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Title: Corporate America Is Just 7 States Short of a Constitutional Convention
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://inthesetimes.com/article/189 ... rate-constitutional-convention
Published: Mar 14, 2016
Author: SIMON DAVIS-COHEN
Post Date: 2016-03-14 18:16:47 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 10432
Comments: 89

In February, Republican presidential hopeful Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) signed on to a call for a constitutional convention to help defeat “the Washington cartel [that] has put special interest spending ahead of the American people.”

Cruz, along with fellow Republican presidential aspirants Sen. Marco Rubio (Fla.) and Gov. John Kasich (Ohio), has endorsed an old conservative goal of a Constitutional amendment to mandate a balanced federal budget. The idea sounds fanciful, but free-market ideologues associated with the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a secretive group of right-wing legislators and their corporate allies, are close to pulling off a coup that could devastate the economy, which is just emerging from a recession. Their scheme could leave Americans reeling for generations. A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy during an economic depression by increasing the national debt. (Since 1970, the United States has had a balanced budget in only four years: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.)

Article V of the Constitution lays out two routes for changing the law of the land: An amendment can be proposed by Congress or by a constitutional convention that is convened by two-thirds of the states (34). Either way, three-fourths of the states (38) have to ratify it. Previously, changes to the country’s founding document have been achieved by the first process. But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the twothirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

The ALEC-affiliated Balanced Budget Amendment Task Force (BBATF), which proffered the pledge signed by Cruz, is hoping to meet that 34-state threshold by July 4. BBATF is one player in an astroturf movement backed by the billionaire Koch brothers and embraced by right-wing state legislators.

A balanced budget amendment has long been a holy grail for the Right since the 1930s. In the 1980s, conservatives made a push for a balanced budget constitutional convention and, 20 years later, the idea was resurrected as part of the Tea Party platform. That’s when BBATF was formed to carry the movement forward. With 16 resolutions held over from the previous wave of conservative activism, BBATF has since passed resolutions in Alabama (2011), New Hampshire (2012), Ohio (2013), Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Michigan, Louisiana (2014), South Dakota, North Dakota and Utah (2015), bringing the total to 27. This year, BBATF is targeting 13 states: Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. In six of these states Republicans control both legislative bodies and the governorship, making passage a real possibility and leaving BBATF one state shy of the magic 34.

Domino effect While the BBATF’s 27 resolutions are tied specifically to the balanced budget amendment, a group called Citizens for Self-Governance launched a project called Convention of States, whose proposal for a constitutional convention has also been adopted by ALEC as a model policy. Convention of States has passed resolutions calling for a convention in Florida, Georgia (2014), Alabama, Arkansas (2015) and Tennessee (2016). Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution.

Both BBATF and Convention of States have struggled to address worries of a runaway convention. What would stop it from turning out like the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, which led to the scrapping of the Articles of Confederation and the drafting of an entirely new U.S. Constitution?

To address these concerns, a group called Compact for America, which has passed resolutions in Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi and North Dakota, has proposed that states combine their calls for a constitutional convention with the final ratification process. This would mean states attending the convention would propose the amendment and ratify it in one fell swoop, which would require the 38 states needed for ratification under Article V, not just the 34 needed to call a convention.

Convention of States and BBATF have tried to quell fears of a runaway convention by saying the convention would be bound by the subject matter of the resolutions, and that the convention only has the power to propose amendments, which then must be ratified by the required 38 states.

That the subject matter of the resolutions will prevent a runaway convention may make sense in reference to the BBATF, whose resolutions focus specifically on the balanced budget amendment, but when applied to the Convention of States’ agenda, the argument fails, as the subject of their resolutions includes broad language to curb the power and jurisdiction of the federal government. Convention of States spokesman Michael Farris has written that, “It is relatively certain that there would be at least a few amendments proposed, perhaps as many as 10 to 12.” In other words, if Convention of States has its way, there could well be a runaway convention.

Within striking distance Arn Pearson at the Center for Media and Democracy, a watchdog group based in Madison, Wisc., is closely tracking the movement. He describes the campaign for a constitutional convention as “a very live threat.” “If between the groups they get to 34 states,” he says, “there is really nothing preventing them from aggregating those calls even if they’re not identical, and pushing for a convention.”

Another uncertainty, Pearson notes, is the controversy over whether the 16 resolutions left over from the effort in the 1980s can still be counted. There is no precedent to lean on. Pro-convention advocates maintain that Congress, which is tasked with processing the states’ applications, may not meddle with the process. If a state doesn’t want a convention, they argue, it can rescind its application. Pearson suspects the Supreme Court would get involved.

“There are a lot of different parts of the Koch machine pulling on this oar,” says Pearson, “from their think tanks up through their elected officials, they’re pushing on it. They’re pushing on it hard.” And, given how red BBATF’s 2016 target states are, says Pearson, “it’s within striking distance. If [ALEC and the Koch brothers] get a convention,” says Pearson, “they get to lock in their conservative supply-side policies for the next generation or more. That’s where they’re going.”

The Kochs and company, with their gridlock of Washington, have bred a type of discontent that has made once unimaginable change possible.

Tugging on citizen discontent, Convention of States’ propaganda highlights the 2013 government shutdown, creeping NSA surveillance, Gallup polls showing Americans’ dissatisfaction with “government” and tales of federal bureaucratic waste.

But such a convention is not the tonic to satiate this discontent. Democratic control is what the American people yearn for, but that is not what the convention would offer.

Maybe the alternative is the revolution Bernie Sanders is envisioning: Electing insurgent candidates to Congress, state and local office; strengthening and expanding direct democratic institutions like the ballot initiative process; making constitutional changes that elevate democratic decisions above corporate personhood; and building a movement that engages the thousands of communities where democratic governance has been all but quashed by ALEC-endorsed legal doctrine and legislation.

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#21. To: Stoner, Y'ALL, vicomte13 (#19)

To Vicomte --- I still contend that they do not follow the constitution. Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot. ---- Stoner

Vicomte13 (#18--- most people have not read the Constitution and the case law that has come from it as well as I have, and most people don't know history very well, so they move on emotion. I move on knowledge.

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: tpaine (#21)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery.

That's not why it was fought.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   19:09:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Stoner (#19)

Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

Each side reads into it what they want to see, and they each really believe it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   19:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

That's not why it was fought.

That's your exceptionally vague opinion.

Vicomte ---- to stoner ---- The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:17:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

That's not why it was fought.

That's your exceptionally vague opinion.

Vicomte ---- to stoner ---- The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

The 2nd is an exceptionally concise and well written amendment, not a "rule", -- it is part of our supreme law of the land. (See Art VI)

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Stoner, SOSO (#15)

I do not think it would be limited.

The authority of the original Constitutional Convention was limited to recommending amendments to the Articles of Confederation. It essentially resulted in eleven states seceding from the existing union and leaving two (NC/RI) behind, outside the new union. It created an entirely new and then-experimental form of government. The requirements for amending the AoC were trashed.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: tpaine, A K A Stone (#8)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution. The Constitution explicitly provides for people to be held answerable for capital crimes.

Following capital punishment, the subject is seperated from all rights, alienable and so-called unalienable. The right to life is taken away, and all other rights with it.

Regarding amendments, Article 5 provided for amendments with a certain restriction, "... Provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article...." That made it impossible to amend the Constitution for two decades to raise the tax on slaves.

Until the 13th Amendment, slavery was constitutional. The 13th Amendment ended slavery in the North, after the war, where it still existed.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13, Stoner (#18)

The Civil War was fought and won outside of the Constitution, and a new Constitution was imposed by the victors at the end of the war.

This is correct with the caveat that they amended the Constitution after the war, but did so in such a way to take the relationship of the state and federal governments and stand it on its head.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:58:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Vicomte13, tpaine (#23)

" Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule. "

Yes they do. I agree it could have been worded differently.

The 2nd Amendment says the right to keep & bear arms " shall not be infringed ".

Go to your law library and look at all the Federal Laws & regulations relating to firearms. Then compare that to the laws relating to the First Amendment, or any of the other amendments.

That will show you a lot of "infringing".

The Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution with the intention that having a Harvard Law Degree would be required to read and understand it. The FF wanted everyone to understand it, even though they were all very well educated.

The problem begins when lawyers get involved, they want to over complicate things, and pick fly specs out of the pepper. For example, if you ask a lawyer what time it is, they will give you a two hour dissertation on how to build a watch, yet never tell you what time it is. Like Bubba saying "it depends on what the definition of is is".

This is an example of TPTB not following the constitution, why so many do not like, nor trust them. It is noteworthy that most of them are lawyers. This is part of the reason why Trump is so popular.

So yes, they DO NOT follow the Constitution ( 2nd Amendment example ). Another example would be the "Commerce Clause" which they have abused and stretched it way out of proportion to what the FF intended. If they did follow the Constitution, we would not have all the problems we do! Another quick example of them not following the constitution. The Constitution says only Congress can declare War. Yet, since the end of WWII, look how many wars we have been in, at great expense of public treasure & blood. Yet none of those had a declaration of war by Congress. I don't give a damn how anyone trys to excuse that. THAT IS WRONG. And it is not constitutional !! Another example is the Federal budget, which has exploded, simply because they have funded programs, departments, agencies etc that are NOT authorized in the constitution. Also, they have violated the constitution by having the Federal Reserve "coin" money. And,it is paper, not gold & silver as the constitution requires.

Just remember what Thomas Jefferson said: " The greatest danger to American Freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution. " And my favorite: " “Put not your faith in men, but bind them down with the chains of the constitution.”" That does not sound to me like he advocated letting them do what ever they wanted, like they do now. Other wise, what is the point of having a constitution?

If you do not like my answer, I apologize. I am not a lawyer, I am just a lowly common citizen. But I can read the US Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and have even read a number of the debates. I have a rudimentary understanding of what the FF intended, and can compare / contrast that with what our ruling elites do. There is absolutely no denying that they do not follow the constitution! They want to operate like the middle ages, and that they are the dukes, earls, lords, etc, and can do any thing they want. And they do.

I fully understand what the word "infringe" means!! And I fully understand what the words SHALL NOT means.

Unfortunately, the ruling elites do not.

One last apology. I did not intend for this reply to be so verbose! And I am not a lawyer, LOL

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-16   21:24:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Stoner (#29)

Bravo Stoner! Very nicely composed rant.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2016-03-16   21:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Stoner (#29)

But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean?

For example, "no law" that abridges the "freedom of speech" "or of the press"...

So, then, it is unconstitutional to have libel laws? To have laws against sedition? To have laws against child pornography? To have laws against speaking national secrets in public? To have laws against verbal inducement to fraud?

Those are all forms of speech, and there are laws that punish all of them. Speech is very clearly abridged by those laws, and the Constitution says NO law - meaning NO law.

The problem is that the words "freedom of speech" "or of the press" do not mean the right to say whatever one wants to. It is not "abridging" the "freedom of speech" to have laws against those things, because none of those things fall within the bounds of the "freedom of speech".

Similarly, 'the right to keep and bear arms" which shall not be infringed is not a universal license to have and carry whatever weapons one chooses. It is a bounded set of things, this right.

We know that the personal weapons that men had in 1787 were within the right, but the Founders did not envision weapons of mass destruction. Those are "arms" too, but the possession of them may or may not fall within the ambit of "the right to keep and bear arms", depending on how extensive the range of that right is.

There are extremists of both sorts - those who say that the right can be rounded to zero, and those who say that the Constitution guarantees the untrammelled right to erect anti-aircraft missile batteries on your lawn on short final to LaGuardia, and to keep nukes in the basement.

There is very little willingness to be reasonable on any side.

And the Constitution is of no help in the matter, because it doesn't explain itself.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   23:14:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: nolu chan, stoner (#26)

The requirements for amending the AoC were trashed.

You noticed. Good for you. FYI the participants were not invited to a Constitutional Convention but a convention that was supposed to only amend the AoC. The organizers of the convention were very deceitful in organizing the convention knowing full well what they were doing. If they told the delegates their real agenda who knows how many would have showed.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-16   23:19:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#32) (Edited)

Sometimes men write laws that are so constricting, so confining, that they cannot get out of the box they have made for themselves other than by disregarding the law they made and making a new one.

An example: the Poles, in an excess of medieval concepts of equality among noble peers, had a rule that required unanimity in their noble chamber to pass any law. The net result was that the Polish government was crippled, unable to ever agree on anything, including fighting when Russia, Prussia and Austria were dismembering the Polish kingdom piece by piece.

Somewhat amazingly, the Poles were law abiding, right to the point of national dissolution and subjugation. The Polish assembly ceased to exist through conquest, but never agreed to rewrite the law.

The Articles of Confederation had reached a dead end and the country was strangling. So the leading lights of the country decided to break the existing law to make a new and better law.

Christians face the same struggle every time they open the Scriptures and see what God commanded, then released. Even God overrules himself from time to time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   6:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

" But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean? "

Uh, yes, of course I do. It is plain english.

I have "the right" to bear arms. I also have the responsibility to exercise it with common sense. The 2nd Amendment does not give me the right to be irresponsible, by shooting someone for fun, or shooting their dog or house, etc, etc.

Everyone has the right to Freedom of Speech, but not to yell FIRE in a crowded theater. Common Sense. Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

Vickie Weaver & her son were killed by Federal Agents because of a shotgun barrel that was less than 1/4 inch too short according to some damn regulation written by some GD bureaucrat.

That IS NOT the kind of nation our FF intended.

Use some damn common sense!

The fact remains that Congress does not follow / obey the constitution!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   9:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Stoner (#34) (Edited)

Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

There are library wings of laws and judicial decisions regarding free speech.

Every aspect of speech is regulated very tightly, in fact, and always has been.

"Fire in a crowded theater"...yes, that's the logic for limiting speech. Do you know when those words, specifically, were written, by whom, and the circumstance?

It was written by Holmes in the Supreme Court decision Schenk v United States, a 1919 case. The subject matter? In 1918 Congress passed the Sedition Act which made it a criminal offense against national security to protest the military draft for World War I.

Schenk's group were pacifists, who protested the draft by printing pamphlets saying that the draft was unconstitutional. Oliver Wendell Holmes penned the famous opinion that reminded people we cannot cry out "Fire!" in a crowded theater - and then equated any speech whatsoever that protested the constitutionality of the military draft during time of war as being the equivalent of crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

In other words, in time of war, Congress pass a law that criminalizes all speech, including constitutional arguments, that stands against any government decision that is related to the war.

"Freedom of Speech" is not abridged by criminalizing all criticism of the government during time of war, because to criticize any military decision of the government in time of war is to cry "Fire" in a crowded theater, and that is, of course, not protected by the freedom of speech.

So please DO come again at how speech isn't regulated.

Speech is the most regulated right of all. It is regulated to the point that we do not, in fact, have free speech in America at all. We just pretend to.

So tell me, does "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" mean that I can have a nuclear weapon at home, or have a nerve gas grenade? It's an arm, I want to keep it, and the Constitution says I have a right to keep and bear "arms" that "shall NOT BE INFRINGED".

So do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no?

By what you've said, the answer must be "Yes", because you acknowledge no limitation on the right to keep and bear arms.

And that's nuts.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   10:14:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#35)

" do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no? "

OK, the short answer is NO.

Lets try to keep this short. Many legal scholars have discussed the meaning of "arms". Virtually all agree that it is referring to common infantry arms, which would include rifles, pistols, shotguns, swords, bayonets, etc.

When you try to include " nukes, nerve gas ' etc, it then appears you are in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, by using over reaching arguments. You obviously have no idea why the FF included it, do you?

You are just being silly, and have destroyed your credibility.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   10:49:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: sneakypete (#1)

There's a difference between a Con con and an Article V convention, which is provided for under the Constitution, and whose work has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

TBP  posted on  2016-03-17   11:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Vicomte13 (#33)

Sometimes men write laws that are so constricting, so confining, that they cannot get out of the box they have made for themselves other than by disregarding the law they made and making a new one.

Yes, Virginia, the ends justify the means.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-17   11:27:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: sneakypete (#1)

They ought to take a provision from the Confederate Constitution that required legislation to deal with a single subject.

TBP  posted on  2016-03-17   11:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: nolu chan (#27)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

The Constitution explicitly provides for people to be held answerable for capital crimes. ---, Following capital punishment, the subject is seperated from all rights, alienable and so-called unalienable. The right to life is taken away, and all other rights with it.

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-17   11:46:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#40)

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

Do unborn babies have unalienable rights, especially the unalienable right to life? De facto an amendment is not required to take rights away from people. When its gone its gone. IDM how it gets gone.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-17   11:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: SOSO (#41)

--- an amendment is not required to take rights away from people ----

Thank you, Capt' Obvious.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-17   12:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: SOSO (#38)

Yes, Virginia, the ends justify the means.

If it didn't, we could not fight wars.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   13:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Stoner (#36)

When you try to include " nukes, nerve gas ' etc, it then appears you are in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, by using over reaching arguments. You obviously have no idea why the FF included it, do you?

Your argument was based on the WORDS. The WORD is "arms". It is not "sidearms" or "infantry arms". Just "arms".

You've brought in the "legal scholars", and they're all over the place.

Which demonstrates my point: the Constitution is short, and vague.

What you want to do is assert that the legal scholars that agree with YOU are the only REAL legal scholars. That dog don't hunt. Never has in a democracy.

What makes THOSE legal scholars the right ones?

Now I, personally, take an originalist view. "Arms" means all the arms that the Founding Fathers who wrote those words knew or intuited.

Airplanes did not exist. Atomic bombs, 1000 lb bombs, claymore mines, machine guns - nope, nope, nope.

"Arms" in 1787 meant single-shot black-powder muzzle loading muskets and pistols, shotguns, one-shot muzzle loading black powder long gun hunting rifles, cannons with cannon-balls and grapeshot, mortars with solid rounds, and naval "rockets", which were essentially light mortars and flares. Also swords and knives. Black powder grenades with a fuse one had to light. Dynamite didn't exist yet. Neither did rifled cannon. There were no semi- automatic or automatic anything.

With the weaponry of those times, a man could defend himself against another man or two or three with a single shot gun and a pair of pistols, and then had to rely on the sword.

Those are the "arms" envisioned by the Founders. That's what the word "arms" means in the Constitution.

Those arms have important limitations. They are not very long range. They are slow to reload. One man skilled with gun and sword might be able to defeat a bare handful of other men, often non-lethally.

But one man with a semi-automatic pistol today could take on a squad of Redcoats and win. Modern, rapid-fire, semi-automatic weaponse with magazines and rifled barrels have far greater killing power than the "arms" of the Constitution. And that difference matters.

The "Right to keep and bear arms" arose out of the English Civil War, when an armed British yeomanry was able to bring to heel a better-armed British aristocracy and end the nobility's monopoly of arms. With guns, armor could be penetrated, and the absolute advantage of the armored medieval lord over his unarmored peasants was gone. Any man with a gun could shoot any armored knight out of the saddle. To obtain the basic liberties of the English population (and the French, a little later) required a brutal fight by the mass of men with single-shot muskets. The right to keep and bear arms was intended among the English, and then among the Americans, to maintain that right.

But in those days, a single madman could not enter the local tavern and kill ten people. He could shoot one, and draw a blade on others, and the mass of the men present could physically overpower him.

One man with a gun could not stage a bloody rebellion. He could kill a man or two, and then be cut down.

Today, that is not true. Today, a single deranged nut with a semi-automatic weapon can shoot down a dozen people, reload and continue. One man with an M-16 could take out a British platoon of 1776, at a range where the British could probably not hit him back.

Modern firearms transform what amounts to a COLLECTIVE right to rebellion by amassing many individual men with single shot weapons, into an INDIVIDUAL power of rebellion with firepower that concentrates the force of a colonial company of musketmen into one man.

The political threat to liberty of governments and wealthy nobles with private armies, in 1776 and 1787, was greater than the damage the one lone nut could do with any firearm that existed, then.

But weaponry has evolved, and today, a single nut with a gun can inflict mass casualties all on his own, because he cooks off. People cook off all the time in our modern society also, in part because they CAN.

So, when I read the 2nd Amendment, I see that certainly it refers to the right to keep and bear the weapons of 1789.

I do not, however, see that it was the intent of the Founders for individuals to bear, unregulated, firepower of the sort that exists in 2016, without restraint. In 1789, weapons were not sophisticated enough to produce mass casualty events, the "arms" were single shot.

Would the Founders have given the right to keep MODERN firearms without restriction?

It is impossible to know. One can reason it either way.

And that's my point: the Constitution is not clear.

If it makes you feel good to yell at me that I "have no credibility" because I don't agree with you that the Second Amendment means what you say, then go ahead and feel good. I merely retort that you lack the POWER to impose what is nothing more than your opinion upon the rest of society.

For my part, I tend to be in favor of ease of private ownership of guns, as a practical matter, but I do not acknowledge that the ownership of anything other than single shot black-powder muzzle loading firearms and swords is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

The Second Amendment does not protect individual ownership of semi-automatic weapons (let alone automatic weapons), either from state law or federal.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   13:29:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Vicomte13 (#44)

--- in those days, a single madman could not enter the local tavern and kill ten people. He could shoot one, and draw a blade on others, and the mass of the men present could physically overpower him.

Not true. Even back then a madman could have used a black powder bomb to kill a tavern of people.

One man with a gun could not stage a bloody rebellion. He could kill a man or two, and then be cut down. --- Today, that is not true.

Never has been true. Lone gunmen have never staged rebellions. So much for your historical knowledge...

Today, a single deranged nut with a semi-automatic weapon can shoot down a dozen people, reload and continue.

That's exactly why we all need that same capability.

Give it up, comte, -- you've made a gun grabbing fool of yourself.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-17   14:44:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Vicomte13 (#43)

Yes, Virginia, the ends justify the means.

If it didn't, we could not fight wars.

Not so, wars are usually fought in/for self-defense purposes, especially when one is attacked.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-17   15:21:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: tpaine (#45)

Give it up?

I am more than happy to abandon a pointless conversation that has become abusive.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   17:07:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: TBP (#39)

They ought to take a provision from the Confederate Constitution that required legislation to deal with a single subject.

Let's just try to focus on getting the bastards to obey the existing Constitution first,and then try to get them to improve it later,ok?

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2016-03-17   17:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: tpaine (#45)

Not true. Even back then a madman could have used a black powder bomb to kill a tavern of people.

Or even easier,fire. The taverns were mostly made from wood,and had straw or sawdust on the floors.

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2016-03-17   17:31:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Vicomte13, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#47)

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

nolu chan -- abandons the conversation ...

Vicomte13 -- I am more than happy to abandon a pointless conversation that has become abusive.

The abuse of our Constitution, -- claiming that our rights can be amended away, is not invalidated by using personal observations..

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-18   12:08:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: tpaine (#50)

This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

They can be, they have been, they are being, and they will continue to be.

"I disbelieve!" is a player move in Dungeons and Dragons. Sometimes it works, in that game, to dispel illusions. It doesn't work in real life, though.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   12:46:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

vicomte13 -- I am more than happy to abandon a pointless conversation that has become abusive.

The abuse of our Constitution, -- claiming that our rights can be amended away, is not invalidated by using personal observations. --- And yes, -- after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away.

This fact does not refute my premise that rights CANNOT be amended away, constitutionally...

They can be, they have been, they are being, and they will continue to be.

Yep, it's a fact that people like you advocate ignoring our Constitution. --What you hope to gain is best left to mental health professionals..

"I disbelieve!" is a player move in Dungeons and Dragons. Sometimes it works, in that game, to dispel illusions. It doesn't work in real life, though.

Experts in dungeons and dragons have an illusionist view of real life. --- Perhaps you should stick to playing games.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-18   13:27:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: tpaine (#52)

Perhaps you should stick to playing games.

Like you do with your "Fantasy Island" view of the Constitution.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   14:21:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: tpaine (#40)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

The Constitution does not recognize any such thing as "unalienable" rights. It recognized slavery, and does recognize capital punishment.

Upon certification of ratification, an amendment is part of the Constitution. It does whatever it says it does, and cannot void the entire document.

The Declaration of Independence was a political document, a revolutionary call to arms, and has never asserted any force of law.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-18   16:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13, Stoner (#44)

Some original states did not adopt the common law in their constitution, but all, in their constitution or by statute, adopted such of the English common law that did not conflict with the Constitution or some stated exceptions.

The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated.

The "right to keep and bear arms" existed in the colonies, was brought forth into the states before the union, and was protected by the 2nd Amendment. The right which existed in the colonies came from the English common law. The Framers saw no need to explain to themselves what that right to keep and bear arms was.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-18   16:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nolu chan (#55)

Yes, gun rights are always fraught.

My own view is that of a political horsetrader. I simply do not care about the 2nd Amendment or gay marriage either way. I'm completely indifferent to both.

And THEREFORE these are cards in my hand that I am willing to trade for things that I DO care about. I care most of all about foreign/military policy, because that is the optional expense that either unburdens or crushes a nation's economy.

I am such an enthusiastic supporter of Trump because of his stance on Russia. He is the only one who says the right thing on it.

After that, I think that the social safety net is the most crucial thing. This is a practical decision. If we have good trade and industrial and tax policy, we don't need much of a social safety net because we will be prosperous, but if we have crappy policies, the social safety net mitigates the damage.

On reflection, I guess that the social safety net also overcomes bad foreign policy, so maybe I would move it to number one.

My third position is a social one: pro-life. But to have pro-life policies you have got to have a strong social safety net.

I'm willing to horsetrade 2nd Amendment, gay marriage, Israel and various tax and trade policies to ensure a strong social safety net, good foreign policy and protection of babies.

Most people are fanatics for their issues. So a 2nd Amendment fanatic can find an ally in me, if he'll support a strong social safety net.

The problem with contemporary conservatives like Cruz is that they are maximalists on every position, thinking themselvecs "uncompromising". But that means that they offer me nothing - I'm not going to get good foreign policy, or a good safety net, and I know I'm not going to get good abortion policy out of them because I never do. So they offer nothing.

And therefore marginalize themselves, but think of that as virtue.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-18   17:22:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: nolu chan (#55)

" The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

BINGO !!!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-18   17:33:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: nolu chan (#54)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

And yes, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

The Constitution does not recognize any such thing as "unalienable" rights. It recognized slavery, and does recognize capital punishment.

You're repeating yourself, not debating the issue..

Upon certification of ratification, an amendment is part of the Constitution. It does whatever it says it does, and cannot void the entire document.

According to you, we can then amend away our basic rights, which in effect, would nullify the basic principles behind the document. ---- This is unacceptable logic. --- Try again?

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-19   16:45:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Stoner, Vicente13, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#57)

nolu chan (#55) --- " The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

BINGO !!! -- Stoner

Chan is partially correct, but only as far as he went.

The 14th Amendment prohibited the States from infringing on our basic rights.

-- For some strange reason, both Chan and Vicomte think that States can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights..

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-19   16:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: tpaine (#59)

" For some strange reason, both Chan and Vicomte think that States can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights.. "

Well, me & Sam Colt are never going to agree that ANYONE can infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-19   17:16:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: tpaine (#59)

Well, I agree with Chan; " nolu chan (#55) --- " The 2nd Amendment does not empower the Federal government to protect the right, it prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon it. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. "

Again, Col Sam Colt, Misters Smith & Wesson, John Browning, and Eugene Stoner, et al are on my side of this argument!!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-19   17:22:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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