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Title: That Laquan McDonald Shooting In Chicago: A Counter-Take
Source: VDare
URL Source: http://www.vdare.com/posts/chicago-shooting-a-counter-take
Published: Nov 27, 2015
Author: John Derbyshire
Post Date: 2015-11-27 21:38:05 by Bridge at Remagen
Keywords: None
Views: 18165
Comments: 70

Here (with a hat tip to Countenance Blog) is an interesting counter-take on the 2014 Chicago shooting of Laquan McDonald.

I expect every police officer in the country has been taught a defensive doctrine called the Tueller Drill. The Tueller Drill was developed by Salt Lake City Police Officer Dennis Tueller, who among other things was a firearms instructor for his department.

Dennis trained uniformed police officers who were armed with pistols and who regularly encountered violent suspects armed with impact weapons, particularly knives.

{snip}

That begged the question, then, of what distance became the threshold at which an impact-weapon armed attacker did constitute an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm such that the officer would be justified in using deadly force. Was that distance 5 feet? 10 feet? 15 feet?

{snip}

After running a great many empirical tests, Dennis found that the distance that an impact-weapon armed attacker could cross from a standing start in 1.5 seconds was not just 5 feet, or 10 feet, or 15 feet. Rather, such an aggressor could consistently cross a distance of 21 feet, a full 7 yards, in the 1.5 seconds it would take the typical officer to draw his holster and engage that aggressor with aimed fire.

Laquan McDonald Video Not Dispositive of Police Criminal Misconduct

Posted by Andrew Branca, LegalInsurrection, November 25, 2015

Here’s a police training video displaying two officers testing this in the gym.

Branca also has a video he describes as

And in case that exercise wasn’t sufficiently convincing on how effective a knife can be against even a prepared and well-armed police officer, here’s a video of an actual confrontation between an aggressive and motivated knife-wielding attacker and several armed police officers, some of whom were armed with long guns. (CAUTION: Not all of these officers survive the encounter, and there’s plenty of blood, so if you’re sensitive to such things you may wish to defer viewing.)

You can watch it here.

Click for Full Text!

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 12.

#1. To: Bridge at Remagen (#0)

That begged the question, then, of what distance became the threshold at which an impact-weapon armed attacker did constitute an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm such that the officer would be justified in using deadly force. Was that distance 5 feet? 10 feet? 15 feet?

{snip}

After running a great many empirical tests, Dennis found that the distance that an impact-weapon armed attacker could cross from a standing start in 1.5 seconds was not just 5 feet, or 10 feet, or 15 feet. Rather, such an aggressor could consistently cross a distance of 21 feet, a full 7 yards, in the 1.5 seconds it would take the typical officer to draw his holster and engage that aggressor with aimed fire.

Which begs the question,"WTF was the cop doing waiting around to be charged before he draws his gun?

If you THINK you MIGHT need a gun,you need to have your hand on it RIGHT NOW, Maybe not pointing it as your potential attacker,but in your hand and ready to use.

Which is one reason I started carrying short-barreled revolvers when I moved to a big city. I could have my hand on my gun inside my coat pocket if I were suspicious of anyone,and they would never be the wiser unless I shot them through the pocket.

This has the additional advantage of the cops not being able to charge you with pointing a gun (assault/intimidation) at anyone because the guy can't describe what kind of gun you have if you don't take it out and wave it at them.

You can't shoot through a coat pocket with a autoloader without the gun jamming.

sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-27   22:12:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: sneakypete, Bridge at Remagen, GrandIsland (#1)

I noticed the cop only stopped shooting to reload. Other cops made him stop shooting before opening fire with a fresh magazine again. Of course, the cop might realize that his best defense in any wrongful death suit would be to insist that he perceived the shootee as an active threat so a very clever cop might know that his best bet with a jury is to fire and keep firing and behave as though the shootee poses a serious ongoing threat to the cop or bystanders. This kind of thinking probably does lead to many of these police shootings where they fire once or twice and the perp is helpless on the ground and they just keep shooting. It also eliminates many wrongful death suits and deprives a jury of a sympathetic live shooting victim to tell them tearful tales of how they got shot up by a cop. There is some incentive to make any shooting an automatic fatality, no matter what. This can also apply in many states to shootings by private individuals.

I suspect that my suspicions in this shooting are not exactly Breaking News, that many people think about these issues.

I assume he was using a Glock 9mm, .40, or 10mm with a 15-round clip and had a round in the chamber too. That would be the most common gun choice for American PDs. I would like to know what gun and mag he was using. Just curious.

I presume a Glock by default because it is so popular and has some key contracts to supply federal agencies and the military but other brands like Sig Sauer and even H&K are popular with PDs. And they have factory-made 15rd mags too, just as Glock does.


[a little later...]

I found these links detailing the current Chicago PD officially approved handguns interesting. A few brands there I didn't expect.

ChicagoPolice.org: Department Approved Semiautomatic Pistols and Ammunition

ChicagoPolice.org: Department Approved Revolvers and Ammunition

So my question is mostly answered; I thought I would share the results if anyone else was interested. We all know that metro PDs like Chicago or Balitmore or NYC or LA have a plethora of police regulations but relatively few of us have ever encountered these directly, to see the actual current policy positions of a major PD.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-28   8:45:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: TooConservative (#9) (Edited)

"Of course, the cop might realize that his best defense in any wr wrongful death suit ..."

The parents already received $4.9 million in a wrongful death suit. The cop is being charged with murder.

"would be to insist that he perceived the shootee as an active threat"

He WAS an active threat. That's why the cop f fired in the first place. And you concede he was justified in f firing.

Seems to me your only problem is the number of shots fired -- as t though you know exactly how many it takes to stop someone high on PCP.

Does a anyone know why the cop fired 16 times? Has the cop said why he fired 16 times? D D D Don't you think you know thew answer before you accuse him of murder?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-11-28   9:33:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 12.

#14. To: misterwhite, GrandIsland (#12)

He WAS an active threat. That's why the cop f fired in the first place. And you concede he was justified in f firing.

I conceded that the first shot might be justified, even perhaps the second shot. They had that many cops on-scene and no one had a shotgun with bean bags or a taser? Really?

The shootee had also not assaulted anyone or killed anyone. He was menacing the police/public with a knife in an effort to escape.

Seems to me your only problem is the number of shots fired -- as t though you know exactly how many it takes to stop someone high on PCP.

After the second shot when the shootee is not moving on the ground and the knife is no longer in his hand, any jury in any state will conclude that the purpose of the remaining 14 shots was to execute the shootee, not render him harmless to the police/public.

You can make all your usual mealy-mouthed excuses for police massacre events but this cop is going to be convicted, probably of second-degree murder.

I would like to see a deep probe of the agencies and outside contractors who provide police training, to uncover where this doctrine of unlimited firepower originates. Not in general, but exactly where did this particular cop get his training and what firearms doctrine he was trained in, and how closely did he adhere to that training and to Chicago PD firearms doctrine.

These kinds of shootings are common enough that I have come to suspect bad training from private police training companies or from state police barracks (who do training in some states for other PDs) or from on-staff armorers and trainers at big-city PDs.

There is some bad police training out there or we would not have so many of these kinds of shootings which all too often seem to be conducted in such a way as to guarantee the shootee will not survive to testify in court or lodge a civil rights complaint or sit before a jury in a wrongful shooting or excessive force civil suit.

Tooconservative  posted on  2015-11-28 09:55:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 12.

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