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Title: The Rifles Of The Next Civil War
Source:
BearingArms.com
URL Source: http://bearingarms.com/rifles-next-civil-war/
Published: Dec 10, 2015
Author: Bob Owens
Post Date: 2015-12-16 01:04:03 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 7937
Comments: 40
Two days ago I wrote a post gaming out the gun control fantasies being called for by the left-leaning mainstream media. I basically allowed for a scenario where President Obama made executive orders based upon two recent calls by New York-based media outlets, one following through on the Daily News desire to brand all National Rifle Association members as terrorists, and the other on the Times call to make common firearms illegal. In my scenario, I imagined a very brief, lenient, and indeed hopeful turn of events where Congress, most state governors, law enforcement officers, the military, and even Vice President Biden all honored their oaths to defend the Constitution, not any particular government or President. A rogue President was taken into custody and impeached without a single life lost on either side. I’ve since been criticized for creating a too-happy and too peaceful scenario that is simply not realistic. Sadly, I know the critics are very likely right. Most people tend to do what is easiest, not what is right. Many politicians, law enforcement officers, members of the military and civilians would do precisely as they were ordered there was an attempt to ban entire classes of firearms and order them confiscated, leading to either a revolutionary or (more than likely) a civil war. As Kevin Williamson notes at National Review, we’re presently practicing “Irish democracy” in many states with strict gun control. Citizens simply ignore absurd laws. Things would change if government actually attempted to enforce those laws, and it would not be pretty. The prospect of the local-yokel police in Sunnyvale, Calif., going door to door, Fallujah-style, trying to collect nonconforming firearms is humorous to contemplate; contemplating the same sort of development in Texas or Wyoming is rather less amusing, because at that point the model of resistance would stop being Irish democracy and almost certainly would mutate into something a lot more like Lexington and Concord. No decent, patriotic person wants to see that. If that nightmare comes to pass, we’re going to see a lot of the following guns in the news, if the news isn’t censored into meaninglessness. The M4 is a selective-fire military carbine chambered in 5.56 NATO, used by the United States military and some local and federal law enforcement officers. In the event of a significant failure of civility, we’re assured of seeing Colt and FN M4 carbines, along with aging M16 rifles, being used by “loyalist” forces in the military and police. There are something less than three million of these that can be pressed into service by government forces, enough to ensure that it would be the primary issue rifle of the loyalists. It has the advantage of being selective-fire, and it can be used as a machine gun. Many others will be stolen from armories by soldiers and law enforcement officers defecting to the Constitutionalist rebels. AR-15s are the most common centerfire rifles sold in the United States year in and year out. They are the “modern musket,” for a modern militia. The most common rifle among “rebel” forces—which would also include many law enforcement officers and soldiers who took their oaths to defend the constitution seriously—would be the ubiquitous semi-automatic AR-15. There are at least 8 million AR-15s in the hands of Americans right now, and that number increases by several thousand rifles nationwide every single day. While the military M4s are often heavily worn and built to a bare standard by the lowest bidder, many civilian AR-15s are much more accurate and robust rifles, and can be had in a vast array of calibers, some of which double the effective range of the military 5.56 round. People tend to forget that bolt-action rifles have a military pedigree. Common “deer rifles” pack for more punch and have longer range the rifles commonly issued in modern militaries, and and are typically equipped with telescopic sights. AR-15s and M4s would likely be the primary weapons used in such a regrettable civil war, but they would not likely have as much of a political impact as the bolt-action rifles pressed into duty as long-range assassination weapons. Rifles in common deer hunting calibers have effective an effective range of 1,000+ yards, and would assuredly be used by guerrilla forces to terminate political leaders and loyalist forces from considerable distances. The semi-automatic AKM is very popular among Americans as an alternative to the AR-15, and while quality on some imported rifles can be spotty, well-made AKMs can be accurate to 700+ meters in the right hands. The AKM is the next-most-common single style of centerfire semi-automatic rifle in the United States behind the AR-15, with millions in circulation. Very common variants can be found with folding stocks and as pistols, and would almost certainly be exploited for hit and run guerrilla attacks. I’m probably going to end up back on the terror watch list for pointing this out again, but incredibly common .22LR rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 (top) and the Marlin Model 60 (bottom) are incredibly useful in all sorts of guerrilla operations from close-range assassination to damaging vehicles and critical civilian infrastructure. Leftists love to talk about how a totalitarian President would have tanks and jets and drones at their disposal against the militia, but they simply betray the fact that they know next to nothing about modern warfare. You can’t use such weapons when the enemy is hidden among civilians, which would certainly and intentionally be the case. Modern insurgencies fought by reasonably intelligent people won’t see large groups of rebels forming up to be easily exploited targets for heavy weapon systems. You’ll see small cells appear out of the crowd, hit a specific target with overwhelming ferocity, and then disband and melt away before an effective counterattack is possible. Such a conflict will be ugly, costly and brutal, which is why any sane person would want to avoid pitting the government against a citizenry that both greatly outnumbers and outarms them in terms of usable weapons. War is incredibly ugly, civil wars even more so. Let’s avoid infringing upon the rights of American citizens, so we don’t have to expose our children to that firsthand.
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#1. To: All, sneakypete, BobCeleste (#0)
I saw this and thought you guys (and some others) might enjoy it. I liked the argument at the end that a dictator-president couldn't use jets and drones and nukes and tanks to stop any foreseeable American civil war. We don't hear this angle much but it is at least arguable.
Tucker Carlson was on the Alex Jones show recently and he was pushing the Rossi .357 Magnum/.38 Special, lever rifle. Saying that it's flat shooting, and that the round is one of the least likely to become unavailable. It's also less threatening than those scary black guns. Carlson claims to have an arsenal at his compound in Maine. Probably an arsenal of bow ties. : ) Even so, that is an interesting pick for a general-use gun. It has a number of positives. Ammo availability, repairability, ability to own it in restrictive antigun Blue states, etc.
I like the argument,but don't see it as being realistic. When and IF it is ever "us against them",the ruling elites will use ever power at their command to protect themselves and stay in power. They might not be willing to use those "tools" against innocent civilians in the Muddle East where there is no one at risk but mere soldiers,but put them and their families at risk and nothing can or will be ruled out. They are simply not used to being the ones put at risk,and they are not going to tolerate it if it happens. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
We have o lot of data from the past to show whether and to what extent a declining power elite can be brutal or rather it is the rebels who are worse. Let us take an example of French Revolution - the King and his friends were quite timid and moderate. It was the revolutionaries that were cruel and bloodthirsty. Read how they massacred peasants of Vendee. Those who are in power tend to feel almighty and to inspire this perception in the minds of their adversaries. Yet they are human same way as everybody else. Their position is based on the traditional respect and consent of the ruled. If they forget that they doom themselves. Christians should pray for their governments and respect them. Rulers should in their turn struggle to limit their own pride and treat those below as their brothers. As it is written in the Scriptures.
Interesting article.
Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
Not exactly what I or most men in Maine would consider low end, price wise: 528126077 Rossi R92-56018 92 16" 357 Magnum Stainless 0 $519.00 I would love to see Hi Point come out with a .357/.38 Special carbine and handgun combo for under $400. Eli, Eli, nai erchomai Kurios Iesous.
Interesting list. But the author failed to list Fal's, M1-A's, CETME's, and a few other possibilities.
Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
Yeah but that is what makes this a good kickoff thread for discussing the topic in general. Like with fantasy football, everyone can make their own favorites list.
Tucker is a tony yuppie snob. So he probably considers that price to be bargain basement. Even so, it's fun that he took on this topic a bit. Hey, someone's got to pick a weapon they favor and argue its merits. Tucker's choice does fit in well if you think Civil War II will be mostly fought with shotguns, .22s, deer rifles, pistols and the like. They are still the vast majority of American weapons owned by civilians. The military rifles are a distinct minority. Tucker isn't going to go with the military weapons, just not his style or cultural outlook. Tucker's choice may not be the best one for CW2 but it isn't the worst either. Good arguments can be made both for and against his pick(s).
Old dude loves shooting that lever action rifle. It is an American classic. It's not hard to see Tucker owning some of these, probably some of the collectible originals too since Tucker is pretty rich. I've seen the old dude's gun videos before. He's always well-informed and having fun with guns, emphasizing safety.
Well, I am partial to the M-1A, with the AR-15 next in line. If in a stationary position, I would pick the M-1A, if I have to hump it, I'll take the AR. Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
I can't see fat and obese American middle aged men rising up against the US military - which is a brutal high tech killing machine. When the air war against Serbia was failing the US Air Force was more than happy to bomb and sink a bridge full of Sunday traffic and to bomb office building and office structures and kill civilians and black out whole cities. Also, why is it assumed its Americans who will rise up against the Federal govt? Even the most anti govt conservatives tend to be hypocrites and live off some form of govt money - say a military pension or some such. If anything the real threat I see is from ethnic separatists like we saw in Kosovo by Albanians against Serbs. I am not a Yugoslav but I think the Yugoslav example is the future for many future scenarios. Let us say there really is an elite that needs to be uprising against and its thee suburban or rural whites who are the ones uprising (and not Mexicans on the border who actually have ethnic and historic land claims) then the elites while just do to them what the Brits did to the Boers. I think such an uprising by the "Don't Tread On Us" Tea Party crowd would follow the Boer war example. Some initial victories that embarrass the empire followed by the empire getting serious and brutal (complete with internment camps given a Orwellian name like refugee camp), etc. It would be over in 2 to 3 years. This just white, suburban talk show radio fantasies about a revolt. If the Confederacy, which produced the finest military a rebellion has ever seen, could not defeat the Union then I doubt any modern attempt at rebellion would do any better. At best we may get some sort of IRA type of terrorist activity - like the elites care if pipe bombs will shake their rule. The Queen still rules Northern Ireland.
When the Revolution comes, I'm going to report you for seditious remarks to General Tucker "Blood and Guts" Carlson, the Terror of the Catskills.
I will rise up if it does not disturb my Sunday football viewing. Can we have a part time armed uprising? Maybe use paintballs?
For survival reasons only - if you have to bug out on foot - then you should pick a rifle that can share ammo with a handgun and preferably one that does not use magazines since they add weight. So a lever or pump action rifle and revolver handgun. For military uprising reasons - having an army of ad hoc militiamen all showing up with different rifles and ammo needs is just amatur hour.
I believe we will find out in the next 12 months what CW2 will be fought with. And, it may be over faster than most think, it could be over before many even know what happens. At least in Maine. keep in mind, we dropped the idea of having a vote for secession, we have not dropped the idea of of being free, seceding. Eli, Eli, nai erchomai Kurios Iesous.
It is a good argument. Also, it's great for all those reloader types who love to roll up special rounds. I think Tucker may like the Rossi but I bet he has some of the high-dollar collectible lever-action rifles out at his lodge too. It's the kind of thing a guy like Tucker would have.
Shooting at Russians with a Marlin 336C lever action rifle. Red Dawn - 1984. Wolverines! I'll see your Wolverine pussies and raise you a Rifleman massacre!
In what caliber there are so many to choose from nowadays??? Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
5.56x45 / .223 Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
Is that because that ammunition is readily available or that is what you have?? There are other rounds that are better like the 6.5 or 6.8... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
I don't know if it's better. The default AR-15 seems to be .223 Remington or 5.56×45mm NATO. You have to look for an AR-15 that doesn't come in one of those calibers. The NATO round is very close but not the same as the standard .223 Remington. Wiki says that the standard barrel has changed over the years and the NATO countries were always finicky about specification. So they seem interchangeable but aren't really identical. A gun nut friend of mine explained it to me before. He said you should pick one or the other, not pretend that the two really are exactly the same.
He's right you don't want to use a .223 round in a 5.56 chambered weapon, not the healthiest thing to do for you or your weapon... The reason being a 5.56 chambered weapon has a "looser/bigger" chamber than a .223 weapon. For this reason the 5.56 rounds have much thicker brass to be able to cope with the bigger chamber. If you use a "thin walled brass .223 round in a 5.56 chambered weapon the case could over expand, rupture and cause "one mell of a hess" with the weapon and maybe with you... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
Both are much heavier rounds (I.E. more stopping power) and can fit in a standard AR magazine, the 6.8 is for closer ranges (400yds or less) and the 6.5 is much better at longer ranges (400yds or more)... Swapping over isn't that big of a deal and is cheaper than buying a full weapon when you only need to change Uppers and BCGs and "sometimes" the buffer... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
There are other rounds that are better like the 6.5 or 6.8... " I guess a little of both. I am not about to get rid of everything and start over. As to better rounds, I have read about those. They sound good, but do not excite me enough to go to the expense of "re tooling " If my AR does not cut it, I'll just use .308, .30-06. My wife & daughters have .243's, and are good with them. My favorite is the 30-06, or .308 Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
If you're in a Lone Ranger situation only, then that may be true. If you are part of a military unit, standardization for parts and ammo have big benefits we don't need to enumerate here. After all, we are talking about weapons for CW2. Or at least that is where we started from.
What you say is true Uncle. But, I have fired a lot of .223 thru AR's, and I know many others have done so as well, no problemo. I did buy a Savage 340 one time that the dealer told me had been rechambered to .223. Cases kept splitting. My smith told me it was still chambered to .222 Remington. He rechambered it for me. End of problem. If I ever buy another upper, I will most likely get it from Rock River, and get the Wylde Chamber, w a 24 " 1/8 or 1/9 tube. I would look at DPMS if they offer the Wylde. I will stay with .223 / 5.56. Since I already have enough caliber "diversity" I prefer to keep logistics simple. If I was starting from scratch, I might look at the others you talked about. Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
For varmint or long range target?? Chrome lined or nitrided stainless?? Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
You reload? Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
" For varmint or long range target?? " Both " Chrome lined or nitrided stainless?? " Most likely stainless Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
Yeah, used to. Have not do so in years. But I still have my gear. Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
Yeah the nitrided stainless will last much longer and be more accurate... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
Asking the question, I assume you reload. What kind of gear do you use, progressive or single stage? Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
No I don't get the chance to shoot that much so don't feel the need, besides I have a friend that does and if I need something special I can call him...
Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
In reality the old gunfighting west was safer than many American urban centers today and the towns had stricter gun control laws. The gunfight at the OK Corral was over gun confiscation.
I used to have a Ruger 10-22 with a stainless steel barrel
Pretty gun, looks like it would shoot well. I can see why you miss it. My brother says never sell a gun. I hate to admit he's probably right.
It did shoot well.
#2. To: TooConservative, BobCeleste, *Bang List* (#0)
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#3. To: hondo68 (#2)
(Edited)
Carlson claims to have an arsenal at his compound in Maine.
#4. To: TooConservative (#1)
I liked the argument at the end that a dictator-president couldn't use jets and drones and nukes and tanks to stop any foreseeable American civil war.
#5. To: sneakypete, TooConservative, Vicomte13, Pericles (#4)
When and IF it is ever "us against them",the ruling elites will use ever power at their command to protect themselves and stay in power.
#6. To: TooConservative (#0)
#7. To: hondo68 (#2)
#8. To: TooConservative (#0)
#9. To: Stoner (#8)
Interesting list. But the author failed to list Fal's, M1-A's, CETME's, and a few other possibilities.
#10. To: BobCeleste (#7)
Not exactly what I or most men in Maine would consider low end, price wise:
#11. To: hondo68 (#2)
#12. To: TooConservative (#9)
#13. To: TooConservative, A Pole (#1)
(Edited)
#14. To: Pericles (#13)
Also, why is it assumed its Americans who will rise up against the Federal govt? Even the most anti govt conservatives tend to be hypocrites and live off some form of govt money - say a military pension or some such.
#15. To: TooConservative (#14)
When the Revolution comes, I'm going to report you for seditious remarks to General Tucker "Blood and Guts" Carlson, the Terror of the Catskills.
#16. To: TooConservative (#10)
Even so, it's fun that he took on this topic a bit. Hey, someone's got to pick a weapon they favor and argue its merits.
#17. To: TooConservative (#10)
#18. To: Pericles (#16)
For survival reasons only - if you have to bug out on foot - then you should pick a rifle that can share ammo with a handgun and preferably one that does not use magazines since they add weight. So a lever or pump action rifle and revolver handgun.
#19. To: TooConservative, Pericles, BobCeleste (#10)
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#20. To: hondo68 (#19)
#21. To: Stoner (#12)
with the AR-15 next in line.
#22. To: CZ82 (#21)
" In what caliber "
#23. To: Stoner (#22)
#24. To: CZ82, Stoner (#23)
#25. To: TooConservative (#24)
(Edited)
not pretend that the two really are exactly the same.
#26. To: TooConservative (#24)
I don't know if it's better.
#27. To: CZ82 (#23)
" Is that because that ammunition is readily available or that is what you have??
#28. To: CZ82 (#26)
Both are much heavier rounds (I.E. more stopping power) and can fit in a standard AR magazine, the 6.8 is for closer ranges (400yds or less) and the 6.5 is much better at longer ranges (400yds or more)...
#29. To: CZ82 (#25)
#30. To: Stoner (#29)
(Edited)
w a 24 " 1/8 or 1/9 tube.
#31. To: Stoner (#27)
They sound good, but do not excite me enough to go to the expense of "re tooling "
#32. To: CZ82 (#30)
#33. To: CZ82 (#31)
" You reload? "
#34. To: Stoner (#32)
Most likely stainless
#35. To: CZ82 (#31)
" You reload? "
#36. To: Stoner (#35)
#37. To: TooConservative (#20)
#38. To: TooConservative (#0)
and a walnut stock. I never should have sold that thing. 
#39. To: Chuck_Wagon (#38)
#40. To: TooConservative (#39)
...looks like it would shoot well.
I and my neighbors used to target to target practice
in our back yards in South Carolina.
Which I'm pretty sure was illegal.
But there was a pretty good stretch of woods,
so it was pretty safe.
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