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Title: That Laquan McDonald Shooting In Chicago: A Counter-Take
Source: VDare
URL Source: http://www.vdare.com/posts/chicago-shooting-a-counter-take
Published: Nov 27, 2015
Author: John Derbyshire
Post Date: 2015-11-27 21:38:05 by Bridge at Remagen
Keywords: None
Views: 16738
Comments: 70

Here (with a hat tip to Countenance Blog) is an interesting counter-take on the 2014 Chicago shooting of Laquan McDonald.

I expect every police officer in the country has been taught a defensive doctrine called the Tueller Drill. The Tueller Drill was developed by Salt Lake City Police Officer Dennis Tueller, who among other things was a firearms instructor for his department.

Dennis trained uniformed police officers who were armed with pistols and who regularly encountered violent suspects armed with impact weapons, particularly knives.

{snip}

That begged the question, then, of what distance became the threshold at which an impact-weapon armed attacker did constitute an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm such that the officer would be justified in using deadly force. Was that distance 5 feet? 10 feet? 15 feet?

{snip}

After running a great many empirical tests, Dennis found that the distance that an impact-weapon armed attacker could cross from a standing start in 1.5 seconds was not just 5 feet, or 10 feet, or 15 feet. Rather, such an aggressor could consistently cross a distance of 21 feet, a full 7 yards, in the 1.5 seconds it would take the typical officer to draw his holster and engage that aggressor with aimed fire.

Laquan McDonald Video Not Dispositive of Police Criminal Misconduct

Posted by Andrew Branca, LegalInsurrection, November 25, 2015

Here’s a police training video displaying two officers testing this in the gym.

Branca also has a video he describes as

And in case that exercise wasn’t sufficiently convincing on how effective a knife can be against even a prepared and well-armed police officer, here’s a video of an actual confrontation between an aggressive and motivated knife-wielding attacker and several armed police officers, some of whom were armed with long guns. (CAUTION: Not all of these officers survive the encounter, and there’s plenty of blood, so if you’re sensitive to such things you may wish to defer viewing.)

You can watch it here.

Click for Full Text!

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 30.

#4. To: Bridge at Remagen (#0)

Rather, such an aggressor could consistently cross a distance of 21 feet, a full 7 yards, in the 1.5 seconds it would take the typical officer to draw his holster and engage that aggressor with aimed fire.

Van Dyke already had his gun drawn and trained on McDonald, so this Tueller Drill is irrelevant.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-11-28   4:20:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Willie Green (#4)

"Van Dyke already had his gun drawn and trained on McDonald, so this Tueller Drill is irrelevant."

But McDonald was closer than 21 feet. You left that out.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   8:29:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: misterwhite (#6)

It doesn't matter.
Van Dyke's weapon was already drawn and aimed at McDonald.
And McDonald never made a move toward Van Dyke.
Van Dyke simply emptied his full clip into McDonald and murdered him in cold blood.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-11-28   8:36:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Willie Green (#7)

"And McDonald never made a move toward Van Dyke."

Neither did he drop the knife as ordered. Why not, unless he intended to use it? McDonald was on the move and posed a threat.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   8:43:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: misterwhite (#8)

McDonald was on the move and posed a threat.

There was nobody else in the immediate vicinity so McDonald did not pose a threat requiring use of deadly force. He could've been subdued with a taser... or multiple tasers since there were multiple cops on scene.

Frankly, I'm disappointed the other cops didn't tase & handcuff Van Dyke after he murdered McDonald... instead, they let that crackpot sociopath hide behind his badge for a full year.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-11-28   8:56:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Willie Green (#10)

"There was nobody else in the immediate vicinity so McDonald did not pose a threat requiring use of deadly force."

He was on the move. He refused to stop. He refused to drop the knife. He was high on PCP.

What. The cops supposed to just let him go on his merry way?

"He could've been subdued with a taser... or multiple tasers since there were multiple cops on scene."

No one on the scene had a taser. Now what, Einstein?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   9:20:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: misterwhite (#11)

No one on the scene had a taser. Now what, Einstein?

Then just like the EIGHT other officers on the scene, Van Dyke could've held his fire until someone with a taser DID arrive. Maybe Van Dyke and the other officers would have had to shoot McDonald 30 seconds later anyway.... But when Van Dyke emptied his clip, it was unnecessary.

Willie Green  posted on  2015-11-28   9:55:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Willie Green, Too Conservative (#15)

The other officers had radioed for a taser and were chasing McDonald through the yards and down the street when Van Dyke pulled up to block him.

"Maybe Van Dyke and the other officers would have had to shoot McDonald 30 seconds later anyway"

Geez Louise. I got Too Conservative saying that if McDonald was killed by two shots instead of 16 it would have been fine by him, and now you're saying if he would have been shot 30 seconds later it would have been fine by you.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   10:06:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: misterwhite (#17)

The other officers had radioed for a taser and were chasing McDonald through the yards and down the street when Van Dyke pulled up to block murder him.

Geez, dude, just admit it.

I know there is no police shooting, however awful, that you won't defend but I have to wonder how you can look at yourself in the mirror.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-28   10:27:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: TooConservative (#20) (Edited)

"I know there is no police shooting, however awful, that you wo won't defend"

Had McDonald stopped and dropped the knife, THEN was shot, I wouldn't defend that shooting.

Feel better?

Is there any scumbag criminal that YOU won't defend?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   10:42:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite (#25)

Had McDonald stopped and dropped the knife, THEN was shot, I wouldn't defend that shooting.

No one has yet determined exactly when the knife came out of his hand but the shooter was told to stop shooting when he tried to reload and at least one of the other cops pointed out he no longer had the knife in his hand. It was not a dark street, visibility was pretty good. If the other cops could see the knife was not in his hand, so could the shooter-cop.

Is there any scumbag criminal that YOU won't defend?

Plenty. My posting history is clear enough. I've sided with the cops in a lot of controversial shootings, often taking their side very early on as a case becomes prominent. I can't say whether my ratio of siding with the cop or shootee is 50:50 or 60:40 but it would be in that range, I think.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-28   11:28:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 30.

#33. To: TooConservative (#30)

"and at least one of the other cops pointed out he no longer had the knife in his hand."

At the end of the shooting, what did the cop kick away? A cigarette butt?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28 11:54:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 30.

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