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Title: We Live in a World Where Experts Say the Shooting of Tamir Rice Was ‘Reasonable’
Source:
Reason
URL Source: https://reason.com/blog/2015/10/12/ ... -a-world-where-experts-say-the
Published: Oct 12, 2015
Author: Robby Soave
Post Date: 2015-10-13 15:27:51 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 1018
Comments: 16
When a grand jury decides whether to indict officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback for the murder of 12-year-old Tamir Rice in a park in Cleveland last winter, they will consider two independent reports, commissioned by the prosecutor’s office, which reached the same conclusion: the use of deadly force was “objectively reasonable.” This means that under the law, in the opinion of two investigators, Loehmann did nothing wrong when he shot a teen—who was armed with only an airsoft gun—within seconds of encountering him. According to the first report, compiled by S. Lamar Sims, a Colorado prosecutor: “There can be no doubt that Rice's death was tragic and, indeed, when one considers his age, heartbreaking. However, for all of the reasons discussed herein, I conclude that Officer Loehmann's belief that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat.” And the second report, written by a retired FBI agent named Kimberly Crawford: “According to the Supreme Court, the standard that must be used to evaluate a law enforcement officer’s use of deadly force is one of objective reasonableness. The question is not whether every officer would have reacted the same way. Rather, the relevant inquiry is whether a reasonable officer, confronting the exact same scenario under identical conditions could have concluded that deadly force was necessary. Based on the proceeding discussion, and in light of my training and experience, it is my conclusion that Officer Loehmann’s use of deadly force falls within the realm of reasonableness under the dictates of the Fourth Amendment.” People who have seen the full video footage, or read about the other troubling details, might wonder how anyone could possibly reach the conclusion that the shooting was justified. To review: a tipster told the police dispatcher that Rice was playing with a “probably fake” gun, but this detail was not relayed to the responding officers; rather than approaching from a distance, Garmback parked his vehicle nearly on top of Rice; Loehmann — an officer-in-training who was fired from a previous police job because of incompetence with firearms — pulled the trigger before Rice could properly react to the situation, ostensibly because the teen reached for the fake gun he was carrying inside his waistband; both cops allowed Rice to bleed on the ground for several minutes, doing nothing until an FBI agent turned up; they prevented Rice’s sister from helping him, instead handcuffing her and placing her in the squad car while her brother’s life drained away. But according to the reports, it doesn’t matter whether the shooting seems justified in hindsight—it only matters whether a reasonable officer, in the same position as Loehmann, would have reacted in the same way. In other words, the multitude of factors suggesting the cops should have refrained from shooting Rice add up to nothing. The only thing that matters is Loehmann’s own subjective view of the threat to his own person. That threat was nonexistent, but Loehmann didn’t see it that way, which makes the shooting justified in the opinion of the only person who counts. Over at his blog, Simply Justice, Scott Greenfield laments that the conclusion in the Rice case is foregone because of the Supreme Court’s deference to paranoid policing: By eliminating from consideration any bit of information that didn’t support the murder of Tamir Rice, you end up with a report that says killing him was reasonable. By applying caselaw that bends over backward to preclude any view that wasn’t the killer’s, there can be only one objectively reasonable conclusion. … You don’t see it? I don’t see it? We don’t count. We’re not trained to see what a cop’s eye sees. Greenfield points out that despite the investigators’ exhausting efforts to explain away inconvenient details as irrelevant to Loehmann’s parsing of the situation, there is still one nontrivial fact that goes unaddressed: the cops never gave Rice verbal instructions before killing him: Even so, there was one stumbling block that Sims and Crawford were constrained to fudge, that in the one to two seconds between Loehmann jumping out of the car and leaving a dead boy on the ground, there was no shout of “freeze” or “hands up.” There was no order with which Tamir Rice refused to comply. Much like the John Crawford case—in which an officer gunned down a man for carrying a pellet rifle inside a Wallmart that sold those very weapons—the totality of the circumstances just don’t apply. Crawford’s killers claimed they gave him orders that he ignored, but the video evidence established that they shot the man immediately, just like Rice. Crawford’s grand jury declined to indict the cops, even though Crawford’s family could credibly show that the officers lied about their justification for shooting him. Those who want justice for Rice should gird themselves for disappointment. In the eyes of the law, only one person’s life matters—irrespective of the actual threat to that life—and it certainly isn’t the 12-year-old boy’s. The cop's life is the only one that matters, even if the threat is nonexistent.
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#1. To: Deckard (#0)
That's why the USSC has ruled that... "The question is not whether every officer (or LF poster) would have reacted the same way... Rather, the relevant inquiry is whether a reasonable officer (or LF poster) confronting the exact same scenario under identical conditions could have concluded that deadly force was necessary. Deckard lacks reasonableness due to his bias hatred. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
No they say it is reasonable for an officer to fear for his life and shoot a dumbass kid aiming an object that looks like a gun. In fact the object was a modified pistol where someone took the orange safety indicator off the barrel of the "gun" so the officer would think twice about using deadly force. It was a sucky situation where both the family of the dumbass kid and the officer and his family will have to live with forever. Your such a blind asshat at times. This is a clear cut case of stupid meets deadly force and stupid lost! Now who is going to cry for the officer who was forced to kill a stupid kid?
I have to agree. Si vis pacem, para bellum Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.
....in the one to two seconds between Loehmann jumping out of the car and leaving a dead boy on the ground, there was no shout of “freeze” or “hands up.” There was no order with which Tamir Rice refused to comply. In the eyes of the law, only one person’s life matters—irrespective of the actual threat to that life—and it certainly isn’t the 12-year-old boy’s. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much Yeah. And the officer didn't read him his rights, either.
When object that looks like a real gun is aimed at the officer then the officer doesn't have to give command as long as they feel their life if threatend with deadly force. Half a second is a long time when a gun is pointed at you. Another words to those that are slow. Point a gun at someone even a fake gun will get you shot with out "Oh please mister thug would you please not shot me and can you please put your gun away!"
Have you ever been shot at? I have,and let me tell you ,nobody in their right mind is going to be wasting oxygen or time saying stupid crap like "Freeze" when they look up and see what seems to be a gun already pointed at them. Your entire focus is suddenly on taking the SOB down so you don't get shot. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
When I read that the cop who murdered Rice was an officer-in-training who was fired from a previous police job because of incompetence with firearms, I have to wonder why he was allowed to be armed in the first place. This whole episode stinks to high heaven and if the shooter would have been a civilian instead of a member of the protected class, it would have been murder. Since a cop was the shooter, it' s considered "just doing his job". In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much If it had been you that was in the cops situation, and you thought someone was pointing a gun at you, what would you do? I would think and hope courts would decide the same way if these were both just citizens, and not one of them being LE.
The fake gun was never pointed AT the cop. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much The fake gun was not being pointed at the cops when the kid was shot. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much Exactly... and if the same happened to an armed Deckard, he'd shoot as fast as he could get a shot off too... but cops aren't as important as any other American in Huey's world. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
You give away your biases when you write the word "murdered". That clearly implies that there is nothing in the world that will convince you he wasn't. If he were to come back to life and say he didn't blame the cop,you wouldn't believe him. There are lots of things I don't know,but one thing I do know is that if I even suspect you are pointing a gun at me I will blow your head off if I can get to mine first. I don't give a rabid rats ass if you are black or white,12 or 112,you are going to die. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
What difference does that make? He had the damn thing in his hand,was very close to the cop,and it would have taken him only an instant to point it at the cop and shoot him to death. Yes,this death is a tragedy. It is also a tragedy that nobody taught him about the consequences of pointing a gun/a replica that looks like a gun,at a cop that already has a gun in his hand and is afraid. Truth to tell,those cops did the US gene pool a favor. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
From the video I saw, the "gun" was in the kid's waistband when he was murdered. He didn't have a chance. The cop shot him before the car even came to a stop.
Really? WTF.....
People who have seen the full video footage, or read about the other troubling details, might wonder how anyone could possibly reach the conclusion that the shooting was justified.
#2. To: Deckard (#0)
We Live in a World Where Experts Say the Shooting of Tamir Rice Was ‘Reasonable’
#3. To: Justified (#2)
" This is a clear cut case of stupid meets deadly force and stupid lost! "
#4. To: Justified, Frand Island, Stoner (#2)
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#5. To: Deckard (#4)
....in the one to two seconds between Loehmann jumping out of the car and leaving a dead boy on the ground, there was no shout of “freeze” or “hands up.”
#6. To: Deckard (#4)
....in the one to two seconds between Loehmann jumping out of the car and leaving a dead boy on the ground, there was no shout of “freeze” or “hands up.” There was no order with which Tamir Rice refused to comply.
#7. To: Deckard (#4)
..in the one to two seconds between Loehmann jumping out of the car and leaving a dead boy on the ground, there was no shout of “freeze” or “hands up.”
#8. To: sneakypete (#7)
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#9. To: Deckard (#8)
#10. To: Justified (#6)
When object that looks like a real gun is aimed at the officer then the officer doesn't have to give command as long as they feel their life if threatend with deadly force.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#11. To: Dead Culture Watch (#9)
If it had been you that was in the cops situation, and you thought someone was pointing a gun at you, what would you do?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#12. To: Justified (#6)
When object that looks like a real gun is aimed at the officer then the officer doesn't have to give command as long as they feel their life if threatend with deadly force. Half a second is a long time when a gun is pointed at you.
#13. To: Deckard (#8)
When I read that the cop who murdered Rice was an officer-in-training who was fired from a previous police job because of incompetence with firearms, I have to wonder why he was allowed to be armed in the first place.
#14. To: Deckard (#11)
The fake gun was not being pointed at the cops when the kid was shot.
#15. To: Dead Culture Watch, Sneakypete (#9)
#16. To: Logsplitter (#15)
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