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Title: Ex-CIA’er to Ex-KGB’er: Defeat, Mr. Putin, lies in ignoring the Islamists’ words and waging less than total war
Source:
Non Invervention
URL Source: http://non-intervention.com/1904/ex ... nd-waging-less-than-total-war/
Published: Nov 14, 2015
Author: Michael Scheuer
Post Date: 2015-11-14 21:29:00 by nativist nationalist
Keywords: None
Views: 8693
Comments: 50
From this distance, Mr. Putin, it appears that when you unleashed the Russian air force on 30 September 2015 you expected to save Bashir al- Assad’s regime and bring order to Syria and Iraq in a relatively short period of time. Well, the application of Russian air power is continuing, but only a month after its start, the Islamic State’s (IS) fighters responded by executing a superbly professional operation that destroyed a Russian airliner flying over the Sinai, killing the 224 people aboard. Damn tough luck, Mr. Putin. It is clear that Russia has a serious strategic problem with the Islamists, but in the past six weeks you behaved as a reckless, ignorant, and really rather dumb jackass, as have Mr. Clinton, Mr. Bush. Mr. Obama, Senators McCain, Graham, Rubio, and Cruz, former-Secretary Clinton, Mr. Cameron, Mr. Blair, Mrs. Merkle, Mr. Hollande, and sundry other lesser European leaders. You have behaved as if your air force would be sufficient to deliver victory, that it would intimidate the mujahedin into quitting, and that Russia would suffer few casualties as you unfolded in Syria a Russian version of the Cheney-Rumsfeld “cakewalk” in Iraq. The odds also are enormous that you never bothered to read a word of what the mujahedin have said and written since Osama bin Laden declared war in 1996, and so you were entirely ignorant of the kind of enemy you were facing. Frankly, Mr. Putin, these are very bad grades for a man that history will assess as aspiring to be “Tsar of all the Russians.” Since the year of 1996, Islamist leaders, sub-leaders, theologians, field commanders, and fighters-in-the-trenches have said U.S./Western interventionism had motivated them to wage war, that they would kill as many of their enemies as was necessary to rid the Islamic world of Western military interventionists, and that they were waging a religious war, one that their faith required them to fight until they won or were eradicated. The Islamists also told their foes that they intended to geographically expand their war as quickly and as far as possible, and that they believed that, while victory could only be granted by Allah, they could assist the divinity by inflicting casualties on their sophomoric, casualty averse- enemies. They also explained that, Allah willing, they would cause a steadily increasing drain on Western nations’ treasuries — especially that of the United States — which had already been bankrupted by the devastatingly destructive spendthrifts who govern them. Allah, it seems clear, has delivered in spades to those on whom his favor falls. Whatever response you come up with to avenge the avenging IS attack on the Russian passenger aircraft, you must do it with hard but clear-seeing eyes. If you respond only with more intense aerial attacks, you will be playing into IS hands because a war that was caused by tepid Western military interventionism can hardly be won by more of the same tepid military interventionism. Such attacks will have little impact on the Islamists’ capabilities and manpower, will strengthen mujahedin morale because your reliance on air power will signal that Russia does not intend to win, will increase popular sympathy and clerical support for the mujahedin across the Muslim world, and will further drain your treasury, which is in even worse shape than the U.S. treasury. Moreover, such under-achieving but Muslim- killing aerial attacks will further anger the lethal and growing domestic Islamist forces you confront in Russia, the Caucasus, and Central Asia, and probably will hasten the large-scale attack those fighters are now planning to stage inside Russia. That attack is the post-Sinai shoe that has yet to drop, and when it does, Mr. Putin, you will look as much the bewildered ninny as those other “leaders” mentioned above. What you are looking at, Mr. Putin, is the following absurd but all too real scenario. Only an enormous ground force — perhaps a million soldiers might provide enough shooters to get the Islamists’ attention — has a ghost of a chance of defeating the mujahedin. And you must keep in mind that even waging war in that way will not ensure victory. You will recall, Mr. Putin, that when you and your colleagues were still strutting, arrogant, and murderous Soviets, sufficient force was not used in Afghanistan and so the Red Army’s “limited contingent” there – the model for Rumsfeld’s “small footprint” — was soundly thrashed and evicted by the Afghan Islamists after Moscow foolishly had started this whole jihad mess by invading that never- beaten country in 1979. In addition, if Russian forces fight a whole-hog war in Syria/Iraq, Mr. Putin, do not think that it will at all resemble anything predicted or advocated by the self-styled but always-wrong experts who staff the West’s counter-insurgency brains-trust — David Kilcullen, Max Boot, David Petraeus, John Nagl, etc. –There will be no economic component to the war your forces wage, except for Russia’s deepening bankruptcy. It will have to be all raw, indiscriminate, and unrelenting military power because the enemy will not compromise his faith for, say, a modern, Russian-paid for irrigation system, highway, or mobile-phone network. –There will be no hearts-and-minds component to the war because there are absolutely zero hearts and minds to win among the Islamists, their supporters, and their quickly growing number of sympathizers. The Islamists are waging a religious war and have believed in and welcomed the reality that their jihad will end in only victory or death, and that either ending is in Allah’s hands alone. –There will be no diplomatic breakthroughs and certainly no “political solution” to the war unless you militarily annihilate the Islamists and then militarily impose either Russian or Western paganism on whatever Muslims remain alive in the Syria/Iraq Theater. You could thereby establish a temporarily stable situation which would last until the coming Muslim generation reaches Kalashnikov age. (NB: Mr. Putin, if any of your political, intelligence, or military advisers tell you that “all wars have political solutions” and one can be reached in this case without first securing a complete military victory over the Islamists, have them shot, drawn, and quartered.) There is one more item beginning “There will be no” which is so obvious that it ought not to be necessary to state. Still, given recent statements by you and you foreign minister it may be worth stating. –There will be no effective help coming Russia’s way from the United States, the EU, or the Sunni Arab regimes. –You must know, Mr. Putin, that the leaders and the elites of the United States and the EU are (a) perpetual adolescents; (b) reliable moral and physical cowards; (c) pseudo-intellectuals who cannot — despite expensive educations and history’s lessons — conceive of the immense and ruthless power possessed by a religion at war; (d) vicious haters of their own citizens, butchers of infants and military personnel, and fawning lovers and protectors of the Third World dregs that are inundating and destroying the cohesiveness of their societies. –These men and women and their preferred and pampered minority groups, Mr. Putin, are walking/talking dead-people who are smugly but blindly striding toward domestic turmoil and perhaps a revolution that will — pray God — destroy them, and, at least in America, allow the nation to restore republicanism, Christianity, the rule of law, and traditional English liberties. Russia, Mr. Putin, is better-off without such allies, as they are regimes that will turn on you it if they lose a half-dozen soldiers or if a few mujahedin-supporting civilians are killed. If you and Russia really need massive military help from the United States and the EU, it would be best to get out of Syria now, use Russia’s military forces to annihilate the Islamists in the Caucasus, and spend whatever money you have to close the border between Central Asia and Afghanistan, across which Russia’s primary strategic threat from the Islamists will come. –As for Saudi Arabia and the other Sunni Arab regimes, Mr. Putin, you must keep in mind that for them there is no happier, holier, or more desired outcome to this war than the Islamists’ annihilation of the apostate Shias and Alawites and their humiliation and bankrupting of the United States, the EU, and Russia. Indeed, you may have noticed that the media is reporting that the IS fighters have never used anti-tank weapons against Syrian armor as tellingly and in such numbers as they have since Russia entered the war. There is, of course, no need to for you wonder where those weapons are coming from, or who is paying for them. So there you have it, Mr. Putin, you and Russia are in quite a fix. But as bad as things are, they could be worse. You might, for example, have the United States and the EU as your allies. As allies, they would help you in the way they helped themselves in Afghanistan; that is, they will take a problem that required a murderous, 15-month punitive expedition — killing all that moved, demolishing all that stood, and leaving behind a desert named “Peace” — and turn it into a decade-plus disaster that has left the Islamists stronger and able to project power into Central Asia and Pakistan. Indeed, the U.S. and NATO repeated the kind of childish, half-way military campaign you and your Soviet pals waged in Afghanistan – including a ridiculous reliance on Special Forces — but it has cost them infinitely more. Take history’s indelible lesson, Mr. Putin, expecting victory when tepidly fighting alongside effeminate post-Cold-War Western allies is a fool’s dream or an ignoramus’s expectation. If you are not willing to go all in and do your own dirty work until Russia destroys IS in Syria/Iraq, get all out and take care of your Islamist problem at home.
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#10. To: rlk (#7)
Yes, the Muzzes don't care how many people they kill.they would happily kill every man, woman, and child in a country to take over lands for their God.
Psalm 37
Both the British and the Germans proved in WW-2 how useless air power is at getting the enemy to surrender. All it does is piss them off and make them more determined to fight. Yes, it took several millions of Soviet soldiers on the ground. Today Russia is more than two times weaker demographically and several times economically than America - she cannot afford to send an army. They can provide key aerial support to the ground troops. The troops on the ground are Syrians, Persians and others. West can help by stopping help to the moderate terrorists, Saudis by stopping help to the immoderate terrorists.
Was America an empty land when the European settlers came?
I LOVED Skyraiders! Excellent TAC air support aircraft. I still disagree with your idea on strategic bombings,though. We firebombed Dresden to the ground during WW-2,and all it did was make the Germans mad and make them think the Nazi's were better than we were. There was no mass rush to surrender after nuking the Japanese twice. What it took to get them to surrender was immunity for the Emperor. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Why would they do that when they are the main financiers of Muslim terrorism? BTW,"Soviet soldiers" didn't win WW-2. US manufacturing and shipping won it,as well as American troops pushing into Germany from Africa into western Europe. Without the US you would be whining in German today. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Was eastern Europe? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Was it empty when migration began from Asia via the land bridge up North? Was it a Paradise with everyone just "getting along" when the Indians settled in? Psalm 37
Apparently it was.
That's the understatement of the year... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
No it wasn't. Genesis 11:1-9King James Version (KJV) 11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Actually it was quite empty. Germanic tribes like Goths, Vandals and others migrated West/South to carve their states on Roman territory. Then in 6th century Slaves led by Avars came from today Ukraine/Belarus. Possibly few centuries earlier Slaves formed under Finnish and Iranian tribes influence on the western/southern slopes of Ural Mountains before starting their migration.
It was 6000 years ago. We are talking about earlier times :)
Yes it can be done Pete. I agree with you. Good post. Thing is only Trump would have the balls to pull it off. Wouldn't you agree?
Those were the first people in the new world. THere was nothing ealrier my friend.
I have a great sympathy for the Fundamentalists. They put Faith in the first place, opting for the literal interpretation if needed. They made the right choice, considering where the liberal Protestant theology went in XIX century. If you have Bible only at your disposal and you want interpretation accessible for everyone it is a quite sensible approach.
Actually it was quite empty. Actually,everywhere in the known world was "quite empty" 2000 years ago. The Mari were just one of,and probably the most populous people inhabiting what is now called "Russia" when whites started moving into that land mass from what is now called the Scandinavian countries and western Europe. Most of the "native peoples" have long since disappeared and been forgotten. And even that is assuming that THEY were the "original peoples" of those areas,and not invaders themselves. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Maris like large part of tribes living in forests and steppes of Russia got Russified and merged in this old melting pot. Russians have a lot Finno-Ugric and other non Slavic blood in their veins. Do those Mari people look non white to you?
No. He is a pompous draft-dodging gasbag with no balls. Sadly,our political system has became neutered and globalized to the point where I don't think we have ANY "name" politicians with the guts to do what needs to be done,and even if a few were to pop up and by some miracle one was to get elected President,even he or she couldn't do anything on their own and would have zero support from the sheep-like politicians in Congress they would need because those weasels would be worried about losing the "black,Arab,and Muslim vote back home". I haven't discussed any of what I wrote with anyone on active duty,but I can guarantee you that not a thing I wrote would be a new thought to many senior NCO's and officers in the US Army or the USMC. The US Navy is a branch of the DNC and no one in their senior leadership has had any balls since before WW-2 so they don't count,and you lose the USAF when you stop talking about bombing or missile strikes. Besides,this is all about control of territory,not the skies or the sea,and the only people that understand this and understand how to take and control the ground are the US Army and the USMC. I know of a couple of retired senior US Army Generals that completely understand what needs to be done who would be ideal Presidents in the militant world of today,but neither have ever been involved in politics and AFAIK have no interest in being involved in politics. Which means you are I could be elected as easily as them. I don't think we are going to get serious about this until fundie Islam starts making strikes right here in mainland USA in major cities,and I am not even sure our political class has the stones to do something even then,and suspect it MIGHT take setting off a nuke or bio weapon in a major city like NYC,Chicago,or DC before those turds wake up and understand that even THEY are at danger and decide to so something real. Just look at how little REAL effect flying airliners into the WTC and the Pentagram had for proof of this. LOTS of flashy "air strikes into their mountain lairs" stuff,while opening our borders at the very same time to hundreds of thousands of rabid Muslim immigrants from some of the very countries we SHOULD be at war with. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
They look like Cossack's dressed up in costumes,and neither they nor their costumes look the tiniest bit Mari. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Whites? Probably you have Indo-Europeans in mind, who came from the south Russia thousands of years ago. Basques were before them, Hungarians came the last after Indo-Europeans. Basques, Hungarians and Finns are white too.
They look like Cossack's dressed up in costumes,and neither they nor their costumes look the tiniest bit Mari. Cossack have mixed blood, Slavic, Turkish, and yes Ugro-Finnish like Maris. Go there and tell Maris that they are fake and that their traditions and language are made up. http://europeanpeoples.imb.org/explore/view/mari-photo-gallery
I've been there,visited with actual Mari's,or as close as you can come to one today,which is half-Mari,and visited the Mari Museum in Yoshkar-Ola. I even personally know the woman who wrote the first dictionary of the Mari language. And you? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
I don't want to try to change their minds. Lothrop Stoddard observed that the only Islam has ever been eliminated where it has taken root is by extirpation, using Spain as his example. If I had to deal with them, I'd want them dead. I don't even want to do that, the only reason they pose a demographic threat is due to idiots in the West who've helped them multiply their numbers to far higher levels than they would have reached on their own. Their naturally high birthrate should be balanced by a high death rate, but Western elites interfere with nature. 90 years ago they numbered 250 million, today they are 1.6 billion. As an overall policy for the West it would be good to see some drastic thinning of the herd over there. It would be best to do what we can to orchestrate such a thing rather than carry it out by our own hands. This can be from things like encouraging their own hatreds for each other, such as the Sunni/Shia schism. We should not discourage nations with troublesome Islamic minorities from taking a final solution to their problems. We could even try a "bait and bleed" strategy, to draw China into the Muddle East. You would not want such a foreign policy in the hands of Hillary's coven, you'd need a modern day Machiavelli. My idea on strategic bombing is to expand your idea of the blockade. I've no qualms about leveling their cities, except that it is not the most efficient way of getting a good "ragheads per mega-buck" ratio. The most effective thing we ever did with the B-29's was operation "Starvation," which had a goal that matched its name. Laying sea mines around Japan. We'd want to use air power in such a way as to expand the blockade. Their irrigation works make a prime target, you would not kill any any ISIS jihadists, they'd be the last ones to starve. But they are parasitic overhead, so even their survival would help to weaken their society. Not trying to make them cry "uncle," trying to take them back in time. Erode their technology, the further back in time you can take them, the lower the amount of population they can support. The blockades make sure that not refugees make it out. One good thing, if you can take their productive farmlands out of service, while degrading their ability to use fossil fuels, they come into a situation where they need to harness animal power, meaning they need to find fodder for draft animals as they have less fertile land available. Sherman observed the logistic implications, noting that a team of horses moving a wagon load will have consumed the contents of the wagon by the time they reached 100 miles. Which was why he loved the railroad. When Spain adopted Madrid as their capital, they assumed a strategic liability as the supplies for the extravagant capital has to be moved overland by ox-cart. It was not fatal, but they were significantly degraded as a result. The West is not ready to fight like this yet, they want to be tolerant. When they weary of turning the other cheek, and come to see the virtues of intolerance, that is when my time will come. Non auro, sed ferro, recuperando est patria
Actually it was quite empty. Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia had 14 million peoples when the Pole's moved in in 1945. By 1947 all 14 million were gone, either driven out or killed. Poles are the last people on earth to be lecturing us about this sort of thing. Non auro, sed ferro, recuperando est patria
Really? So show the photos to prove that Ugro-Finnish Maris are not white.
Then you haven't thought this through. The purpose of getting the PEOPLE to change their minds about the their leadership and their participation in war with you is to get the people you are fighting to turn on and overthrow their leadership,thus saving your own lives and wealth. THAT was supposed to have been the thinking behind stratetic bombing. Instead of convincing the German and Japanese people that the war was lost and they should surrender,it only pissed them off and made them dig in harder. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
WWII, yes. It was wrong. But we were talking about original Slavic settlement that took place in VI century, weren't we? BTW it was well into today Eastern Germany, as later Germans expanded east (in Middle Ages).
I knew you are a comrade,thus as dumb as a month old turd,but apparently you are even dumber than that. The Mari looked more like American Indians than white people,and even dressed in buckskins,wore feathers in their hair,and lived in teepees. The photos you keep posting are Stalinist-era photos of "Russianized" Mari's after Stalin forced them all into cities like Yoskhar-Ola,and moved a bunch of white Russians into the Mari Republic to live with and mix with them. They are photos of Russians with MAYBE 1/4 Mari blood wearing traditional Russian and Ukranian dress. As for the Finns that speak the Mari language,they look like Eskimos,not the Scandinavians that took over their islands. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
This is pure bullshit. Muslims feel that have an injunction to fight against everything that is not Muslim. That is what jihad means. If there was no western intervention they would still feel the need to fight, to attack because they would concieve of some problem, economic exploitation or whatever, but so long as they do not rule the world they will fight. They have been contained for a time but their view has always been expansionist. Things were relatively quiet before Iran was lost to extremism but extremism came back, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and it is speading again. A muslim told me fifty years ago they would fight and I couldn't concieve then of what he was talking about
The photos you keep posting are Stalinist-era photos of "Russianized" Mari's after Stalin forced them all into cities like Yoskhar-Ola,and moved a bunch of white Russians into the Mari Republic to live with and mix with them. Your obsession with racial purity is not so healthy as you think. So, you think "non white" Maris got better or worse by admixture of "white" blood? Second, I did not have access to some mysterious archives of "Stalinist-era" photos (with very advanced colors), I just Google for them and picked the ones came first excluding Maori from New Zealand (I hope you did not get confused by them?) Third, were you really there, and spreading such ideas? Fourth, the photos I posted before came from a Protestant website International Mission Board. They went there several times. Let me try again, here is from another website, http://imgbuddy.com/mari-people.asp I guess that you cannot wrap your mind around idea that there is another white races like Ugro-Finnish. The similarity between them and Russians comes from the fact that Russia came from the merge of Slavic, Ugro-Finish and others. About the dress, there were multiple influences, in multiple directions during the countless centuries.
Mari traditional wedding:
You really are a total fucking idiot. My grandmother was a full-blooded Tuscarora Indian. So, you think "non white" Maris got better or worse by admixture of "white" blood? If you have blonde hair,blue eyes,and Slavic features,you are NOT a Mari. You are a Russian playing dress up. Second, I did not have access to some mysterious archives of "Stalinist-era" photos (with very advanced colors), I just Google for them and picked the ones came first excluding Maori from New Zealand (I hope you did not get confused by them?) No shit,Sherlock! IF you had ever been to the Mari Republic and gone to the Mari Museum you would be slightly less delusional than you are now because you would have seen photos of full-blooded Mari people that were taken BEFORE (get someone with patience to explain the concept of "before" to you) Stalinization happened and all the white Russians were moved into the Republic,everyone was forced to speak Russian and dress Russian,and before the Mari began to disappear as a race of people who had been living in that area since the Stone Age. I just Google for them and picked the ones came first WOW! THERE is a surprise! excluding Maori from New Zealand (I hope you did not get confused by them?) I'm not the one that is confused,nor am I the one that is an ignorant fool. Fourth, the photos I posted before came from a Protestant website International Mission Board. Yup,if you want to find historic facts about people that existed before the creation of Christianity,the one place you want to go for the facts are Christian missionaries that are there to recruit. I actually know one of these women personally. She lives maybe 5 miles from me and I have know her,her brothers,and her sister since they were in high school. She went "on missions" to Russia twice,and was planning on going again,but all those little "mini-vacations" is psychiatric lockup kept interfering. They went there several times. And of course they went there before 1920,right? You fit every stereotype of the stupid Pole that has ever existed. You are not only incapable of actual thought,but you don't even understand what you read. You are actually so stupid you take photos from 2015 as illustrations of what people looked like in 1915 in a country that was given a total makeover at bayonet point by Stalin. In Finland,their cousins the Saami were just invaded and outbred. Look at this photo of a Saami family taken in 1900 and compare that to the photos you took of PEOPLE in the Mari Republic taken in recent years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#/media/File:Saami_Family_1900.jpg Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
Maris are a subgroup of Volga Finns "The Volga Finns (sometimes referred to as Eastern Finns are a historical group of indigenous peoples of Russia whose descendants include the Mari people, the Erzya and the Moksha Mordvins, as well as extinct Merya, Muromian and Meshchera people." Finnish tribes that are in large part ancestors of modern Russians are on this map showing time at the end of first millennium. Beside Eastern/Volga Fins you see Veps, Ests and Chudes. Veps, Chudes, Ests (Estonians descend from western part of Ests), two Slavic tribes of Krivichi and Ilmen Slavs, and Eastern Vikings leaders Rus, were the founders of original Russia/Rus. (This early Rus/Russia with capitals in Ladoga and Novgorod, later moved down south, conquering Khazar city of Kiev and moving the center there) Mid 9th century, original Rus/Russia (purple outline), Khazar/Jewish empire (blue outline) Here is an interesting text: === [...] The continued existence of animist (or “pagan”) religious practices among the Finnic-speaking peoples of the middle Volga region, especially the Mari, is usually considered a curiosity. The Mari, after all, are merely one of a plethora of ethnic groups scattered across the vast reaches of Russia, many of which are noted for their distinctive cultural practices. Students of Russia have long been schooled to focus on Russians and the Russian state; occasional nods are made to the Volga Tatars, the restive inhabitants of the Caucasus, the Jews, and a few other crucial or problematic peoples, but the Mari, the Komi, the Mordvins, and the other “eastern Finns” seldom get serious attention. This is unfortunate. As we shall see in the next several Geocurrents postings, the Finnic-speaking peoples of eastern and northern European Russia have played important roles in Russian history. The current post will focus on animism in the region, drawing out lessons for world history from the survival of middle-Volga paganism. The Mari may be a small group relative to the Russians, but at 600,000 they outnumber the entire populations of thirty-three sovereign states. And while not all Maris are animists, animism is also encountered among some of their neighbors. According to a 1997 Russian law, respect is to be officially accorded to the “ancient pagan cults, which have been preserved or are being revived in the republics of Komi, Mari-El, Udmurtia, Chuvashia, Chukhotka and several other subjects of the Russian Federation.” With the exception of Chukhotka, none of these republics is located in a peripheral part of Russia. Mari-El is actually situated near the center of Russia’s European heartland, close to the high-tech city of Nizhny Novgorod, the country’s fourth largest metropolis. The persistence of paganism among such a sizable and centrally located people tells us something significant about the Russian Orthodox Church. Theologically, little separates Eastern Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism; the disagreement that provoked the final split in 1054 is a three-word clause in the basic creed describing relationships within the trinity. In terms of practice, however, the two traditions are worlds apart. Western Christianity has traditionally focused on orthodoxy, enforcing the officially sanctioned belief system of the church. As a result, heretics and pagans alike suffered extreme bouts of persecution before the eighteenth century, with organized animism crushed throughout the Western realm many hundreds of years ago. The Russian Orthodox Church was not exactly passive on this score, playing its part, for example, in the persecution of Russian Jews. But it cared relatively little about the beliefs held by villagers, or about what they did in sacred groves located deep in the forests. Ironically, the Orthodox Church has focused much less on orthodoxy than on orthopraxy, the correct ritual practices of its own adherents. The historical differences between the two religious traditions are illustrated by events of the late 1100s and early 1200s, a period of expansion of Christendom along several fronts. In 1193, Pope Celestine III authorized the Baltic Crusades, a militant assault designed to cleanse the last redoubt of “European” animism along the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea. The Teutonic Knights, the Knights of the Sword, and other crusading orders were given carte blanche to convert or destroy the pagan ancestors of the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and others, reducing their populations to serfdom in the process.* Some groups may have been exterminated. Only the Lithuanians successfully resisted, building a powerful state in the process that allowed them to later accept Christianity on their own political terms. At the same time, the Russian state of Vladimir-Suzdal (successor to Rostov-Suzdal shown on the map) [...] http://www.geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/the-survival-of-animism-in-russia-and-its-destruction-in-the-west
Yes,and none of them were Caucasians. They were more ethnically related to Mongols than anyone else. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
As I said northern/eastern Slavic features are very impacted by large Ugro-Finnish ancestry, Why Russians would play dress up and memorize Mari songs? To deceive naive Westerners and to take over Mari identity? You mean like American hippies imitating Indians? Anthropologically among Ugro-Finnish native Maris are comparable in pigmentation to Hungarians, a little darker, but with more frequent red hair. Blond haired are in minority (7% versus 6% for Hungarians), quite a few brown hair. Just remember that today very many women bleach their hair to look blond, so you will see more "blondes" among Mari women. Light eyed Mari 27.6% versus 34% Hungarian. http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4583817/1/
Yes,and none of them were Caucasians. They were more ethnically related to Mongols than anyone else. Mongol face: Eastern Finns (old photo)
Again, Ugro-Finns: The area between Western and Eastern Finns was absorbed by Russians. Hungarians ventured south west and got separated.
First of all,the top photo is of a modern Asian,and you are comparing it to the photos of original peoples of Finland from the early 1900's,not original peoples from the Stone Age. Secondly,the people in the second photo do look much more like the original peoples than their modern descendants who have mostly Slavic blood,but are dressed in the attire of their time,which is not the same thing as their traditional attire. I bet they also lived in houses instead of teepee's,too. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
You want ancient photo!!! Hmm, cannot be done. What about this picture, is it ancient enough?
It does not work. And if it did work, you'd be stuck with the status quo ante, Mohammedans breeding like rats. I want to reduce the infestation by targeting the rats food supply, water and other infrastructure that allow the population of rats to explode. Seems like you may have butter luck trying to bend the enemy government to your will, rather than hoping for the population to overthrow their government. The jihadists are counting on their high birthrate to out breed us, if you took away their trump card they may be amenable to logic of force where the logic of reason made no impression. The century that gave us air power also provided the state with much greater means of coercion. The example of a case where someone made an enemy nation war weary was Iran, after 8 years of battling Saddam Hussein. He was not a "hearts and minds" kind of guy. We at present lack his will to win, so we should be happy to let nations more serious about fighting go in. Assad should be our guy, a brutal monster is perfect for taking care of business over there. Non auro, sed ferro, recuperando est patria
Of course it works. Not nonsense like strategic bombing,but psychological games including,but not limited to, false flag operations,disinformation, manufactured "facts",blackmail,etc,etc,etc. Nobody ever won a war by killing Privates because nobody in a position to stop a war gives a damn about Privates. You will wars by getting the enemy leadership to turn on each other,and then getting the people to turn on all of them. Why else do you think every police state in history has made controlling the flow of information Priority Number One? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.
#11. To: sneakypete (#8)
Air power is mostly a waste of resources,and used by politicians that don't have the stones to fight an actual war,so they try to do it on the cheap.
#12. To: Don (#10)
(Edited)
Yes, the Muzzes don't care how many people they kill.they would happily kill every man, woman, and child in a country to take over lands for their God
#13. To: nativist nationalist (#9)
The way the MCC fights these lame colonial style wars you could use a plane like the old Douglas Skyraider, rather than tasking a B-1 with engaging a single sniper! The old Spad would have been good for shooting up refugee boats in the Mediterranean too.
#14. To: A Pole (#11)
Saudis by stopping help to the immoderate terrorists.
#15. To: A Pole (#12)
Was America an empty land when the European settlers came.
#16. To: A Pole (#12)
#17. To: Don (#16)
Was it empty when migration began from Asia via the land bridge up North?
#18. To: sneakypete (#4)
ignorant rabble
#19. To: A Pole, Don (#17)
Was it empty when migration began from Asia via the land bridge up North? Apparently it was.
#20. To: sneakypete (#15)
Was eastern Europe?
#21. To: A K A Stone (#19)
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
#22. To: sneakypete (#4)
#23. To: A Pole (#21)
It was 6000 years ago. We are talking about earlier times :)
#24. To: A K A Stone (#23)
Those were the first people in the new world. There was nothing earlier my friend.
#25. To: A Pole (#20)
Was eastern Europe?
#26. To: sneakypete (#25)
The Mari were just one of,and probably the most populous people inhabiting what is now called "Russia" when whites started moving into that land mass from what is now called the Scandinavian countries and western Europe.
#27. To: A K A Stone (#22)
Thing is only Trump would have the balls to pull it off. Wouldn't you agree?
#28. To: A Pole (#26)
Do those Mari people look non white to you?
#29. To: All (#26)
whites started moving into that land mass from what is now called the Scandinavian countries and western Europe.
#30. To: sneakypete (#28)
#31. To: A Pole (#30)
Go there and tell Maris that they are fake and that their traditions and language are made up.
#32. To: sneakypete (#13)
I still disagree with your idea on strategic bombings,though. We firebombed Dresden to the ground during WW-2,and all it did was make the Germans mad and make them think the Nazi's were better than we were.
#33. To: sneakypete (#25)
Was eastern Europe?
#34. To: sneakypete (#31)
I've been there,visited with actual Mari's,or as close as you can come to one today
#35. To: nativist nationalist (#32)
I don't want to try to change their minds.
#36. To: nativist nationalist (#33)
Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia had 14 million peoples when the Pole's moved in in 1945. By 1947 all 14 million were gone, either driven out or killed. Poles are the last people on earth to be lecturing us about this sort of thing.
#37. To: A Pole (#34)
Really? So show the photos to prove that Ugro-Finnish Maris are not white.
#38. To: nativist nationalist (#0)
Since the year of 1996, Islamist leaders, sub-leaders, theologians, field commanders, and fighters-in-the-trenches have said U.S./Western interventionism had motivated them to wage war, that they would kill as many of their enemies as was necessary to rid the Islamic world of Western military interventionists, and that they were waging a religious war, one that their faith required them to fight until they won or were eradicated.
#39. To: sneakypete (#37)
(Edited)
The Mari looked more like American Indians [...]
#40. To: sneakypete (#39)
#41. To: A Pole (#39)
(Edited)
Your obsession with racial purity is not so healthy as you think.
#42. To: sneakypete (#40)
was advancing to the east into the territory of the pagan Volga Finns. Construction of the powerful citadel of Nizhny Novgorod commenced in 1221 near the site of what had been an important fortress of the Mordvins,** a Finnic-speaking people closely related to the Mari (labeled as “Cheremis” on the map). Although campaigns of forced Christianization were periodically launched, most Mordvin villagers remained largely pagan until the 1700s, and retained many aspects of animism, include tree worship, into the 1800s and beyond. Yet those who embraced the Orthodox faith could advance in the church. The famous (or infamous) seventh patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, Nikon (1605-1681), was an ethnic Mordvin, as is the current leader of the faith, Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk, “Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus.”
#43. To: A Pole (#42)
"The Volga Finns (sometimes referred to as Eastern Finns are a historical group of indigenous peoples of Russia whose descendants include the Mari people, the Erzya and the Moksha Mordvins, as well as extinct Merya, Muromian and Meshchera people."
#44. To: sneakypete (#41)
If you have blonde hair,blue eyes,and Slavic features,you are NOT a Mari. You are a Russian playing dress up.
#45. To: sneakypete (#43)
"the Mari people, the Erzya and the Moksha Mordvins, as well as extinct Merya, Muromian and Meshchera people."
#46. To: sneakypete (#45)
(Edited)
#47. To: A Pole (#45)
#48. To: sneakypete (#47)
First of all,the top photo is of a modern Asian
#49. To: sneakypete (#35)
Then you haven't thought this through. The purpose of getting the PEOPLE to change their minds about the their leadership and their participation in war with you is to get the people you are fighting to turn on and overthrow their leadership,thus saving your own lives and wealth.
#50. To: nativist nationalist (#49)
It does not work.
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