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Title: Is it Time to Retire the Defensive Shotgun?
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URL Source: http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/tim ... imetoretirethedefensiveshotgun
Published: Dec 5, 2015
Author: CTD Blogger
Post Date: 2015-12-05 14:44:58 by Don
Keywords: None
Views: 6307
Comments: 28
Is it Time to Retire the Defensive Shotgun? By CTD Blogger published on November 24, 2015 in Firearms With the AR-15 crowned as the new reigning champ of semiautomatic rifles, there’s no doubt that the 5.56×45 is here to stay. These guns have never been cheaper, more reliable, or easier to customize. And the surging popularity of the defensive carbine has largely displaced the 12-gauge shotgun as the long gun of choice to keep handy for defense of hearth and home. The pump-action shotgun was at one time considered the first and only tool to reach for when things went bump in the night, but it definitely doesn’t have the monopoly on protective force anymore. So, is the defensive shotgun old news now? Has the faithful sidekick of the patrol cop and armed home defender finally jumped the shark? Indisputable shortcomings No matter which side of the camp you undoubtedly find yourself on, there are several disadvantages that come part and parcel with a 12-gauge defensive arm. There’s just no getting around the relatively low ammunition capacity issues. A comparably sized AR-15 can easily have 100 rounds on board. With a shotgun, you’re usually limited to an eight round magazine before things start to get unwieldy with an extended tube. While it’s possible to stow extra ammo on a shotgun in the form of sidesaddles and other means, you’ll never be able to stash 30 extra rounds on the gun, like you can with an AR-15. And even if you could, the weight of 30 shells is prohibitively cumbersome. If your shotgun happens to run dry (an admittedly rare occurrence in most home defense scenarios, historically), you’ve got to individually stuff each and every shell into the magazine tube, which takes time even when there’s no stress involved. With an AR-15, you can have 30+ extra rounds at the ready in a matter of seconds. But it’s not all bad! One of the biggest advantages to the shotgun is the raw power that it lends the user. Various 5.56×45 duty rounds are highly effective these days, but those choices pale in comparison to the bone-crushing attributes of a 1-ounce shotgun slug at supersonic velocities. Shotgun gun You can’t argue with a one-ounce shotgun slug! Shots to the pelvic girdle with a 12-gauge slug do far more than simple tissue damage and temporary cavitation. They actually render the mechanical skeletal structure useless through major blunt-force trauma. That’s incredibly powerful, especially for non-compliant adversaries under the influence of narcotics. It’s very difficult to advance if the ball part of your ball-and-socket hip joint suddenly finds itself… completely missing. Truly, the shotgun’s greatest asset is the broad spectrum of ammo currently available. From the previously mentioned slugs to surgically precise buckshot loads, there’s something for every situation. And while the don’t-really-need-to-aim myths of the “street sweeping, room clearing shotgun” have little factual basis, there’s no denying the advantages that multi-pellet wound channels bring to a firefight. And of course, shotguns are the only reasonable choice for shooting down errant drones. Reliability issues? It was once thought that the pump-action shotgun was the most reliable firearm in existence. The thinking was that if you can still work the action, you’re still in the fight. Over time, this has proven to be not quite true. Short stroking a pump action is remarkably easy to do if you’re not paying attention to how you’re running the gun. Semiautomatic shotguns have become incredibly reliable over the past few decades. I worked at a private gun club for two years, and can attest that I saw more malfunctions induced by shooters short stroking a pump-action as compared to issues caused by a semiauto shotgun. Regardless, as long as you work the action of a pump gun violently to the rear and forcefully forward, you’ll never have an issue with reliability. And using quality ammunition instead of aluminum case head bulk ammo will go a long way towards preventing stuck cases. You aren’t giving any reliability up over a rifle if you choose a quality shotgun and use high-quality ammo. Remington 870 pump-action shotgun Tried and true—the Remington 870 pump action. Still a viable choice? Yes, there are many things that a shotgun cannot do. Shotguns can’t engage a target 400 yards away. They’re big, heavy, and have an outdated manual of arms that’s totally different from the AR-15 we’ve grown to know and love. But as long as there are firearms, there will be the defensive 12-gauge shotgun. And while the venerable pump-action definitely has its unique downsides and disadvantages, there’s no denying they’re devastatingly effective when used correctly. In the end, your home defense gun choice is completely up to you. And with modern rifles, pistols and yes, even shotguns; it’s hard to go wrong. We know you’ve got thoughts about defensive shotguns and the role they play in your home defense plan. Let us hear ‘em in the comments!
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#1. To: All (#0)
I thought there might be a few people who have their own thoughts about this.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
The shotgun is still safest and most reliable for the vast majority of non-expert shooters. It also is less likely to kill your family members by sending bullets through walls. The supposed superiority of the AR-15 is, according to this article, that you can spray-and-pray your way through 35-100 rounds. This is a specious premise as it is exceedingly rare that anyone fires 35-100 rounds inside their home to repel the Bad Guys. It is almost always over much quicker than that, one way or the other. It's rare for anyone to fire even five shots in a home defense situation. The writer also fails to mention that an AR-15 type gun will cost at least twice as much as a quality home-defense shotgun like a Mossberg. Not impressed with this writer. While you might make the case for the AR-15, this is just sales propaganda to get you to spring for the AR-15, regardless of your actual defense needs.
Absolutely not. Just the sound of a 12 ga shell being jacked into the chamber of a pump action shotgun has stopped disputes too numerous to mention. There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
I get your point. A few people might end up shooting down the house around them.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
It's probably best to stay silent until the shooting starts. Sneakypete has a good slant on this issue. I can understand his reasoning.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
5.56×45 round = 1 projectile, .223" 12 Guagex2.75" - 00 Buck = 9 projectiles, .31" You get over twice as many chunks of flying lead per magazine with a 12 guage, and they're bigger. 3" shells have 15 double ought pellets, but you'll probably get 1 less round in the magazine. Yeah, it all depends on how many times you have to shoot. Of course, if you are required to face a mob, it might be better to begin with a simple prayer; Our Father Who Art In Heaven ...
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
Maybe. But the sight and sound of a pump action being brought into battery has certainly stopped me in my tracks. There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
I don't doubt that it might work sometimes.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
One of the best comments on Shotgun buckshot I've come across: --- " --- BASICS --- A cylinder bore shotgun on average, will spread 1 inch per yard, after about the the third yard. A full choke shot gun, will spread about 1 inch per yard, after about the 10 yard. We are talking about using a weapon for defense INSIDE your home, after a break in. We are not talking about assaulting a barricaded crack house, breaking motor blocks at road blocks or stopping a PRC assault on a hill in Korea. WE are talking about defending your and yours against a common burglar/crackhead/banger coming into your home with bad intents. NOW lets look at houses, a smaller starter home is going to run about 800 square foot, a big house is about 1500 square foot on the foundation. A really nice house is going to run 2000 square foot on the foundation. Thats 40 feet by 50 feet. Now doing the math we find out the diagonal on that house is 64 feet. thats corner to corner, the longest shot possible is 20 yards. Now that makes the assumption there are no internal walls, no furniture in the way, nothing, just a big open box. Which we know is not the way homes are built, but even if this were so, that means that a average shotgun, bored cylinder, is going to deliver a 17 inch spread. (20 yards, from muzzle to far corner, is the 3 + {17 x 1}. ) thats like getting hit with 27 .22 stingers all at the same time. Now drop that down to a more reasonable distance, like say, the top of the steps to the bottom of the steps, lets say 4 yards if you have a "grand Staircase" thats like getting 27 hits to the chest with a .22 in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch circle. Do that once or twice more, and you have what"s called hamburger. Now not making light of all sorts of gelatin testing and what have you, I have seen the results of a 12 gauge blast at close range with just #6 six shot, and i have been shot with 6 shot at fairly long distance, and a few #6 shot penetrated across my back several inches, and that was at well over 30 yards, and maybe closer to 45. The hunting accident I helped recover a body on was a hunter shot with 6 shot at about 3 yards, as far as we could tell, and there was a hole thru the victim, the entrance appeared to be golf ball sized, and the exit was much larger. Clearly at that range penetration was complete on a human body. Now for the do it yourself tests. get a tshirt, pack it with wet newspaper, and stack it on a log, where you have a safe back ground. Now using a tape measure, measure inside your house what might be the longest practical shot you are going to have in a home invasion. At the test sight, measure that out, then aim and shoot that wet newsprint, and see what you get. I think you will find that you answer is self evident. So unless you live in Buckingham Palace or are a crown prince in Saudi Arabia where you use a golf car to get around your home, a twelve gauge with 4 buck is going to be darn near perfect. One other point rarely thought about, is miss's. If you miss with a slug or 000 buck, that miss is going to travel on a good distance, and you MIGHT at the time of need, think about that, and say to yourself, I need to wait a second to shoot or I will hit "bill and alice" next door. Shooting 4 buck, after 60 yards of so, its not going to be as lethal as a slug or 000 buck. so don't worry, shoot when the shot is there, rather than worrying."
ROFLMAO! Who does he think is breaking into his house to steal his porn collection,the British Army? Taking tactical advice from this guy is like taking sex advice from the Pope. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Not only bigger,but usually made of lead so soft they deform easily,increasing the damage they do to flesh and bone while lessening their ability to pass completely through the body. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
All the shot was still in the shot cup. IOW's,it was a plastic slug that started deforming the instant it hit flesh and bone because it was being pushed from behind by all those lead pellets. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
By the way, the above is WRONG. I've patterned #4 buck out of my cylinder bore 2 3/4" Mossberg, and at 30 yards I'm getting approx 5' patterns. ( Sellier & Bellot Max load, 27 pellets), -- Damn near double the spread the above predicts.
Depends on your choke, tpaine. Most COTS shotguns for home defense don't use chokes.
Gotta love comments from the peanut gallery. As I posted my Mossberg 500A has a cylinder bore barrel. -- Read much?
For some reason you and others have a PILE of hair up your asses today. Enjoy yourself.
YOU have a PILE of hair up your ass today, and some basic misinformation on shotguns.. I always enjoy meself.
Keep both!
That is kind of the idea I had.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
Oh, yeah. There is a reason why so many guns and ammunition is being sold now.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
Since most people are getting a gun to protect home and family, you also have to have some concern about where the bullets are going and whether firing 30-100 rounds from an AR-15 will be more dangerous to your wife and kids than any burglar is. The shotgun has great stopping power but its buckshot doesn't penetrate multiple walls the way that most AR-15 ammo would. I've read many times that, if you must shoot inside a house, a shotgun is safer than nearly any other handgun or rifle because of the type of ammo it uses. And you don't have to be a shooting wizard to use a shotgun. The wife, even if she thinks guns are icky, can probably fire one pretty effectively at ranges under 40'.
When things started looking bad 6/8years ago, I got my wife her own Mossberg 8 shot pump for a 'closet gun', -- as I was spending a lot of time away, fixing up a cabin.. Despite being quite ill (she died 2 years ago), she surprised me by how well she could handle it.. She never tried to shoulder fire it, and was accurate enough with an under arm 'point and shoot' stance.. Her main problem was a sore trigger finger from recoil, which I fixed with a bit of tape/foam on the guard.. It was quite a sight to see a 70+ year old granny firing her streetsweeper..
A 12 guage shotgun at 25 feet or less is boss. For longer distances I'll take an M1 carbine. using military ammunition, it will penetrate 10 inches of standard lumber store lumber and still kill. I used to shoot pistol accurately at 100 yards. Conditions of health no longer allow me to do it. A 44 mag pistol is useful for taking down small trees.
You're so full of shit that your eyes are brown. Am I correct?
I used to shoot pistol accurately at 100 yards. You're so full of shit that your eyes are brown. Am I correct? No. What's more, my mother could consistently hit a pack of cigarettes at 150 feet when she was 72 years old. She was one of the finest free style combat pistol shots around with a single action pistol. I trained her. The moral of the story is never give a Southern Scotch-Irish woman a pistol then fool with her. I'm good, very good. There are people a lot better. I had a friend who shot skeet from the hip, fast draw, with a Ruger. When he started out he wasn't very good and shot himself in the foot.
A perfect example of why the experts recommend the shotgun for home defense. Sorry about your wife. I don't recall you mentioning it before.
Yes, there is. And I'll bet that after Obunghole gives his speech tonight, there will be even more sold. Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. There are no Carthaginian terrorists. “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.” - George S. Patton
#2. To: Don (#0)
#3. To: Don (#0)
Is it Time to Retire the Defensive Shotgun?
#4. To: TooConservative (#2)
#5. To: cranky (#3)
#6. To: Don, *Bang List* (#0)
(Edited)
30 projectiles per magazine.
7 rounds = 63 projectiles 
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#7. To: hondo68 (#6)
#8. To: Don (#5)
It's probably best to stay silent until the shooting starts.
#9. To: cranky (#8)
#10. To: Y'ALL (#0)
#11. To: Don (#0)
(Edited)
No matter which side of the camp you undoubtedly find yourself on, there are several disadvantages that come part and parcel with a 12-gauge defensive arm. There’s just no getting around the relatively low ammunition capacity issues. A comparably sized AR-15 can easily have 100 rounds on board. With a shotgun, you’re usually limited to an eight round magazine before things start to get unwieldy with an extended tube.
#12. To: hondo68 (#6)
You get over twice as many chunks of flying lead per magazine with a 12 guage, and they're bigger.
#13. To: tpaine (#10)
The hunting accident I helped recover a body on was a hunter shot with 6 shot at about 3 yards, as far as we could tell, and there was a hole thru the victim, the entrance appeared to be golf ball sized, and the exit was much larger. Clearly at that range penetration was complete on a human body.
#14. To: All (#10)
A cylinder bore shotgun on average, will spread 1 inch per yard, after about the the third yard.
#15. To: tpaine (#14)
#16. To: buckeroo (#15)
Depends on your choke, tpaine. Most COTS shotguns for home defense don't use chokes.
#17. To: tpaine (#16)
#18. To: buckeroo (#17)
#19. To: Don (#0)
#20. To: sneakypete (#11)
#21. To: redleghunter (#19)
#22. To: tpaine (#10)
NOW lets look at houses, a smaller starter home is going to run about 800 square foot, a big house is about 1500 square foot on the foundation. A really nice house is going to run 2000 square foot on the foundation. Thats 40 feet by 50 feet. Now doing the math we find out the diagonal on that house is 64 feet. thats corner to corner, the longest shot possible is 20 yards. Now that makes the assumption there are no internal walls, no furniture in the way, nothing, just a big open box. Which we know is not the way homes are built, but even if this were so, that means that a average shotgun, bored cylinder, is going to deliver a 17 inch spread. (20 yards, from muzzle to far corner, is the 3 + {17 x 1}. ) thats like getting hit with 27 .22 stingers all at the same time.
#23. To: TooConservative (#22)
you don't have to be a shooting wizard to use a shotgun. The wife, even if she thinks guns are icky, can probably fire one pretty effectively at ranges under 40'.
#24. To: Don (#1)
#25. To: rlk (#24)
I used to shoot pistol accurately at 100 yards.
#26. To: Fred Mertz (#25)
(Edited)
#27. To: tpaine (#23)
When things started looking bad 6/8years ago, I got my wife her own Mossberg 8 shot pump for a 'closet gun', -- as I was spending a lot of time away, fixing up a cabin.. Despite being quite ill (she died 2 years ago), she surprised me by how well she could handle it.. She never tried to shoulder fire it, and was accurate enough with an under arm 'point and shoot' stance.
#28. To: Don (#21)
" There is a reason why so many guns and ammunition is being sold now. "
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