LF: Rapist cop, 29, WAILS in court as he is found guilty of sexually assaulting at least 13 black women while on-duty - including teen girl and a grandmother

Title: Rapist cop, 29, WAILS in court as he is found guilty of sexually assaulting at least 13 black women while on-duty - including teen girl and a grandmother - and now faces up to 263 years in prison
Source: Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... aping-13-black-women-duty.html
Published: Dec 11, 2015
Author: Wills Robinson For Dailymail.com and Ass
Post Date: 2015-12-11 09:05:07 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 22328
Comments: 88

A former Oklahoma City police officer has been found guilty of attacking at least 13 black women - including teenagers and a grandmother - in the neighborhood he patrolled.

Daniel Holtzclaw was convicted by the all-white jury of eight men and four women on Thursday evening after four days of deliberations.

The 29-year-old ex-officer broke down in tears as he was found guilty on 18 counts - including rape, sexual battery and forcible oral sodomy - against eight of the women who testified against him.

His supporters also sobbed as the judge went through the verdicts on what happened to be his 29th birthday.

Some of the victims' supporters reportedly sang Happy Birthday to him as they gathered outside the courthouse.

Holtzclaw's defense attorneys tried to comfort him as he nodded his head up and down while shaking his head in disbelief. As he stood up to be handcuffed by court officers, he shouted: 'I didn't do it.'

He was found not guilty on 18 of the charges, but still faces a recommended 263 years in prison.

Holtzclaw, who turned 29 Thursday, could now spend the rest of his life in prison. He was remanded in custody and is set to be sentenced in January.

The Oklahoma City Police Department welcomed the verdict. Bill Citty said in a statement Thursday night that the trial of former officer Daniel Holtzclaw was 'long and difficult' for all involved. He says he's proud of his detectives and local prosecutors.

He called Holtzclaw's case the worst he'd seen in nearly four decades in law enforcement.

The mother of the youngest accuser clapped as the verdicts were read out. She said she went to the courthouse to hear the verdict, but found the doors locked - but was able to race home in time to see it on TV.

The grandmother whose allegations led authorities to launch an investigation was in the courtroom at the time.

She was the first to testify, telling the court Holtzclaw pulled her over as she was driving home late at night and ordered her out of her car.

He then told her to sit in the backseat of his squad car, where he stood over her and told her to perform oral sex.

She notified police officers hours later, launching a case in which 12 other women eventually came forward.

The woman was tearful after the verdict and prayed with supporters outside the courtroom.

The victims say they met Holtzclaw while he was on duty, and prosecutors say the ex-officer intimidated them into not reporting his crimes.

Holtzclaw's lawyer, Scott Adams, told jurors Holtzclaw was an honorable but naive officer trying to help troubled women who lied about him, and made their credibility the cornerstone of his defense strategy.

Adams called just one witness, an ex-girlfriend of the officer, before resting his case. A total of 13 women testified against him.

Since the trial began November 2, many of the women's descriptions had traced a similar arc: The officer stopped them while out on patrol, ran background checks for outstanding warrants or conducted searches that turned up drug paraphernalia, then forced them to have sex to avoid arrest.

Most said they never reported the assaults to authorities for fear no one would believe them.

Video courtesy of NewsOk.com

His father Eric Holtzclaw (left) holds his wife, Kumiko Holtzclaw (right) as the verdicts are read

He covered his face as he stood to his feet and made his way to face the judge

Holtzclaw continued crying as court officers dragged him out of the courtroom to the jail cells

Supporters of the cop's victims pray outside the courtroom. Some (not pictured) reportedly sang Happy Birthday as the verdicts were read out

'What's the good of telling the police? What kind of police do you call on the police?' asked one woman, who sobbed as she testified Tuesday that Holtzclaw pulled down her shorts and raped her on her mother's front porch when she was 17.

An expert testified that the girl's DNA was found inside the crotch of Holtzclaw's police uniform.

Another victim was a fifty-something grandmother.

The vulnerability of victims was a common thread in a recent Associated Press investigation that found about 1,000 officers nationwide had lost their badges in a six-year period for sexual assault and sex-related misconduct.

Hundreds were convicted, but many others were never prosecuted.

Judge Timothy Henderson had little to say after the verdicts were read out. He said Holtzclaw would be sentenced in January

Assault: Daniel Ken Holtzclaw, 29, was accused of 36 charges by 13 women, including rape and oral sodomy. He was found guilty on 18 charges and not guilty on the other half

Throughout the trial, Adams challenged the accusers' credibility, enumerating their arrest records, searching for inconsistencies in their stories and questioning why most didn't come forward until police investigators approached them.

He also noted that some had filed civil lawsuits against the city.

'You could have called anybody at 911 and said: "Not only was I raped by an Oklahoma City police officer, but I have DNA evidence all over the place in my room," 'Adams challenged one witness, after reading her criminal history to the court.

He focused especially on the women's use of drugs. Under Adams' questioning, one woman acknowledged she had slipped out of the motel room prosecutors had arranged for her the night before and procured marijuana and the hallucinogen PCP. She slurred some words, but denied being high on the witness stand and stood by her accusations.

Several of the women pushed back. 'I'm really getting upset by the way you're coming after me,' said the youngest accuser, who is now 18.

Prosecutors did not try to hide the witnesses' backgrounds, asking each about hers before Adams' cross-examination. They turned to relatives and friends who recalled the women telling them about the attacks. They also called police investigators and forensic experts to corroborate the women's claims.

After the first accuser came forward, police examined searches Holtzclaw made in police databases and data from his vehicle's locator device.

Detective Kim Davis, who led the investigation, testified GPS records showed, for example, that Holtzclaw was parked outside one woman's home for an unusually long time for someone he was supposedly dropping off. Davis described meeting with the woman four months later, and when Davis asked if the woman knew why they were meeting, 'She said, 'How do you know? Did he confess?' '

Adams employed a strategy used by other lawyers who have successfully defended officers accused of rape.

In 2012, an Oklahoma jury took just 40 minutes to acquit Stephens County sheriff's deputy Brandon Balthrop of assaulting two women and a teenager during traffic stops. Balthrop's attorney, Jim Kee, said he highlighted problems with each accuser's story, from inconsistencies in testimony to one's criminal record and drug abuse. He said Adams appeared to use the same approach.

Balthrop later surrendered his law enforcement license and had his case file expunged. The county settled federal lawsuits by paying the women $215,000.

In October, a Florida jury acquitted Stephen Maiorino of raping a 20-year-old woman, despite statements by the judge that evidence of rape was 'overwhelming.'

The former officer's lawyers argued the sex was consensual; the accuser was led crying from the courtroom after the verdict. The city later agreed to an $875,000 settlement with the woman.

Holtzclaw was placed on administrative leave and eventually arrested, after investigators used GPS tracking devices to corroborate the stories of his victims

'There's a lot of deference and respect given to law enforcement,' said Florida state's attorney Dave Aronberg, whose office prosecuted the former Boynton Beach officer. 'There's just this assumption that you want to believe him.'

Holtzclaw's case has attracted attention from clergy and activists, who've been especially critical of the makeup of the eight-man, four-woman jury, which appears to be all white. Oklahoma court officials could not provide jurors' race.

Valeria Benabdallah, an Oklahoma City psychotherapist who attended part of the trial, said she was uncomfortable because jurors were being asked to judge a black female witness 'pleading for her innocence.'

More than 50 people marched outside one day, chanting, 'We want life!' loudly enough to be heard inside the courtroom.

'I can't order you to not hear it, but you understand that has nothing to do with what goes on in this courtroom,' Judge Tim Henderson instructed jurors.

Holtzclaw's sister and his father, a police officer in Enid, have been a constant presence during the trial, and other family members and friends have attended.

One former high school football teammate said he was convinced of Holtzclaw's innocence. 'He's not that type of guy,' Jarred Benton said.

My best recollection of a significant moment was that after the criminal trial, a photo emerged of O.J. depicting him wearing a pair of Bruno Magli shoes, the type assertedly identified by a shoeprint at the scene of the crime. This was a point made in testimony at the civil trial.

I can only observe that it was accepted at the trial and apparently not effectively refuted by the defense. Few defendants can afford an OJ Dream Team who have the legal and scientific expertise to effectively challenge the asserted science. There is no way for the reader to judge it independently.

The same may be said for fingerprint/handprint/palmprint comparisons, or handwriting comparisons, or lie detector tests. Trials are plagued with bogus science and bogus testimony, aka testilying.

Certainly the article avoided any mention of the character of the DNA sample. This is so typical of trial reporting.

I generally answer whatever is asked, because, really, what difference does it make, but why do you ask?

My answer: there is a song from World War II called "Bless 'Em All". It reflects the GI's attitudes about seeing women, any women, in the war.

What sort of women do I like physically? Most. All races. Most shapes and sizes. Not obese. Not anorexic. As I get older, I appreciate older without losing my appreciation for younger. Pretty "catholic" really, in the original sense of the word.

As far as personality goes, it doesn't matter, really. Personality is malleable. People's personalities change depending on who they're dealing with and why.

Lest I sound like a comparison shopper (or perhaps just a conscientious consumer), truth is, I've been married for a long time, and I'm monogamous in practice, so it's an academic question.

In my 20s, when I was not married, my answer would have been very straightforward - I liked any woman who liked me, to the full extent that she liked me, and more than that, if I could get away with it.

But that is many years ago. And I've got a daughter, so I give her good advice, because I know what I'm talking about: I was the sort of guy that I warn her about.

If he is guilty and has nothing to offer beyond saying he didn't do it, his best hope is to not testify and hope his attorney planted a reasonable doubt in one juror. Not testifying may have been the best available call. At least he did not screw up any possible appellate issues, if there are any.

If he's guilty, yes. And he is guilty. The jury found him so. The evidence says so. He's guilty.

I agree that, given his guilt, the only thing to do was to not put him on the stand.

The discussion began up thread with the assertion by someone that he probably WASN'T guilty, to which I responded with a PSHAW. If he WASN'T guilty, then his attorney committed malpractice by not having him testify, because on this stack of evidence, the only hope an innocent man has is to tell the jury he didn't do it, and endure cross to prove it.

We had the necessary shadow-boxing up-thread about presumption of innocence and no presumption of guilt from silence, and that's all well, but with 18 direct eyewitness victim accusers testifying, AND phone location data, and DNA-in-the-crotch data, the guy was proven guilty by a mountain of evidence UNLESS the defense could demonstrate that the victims were lying. That can be done with two or three, but EIGHTEEN? ALL of them were dirty lying conniving whores? And where was the blackmail note...from ANY of them? Where is the lawsuit against the city? 18 marginal people brilliantly conspired to bring down a nobody cop, to be able to sue the city? Where's the lawyer that organized them.

You have to spin utter fables to be believable - and to do it, you have to stand there in front of a jury that has lots of women in it, and serially accuse 18 rape victims of all being liars and whores.

There is no presumption in law that says that just because a defense attorney stands up there and bellows bullshit that the jury has to believe him. There is a presumption of innocence, but there is no presumption of TRUTH. There is no presumption that, just because the defense lawyer spins a tale, that therefore the jurors have to treat that tale as reasonable doubt.

The JURORS get to decide what is reasonable, and it is utterly unreasonable to think that EIGHTEEN down and out women, unorganized by any plaintiff lawyer, decided to take time out of their miserable lives to come down and get abused and called liars in open court while telling of a humiliating rape by a cop, and then being gutted about their personal sexual pasts.

The fact of EIGHTEEN accusers, each of whom withstood cross, is a mountainous pile of evidence. And then there's the phone data. And the DNA. And it all corroborates the EIGHTEEN accusers.

Sure, we don't PRESUME guilt from silence. Guilt has been PROVEN by the EVIDENCE - it is a towering pile. The presumption was overcome by evidence. Now the defendant needs to convince us that he's NOT the serial rapist that the evidence shows, because the jury is convinced that he is by the evidence. Why is that not so?

I suppose he can claim that he was badly represented...tough to do when you've hired a successful name lawyer.

So, now the ex-cop faces an interesting life. He's been broken in regular society, and his excessive sex drive destroyed him. But on the positive side, he need no longer worry about paying bills and earning a living. He is effectively retired, with housing, medical care and food provided for life. He will have a lot of time for intellectual pursuits. He can exercise.

Given that it's life in prison, there is no reason not to do pleasurable but unhealthy things like smoking. He can smoke without guilt.

Perhaps he will enjoy the prison sex life. Certainly there is sex available if he wants it. And given his proclivity before, he need only change is mind and alter his repertoire a bit.

If he shifts his mindset, there are many positive aspects of being a prisoner. For a man like him, prison could actually set him free from the obligations of others, and allow him to pursue simple hedonistic pleasures every day of his life.

Why do you warn your daughter of men that like girls who like them? why is that bad

I was disturbed by the lack of evidence. Maybe there was more than what was mentioned in this article.

He was talking about that one instance. He wasn't stating some kind of docrinal fact that is universal.

You can prove it becaue everyone who "lives by the sword" doesn't die by the sword. They die like everyone. But not by the sword every time.

Just like when you told TC that the Jury doesn't have to follow the judges orders.

I'm surprised you posted that one. You're great mind should have known that all men dying and dying by the sword are not the same thing.

You seemed to be denying that Jesus was the source of this paraphrase or that He spoke to the subject at all.

Naturally, you have to judge for yourself how specifically or generally to apply a saying of Jesus in modern life. Personal defense was not a subject included in His major doctrinal statements, like the Sermon on the Mount.

I believe he said put away those swords or you shall surely die. Or something like that.

He was talking to the people who there and would have been killed if they resisted.

There is zero evidence that he said whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Just look at the world. Does everyone who lives by the sword die by the sword? No they don't.

So either Jesus was full of shit and not God because he got it wrong. Or he didn't make a universal statement. I see no other possibilities.

True. But that doesn't mean that if you live by the sword you will die by the sword.

The difference between the Jury going rogue and lawyers suborning perjury is elemental.

If a Jury disregards the judge's instructions, that's actually within their legal RIGHT. They CAN do that, and decide as they please, without any repercussions at all. They have greater power than the legal system lets on to them. That's a key reason why lawyers don't like lawyers to be on juries, because lawyers know the law and can greatly empower the jury by telling them the full scope of their power - which includes the power to judge the law itself - even though judges tell them they DON'T have that power, they do.

But lawyers DON'T have the right to suborn perjury. It's illegal. And they have law licenses, which get yanked for that sort of thing. And defense attorneys are fighting against prosecutors and police who, when they know they're prosecuting a dirt bag they know is guilty, take it personally when defense lawyers beat them. When defense lawyers defeat them by legal tactics such as moves to suppress and the like, everybody knows that's the system. But when defense lawyers themselves break the law to get the win, by suborning perjury, the prosecutors then target the defense lawyers personally and directly. And they don't have to prove the case against them in COURT, they MERELY have to prove to a committee of the Bar - which is largely staffed in those levels by judges and former prosecutors and the like, "respectable" lawyers - that the defense lawyer suborned perjury. He doesn't go to jail, but he DOES lose his law license and his practice and livelihood.

So, the difference between the juror and the defense counsel is that there is no consequence to the juror in going rogue, but the defense counsel can lose his law license - and believe me the prosecutors and judiciary who man the upper ranks of the Bar LOVE to oust lawyers who step over the line.

Don't they? Remember, life continues after death, and that life is one of reward or punishment.

So, the man who lives by the sword - he earns his keep by wielding weapons against other human beings. Where did Jesus authorize that, other than in self-defense? If you take up arms as a soldier in a cause, and the cause is evil and contrary to God's law, then you bear the guilt for killing people to advance evil. You die in your bed of old age, and you wake up in Hell. You DID die by the sword in the end - your spirit perished, eternally, in the flames, BECAUSE you took up the sword. You lost everlasting life.

Those who take up the sword perish by it does not JUST mean that they will get run through, for those who die physically have, in the words of Jesus, merely fallen asleep. The "dead" awaken, alive, on the other side. But then they are judged, and if they go down to sleep in the grave with the blood of others on their heads, blood drawn by a life of the man living by the sword, the man who lived by the sword DOES perish by it:.

You are quite mistaken that men who live by the sword don't perish by it. They all do. To perish, when Jesus speaks of it, doesn't mean simply to fall asleep in the flesh - to physically die. It means to lose life eternal. THAT is to perish.

I pointed out the FACT that everyone who lives by the sword doesn't die by the sword. Can we agree on that?

Jesus never said everyone who takes up the sword will die by the sword. He was talking to his followers who were with him. It isn't complicated.

But you are so stubborn and think that you are never wrong. So you will dismiss my words and doing that you are calling Jesus a liar. Because everyone who takes up the sword doesn't die by the sword.

People who live by the sword and murder are going to go to heaven. There is something called repentence. No not all people I didn't say that.

Jesus was not merely speaking to his followers in that room. He was speaking generally for mankind for all kind. We know this because God prohibited men from shedding the blood of other men, and made exceptions from that rule for the execution of justice against those who had shed man's blood. He made various law enforcement exceptions for ancient Israel, specifically, and he made exceptions for the wars of Israel to take the Holy Land. But otherwise the rule stands. And on the last page of the Bible, Jesus said twice, from heaven, that killers are thrown into the fire.

All who take up the sword - not simply defend themselves with it but who take it up as a principle by which to make their way in the world - risk hellfire, because they are at a high risk of shedding man's blood and killing men. And if you kill a man outside of the very narrow range of conditions in which God authorized it, you're a killer doomed to hell. So yeah, ALL who take up the sword DO perish by it, in the end. Not just the people in that room.

You're right that it isn't complicated. It's easy. If you kill somebody, you're damned unless God forgives you, or God explicitly permitted that killing.

I note that you tell me that by dismissing YOUR words, I am calling Jesus a liar. Are you Jesus?

Do yourself a favor and read the last page or two of the Bible. On it, Jesus lists twice the people who will be thrown into the flames and not enter into the city. "Murderers" is on the list twice.

You've got a theology made up of whatever you want to believe. It does not respose on what Jesus actually SAID.

And any sin, forgivable, must first of all be acknowledged AS a sin. You have to admit it IS a sin. It is not good enough to say "I love Jesus". No, you have to love Jesus and God and God's commandments, and admit you've broken the ones you have broken.

God says not to intentionally kill, except to punish a killer. So if you've gone out there and killed people for other reasons, you have sinned gravely and you are going into the flames at judgment UNLESS you REPENT of the sin, but admitting it WAS a sin, and by being sorry for it.

And THEN you ALSO must forgive others THEIR sins against you. Jesus explicitly said that several times: if you do not forgive, neither shall your Father in heaven forgive you.

I wonder if calling a sinner "the pope" "holy father" is blaspheing the holy spirit.

Or if praying to Mary is blashpheming the holy spirit. I don't know but it kind of sounds like it is.

I have never said I think otherwise of what you posted in this one comment. You are actually correct in this instance. But you changed your tune. You told me earlier no murderers will be in Heaven.

To use the KJV, the text on which you insisted as being the only acceptable one.

In Matthew 26, we have the arrest of Jesus. One man present, Peter, drew his sword and struck off the ear of a servant of the high priest.

We should be clear, Jesus is talking TO PETER. The text TELLS US that Jesus was addressing a specific man, not all of the disciples present, for it says THIS, at Mt 26:52 (emphasis mine):

"Then said Jesus unto HIM, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for ALL THEY that take the sword shall perish with the sword.'"

Jesus then goes on to make it clear that his arrest is not a case of self-defense, for he has the power to call legions of angels if he chooses. He chooses not to, in order to fulfill the scriptures.

Jesus said unto HIM - HIM, singular. Jesus is speaking to ONE man, the man who drew the sword and struck. We know it's Peter from the other Gospels.

Jesus has already made this man, Peter, the head of the Apostles, the rock on which he will build the church, and Jesus knows that this Peter will betray him, and return to him after the Resurrection. Jesus knows all of that. So, he addresses this ONE MAN and gives him a general precept that applies to ALL MEN.

It is perfectly clear from the language itself that it applies to all men. Jesus doesn't say "you", and he doesn't say "all of you". No. He says, to ONE man, leader of the Apostles, "Put up THY (singular) sort" - dealing with this specific incident, and then he makes a general rule for mankind "For ALL THEY that the sword shall perish with the sword."

I just quoted it to you hear, and showed you from the language that Jesus used that he was talking to ONE man, and giving him a general rule for ALL MEN, not just all of the Apostles there.

And indeed, this relates directly to a law for all of mankind that God gave to Noah, at Genesis 9:5- 6, when he said "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

As it was in the beginning, so it stlll was with Jesus: take the sword, shed man's blood, and God shall require your blood by the hand of man. Which is to say, live by the sword, die by the sword.

None of this is difficult, obscure or hard to read. You've read plurals where there are singular words, and singulars where there are plurals. You've read a general rule, given to the head of the Apostles as a general rule - a general rule that brings forward and renews the same concept that was made a law for man after the Flood - and you're pulling the force out of it and pretending that it doesn't apply. You are removing from Scripture and teaching people something that is contrary to what Jesus said.

You're leading people astray...or you would be, if anybody actually listened to you. You're the false teacher here, and any objective person reading the language I've quoted directly from Matthew 26:52, sees that Jesus is speaking to ONE man, and he gives a rule to him that applies to ALL men. It's clear on the base language. You're the one twisting here, because you don't like the implications of it.

To look at the other Gospels on the matter, Mark 14:47 makes it clear that only one man drew his sword, and that he cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest.

John rounds out the set, at 18:10-11, informing us that it was Peter who had a sword and drew it, cutting off the ear of the high priest's servant. John gives us the servant's name too: Malchus. And the text is explicit: "Jesus said unto Peter, 'Put up thy sword into the sheath'. John does not give us the precept from Jesus that Matthew does, as the narrative moves right to the necessity of Jesus accept being arrested.

Once again you've accused me of not knowing Scripture and of being a false teacher.

Once again I have quoted Scripture extensively, using the only translation you accept as authoritative (which means that you're bound to the words too).

And once again, on the words themselves, which merely hearken to a rule of law given to Noah for all mankind, I've demonstrated that my position is just precisely what Jesus said: it's a plural, addressed to all mankind, as is the commandment from God to Noah regarding bloodshedding.

You've told me that I'm stubborn. Here, you wanted Scripture, and I've given you all of the Scripture on the matter, and it demonstrates exactly what I correctly taught you at the beginning.

So now who is going to be stubborn and deny it all, deny what Christ said, deny the KJV language, and throw back another insult.

You have a philosophical problem with Christ's law on this matter. You don't see how it can work in the real world as you perceive it. Rather than understanding that we have CHANGE the world of men to make what Jesus said less problematic, you're going down the road of trying to explain it away and ignore it. And you're accusing one who is teaching you the truth of being a false teacher, and you're adding insult to it.

What you OUGHT to do now is re-read the passage, see that I am right and have recounted to you the truth, realize that Jesus is re-ratifying a law of shedding blood that is as old as Noah, realize that the strictness of the rule stands in sharp contrast to the way of the world, and then come to understand that wherever the world deviates from God's law, it is the world that is wrong and needs to reform, not God. And not the person who faithfully and accurately recounts to you what God says, even if you make him have to turn the other cheek to you when he does it, because you insult him and strike him with words - heretic, blasphemer, false teacher, dumb.

No. I'm just simply right, and you have not read your KJV carefully enough on the matter, or let the scales fall off your eyes as to the full implications of it (the implication is: man cannot build empires by force).

But there is still time for you. I've given you the necessary texts. Reform your thinking to conform to what Jesus said.

It is a fact that not everyone or even most people who "take the sword" (note it doesn't say live by, it says those who take their sword out on this occasion) die by the sword.

Also scripture always confirms itself in more then one place. There is no other reference that everyone who does something will have the outcome.

Revelation 21:6-8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And again at Revelation 22:13-15 "'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.' Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Murderers appears on both lists. Being a murderer, how does one pass final judgment? Exclusively by repentance and forgiveness, following the pathway that Jesus spelled out. For he is the way and the truth and the life. And the path is constricted and the gate narrow. One has to do what HE says, for he is the only gate. Whoever tries to climb in a different way is a thief.

There's one God, and he laid out one path. Can one who has murdered enter heaven? Yes. But only if he repents of it.

And note very well, murder is not what we define in our civil code as murder, it is what God defines as murder. And that is killing another person without justification under God's law.

We are Gentiles. The only cases in which God allows us to kill others is in defense of life and body, and as punishment for killing.

Our law allows many other times when we can kill, such as when under orders in a "war". God never made that exception, however, which means that those who have killed in war, particularly those who have killed through "collateral damage", have to recognize that they are murderers, who have shed innocent blood, and they have to acknowledge that what they did was not simply an accident, but a sin. They have to repent it, and they have to forgive others their sins.

The laws of your land cannot justify your killing. Only God can authorize that, and he only did in the most sparing of circumstances.

At least not until you learn more, learn to give up what you incorrectly learned.

Jesus was talking to one man, Peter, and he spoke to Jesus in the PLURAL: he didn't say to him 'Put up your sword or you'll perish by it.' No, he spoke to him by referring, in the plural, to a general principle that applies to all mankind:

Most people who take up the sword and kill think they are justified. Very few of them limit their bloodshed to immediate self-defense or execution of a duly convicted killer. So, they are murderers, but unrepentant. They fall asleep, pass from their bodies, and ultimately face final judgment, unrepentant and unforgiven, and they are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

So yeah, actually, they DO die for it, by God's terrible swift sword of Justice.

The confirmation of this rule I've already given you. The rule of shedding blood was given in Genesis, repeated in Matthew, and the doom of murderers is twice pronounced at the end of Revelation. I've quoted you that too.

This is all obvious on Scripture. You're flailing around outside of Scripture, and denying the plain meaning of words.

What I said was 180 degrees out from what you just wrote. It's astonishing. Really.

So you have said there will not be murderers in Heaven. Now you will say there will be.

Liars was included the quote along with murderers. Which you told me that God said couldn't be forgiven.

I'm not even mentioning that later you take the opposite position. You're a nutbag of contradictions.

No, because once they are forgiven by God, though their sins were red as scarlet, they are washed whiter than the wool of lambs.

But to BE forgiven, they have to repent, and they have to forgive others their sins. If they don't and won't, then they're not forgiven.

Does your belief mean those people weren't murdered. I guess no one murdered them if they repent.

It's men who hold onto it, insist that it still exists, as a blemish. And that is what God is insisting that men stop doing when he commands men to forgive others their sins if they want to be forgiven their own. GOD does not hold onto the sin - he blots it out. It is redeemed, the uncleanness washed away, expunged.

Men want to be released from their sins, but they want to hold others to theirs, to remember, to remind them, to hold that sin there as a permanent taint on that person.

A person was killed, yes, but it doesn't matter, because all of those who are killed are still alive, and not one of them was killed without God having consented to letting it happen. The killed move over to the other side sooner, and may be better off there, depending on the state of their own spirits.

Those who were aborted babies have a much better life than they WOULD have had had they had to first shuffle through this veil of tears and temptations. Their souls were never sullied with sin.

Those who aborted them are murderers, unless they realize their sin, repent of it, ask for God's forgiveness, and then forgive others THEIR sin. God blots out the sin, the stain, and it ceases to exist. Now everyone is better off - the aborted live with God, and the aborter has gotten right with God and won't do that again.

She WAS a murderer, in the eyes of God, but once she is cleansed, she is not any longer a murderer in reality. Men hold onto the imposition of guilt for those forgiven by God, perhaps because they fear that a murderer will "get away with it". Men, when they do this, have forgotten that nobody ever gets away with anything, for God sees all.