the case law that has come from it as well as I have, and most people don't know history very well, so they move on emotion. I move on knowledge.

Will I "support and defend" the Constitution? Sure. But my idea of support means "Make it better so that it can stand", and "defense" to me means preventing people from replacing it with raw unbridled power without rules. The Constitution really is just the rules for operating the government. And those rules are fine. The principles, though, and content of the law, are cyphers.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-15   11:19:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#18) (Edited)

Well, I expected a long answer. You certainly did not disappoint! LOL !

I still contend that they do not follow the constitution. Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   11:42:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Stoner (#19)

Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

Each side reads into it what they want to see, and they each really believe it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   19:10:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Vicomte13, tpaine (#23)

" Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule. "

Yes they do. I agree it could have been worded differently.

The 2nd Amendment says the right to keep & bear arms " shall not be infringed ".

Go to your law library and look at all the Federal Laws & regulations relating to firearms. Then compare that to the laws relating to the First Amendment, or any of the other amendments.

That will show you a lot of "infringing".

The Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution with the intention that having a Harvard Law Degree would be required to read and understand it. The FF wanted everyone to understand it, even though they were all very well educated.

The problem begins when lawyers get involved, they want to over complicate things, and pick fly specs out of the pepper. For example, if you ask a lawyer what time it is, they will give you a two hour dissertation on how to build a watch, yet never tell you what time it is. Like Bubba saying "it depends on what the definition of is is".

This is an example of TPTB not following the constitution, why so many do not like, nor trust them. It is noteworthy that most of them are lawyers. This is part of the reason why Trump is so popular.

So yes, they DO NOT follow the Constitution ( 2nd Amendment example ). Another example would be the "Commerce Clause" which they have abused and stretched it way out of proportion to what the FF intended. If they did follow the Constitution, we would not have all the problems we do! Another quick example of them not following the constitution. The Constitution says only Congress can declare War. Yet, since the end of WWII, look how many wars we have been in, at great expense of public treasure & blood. Yet none of those had a declaration of war by Congress. I don't give a damn how anyone trys to excuse that. THAT IS WRONG. And it is not constitutional !! Another example is the Federal budget, which has exploded, simply because they have funded programs, departments, agencies etc that are NOT authorized in the constitution. Also, they have violated the constitution by having the Federal Reserve "coin" money. And,it is paper, not gold & silver as the constitution requires.

Just remember what Thomas Jefferson said: " The greatest danger to American Freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution. " And my favorite: " “Put not your faith in men, but bind them down with the chains of the constitution.”" That does not sound to me like he advocated letting them do what ever they wanted, like they do now. Other wise, what is the point of having a constitution?

If you do not like my answer, I apologize. I am not a lawyer, I am just a lowly common citizen. But I can read the US Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and have even read a number of the debates. I have a rudimentary understanding of what the FF intended, and can compare / contrast that with what our ruling elites do. There is absolutely no denying that they do not follow the constitution! They want to operate like the middle ages, and that they are the dukes, earls, lords, etc, and can do any thing they want. And they do.

I fully understand what the word "infringe" means!! And I fully understand what the words SHALL NOT means.

Unfortunately, the ruling elites do not.

One last apology. I did not intend for this reply to be so verbose! And I am not a lawyer, LOL

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-16   21:24:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Stoner (#29)

But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean?

For example, "no law" that abridges the "freedom of speech" "or of the press"...

So, then, it is unconstitutional to have libel laws? To have laws against sedition? To have laws against child pornography? To have laws against speaking national secrets in public? To have laws against verbal inducement to fraud?

Those are all forms of speech, and there are laws that punish all of them. Speech is very clearly abridged by those laws, and the Constitution says NO law - meaning NO law.

The problem is that the words "freedom of speech" "or of the press" do not mean the right to say whatever one wants to. It is not "abridging" the "freedom of speech" to have laws against those things, because none of those things fall within the bounds of the "freedom of speech".

Similarly, 'the right to keep and bear arms" which shall not be infringed is not a universal license to have and carry whatever weapons one chooses. It is a bounded set of things, this right.

We know that the personal weapons that men had in 1787 were within the right, but the Founders did not envision weapons of mass destruction. Those are "arms" too, but the possession of them may or may not fall within the ambit of "the right to keep and bear arms", depending on how extensive the range of that right is.

There are extremists of both sorts - those who say that the right can be rounded to zero, and those who say that the Constitution guarantees the untrammelled right to erect anti-aircraft missile batteries on your lawn on short final to LaGuardia, and to keep nukes in the basement.

There is very little willingness to be reasonable on any side.

And the Constitution is of no help in the matter, because it doesn't explain itself.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   23:14:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

" But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean? "

Uh, yes, of course I do. It is plain english.

I have "the right" to bear arms. I also have the responsibility to exercise it with common sense. The 2nd Amendment does not give me the right to be irresponsible, by shooting someone for fun, or shooting their dog or house, etc, etc.

Everyone has the right to Freedom of Speech, but not to yell FIRE in a crowded theater. Common Sense. Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

Vickie Weaver & her son were killed by Federal Agents because of a shotgun barrel that was less than 1/4 inch too short according to some damn regulation written by some GD bureaucrat.

That IS NOT the kind of nation our FF intended.

Use some damn common sense!

The fact remains that Congress does not follow / obey the constitution!

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   9:50:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Stoner (#34) (Edited)

Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

There are library wings of laws and judicial decisions regarding free speech.

Every aspect of speech is regulated very tightly, in fact, and always has been.

"Fire in a crowded theater"...yes, that's the logic for limiting speech. Do you know when those words, specifically, were written, by whom, and the circumstance?

It was written by Holmes in the Supreme Court decision Schenk v United States, a 1919 case. The subject matter? In 1918 Congress passed the Sedition Act which made it a criminal offense against national security to protest the military draft for World War I.

Schenk's group were pacifists, who protested the draft by printing pamphlets saying that the draft was unconstitutional. Oliver Wendell Holmes penned the famous opinion that reminded people we cannot cry out "Fire!" in a crowded theater - and then equated any speech whatsoever that protested the constitutionality of the military draft during time of war as being the equivalent of crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

In other words, in time of war, Congress pass a law that criminalizes all speech, including constitutional arguments, that stands against any government decision that is related to the war.

"Freedom of Speech" is not abridged by criminalizing all criticism of the government during time of war, because to criticize any military decision of the government in time of war is to cry "Fire" in a crowded theater, and that is, of course, not protected by the freedom of speech.

So please DO come again at how speech isn't regulated.

Speech is the most regulated right of all. It is regulated to the point that we do not, in fact, have free speech in America at all. We just pretend to.

So tell me, does "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" mean that I can have a nuclear weapon at home, or have a nerve gas grenade? It's an arm, I want to keep it, and the Constitution says I have a right to keep and bear "arms" that "shall NOT BE INFRINGED".

So do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no?

By what you've said, the answer must be "Yes", because you acknowledge no limitation on the right to keep and bear arms.

And that's nuts.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   10:14:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#35)

" do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no? "

OK, the short answer is NO.

Lets try to keep this short. Many legal scholars have discussed the meaning of "arms". Virtually all agree that it is referring to common infantry arms, which would include rifles, pistols, shotguns, swords, bayonets, etc.

When you try to include " nukes, nerve gas ' etc, it then appears you are in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, by using over reaching arguments. You obviously have no idea why the FF included it, do you?

You are just being silly, and have destroyed your credibility.

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   10:49:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Stoner (#36)

When you try to include " nukes, nerve gas ' etc, it then appears you are in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, by using over reaching arguments. You obviously have no idea why the FF included it, do you?

Your argument was based on the WORDS. The WORD is "arms". It is not "sidearms" or "infantry arms". Just "arms".

You've brought in the "legal scholars", and they're all over the place.

Which demonstrates my point: the Constitution is short, and vague.

What you want to do is assert that the legal scholars that agree with YOU are the only REAL legal scholars. That dog don't hunt. Never has in a democracy.

What makes THOSE legal scholars the right ones?

Now I, personally, take an originalist view. "Arms" means all the arms that the Founding Fathers who wrote those words knew or intuited.

Airplanes did not exist. Atomic bombs, 1000 lb bombs, claymore mines, machine guns - nope, nope, nope.

"Arms" in 1787 meant single-shot black-powder muzzle loading muskets and pistols, shotguns, one-shot muzzle loading black powder long gun hunting rifles, cannons with cannon-balls and grapeshot, mortars with solid rounds, and naval "rockets", which were essentially light mortars and flares. Also swords and knives. Black powder grenades with a fuse one had to light. Dynamite didn't exist yet. Neither did rifled cannon. There were no semi- automatic or automatic anything.

With the weaponry of those times, a man could defend himself against another man or two or three with a single shot gun and a pair of pistols, and then had to rely on the sword.

Those are the "arms" envisioned by the Founders. That's what the word "arms" means in the Constitution.

Those arms have important limitations. They are not very long range. They are slow to reload. One man skilled with gun and sword might be able to defeat a bare handful of other men, often non-lethally.

But one man with a semi-automatic pistol today could take on a squad of Redcoats and win. Modern, rapid-fire, semi-automatic weaponse with magazines and rifled barrels have far greater killing power than the "arms" of the Constitution. And that difference matters.

The "Right to keep and bear arms" arose out of the English Civil War, when an armed British yeomanry was able to bring to heel a better-armed British aristocracy and end the nobility's monopoly of arms. With guns, armor could be penetrated, and the absolute advantage of the armored medieval lord over his unarmored peasants was gone. Any man with a gun could shoot any armored knight out of the saddle. To obtain the basic liberties of the English population (and the French, a little later) required a brutal fight by the mass of men with single-shot muskets. The right to keep and bear arms was intended among the English, and then among the Americans, to maintain that right.

But in those days, a single madman could not enter the local tavern and kill ten people. He could shoot one, and draw a blade on others, and the mass of the men present could physically overpower him.

One man with a gun could not stage a bloody rebellion. He could kill a man or two, and then be cut down.

Today, that is not true. Today, a single deranged nut with a semi-automatic weapon can shoot down a dozen people, reload and continue. One man with an M-16 could take out a British platoon of 1776, at a range where the British could probably not hit him back.

Modern firearms transform what amounts to a COLLECTIVE right to rebellion by amassing many individual men with single shot weapons, into an INDIVIDUAL power of rebellion with firepower that concentrates the force of a colonial company of musketmen into one man.

The political threat to liberty of governments and wealthy nobles with private armies, in 1776 and 1787, was greater than the damage the one lone nut could do with any firearm that existed, then.

But weaponry has evolved, and today, a single nut with a gun can inflict mass casualties all on his own, because he cooks off. People cook off all the time in our modern society also, in part because they CAN.

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

I do not, however, see that it was the intent of the Founders for individuals to bear, unregulated, firepower of the sort that exists in 2016, without restraint. In 1789, weapons were not sophisticated enough to produce mass casualty events, the "arms" were single shot.

Would the Founders have given the right to keep MODERN firearms without restriction?

It is impossible to know. One can reason it either way.

And that's my point: the Constitution is not clear.

If it makes you feel good to yell at me that I "have no credibility" because I don't agree with you that the Second Amendment means what you say, then go ahead and feel good. I merely retort that you lack the POWER to impose what is nothing more than your opinion upon the rest of society.

For my part, I tend to be in favor of ease of private ownership of guns, as a practical matter, but I do not acknowledge that the ownership of anything other than single shot black-powder muzzle loading firearms and swords is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

The Second Amendment does not protect individual ownership of semi-automatic weapons (let alone automatic weapons), either from state law or federal.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   13:29:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Vicomte13, nolu chan (#44) (Edited)

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

That certainly is an interesting perspective on the Framer's intent in regard to the 2nd Amendment that you have there.

But it's a cinch that the Framers were to a man innovators, and I'm sure that they recognized that technology would not, could not stand still.

We should keep in mind that the right protected in the 2nd Amendment was not enshrined there to protect deer hunters, collectors or target shooters.

It was put there to protect the "natural right of resistance and self- preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression" (Blackstone).

If the power of the arms an individual may bear has been greatly increased in the intervening two centuries, the power of a government to impose oppression has been magnified to an even greater degree.

TPB have APC's, tanks, choppers, sonic weapons, microwave weapons, laser beams, and chemical agents at their disposal should they ever deem it necessary to enforce their will on us by us of force.

What they have in stock dwarfs the auto-loader in the bedroom closet in range and lethality by orders of magnitude. The modern gun owner does not overstep the scope of his natural right in the type of arms that he owns and bears.

He is merely playing catch-up.

randge  posted on  2016-03-20   16:46:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: randge, Vicomte13, nolu chan (#65)

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-20   17:12:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: SOSO, All (#66)

So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

That's an interesting point. I remember posts on a thread on one of these forums years back where a poster cited distinctions in the law between arms that may be borne and munitions like the howitzers cannons, mortars, and war ships that you mention that cannot.

I haven't been able to locate those sources, but I'd be interested to see them if anybody else here might know authors or text that relate to this nomenclature & the 2nd A. This issue pops up in these discussion from time to time.

randge  posted on  2016-03-20   17:32:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: randge, Y'ALL (#68)

SOSO, --- So did the Framers mean that an individual may keep and bear any and all arms of the day, e.g. - Howitzer cannon, mortar, war ship?

That's an interesting point. I remember posts on a thread on one of these forums years back where a poster cited distinctions in the law between arms that may be borne and munitions like the howitzers cannons, mortars, and war ships that you mention that cannot.

I haven't been able to locate those sources, but I'd be interested to see them if anybody else here might know authors or text that relate to this nomenclature & the 2nd A. This issue pops up in these discussion from time to time. --- randge

We had many threads on free republic, back in the day, on those subjects. No doubt they're still available over there.

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, etc. -- just as it should.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-20   17:58:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: tpaine (#69)

he consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, etc. -- just as it should.

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-20   20:31:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Vicomte13 (#70)

We had many threads on free republic, back in the day, on those subjects. No doubt they're still available over there.

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, even nuclear materials (private power plants anyone?). -- just as it should.

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   13:12:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: tpaine (#71) (Edited)

The consensus always favored our right to bear cannon, explosives, even nuclear materials (private power plants anyone?). -- just as it should.

The "consensus" favors the constitutional right to have personal nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?

People cook off and kill themselves and those around them all the time, tens of thousands do it every year. That's just great. Some guy is distressed with the world, and commits a murder-suicide that takes out five city blocks.

That "consensus" turns the Constitution into a suicide pact.

There will be no Second Amendment left if people who are in favor of gun rights cannot draw a line, principled or unprincipled but practical, that rules nuclear, biological and chemical weapons off limits. If "the right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" means that individuals have the constitutional right to own nukes, keep bioweps and stockpile mustard gas, then it's a right we have to abolish.

Every gun advocate has to be able to answer the question regarding nuclear, biological and chemical weapons ownership with "of course not!", and needs to be able to explain why "the right to keep and bear arms" is NOT infringed by laws absolutely prohibiting any individuals from buying or making and holding any such weapons.

Weapons of mass destruction are the Achilles' heel in the logic of the 2nd Amendment, and gun rights advocates have to be able to clearly, forcefully and unequivocally make it clear that "arms" means GUNS, and does NOT mean any WMD.

Otherwise, you're going to lose your guns rights too. Because anybody who believes that people have the right to personal nukes, anthrax and nerve gas is a nut.

You can't just talk around the issue. You have to face it square and say, unequivocally and absolutely, that the 2nd Amendment DOES NOT APPLY to nuclear, biological and chemical arms. That THOSE arms are not, and never were, contemplated by the founders, and that THEREFORE the right to keep and bear arms in the 2nd Amendment does not mean THOSE arms, in any way.

If you can't say that, then you're not going to be able to sustain your right to keep a pistol either, over time.

You have to face the real world with realism, and there is only one correct answer to the 2nd Amendment's applicability to nukes. And that answer is NO.

YOU, the gun advocates, have GOT TO devise the argument, the reasoning, to get there, because the people who want to take your guns are going to keep on beating you over the head with nukes and bombs and chemical weapons, and if you're answer is "Yep, that's part of the right", then you lose the right entirely.

The right to keep and bear arms MUST BE INFRINGED, if "arms" includes nuclear weapons. So, if you don't WANT it infringed, YOU have to limit "the right to keep and bear arms" to guns.

I was helping you by giving the weapons of 1789 as a starting point. You might be able to move forward to something more effective than those old weapons, but you'll have a basis to do it. That can get you to personal gun ownership rights.

But if you START with the premises that the "consensus" of gun nuts is that they have the right to keep and bear nukeweps and nerve gas, well, that's crazy, and crazy does not win.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-21   13:29:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Vicomte13 (#72)

How about nuclear weapons? They're arms too.

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb.

The right to keep and bear arms MUST BE INFRINGED, if "arms" includes nuclear weapons. So, if you don't WANT it infringed, YOU have to limit "the right to keep and bear arms" to guns.

Impossible. -- Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic.

But if you START with the premises that the "consensus" of gun nuts is that they have the right to keep and bear nukeweps and nerve gas, well, that's crazy, and crazy does not win.

Your crazy hype on the subject is noted, Mrs Brady.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   13:59:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: tpaine (#73)

I am speaking about nuclear WEAPONS, not nuclear materials. Biological WEAPONS, not biological materials. Chemical WEAPONS: nerve gas bombs, for example.

Do you assert that the right to keep and bear arms contained in the Second Amendment means that a very rich person, say Donald Trump, has the right under the Constitution to purchase or assemble, and keep, an atomic bomb, or mustard gas mortar shells, or shells that are filled with weaponized anthrax?

Yes or no?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-21   18:24:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Vicomte13 (#74) (Edited)

Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic.

Do you assert that the right to keep and bear arms contained in the Second Amendment means that a very rich person, say Donald Trump, has the right under the Constitution to purchase or assemble, and keep, an atomic bomb, or mustard gas mortar shells, or shells that are filled with weaponized anthrax?

Read much?

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb, as per our Constitution.

--- Other nations would probably object, but our Constitution doesn't.

It's quite obvious your want to change the Constitution, and abolish individual rights.. -- Get over your insanity, or go elsewhere.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-21   21:37:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: tpaine (#75)

ead much?

On nukes and bio type weapons, the problem becomes maintenance and safe storage. No doubt if you owned Pitcairn, you too could have you own atomic bomb, as per our Constitution.

--- Other nations would probably object, but our Constitution doesn't.

It's quite obvious your want to change the Constitution, and abolish individual rights.. -- Get over your insanity, or go elsewhere.

The problem with nukeweps, bioweps and chemical weps is not primarily storage, although yes, that certainly is also a problem.

The problem with them is the ability to inflict mass casualties, start an epidemic, poison an area of land for decades to come.

Even in the military there is two person control over all of this. Why? Because military people, just like every other kind of people, go nuts and commit murder suicides. Individiual citizens can never, ever, ever have the power in their own hands to take out a whole city because the neighbor's German shepherd starts talking to them. It's crazy to even think it.

When the Founders wrote that the write to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, they were not lunatics. They never imagined weapons of the power and reach of NBC weapons.

But even if they did, it's irrelevant. There can be no individual right to possess such weapons. None. It's not a matter of storage. It's a matter of people cooking off and using them. Within the military there are layers of control function. In individual homes, there is nothing but the mind of the individual, however diseased.

I note how you try to wriggle away from answering the question directly. I will ask it directly again, as a yes or no question, and then I will teach you something..

The question is very simple and very direct: Does the 2nd Amendment protect an individual's right to keep a thermonuclear weapon? Yes or no?

I am telling you the truth: the answer to that question that every gun lover in the world has to be able to give, without hesitation, is NO. If you can't answer NO, then you're a nut, and you've lost any argument you might have about 2nd Amendment rights.

You guys who are PROPONENTS of the 2nd Amendment have to have the presence of mind to be able to draw a clear, sharp line that says that WMDs do not fall within the "right to keep and bear arms".

The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and the argument that individuals have any right whatever to possess any such weapons, let alone bear them, is an argument that any nut with the cash anywhere has the right to hold whole cities hostage. It's insane.

The 2nd Amendment CANNOT be read to mean that. You're reading it to mean that, and read absolutely literally, it DOES mean that. So it's up to YOU, the gun rights advocates, to develop a theory as to why it DOESN'T mean that, that it means guns, not mustard gas.

YOU have to develop that argument, because if you don't, then you are on the crazy nut fringe and more responsible people will step in and impose THEIR rule, which certainly won't allow nukes, but which won't allow any other guns either other than perhaps registered hunting rifles and shotguns.

If you leave an intellectual vacuum and refuse to answer the question, playing around with stupid ideas like "the question is STORAGE", then you lose the public and you lose your guns rights.

The way you've gone on belittling me is why you're losing your guns rights. You have lost so many of them and you will keep on losing if you take a ridiculous maximal position that doesn't carve out a huge exception for weapons of mass destruction.

Now, you're right that the language of the 2nd Amendment does not, in fact, place any such limit. So you have to read one into it, and that reading in has to come from YOUR side. If you take the absolutist position, as you have, as many do, or refuse to answer the question, you're not a responsible person and people stop listening to you. Reasonable people wall you off and go about deciding what to do.

Now, I tried to lay down a set of principles above to HELP the gun rights movement steer out of this minefield.

You START with the weapons of 1787. THOSE that are arms (and a barrel of black powder is not an arm) are protected, because that's what the Founders had in mind. You rule out all WMD - obviously the Founders did not have THAT in mind.

And then the sole question becomes where the line is drawn at repeat fire weapons - automatic and semi-automatic. Are those more like WMD, or are they more like single shot black powder weapons? That is where you can fight a reasonable fight, as long as you come down on the side that machine guns are more like WMD and people can't generally keep and bear them, while semi-automatics are a divided field. Revolvers came early and were accepted. Fine. Modern semi-auto "assault weapons" - those are on the cusp, and that's where you fight.

By taking this approach, you secure the principle that there is a CLASS of weapons that are very clearly "arms" that can be kept and borne by the citizenry WITHOUT RESTRICTION. Single shot black powder and swords are certainly there. Revolvers are almost certainly there. The line of where the absolute right ends is fuzzy, and is located somewhere in the world of semi-automatics, because the Founders had no concept of mass casualty weapons, so the original intent of that 2nd Amendment was not that people can arm up with WMD and mass effect weapons. So WMD and machine guns are always out. Black powder single shot are always win. And the boundary of the right lies in semiautomatics.

That protects a lot of rights that are not currently protected by the actual state of the law, and it saves YOU and your fellow gun nuts the insanity of saying that people have the Constitutional right to possess nukes in their basement. Yes, read literally the 2nd Amendment says that. So therefore no, it cannot be read literally, because that's suicide. Here, original intent really helps, because it naturally limits the weapons to single shot guns. One than can take things forward to some reasonable advancements - revolvers, certainly, breech-loading modern gunpowder weapons, sure.

And the line of contention simply becomes where to draw it in the semi-autos. Registration and the like of black powder goes by the wayside. We end up focusing on a class of weapons that were outside the actual "arms" of 1789, but not so far outside that the Founders would have been likely to exclude them. But a nuke? Come on. If they existed at the time of the Founders, the Founders would not have written the 2md Amendment as broadly as they did.

Unfortunately for your cause, there are a lot of gun nuts who take your position - one of absolute rights. And you can't see your way clear to except nukes, so you simply assert "all the way through the nukes".

But even you knows that's crazy, which is why you won't answer the question directly, and try to make it about the form of my question. That dog don't hunt. It's not just ME who asks about nukes. It's every sane person, and you cannot hold onto your rights if you talk to everybody as though they are all insane. Your 2nd Amendment will not defend itself, and your position is certainly not going to defend it

I've given you a position that will help you to devise a reasonable defense. If you take unreasonable extremes like "A chicken in every pot and a nuke in every basement", you're going to lose your right to keep and bear arms, because your adversaries point at that and say "See, these people are NUTS. And nuts should not be walking around with guns."

And over time, given all of the mass murder-suicide events, the public has more and more turned against you and the 2nd Amendment.

To save it, you have to come out of the crazy swamp, acknowledge that we're not talking about nukes and mustard gas and machine guns here, and explain why. Then you are back in the world of reason.

Saying things like "We need the biggest weapons because the government has them and how are we going to fight the government without them" doesn't help your case at all. YOU may think that the 2nd Amendment is all about having the "right to rebel", and maybe that's what the Founders had in mind. But we had a Civil War. People already rebelled. A million people died, and they failed to achieve their independence. The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

Unloading another screed at me because you don't like what I say doesn't do anything for you. You have to teach yourself to state where the line is in the Second Amendment, because if you refuse to do that, other people will draw the line, and they will draw it at zero. It's already happening, and it will continue to, unless folks like you stop being nuts and start to reasonably address the issues that the gun controllers bring up.

If your idea of the 2nd Amendment means individuals have the right to keep and bear nukes, you're going to end up with no guns at all. You have to come off that position. It's obviously nuts.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   7:15:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Individuals and groups must have the right to 'bear' (possess) dangerous materials for peaceful purposes. --- Materials that can be easily configured to become weapons/arms.. -- Sure, reasonable regulations on storage and use can be made, but they canNOT be prohibited in our constitutional republic - lest we start down the road to serfdom.

Saying things like "We need the biggest weapons because the government has them and how are we going to fight the government without them" doesn't help your case at all.

Straw man argument. Reasonable regulations about using dangerous weapons grade materials have been written. Lots of unreasonable, unconstitutional prohibitions on 'assault weapons' too.

YOU may think that the 2nd Amendment is all about having the "right to rebel", and maybe that's what the Founders had in mind.

And now you're gonna imply they didn't?

But we had a Civil War. People already rebelled. A million people died, and they failed to achieve their independence.

And if only we had gun control before the civil war, -- it could have been avoided? ---- Weird argument you've made.

The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

There you go again, imagining that one part of the American populace can issue permits to their neighbors. -- That's not constitutional...

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22   13:19:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: tpaine (#77)

Hypothetical: I've got $10 billion. The Russians are willing to sell me a tactical nuke, fully assembled, for $3 billion.

Should I be able to buy a tactical nuke and keep it?

Yes or no.

I am not speaking of "nuclear material". I am speaking of a fully assembled, operational thermonuclear device that I could detonate, if I chose.

Does the Second Amendment guarantee my right to buy and hold that thermonculear weapon, yes or no?

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-22   13:45:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 78.

#79. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

The 2nd Amendment may be about an inchoate right of rebellion, at its root, but if that's the case, the rebellion is going to have to be achieved using weapons no stronger than revolvers and semi-automatics, because machine guns and nuclear weapons are not going to be things that the American populace are ever going to permit their neighbors to own.

There you go again, imagining that one part of the American populace can issue permits to their neighbors. -- That's not constitutional...

Hypothetical: I've got $10 billion. The Russians are willing to sell me a tactical nuke, fully assembled, for $3 billion. -- Should I be able to buy a tactical nuke and keep it?

If you take the other 7 billion and use it to buy Pitcairn island, where you'll keep, and maintain, (unfired) your nuke, - it's fine with me, and our Constitution. Hypothetically.

Anybody living downwind may send in a hit squad, however.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-22 14:18:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 78.

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