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LEFT WING LOONS
See other LEFT WING LOONS Articles

Title: You can't love freedom and Confederate monuments
Source: The Times-Picayune
URL Source: http://www.nola.com/politics/index. ... erome_s.html#incart_river_home
Published: Dec 17, 2015
Author: Jarvis DeBerry
Post Date: 2015-12-17 17:51:40 by Willie Green
Keywords: None
Views: 943
Comments: 21

At the beginning of Thursday's meeting in New Orleans City Council chambers to discuss the removal of monuments revering the Lost Cause, the people present were prompted to stand up and say the following familiar words in unison: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

We really could just stop this column right there, couldn't we? Some of the same people who stood to acknowledge the power of a symbol and to declare the nation indivisible later stood to argue that there is no power in Confederate symbols and to argue that those who tested the nation's indivisibility deserve continuing hero status.

Many of us grow used to holding contradictory ideas in tension, but patriotism and treason are wholly incompatible. So are white supremacy and racial reconciliation. But there were people in the City Council chambers insisting that New Orleans can become a city of brotherhood even with statues honoring white supremacists looming over us. The way to this brotherhood, they suggested, requires black people letting the white supremacists remain on their pedestals. But it's been more than 100 years since the statues have been put up, and they have somehow failed to bring together the races.

The council voted 6-1 to remove the monument to P.G.T. Beauregard at the entrance of City Park, the statue to Jefferson Davis near the corner of Canal Street and Jefferson Davis Parkway and the monument at the end of Iberville Street honoring the Battle of Liberty Place. They also voted to remove the statue of Robert E. Lee and rename Lee Circle. Councilwoman Stacy Head was the only nay vote.

Mayor Mitch Landrieu appeared before the council Thursday to urge them to get on the right side of history. "We have the power and we have the right," he said, "to correct these historical wrongs."Landrieu said that the Confederates "were on the wrong side history and humanity" but that when the statue to Lee was put up in 1884, the Daily Picayune explained that they'd been put up so that the world could know "that there dwells no sense of guilt."

That was an important point for the mayor to make, and it's a point that Councilman Jason Williams reiterated later in the meeting: Defenders of the statues tried to keep the focus on the personal biographies of the men honored by the monuments. But you can't understand the monuments without understanding the people who put them up and why they did.

They were put up by white people who refused to accept that the South had lost. They were put up by white people who refused to accept that black people were their equals. They were put up by white people who subjected those black people to Jim Crow.

To leave the statues up would be to honor them.

Jerome Smith was one of the people speaking in favor of the monument removal Thursday. On this topic, I don't know that anybody carries the moral authority that Smith does. As a black child he refused to follow the rules that dictated where he could sit on the streetcar. And as a young man he put his life on the line integrating lunch counters and bus terminal.

Smith began by saying, "It is an embarrassment for me to come to this with my experience."

That sounds a lot like what Smith told Robert Kennedy in a 1963 meeting in New York the then-U.S. attorney general had with civil rights advocates. Smith told Kennedy that being in the room with him made him want to vomit. He apparently meant that having to ask another human being for fair treatment sickened him.

That he was having to ask that such obviously meanspirited monuments be removed seemed to sicken – he used the word embarrass – him in the same way.

Referring to his many arrests, Smith said, "Nobody who put those statues up came to say, 'Don't put that boy in jai! Let him sit at that counter!'"

Of course not. They were all wedded to the status quo, to the idea of white people reigning over black people.

Not surprisingly, Smith went over the 2 minutes he was allotted to address the council. But as security converged on him and audience members shouted support for him, I thought there's a New Orleanian who needs a statue.         

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#1. To: Willie Green (#0)

It appears that Jarvis believes the Civil War was fought over slavery.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it ..."
-- Abraham Lincon, Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862

misterwhite  posted on  2015-12-17   18:05:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: misterwhite (#1) (Edited)

The end of the world anti Christ is ... political - force - power --- to impose their PC religion - beliefs - racial superiority dieversity !

Yes we con ... hoax - chains - blackmail --- white slavery !

He's getting away with it ... because the most knowledgeable people think he is too weak - harmless --- to be the antichrist !

If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2015-12-17   18:18:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: misterwhite (#1) (Edited)

The Civil War was fought over slavery.

Had there been no slavery, there would have been no Civil War.

Southerners did not revolt over tarriffs. They revolted because an abolitionist came to power.

On the granular level, the war was fought because powerful crony capitalists: the slaveholding interests, had money control over all of the Southern state governments, and caused those governments to move for secession and declare the inviolable right of property in slaves.

Was this move in the best interests of the people of those states? No. It was not in the best interests of the blacks, who comprised a little under a third of the population. It was not in the best interests of poor whites, who couldn't get decent jobs in competition with cheap exploitable slave labor. It wasn't in the interest of working class and middle class boys whose families never have and never would own a slave, but who had to carry guns and get shot to pieces to defend the political declarations of corrupt, evil crony capitalist slave interests who controlled the governments of their states. It was not in the interest of all of the mothers who lost children, the wives who lost husbands or the children who lost fathers, fighting to preserve an obnoxious so-called "right" of rich men who had corrupted their governments.

A narrow, rich, powerful interest commandeered government and brought down destruction. And what that powerful interest was focused on, above all, was the economic value of their slave interests.

The war was indeed fought over slavery.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-17   19:17:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13, misterwhite (#3)

The Civil War was fought over slavery.

Lincoln's proclamation referred to interference with the collection of the tax revenue laws, not slavery which was lawful. Had Lincoln intended to make a proclamation against slavery, he could have immediately addressed the slave trade down the road from the White House.

Lincoln's Proclamation of 15 April 1861

Whereas the laws of the United States have been for some time past, and now are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law,

Now therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution, and the laws, have thought fit to call forth, and hereby do call forth, the militia of the several States of the Union, to the aggregate number of seventy-five thousand, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. The details, for this object, will be immediately communicated to the State authorities through the War Department.

I appeal to all loyal citizens to favor, facilitate and aid this effort to maintain the honor, the integrity, and the existence of our National Union, and the perpetuity of popular government; and to redress wrongs already long enough endured.

I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the forces hereby called forth will probably be to re-possess the forts, places, and property which have been seized from the Union; and in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistently with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation, any destruction of, or interference with, property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens in any part of the country.

And I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse, and retire peaceably to their respective abodes within twenty days from this date.

Deeming that the present condition of public affairs presents an extraordinary occasion, I do hereby, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution, convene both Houses of Congress. Senators and Representatives are therefore summoned to assemble at their respective chambers, at 12 o'clock, noon, on Thursday, the fourth day of July, next, then and there to consider and determine, such measures, as, in their wisdom, the public safety, and interest may seem to demand.

In Witness Whereof I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the city of Washington this fifteenth day of April in the year of our Lord One thousand, Eight hundred and Sixtyone, and of the Independence the United States the Eightyfifth.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN

By the President:

WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-12-17   19:35:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Willie Green (#0)

You can't love freedom and Confederate monuments

Confederates can honor their war veterans and love freedom and recognize that the South lost the Civil War which is long over.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-12-17   19:39:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: nolu chan (#5) (Edited)

Confederates can honor their war veterans and love freedom and recognize that the South lost the Civil War which is long over.

Yes, they can. They can put their statues and flags on private lands, and name their homes after whomever they please.

But Southerners can take control of their governments just like the slave interests did, and instead of declaring secession and the sanctity of slavery, declare that the Southern states will not publicly honor people who fought for slavery anymore, and take down the flags and the monuments.

And that's what they're doing.

These things were always symbols. Removing them and changing the names of things is also a symbol.

Two spirits have battled for control of South Carolina since Rutledge signed the Declaration of Independence. One stood for "life, liberty...for ME, and the pursuit of MY happiness...at YOUR expense, nigger". and the other stood for the belief that all men are created equal.

It started out as an unequal fight, with the former voice strong and the latter voice sotto voce. That first voice reached its zenith in 1861 when it unleashed cannonballs at the Federal fort in Charleston Harbor.

The latter voice has grown stronger and stronger, and it achieved mastery this year, when the Confederate flags were taken down from around the capital building in Columbia, never, ever to return.

Now the side of slavery will slink into history and be remembered like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades or Auschwitz: evil losers.

Two spirits contended for the soul of South Carolina. Eventually, the better spirit won.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-17   19:49:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#6)

They can put their statues and flags on private lands, and name their homes after whomever they please.

Or they can keep their statues and flags wherever they damn well please, and keep the names of the streets just as they are. It's nobody else's business.

Or they can be like St. John's and rename their teams from the Redmen to the Red Storm in the interest of political correctness.

Of course we could disown Washington and Jefferson and Madison, and that former slavedriver Sam Grant whose wife visited him during the war, accompanied by one of her slaves. And then there was Jackson. Heck, we might have to put nothing but New England liberals on our money.

Now the side of slavery will slink into history and be remembered like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades or Auschwitz: evil losers.

We haven't had legal slavery since the 13th Amendment forced the Union state of Delaware to end it against their will.

The civil war started out as a fight for tax revenue. Slavery continued in Washington, D.C. where the Congress had plenary authority and only the Union states were represented. They could have ended slavery there at any time they wanted without a constitutional amendment.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-12-18   0:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Willie Green (#0) (Edited)

The confederacy consisted of a series of myths expounded by both sides. The South created myths to perpetuate a system of European feudalism. The North needed myths to build slogans on which to motivate a war. The idea of stiffling feudalism was never mentioned by Northern politicians, including Lincoln. There were two massive armies fighting each other for no good reason.

rlk  posted on  2015-12-18   1:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: nolu chan (#7)

Or they can keep their statues and flags wherever they damn well please, and keep the names of the streets just as they are. It's nobody else's business.

It's the business of the government and the voters of the city or state. As time marches on, more and more of those governments and voters have turned against Confederate symbols and what the Confederacy stood for and did, and what that flag flew over AFTER the Confederacy, in the 1950s and 1960s, when it became a symbol for maintaining racial segregation.

When the voters turn in sufficient numbers against it, the duly elected governments move, and what was put up as a monument to one side, when they were in the ascendant, is taken down by their enemies when they come into the ascendant as they are.

The statues and flags in the public square are put there by the public. Names of public streets and squares are put there by the public. A different public in a different time can change the names and pull down the statues.

There were statues of King George on the commons of the major cities in America before the Revolution. They were all pulled down.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-18   8:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: nolu chan (#7)

The civil war started out as a fight for tax revenue.

Do you really, in your heart of hearts, actually, truly believe that the South seceded and fought over taxes?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-18   8:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Willie Green (#0)

You can't love freedom and Confederate monuments

So if you believe in the states rights that makes you hate freedom?

Oh please more clap trap single minded bs that the uncivil war was fought over slavery and only slavery! Really? Then all those stupid white southern dirty farms love competing against slave labor farmers so much that they gave up everything including their family and life to stand with slavemasters who themselves did not fight!

Justified  posted on  2015-12-18   8:48:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Willie Green (#0)

They were put up by white people

Which is the entire reason the blacks want them torn down. Simply put,they hate adn fear white people.

This is institutionalized black racism with the seal of Government Approval.

BTW,"one nation,indivisable..." is a bunch of horseshit that is contrary to the true history of the creation of this country,where the 13 original colonies VOLUNTARILY joined together to create a united nation,WITH THE STIPULATION THEY COULD WITHDRAW IF ANY OF THE AGREEMENTS REACHED WERE LATER VIOLATED.

The only people who are so stupid as to not know this are AA graduates with degrees in Black History.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-18   9:45:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: misterwhite (#1)

It appears that Jarvis believes the Civil War was fought over slavery.

Of course he does. He is black,therefore he never had to learn anything to graduate.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-18   9:47:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#3)

The Civil War was fought over slavery.

Had there been no slavery, there would have been no Civil War.

COmplete and utter horseshit.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-18   9:48:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Justified (#11)

So if you believe in the states rights that makes you hate freedom?

If you believe in the states' rights to establish slavery, and to racially segregate people, then yes, your belief in states rights makes you hate freedom.

Fundamental equality before the law - no slavery, no segregation - supersedes states rights. It must. In our history, it DIDN'T, for a long time, and "States Rights!" was the argument put forward to defend oppression. Racial issues were the very epicenter of the words "States Rights" for most of our history.

This is why "States Rights" coupled with defense of the Confederacy hits a brick wall. If "States Rights" still mean the things the Confederacy fought for, then they will stay buried, and should.

The majority can be persuaded that the states need broad latitude of action to act as workshops of democracy - that sort of states rights on regulatory issues is a reasonable argument. But the minute that things start getting a Neo- Confederate odor, the whole thing looks like a Trojan Horse to try to keep fighting the old fights.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-18   10:03:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: sneakypete (#12)

Which is the entire reason the blacks want them torn down. Simply put,they hate adn fear white people.

This is institutionalized black racism with the seal of Government Approval.

Blacks want them torn down because the Confederacy was their mortal enemy, and the people who led the Confederacy were their enemies. So yes, of course the Blacks want to see all honor given to the Confederacy wiped out, all of the recognition bulldozed.

And where the Blacks are the political majority, they do exactly that, as is their right in a democracy.

But where these things are removed in polities that do not have black majorities, it is because people other than blacks agree with them and take the same position. That's democracy.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-18   10:15:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: sneakypete (#14)

COmplete and utter horseshit.

Over what would they have fought? What would have impassioned people to the point of taking up arms?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-12-18   10:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

If you believe in the states' rights to establish slavery, and to racially segregate people, then yes, your belief in states rights makes you hate freedom.

So its your belief that poor white dirt farmers wanted slavery? They loved it so much that they were willing die to keep it running so they could make slave wages competing against the big slave farms?

Yes the southern people were terrified of having millions of ex-slaves running around causing havoc. Especially when 90% of them had nothing to do with slavery and less than 10% of the south even owned slaves. Almost all the slave owners where plantations with 1000's of slaves. Remember slaves cost more than horse back then. You could buy 2 horses or one slave?

To the northern people uncivil war was about slavery and to the south it was states rights and freedom from an oppressive centralized government. South was right about what would happen if centralized government took over. It just enslaved everyone that is not filthy rich. The only difference now and then is that we have a new slave master!

Justified  posted on  2015-12-18   10:22:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#3)

"The Civil War was fought over slavery."

Then why did the government wait until 1861 to do something about it?

A tariff increase was approved in 1861. Shortly after, war was declared.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-12-18   14:06:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#16)

Blacks want them torn down because the Confederacy was their mortal enemy, and the people who led the Confederacy were their enemies

BullBush! They want them torn down because they have the IQ of rain frogs,and are completely ignorant of history.

BTW,so are you. The Confederacy didn't create slavery,and didn't enslave a single black. It was black Africans that did this.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-18   17:40:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

Over what would they have fought?

Being held against their will in a union they were promised they could leave at will,and then being invaded by what amounted to a foreign army bent on enslaving them.

I doubt 10 percent of the white people in the south or wearing the uniform of the Confederacy owned slaves.

Also,there were yankees that held slaves right up until after the war was over and they were forced to free them. One was a General named US Grant. Maybe you have heard of him?

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-12-18   17:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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