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New Discovery! 2023 Hottest in over 120 Million Years 2024 and beyond in prophecy Questions Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: The Origins of the King James Bible Source: Smithsonian URL Source: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart ... -james-bible-180956949/?no-ist Published: Oct 17, 2015 Author: Erin Blakemore Post Date: 2015-10-17 05:19:05 by Willie Green Keywords: None Views: 19855 Comments: 83 A handwritten draft of the world's most famous bible has been discovered in England When an archive yields an unexpected discovery, it's usually cause for celebration. But when that discovery involves the world's most famous bible, scholarly excitement mounts to ecstastic levels. The earliest known draft of the King James Bible has been unearthed at the University of Cambridge, writes Jennifer Schuessler for The New York Times, and it’s being lauded as a critical find for historians. The draft was discovered by Jeffrey Alan Miller, an American scholar conduct in the Cambridge archives. It contains the handwriting of dozens of authors, dating from 1604 to 1608. That handwriting is a crucial find, Schuessler writes, because it reveals how they translated and assembled the text. "There's a strong desire to see the King James Bible as a uniform object, and a belief that it's great because of its collaborative nature," Miller tells Schuessler. "It was incredibly collaborative, but it was done in a much more complicated, nuanced, and at times individualistic way than we've ever really had good evidence to believe." Forty-seven translators and scholars produced the King James Bible, which was first published in 1611. The project dates back to 1604, when King James I decided a new version could help consolidate political power, writes NPR's Barbara Bradley Hagartay. A popular Puritan bible had downplayed the divine right of kings — greatly offending James — and James manipulated different Christian sects until they agreed to produce a different translation. The result became an incredible, long-lasting success. The King James Bible has influenced language, literature and culture for more than 400 years. In the Times Literary Supplement, Miller writes that his discovery suggests that the text may be "far more a patchwork of individual translations — the product of individual translators and individual companies working in individual ways — than has ever been properly recognized." Perhaps there is always more to discover after all. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-40) not displayed.       .       .       . #41. To: redleghunter (#37) The things that God is said to have told them to do, when one thinks about it, are just baffling things that would be dismissed as superstitious tribal traditions and nonsense if they didn't appear in black and white in Scripture. They are tribal traditions arising out of conjecture, ignorance, and fantasy in men's erroneous attempt at understanding the creation, lawfullness and tragedy of the physical world. Some cultures created multiple gods and even contests between Gods in their attempt to devise explanations. We attempt to dignify ours by calling it Scripture. rlk  posted on  2015-11-08   18:07:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #42. To: ebonytwix (#39) Alright. Then I'll point out some that are glaring, and some that are subtle. There are plenty of things that are not contradictions internal to the Bible, but that contradict with Christian traditions. Those AREN'T contradictions - they're examples of the differences between the written tradition and the oral traditions. Here, I'll stick to the actual contradictions. One of the most glaring is the fact that Abraham used the name YHWH and referred to God as YHWH. And yet later, when YHWH is speaking to Moses, He says that he is revealing his name, YHWH, for the first time, that Abraham knew him as El Elyon, but not as YHWH. This is a flat contradiction. The contradiction exists in Hebrew too, but the Hebrew lets you sidle away from it by the fact that the name YHWH is also a verb tense of the verb to be. And if you do that in the Hebrew, you know you're taking some leaps to try to avoid a contradiction that is really there. In English there isn't a way past it though:it's a contradiction. God said to Moses that Abraham didn't know his name YHWH, but Abraham used that very name, and even named a place "YHWH". It's a contradiction. Does that fact MATTER, that it's a contradiction? It matters to "every word dictated" literalists, yes. Doesn't matter to Catholics and Orthodox, though. THere's one. I didn't get the citations because I don't have a Bible in my hand where I am. This is not hard stuff to find, though, if you know your way around the text. Just open Genesis, page to the sections regarding Abraham, and read the story. Note each interaction with God. Use a highlighter. Note that Abraham calls God YHWH, names a place YHWH-something (and the text tells us, helpfully, that it's still called that "to this day"). Now skip over the story of Jacob and Joseph to the story of Moses, early in Exodus, and read Moses' encounter with YHWH in the burning bush. Chapter and verse are not part of Scripture. The stories are. It's better for you to read the stories, so that you have the fuller context. I'm going to restrict my posting to answering you, because you asked. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-08   18:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #43. To: rlk (#40) The comments you responded to are not mine. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-08   19:03:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #44. To: Vicomte13 (#42) One of the most glaring is the fact that Abraham used the name YHWH and referred to God as YHWH. And yet later, when YHWH is speaking to Moses, He says that he is revealing his name, YHWH, for the first time, that Abraham knew him as El Elyon, but not as YHWH. This is a flat contradiction. The contradiction exists in Hebrew too, but the Hebrew lets you sidle away from it by the fact that the name YHWH is also a verb tense of the verb to be. And if you do that in the Hebrew, you know you're taking some leaps to try to avoid a contradiction that is really there. In English there isn't a way past it though:it's a contradiction. God said to Moses that Abraham didn't know his name YHWH, but Abraham used that very name, and even named a place "YHWH". It's a contradiction. Would you post the actual verses to make it more clear? Then explain your position with references to what verses you are talking about. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-08   20:47:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #45. To: Vicomte13 (#42) So why does such contradictions exist? Is it written by two different people and does it invalidate the Bible? ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-08   22:10:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: rlk (#40) They are tribal traditions arising out of conjecture, ignorance, and fantasy in men's erroneous attempt at understanding the creation, lawfullness and tragedy of the physical world. As in a human reincarnated as a butterfly or chimpanzee? Sorry you walked right into that one. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-09   2:55:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #47. To: ebonytwix (#45) So why does such contradictions exist? Is it written by two different people and does it invalidate the Bible? To what extent does a contradiction "invalidate" something? I would say that only the thing that is contradicted is rendered unclear. Did Abraham know the name YHWH or not? Unknown. The Scripture clearly shows that he did, but then says he didn't. So, as to the question itself: did Abraham know the name YHWH or not, the correct answer is: we don't know, because the Bible contradicts. But then we can go on and ask: Does it MATTER? And the answer to the question itself is that it does not. It makes no difference to anything of importance about the Biblical story whether Abraham knew or did not know the specific name "YHWH", that name, versus the others, doesn't make any difference to us in our way of thinking about God. All that the contradiction does is create a massive impediment to those who would make an idol of the Bible by claiming that IT is letter perfect, written by God, and that therefore people can suspend their own reason, and ignore the evidence of their own eyes, ears, hands and minds in favor of what somebody else says about an old book. I think that the old book is very important, because it's the only place where what God said and did at key times in history is recorded. That remains true even if the factual details of the book are not totally reliable. What THAT means, for example, is that people who believe in Young Earth Creationism and people who believe in Very Old Earth Directed Evolution, should not be excommunicating each other regarding God. To use a famous quote: "The Bible teaches how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go." Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-09   11:29:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #48. To: Vicomte13 (#47) Well, usually people will held up standards of truth to have no perceived invalidating information (which is usually found in a contradiction as you said, or a lack of source, ect) since truth is supposed to be wholly objective and flat out there. With contradictions, it puts out a rise of suspicion of the legitimacy of the source since it made an error, especially the legitimacy of other texts as well. Many people in America who are Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe. So did we really evolve from monkeys or was Adam and Eve all a metaphor for us to understand more? By the way, I agree with you completely, just up for a little debate :) ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-09   17:54:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: ebonytwix (#48) With contradictions, it puts out a rise of suspicion of the legitimacy of the source since it made an error, especially the legitimacy of other texts as well. A mathematical hypothesis is refuted by a single counterexample. Life isn't math. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-09   18:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #50. To: ebonytwix (#48) Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe The Bible doesn't state that about the Bible, because the Bible never references itself. Within the Scriptures there are references to "Scripture", but of course "scripture" just means "writing". Undoubtedly it referred to writings that Jews and Christians considered to be sacred, set apart, holy, but there was never, and still is not, full agreement on what set of writings really ARE "THE Scriptures" - books are in or out of different canons. And even within a given canonical tradition, there is not agreement on which ancient manuscripts are the most reliable. Every single ancient manuscript is handwritten - the printing press wasn't invented until the 1400s - and no two ancient manuscripts are alike. There are differences between every one of them. So, what exactly is "Scripture"? And what does "perfect" mean? The real answer to the whole question is this: don't make idols out of books and specific pieces of paper, or languages: the letter kills but the spirit gives life. God had a pretty short set of GENERAL PRINCIPLES for guiding human life, so that humans could be healthy and happy and harmoniously fill their role of world dominion. And that is what the Bible is: a collection of histories - of what God said, the "pointed out path" - pointed out by God - THAT is what "Torah" really means. It doesn't mean "law", it means "pointed out path" - the marked path through the howling desert for the safety of the shepherd and his flock. Step off the path and you might survive, but then again, you might not. So here's the path. "Law", especially in the minds of Gentile half-pagans, is a think that is ENFORCED, it is the RIGHT to power, to dominate. But the path pointed out by God for us is that path through a dangerous desert pointed out by a loving Father. The Law punishes. But the real world hurts and harms because of its nature, and the Pointed Out Path is the way THROUGH the world with all of its risks and pitfalls, so that one arrives safely with one's sheep at the oasis. Even the mindset of God and men is different. Men restlessly seek power, dominion and the power to judge. And they twist God into that image, because God judges. He DOES judge, but everything that happens -for good or ill - is his judgment. He doesn't think like us. The Bible is a RECORD of some of the things that God said, the important ones. God repeats himself, a lot, because in the Scriptures he is talking to a bunch of different people at different times, and he is speaking to them in their condition - and he knows their hearts - so sometimes the things he said that are recorded really had MEANING to the one hearing it, but those bystanders also hearing it heard words without the inner context of the target hearer, and formed their own conclusion. "None comes to the Father except through me" is true, but it doesn't mean "Nobody but non-Catholic Christians makes it into the City of God". Men STRAIN to turn a written set of oral histories into a LAW book, because they crave LAW, COMMAND, AUTHORITY. Then, having a book, they put verse numbers and chapters into it that God never put there, and try to turn a loose oral history, written down, into a tight set of legal principles and statutes. The Pharisees did not less, and Jesus didn't like them much. Truth is, the oral histories written down convey a GENERAL MESSAGE from God, a GENERAL SET OF PRINCIPLES, and give a GENERAL view of whence we came (from God) and whence we are going (back to God), and then a few very specific things that really, REALLY make God angry. This means that people have to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all things, and just have the written-down oral history as a BACKSTOP. If the "Holy" Spirit is urging you to go on a tear of killing people, you know that's not really the HOLY Spirit doing that, because God spoke long and loud about that. And so forth. The Bible can lead you to God, to walk on the pointed-out-path, but it can lead you away from God pretty fast too, if you read it as a lawbook and read into it that YOU are the law enforcer. You're not. No matter who you are. And you never, ever will be. If that is what you crave, then the path you're walking is not the Pointed- Out Path from God, Crave something different instead. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-09   18:34:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: Vicomte13, ebonytwix, redleghunter, don (#50) To: ebonytwix Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe The Bible doesn't state that about the Bible, because the Bible never references itself. First I will give you the full chapter King James version to refute Vics ridicuout ascertation. Then I will highlight a few points. 2 Timothy Chapter 3 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:44:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #52. To: Vicomte13, ebonytwix, redleghunter, don (#50) To: ebonytwix Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe The Bible doesn't state that about the Bible, because the Bible never references itself. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #53. To: Vicomte13, ebonytwix, redleghunter, don (#50) To: ebonytwix Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe The Bible doesn't state that about the Bible, because the Bible never references itself. 2 Timothy 3 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #54. To: Vicomte13, ebonytwix, redleghunter, don (#50) To: ebonytwix Christians certainly believe the Bible is perfect, and the Bible itself states that I believe The Bible doesn't state that about the Bible, because the Bible never references itself. 2 Timothy 3 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:49:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #55. To: Vicomte13, ebonytwix, A K A Stone, GarySpFc, Don (#42) One of the most glaring is the fact that Abraham used the name YHWH and referred to God as YHWH. And yet later, when YHWH is speaking to Moses, He says that he is revealing his name, YHWH, for the first time, that Abraham knew him as El Elyon, but not as YHWH. This is a flat contradiction. The contradiction exists in Hebrew too, but the Hebrew lets you sidle away from it by the fact that the name YHWH is also a verb tense of the verb to be. And if you do that in the Hebrew, you know you're taking some leaps to try to avoid a contradiction that is really there. In English there isn't a way past it though:it's a contradiction. God said to Moses that Abraham didn't know his name YHWH, but Abraham used that very name, and even named a place "YHWH". It's a contradiction. Yes these passages are in the Hebrew and as such Hebrew is concrete, yet profound. So, profoundly concrete or concretely profound. That's the first approach to these passages. The second but first in importance is that as Christians we know God is not a liar and does not make mistakes. The third approach is: God is not a God of confusion. The next one (which not all Christians agree on due to protecting their human traditions) is: God is a God who is sovereign and protects the transmission of His Truth to include what He revealed in writing. Some call this the "God comes both with Word and Power." So taking the above we don't have a contradiction because God preserves what He transmits; He is not a liar; He does not promote confusion and certainly does not make mistakes. So there is no contradiction. We must look at the concrete yet profound and look to other areas of the TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah to gain an understanding. Or we must look directly at the passages you refer to and profoundly look for the concrete meaning or concretely look at what is profoundly already there. Or do both. The key, IMO, to the friction of the passage is found in the original promise God made with Abraham in Genesis, His continued communication of the promise in space and time then compared to what is going on in Exodus and beyond in space and time; and then come to realize YHWH is MUCH more than the sum of the parts. He is Eternal. The answer is profoundly in The Name. So if this is not a contradiction then what is it? Put simply it is a difficult very Hebrew profound concept. So we can explore the better Hebrew scholars of history if interested. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-09   19:53:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #56. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter, don (#50) And even within a given canonical tradition, there is not agreement on which ancient manuscripts are the most reliable. 2 timothy 3:5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 timothy 3:7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. It seems to me Vic doesn't believe in the power of God to have a true version of the Bible for Gods people to read. God must want us all confused. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:54:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #57. To: redleghunter (#55) I'll have to read that again. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   19:56:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #58. To: A K A Stone (#57) I understand...it was concretely profound or profoundly concrete. Have not decided which yet. But I conclude as a Christian that it cannot be a contradiction. Because God does not lie, does not make mistakes and is quite capable of preserving His revelations and words to mankind. I will post some ideas from one of the greatest expounders of the Hebrew mind from the West when I finish my time with Jr. Redlegs instruction for the evening. From John Gill. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-09   20:14:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #59. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#58) But I conclude as a Christian that it cannot be a contradiction. Because God does not lie, does not make mistakes and is quite capable of preserving His revelations and words to mankind. God has repented though. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-09   20:32:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #60. To: A K A Stone (#59) God has repented though. I'm not even a believer and that doesn't make any sense to me. What ever happened to the concept of "God gave man free will"? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012) sneakypete  posted on  2015-11-09   21:18:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #61. To: A K A Stone (#59) Please explain. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-09   22:48:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #62. To: sneakypete, A K A Stone (#60) What ever happened to the concept of "God gave man free will"? I think AKA is referring to God changing a declared judgment based on his compassion, grace, mercy and longsuffering. For example in Jonah. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-09   22:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #63. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#61) Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. A K A Stone  posted on  2015-11-10   0:14:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #64. To: sneakypete (#60) "God gave man free will"? Yes that's true. The account of the Garden of Eden teaches that we have free will. Most atheists miss this point. They usually say a loving God would not allow us to make mistakes, sin or get ill, or injured even die. The billion dollar question is why did God give us free will? If we can honestly answer that, then many chips fall in place. The answer is in the open and is demonstrated each day between humans. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   0:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #65. To: A K A Stone, ebonytwix (#63) Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. "Repented" in the lexicon can mean the following: to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted To be sorry or sorrowful seems to fit modern English with the Hebrew lexicon. Gets back to ebony's question on free will. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   0:21:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #66. To: Vicomte13 (#50) >A mathematical hypothesis is refuted by a single counterexample. Life isn't math. People say life, the way it's calculated through science, ect, is very related to Math. ___ Otherwise, yeah, I agree with you. Some questions though, why does God tend to repeat Himself? And how does one know the Spirit one feel's in their heart is really of God? Didn't the Bible say that men's heart deceive themselves.. I'm not sure which context that was in. ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-10   3:45:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #67. To: Vicomte13 (#50) Also, this is going to seem a little out there, but what about the words the bible says about women and men? Particularly their roles and ect. Is it the context of time, actually how God sees it and intended to be, or...? ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-10   3:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #68. To: A K A Stone (#52) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Of course! Tobit and Wisdom, Sirach and 1 and 2 Maccabbees, Judith - all of that Scripture, inspired by God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. Trouble for you is, you say that isn't Scripture. Scripture does not define what Scripture is. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-10   9:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #69. To: ebonytwix (#66) Some questions though, why does God tend to repeat Himself? And how does one know the Spirit one feel's in their heart is really of God? God repeats himself in part because people need to hear things many times before they take it to heart, and in part because the Scripture is merely a record of God actually speaking to people. God speaks to different people at different times, saying the same basic things. So, whenever the account of a different person is given, God appears to be repeating himself, to us, as readers. But those encounters with God were not experienced by the individuals having the encounter as a book, but as a conversation - a conversation that God had with many different people. If you look at the Gospels, you will see Jesus repeating a lot of the material in the Sermon on the Mount (in Matthew) that he says also in the Sermon on the Plain (in Luke). There was no printing press in those days. Most people were illiterate. There were no newspapers, no pamphlets, no radios, no tv. Jesus gave a sermon in one place, and when he went to a different place, the only way those different people were going to hear what he had to say was by him saying it. But he wasn't a tape recorder. He said slightly different things in one place and in the next. Each audience heard the one thing. There are inconsistencies between what he said in one place and in another. But his audiences had no written materials to compare to what he said before. WE do, but all we have are remembered accounts of what he said, recorded by people who were not eyewitnesses, or writing decades later. Maybe the words are verbatim what he said, and he really said different things - so the inconsistency itself is part of the message (and tells us that to understand we need to look higher). Or maybe what he said he meant for THOSE PEOPLE RIGHT THERE LISTENING, and NOT us, because he knew THEIR hearts, but our hearts are different. Or maybe the inconsistencies are due to differences in memory by the writers, or differences in manuscripts. This is why trying to be mathematical about this will fail. The inconsistencies are real, and pervasive, because of the nature of what the text IS. People who strain to make it what it is not have to resort to handwaving. Truth is, the moral message is clear throughout. That isn't garbled. And that's the "Pointed Out Path". The Bible is inspired by God, but it's just a written record of what God said and did. It is full of flaws and inconsistencies. Letter-perfection isn't there, and God obviously didn't think it was NECESSARY for what he was trying to convey by inspiring it. Post-printing-press Christians turn it into an idol by pretending that it is more than what it is. It is not perfect. It is not letter perfect. It is inconsistent on many things. And the Christians who are most idolatrous about the "letter perfection" of the Bible are also the ones who have edited Scripture the most violently, casting aside whole BOOKS of the Scripture because some guys 1500 years after the fact didn't like those books being in the canon. Bibliolatry, like any other idolatry, cannot lead you to life, only to endless disputes and death. It is not in the letter of Scripture that the truth is to be found, but in the Spirit that inspired it. Common themes of morality run through Scripture from beginning to end. God's direct words only amount to about 8% of the text. The rest is history and wisdom and poetry ABOUT God or men of God. If you focus on what God said, you will find a morally consistent message, and an uncomfortable one. Bibliolaters seek to elevate other parts of Scripture, ones that contradict what God said directly, to make doctrines that obscure the hard things God demands of us and substitute what they, the bibliolators, prefer. It's a sterile path that leads into the waterless desert to follow them there. Nobody can teach this stuff to you. God and his spirit can teach you yourself. Get a Bible written in English at the level you understand. I would suggest the Orthodox Study Bible, because it has both testaments and doesn't come from "Jacob or Esau" (the warring Catholics and Protestants). Sit down with a gel marker that won't bleed through the page, and start at Genesis, read, and highlight every place where God Himself speaks. The first word you will highlight (in English) is probably "Let". (For God said, "Let there be light". Progress through the Scriptures in this way. Highlight also what God's angels say. And while you're at it, highlight what the serpent or evil angels say (in a different color), because these are the words of the supernatural beings. In Satan's words you'll see how Satan twists the minds of men. In God's words you will find the pointed-out path. God will point them out to you. In the New Testament, the words of Jesus may ALREADY be printed in red, but you need to read anyway, because the Scriptures have no quotation marks in them, and some things that are not highlighted in red are also God's words (the Father speaks from Heaven a few times, and angels speak, and those words are not printed in red). Also, some words that are printed in red may not, within the context, have actually been spoken by Jesus. There are places in John where it is not clear whether Jesus is speaking, or John is providing an explanation in the middle of the text. Once you've completed that exercise, go back to the beginning and read again, just reading the words you have highlighted. You will discover that the message is clear and integrated, though sometimes inconsistent on details (El Elyon vs. YHWH in Abraham's mouth, for example). You're going to realize that what God laid out of old is mostly repeated by Jesus, and explained, and in many cases shortened, but in other cases intensified. Then you'll know what is expected of you. That's the way to use the Scriptures properly. You'll note that what is expected of you is DEEDS, things that engage you in the world. Endless bickering about Scripture and God is not only NOT expected of you, it's bad for you...which is another reason why bibliolatry is a bad error: it wastes oceans of time. Every king of Israel was supposed to write his own copy of the Torah - the pointed-out path. That's what you're doing when you highlight the words of God and focus on them - and then writing them down. Then you will have written out your own Torah, like a King of Israel, and you will know what to do. Arguing with cannibals online isn't going to really get you to the light. Let God lead you to the light. The way I have suggested is the best way. 2000 pages of Scripture resolves to about 150 pages of God's words, and when you de-dupe those words, you end up with perhaps 50 pages. Distilled down to concepts, its one page - a bit more than 10 Commandments, but the purest of refined gold. Then stop talking about it and do it. Advice I myself would do well to follow! Have I answered your questions? I came back to do this because you asked me to. I think I've given you the keys to the car, how to go do yourself the thing that will best open yourself to the Holy Spirit to then guide you. Oh, and how do you know that the Spirit is Holy? When you encounter a spirit, ask a few things. First, acknowledge Jesus is your lord. Does the spirit agree? Does the spirit agree that Jesus is Son of God? If it does, you're not completely safe (Satan did not flee at the face of Jesus, but challenged him and offered him things). You can't form final conclusions until you're all the way through and seen Jesus' final words on the matter, but once you're there, is the Spirit with you agreeing with Jesus and guiding you, or is it resisting and telling you to do something else? Is the spirit trying to worm out of hard commandments such as forgiveness, truthfulness, avoiding judgmentalism, open-handed giving and non-domination of men over men in religion? If the spirit is trying to pull you away from Jesus to something easier and more confortable, it is not a trustworthy spirit. But if the spirit is foursquare there with you and YHWH and Jesus straight through, then it's real. I don't think there is much more to say. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-10   10:58:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #70. To: ebonytwix (#67) Also, this is going to seem a little out there, but what about the words the bible says about women and men? Particularly their roles and ect. Is it the context of time, actually how God sees it and intended to be, or...? "The Bible" is all of it. Read what God said IN the Bible from "Let their be light" through Jesus. Highlight it, reread those parts. Dedupe the repetitions and write out the path pointed out for you by God through his Son and the spirit, the words of God in Scripture. Once you do that, you will realize that God doesn't make a distinction in the path. You are to be truthful, be brave, be sexually moral, worship God, follow Christ, avoid addictions and idolatry, educate your children and take care of your parents, be generous to your brothers and sisters in need and don't store up wealth, leave judging others up to God, and forgive everybody. There's nothing in God's Pointed-Out-Path that makes a tinker's dam of difference whether you're male or female. The Bible is also a history book, and God was dealing with people who had slaves and harsh gender roles, and he gave rules to mitigate those things in ancient Israel. But with Jesus, we have the path pointed out, and the gender rules of old are not on that. Paul espoused the gender roles within the Church that HE preferred, in his letter to Timothy: no women teach. Ignore Paul on this. Jesus was of a different opinion - the first time he revealed his lordship to non-Jews was to the Samaritans, he did it to the woman at the well (St. Photini), and she went and told her people all about him. That's what brought people to Jesus. Likewise, when Jesus rose from the dead, he first revealed himself to a woman, and it was a woman who informed the apostles. And at the cross, when all of the male Apostles but John fled, who remained? The women. So, Paul, a Jew and a Roman, had his cultural view of women, and he wrote it as his rule to Timothy. But Jesus behaved very differently. So, what is the correct answer to this conflict? Jesus is God. Paul is not. Therefore Jesus trumps Paul. Paul had his reasons, in his culture and time. But those reasons were human weaknesses of their cultures. God has always used women to teach men, and lead men, Old Testament and new. Jesus did. And THAT is the correct model. There are biologically assigned roles of men and women for the fathering and mothering of children. God has not assigned spiritual roles to the two, and both are equally acceptable as his followers. That's how Jesus behaved. And Jesus overrides every contradictory thing in the Bible, because he's the risen Son of God, and has the last word on everything. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-10   11:26:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #71. To: ebonytwix (#66) People say life, the way it's calculated through science, ect, is very related to Math. Math is a language devised by people to describe the things we see. To the extent we have made the language useful, it accurately describes things. To the extent that the language of math ceases to describe what is real, the math simply devolves into a human mental game that is unmoored from reality. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-10   11:27:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #72. To: ebonytwix (#66) And how does one know the Spirit one feel's in their heart is really of God? Didn't the Bible say that men's heart deceive themselves.. I'm not sure which context that was in. In the Gospels and apostles' epistles in the NT, their is a strong theme. That is: anyone filled with God's Holy Spirit produces good fruit. Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit." There's much more. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   15:56:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #73. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#69) Bibliolatry I really don't know what bibliolatry is. Unless one considers the words contained in the TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah as a machination of man or a man-made organization. We know from Holy Scriptures that men make idols with their hands after believing it in their heart. If you mean that someone worships the Bible as some list of do's and don'ts to hold power over others, that's possible. But it shows they don't read it and only thump it as a blunt object. But if someone says: the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Then I would say they are sound in their observations and not using the Bible as an idol. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   16:15:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #74. To: redleghunter (#72) Thanks. Fruit meaning offspring, correct? ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-10   17:36:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #75. To: Vicomte13 (#71) Haha not spirits, but rather, when I pray to God and I feel a voice in my heart - I cannot explain it, but it feels gentle and guides me. It doesn't contradict the Bible, but sometimes it answers my questions whether or not the people I know intentions are bad (for my own safety) or their character in my personal relationship with them. It's not words, but it's feelings and guidance. Also, for some reason when I talk about God or I am reminded about His love, I feel cold, but in a loving way. I don't know why though, I hope there isn't some confusion or miscommunication on my part. I know some other women who are like this who are strong Christians with a more spiritual/emotional side as opposed to your moral/rational approach to it (or what appears to be). Maybe it's how He relates to certain people, or rather how we perceive it. Sorry for rambling. I have the Bible with me now, it's a copy of it and I read some of it. Yes, I need to do what you said. First I need to type of pens you said to get. I thought there were some like wife must be submissive and obey her husband and he must lead, ect? Or women more suit to domestic roles, ect. ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-10   17:40:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #76. To: ebonytwix (#74) The actions of the follower of Christ. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   18:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #77. To: ebonytwix (#75) I thought there were some like wife must be submissive and obey her husband and he must lead, ect? Or women more suit to domestic roles, ect. What if Hillary Clinton obeyed the above reference? It would have solved a multitude of problems:) "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   18:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #78. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#56) I promised from an earlier post to address Exodus 6:3. Again I don't observe a contradiction or error. What we have is IMO a paradox. Exodus 6: 6:2–5. Then God reminded Moses of His character as revealed in His name Yahweh (cf. 3:14). The words I am the Lord occur four times in 6:2–8. As the Lord, Yahweh, He is with His own and is always faithful and true to them. Why did God say that by His name the Lord He had not made Himself known to the patriarchs? Was not God known by the name Yahweh to the patriarchs Abraham … Isaac, and Jacob? Yes, He had been (e.g., Gen. 13:4). But He mainly appeared to them as God Almighty (’l šadday), the One who provides or sustains (cf. comments on Gen. 17:1). He had not displayed Himself to the patriarchs primarily by the name Yahweh. So in Exodus 3:14 God meant that now He was revealing Himself to Moses not only as Sustainer and Provider, but also as the Promise-Keeper, the One who was personally related to His people and would redeem them (cf. comments on 3:14–15).. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6 redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-10   18:16:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #79. To: ebonytwix (#75) Paul told wives to submit to their husbands and husbands to love their wives. He also said that there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Jesus told us to love one another. So that is what we should do: love one another.. Jesus is Lord, and is one with the Father, and knows what he's talking about. What Jesus says is a commandment from the lips of God. What Paul says is a suggestion for happiness, in his opinion. It is not a commandment from God, and it should not be interpreted as one. There is no domination in true religion, and there is no domination in love either. Paul also said that. Paul wrote a lot of letters to different people who had different needs. He isn't entirely consistent, but that's ok...UNLESS one is trying to be a mathematician and apply the non-contradiction principle to every word of Scripture, written at whatever time, in comparison to every other word, written at whatever time, by whomever, regarding whatever. If you do that with Paul, you end up with a hot mess. Of course, there's a time and a season for everything, and Paul wrote to different people in different times and seasons. When you do your highlighting exercise, you will find that you highlight only a few sentences in all of Paul, because Paul only quotes God verbatim a few times (in Hebrews most of all...that is, assuming that Paul wrote that one). Of course, when Paul speaks of "Scripture", he is not speaking of his own letters. He is speaking of what was Scripture at the time HE was writing, which is to say, the Jewish Scriptures. Vicomte13  posted on  2015-11-10   22:19:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #80. To: Vicomte13 (#79) Interesting, thank you. A lot of traditional Christians who follow the Bible straight and believe in strong spirituality believe ardently in that wife-husband model. I do, too. It feels natural to me but I think there shouldn't be an extreme in power imbalance. Do you follow that model or thinking when it comes to women? I assumed since it was in the Bible, and not canceled out by Jesus' or God's words it was significant - I mean, a lot of people attribute poor female- male sexual and social relations to the extreme liberation that women have recently. but.. you know more than me. ebonytwix  posted on  2015-11-10   22:49:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . 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