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Title: The Case for Kim Davis
Source: Huffington Post
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanl ... e-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html
Published: Sep 9, 2015
Author: Stanley Fish
Post Date: 2015-09-15 15:51:22 by nolu chan
Keywords: None
Views: 10127
Comments: 84

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html

The Case for Kim Davis

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/09/2015 9:05 am EDT
Updated: 09/09/2015 2:59 pm EDT

In much of the mainstream media Kim Davis's case is regarded as cut and dried: She sought an office that requires its holder to license marriages according to the law; the law now recognizes a union between persons of the same sex as a valid marriage; when Davis refuses to issue licenses to same sex-couples because according to her religion marriage is a union between a man and a woman, she puts herself above the law she has pledged to uphold and carry out; end of story.

But it's not that simple. When federal judge David Bunning declared that people cannot be allowed "to choose what orders they follow" just because their conscience tells them to -- religious faith, he said, "is not a viable of defense" -- he was signing on to Justice Antonin Scalia's reasoning in Employment Division v. Smith (1990). Two Native Americans who had been denied employment compensation benefits because they had ingested peyote during a church ceremony claimed an exemption from the law governing controlled substances; their behavior, they argued, was protected under the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion. Scalia responded by citing Reynolds v. United States: "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land." Democratic government, Scalia added, "must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself."

Although these sentiments have the sound of common sense, they were received in 1990 as "a revolution in Free Exercise jurisprudence" (Steven Gey, Religion and the State) because they went against a then-established tradition of deferring to religiously inspired action even when it conflicted with a generally applicable law. Sherbert v. Verner (1963), for example, turns on the denial of unemployment benefits to a Seventh Day Adventist because she declined work that required her to show up on Saturdays. Lower courts upheld the denial, but the Supreme Court reversed it, holding that no one should be forced to choose between "abandoning one of the precepts of her religion" and securing a job; the burden on free exercise is just too great. (Hello, Kim Davis.)

Obviously, these two decisions (and there are many more on either side of the divide) offer different templates for determining how to think about Kim Davis: from the perspective of Smith, Judge Bunning got it right; from the perspective of Sherbert, the state should find a way to accommodate Davis's deeply held beliefs and not exact as the price for adhering to them her employment and her physical freedom. (She has now been released, but after having been jailed for six days.)

What makes things so sticky is that the conflict between these two perspectives is built into the free exercise clause itself: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The question (and it is a question that cannot be answered by just parsing the text) is, What does it mean to freely exercise one's religion? Scalia gives one answer in Smith when he draws a line between the having and expressing of religious convictions and the conduct a believer might engage in because she thinks those convictions command it. In his view, free exercise extends only to the thought and expression part; "otherwise prohibitable conduct" is not saved, he says, merely because it is "accompanied by religious convictions."

But this severe take on the matter raises the question of why there is a free exercise clause in the first place. If thinking and publishing religious thoughts is what is being protected, the free expression clause of the First Amendment takes care of that already. Why have an additional clause unless it is to protect something additional, and what could that something additional be except the actions that follow necessarily in the eyes of the believer from the beliefs she is committed to? Many who agree with Bunning's ruling say that Davis is still free to practice her religion, but that is only so if "practice" is confined to the circuit between her heart and her God (and there are religions whose duties are so confined). But if practice extends to the deeds that are for her the expression and confirmation of her faith, the prohibition or criminalization of those deeds will be an abridgment of her freedom because it is a burden on her free exercise.

If the free exercise clause is strongly interpreted to include actions as well as thoughts, the clash between religious and legal imperatives is inevitable. Nor can conflict be avoided by an act of compartmentalization, by saying you can order your private life in the home or the church as you like, but when you act in the public square you must conform to the civil norms enacted by a legislature. This familiar distinction (given canonical form by John Locke in his Letter Concerning Toleration, 1689) seems neat, but just underneath its surface is the tension it claims to outflank. Just ask yourself, how will the boundaries between the private and public spheres be established? Who will draw the lines? The answer will always be "the state," and that answer puts the state in the business of determining what does and does not fall within the scope of religion. It is hard to see how that can legitimately be the state's prerogative: What enables a civil magistrate to be the arbiter of religious doctrine and the policeman of its territory?

One might try to finesse the dilemma by invoking the oft-cited biblical verse "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." But that raises the question of "What after all belongs to Caesar?" -- a question that cannot be answered by Caesar without making him the head of the Church, as he has been in some societies, but not in ours. When what Caesar requires speaks only to the maintenance of good civil order, the believer will have no trouble acquiescing; but when what Caesar requires is the commission or condoning of sin (a distinction without a difference), the believer who acquiesces is in danger of harming her immortal soul. That is how Kim Davis sees it, and no secular reason -- no reason derived from a world view in which God has been eliminated or kicked upstairs -- is going to persuade her to see otherwise.

Years ago Justice Potter Stewart famously said that the refusal to permit religious exercises in the public schools should be understood "not as the realization of state neutrality," but as "the establishment of a religion of secularism" (dissent in School District of Abington v. Schempp, 1963). What Stewart sees (but doesn't quite say) is that neutrality is secularism. A state that declares itself neutral toward religion -- will not pronounce on it one way or the other -- is a state that has taken religion off the political table and effectively neutered it while pretending to be indifferent to it. "We won't say yes or no to religion" means that we will operate independently of its perspective; it means, in effect, that we say no to it. It is in the end impossible for the secular state to be fair to religion, not only because fairness is not what religion demands -- it demand precedence -- but because fairness is a secular value whose invocation always marks the marginalization and downgrading of religious interests in favor of the interests the state has identified as primary. Just ask Kim Davis.

= = = = = = = = = =

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis-part-two_b_8135136.html

The Case for Kim Davis: Part Two

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/14/2015 8:05 pm EDT
Updated: 09/14/2015 8:59 pm EDT

The responses to my column "The Case For Kim Davis" are for the most part thoughtful and raise important issues. I say "for the most part" because I want to set aside as not in the ballpark comments like, "Religious beliefs are absurd in the first place," or, "All religion is fiction." Those who make statements like these or deride religion as a vestige of medieval ignorance (actually, the Middle Ages were enormously sophisticated) announce that they can't take the Kim Davis matter seriously -- they can't take seriously the dilemma of someone who finds her legal and contractual obligations in tension with her obligations to God. It is as if someone invited into a discussion of the Common Core curriculum were to say, "I don't believe in education." He would not be contributing to the discussion, but trashing it in advance, and the genuine participants in the conversation would be within their rights to say (as I say now to the religion-haters), 'Well, you've opted out so go sit in your corner and be quiet.'

I am not so ready to dismiss those who regard religion as a hobby (like stamp collecting or bungee jumping) or an ornament (there's all that nice music and those gorgeous vestments) that is perfectly alright if it keeps its place, but something that must give way to more serious things like the rule of law. It is not that those who think this way don't take religion seriously; rather they take seriously a truncated, diminished version of it -- a version that keeps it safely sequestered in large buildings open mainly on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays -- and become very nervous when a more robust version of religious practice comes to the fore.

A good example is the commentator who declares that, "The problem comes when religion goes off the rails by requiring its disciples to believe in things that are contrary to the democratic goals of freedom and fairness." I would rephrase this to read, "The problem comes when religion stays on the rails of the track it is commanded to ride and refuses to switch onto the track of an alternative authority and prefer a rival's values to its own." Freedom and fairness are prime values in a vision of political life that has at its center the exaltation and protection of individual rights; it is not so much the choices individuals make that are honored but their capacity to make them. A rights regime -- and that is what the liberal state is -- is largely indifferent to the content of the rights being exercised and cares only that, when exercised, they leave room for the exercise of those same rights by others.

In contrast, religion's prime value (and here I'm talking about the theistic religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) is obedience. The individual believer is not free to choose her own way and follow her own path; she must adhere to the path set out for her by a supreme, supra-human authority; she must keep to the way another has established. ("I am the way, the truth and the life.") She cannot cast off the tenets of her religion when they conflict with worldly mandates. She cannot, that is, exercise her religion intermittently, on weekends and sacred holidays, and dance to secular tunes for the rest of the time.

Yet some want Kim Davis to do this. They say that her religious freedom has not been burdened because she can still believe what she wants and worship where she wants. They say she has the right to believe what she believes (thank you very much!), but "not to act on her beliefs." They say that Judge Bunning's ruling did not outlaw or discourage her religious practice. They say that "religion is a personal matter." They say that "religious beliefs are best practiced at home."

These declarations, culled from the comments (and there are many more like them), amount to a secular pronouncement on the proper scope of religious belief and practice: The practice is proper when it is confined to thoughts or to rituals acted out in the church and the home; the practice is proper when it remains personal -- a transaction between Davis and her God -- but not when it spills over into actions performed in the public square. Restricting religious exercise in this way makes it manageable by the liberal state, which can display its liberality by quarantining practices it doesn't take seriously in safe places where they pose no threat to the state's hegemony.

But what do you do with those who, because they adhere to a religion that does not recognize the private-public distinction, decline to leave their religious convictions at home when they venture out into the world? Well, you can demonize them, as some of the respondents to my column do, or you can say, 'Well, this is not my cup of tea, but nevertheless a significant number of my fellow citizens drink from this source, and perhaps we should find a way to accommodate them without turning our republic into a theocracy.'

Note that accommodation does not mean acceptance of religious tenets or even a deep understanding of why some hold to them so fiercely. You can remain puzzled by what appears to you to be baseless zealotry; you can even be incredulous in the face of obdurate commitments to something for which there is no empirical evidence. But you ought not to doubt the sincerity of those who hold such commitments or demand that fidelity to them only take the form sanctioned by secular values. You might decide that flexibility tempered by generosity is the better path.

That may be well and good (the reply would come), as long as these "sincere" religionists do not impose their beliefs on others. This is the key complaint against Davis's stance and actions: She is forcing citizens of Kentucky who seek marriage licenses to conform to her religious convictions, and by doing so she is establishing a state religion in violation of the First Amendment. But in fact she's doing nothing of the kind. She is trying to live out her faith and she finds her efforts toward that end frustrated by the requirement that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. It is not that she wants to stop them from getting married; she just doesn't want to be associated with it.

She and her lawyers ask only that when the licenses are issued, they bear neither her name nor the name of her office. As UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh explains, Davis was not satisfied with Judge Bunning's plan to have the licenses handled by her deputies because under that arrangement the licenses and certificates "are still being issued (in her view) under her ostensible authority, even though Davis has not authorized them." In short, as Amy K. Hall observes, "her goal is not to impose her views on people trying to obtain licenses, although that was the unintended consequence while no licenses were being issued." (It might be said that whatever her goal, those who do not receive licenses are inconvenienced, but that could also be said of Davis who is inconvenienced, and more, when the state, with no intention to burden her faith, requires her to do something that in her view violates it.)

But isn't the fact that she is an elected official mean that an accommodation is not available to her and that her choice is either to do her duty or resign? This is the second most voiced complaint against Davis's position and also against my citing of cases that involve accommodations given to private persons. Again the answer to the question is "no." It is true that under Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act elected officials cannot receive religiously-based exemptions, but as Volokh points out, Kentucky, like a number of other states, has a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and these statutes do not rule out "accommodation claims by elected officials."

Of course the claim is not automatically granted and could be denied if a court determined, for example, that requiring Davis to issue licenses did not in fact substantially burden her religious exercise. That essentially is what the federal district court in Kentucky determined, reasoning that because Davis "may continue to attend church twice a week, participate in Bible Study and minister to female inmates," her religious activities have not been curtailed. But as I argued earlier, this is an impoverished view of religious exercise that reflects the liberal refusal to take religious faith seriously except as something you attest to in private where it doesn't bother anybody.

Under a more robust view in which her duties involve more than church attendance and charity work and extend to doing (or refraining from doing) work in the world, the burden on Davis could be said to be considerable. Here is Volokh making just that point: "If Davis believes that it's religiously wrong for her to issue licenses with her name on them, ordering her to do that indeed burdens her religious beliefs" and giving her a modest exemption (one that did not unduly impair the work of the clerk's office) might "indeed be required by the Kentucky RFRA." (And it won't do to argue that she's not condoning anything by affixing her name; that's for her, not an outside monitor, to decide, and she has obviously decided, in accordance with the First Amendment category of "compelled speech," that she doesn't want even the appearance of signing onto a practice she believes to be sinful.)

There are a lot of "mights" and "coulds" here, and it is by no means certain either that Davis will receive an exemption or that she should receive one. That is a question for the courts, which must draw the appropriate lines. But it is a real question and that's all I've been saying in these two columns: There is a case for Kim Davis to be made, and while that case may not prevail, it is not frivolous or absurd or outrageous or entirely without merit as some who have posted here maintain.

This brings me to a final point. Some posters castigate Davis for being self-righteous; but if there were a self-righteousness competition, Davis's critics would win it hands down.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 79.

#2. To: nolu chan (#0)

That is way to long.

the case for Kim is strong and simple.

this is the Constitution of Kentucky: www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/IB59.pdf

Go to section 233a Valid or recognized marriage -

Legal status of unmarried individuals. Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky.

End of discussion, she was doing her job and obeying the law, the judge, the cops who arrested her, the sheriff who held her in jail, the clerks issuing licenses to other than what the law allows, all deserve to be in jail.

End of case.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-15   16:48:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BobCeleste (#2)

this is the Constitution of Kentucky: www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/IB59.pdf

Go to section 233a Valid or recognized marriage -

Legal status of unmarried individuals. Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky.

End of discussion, she was doing her job and obeying the law, the judge, the cops who arrested her, the sheriff who held her in jail, the clerks issuing licenses to other than what the law allows, all deserve to be in jail.

That part of the Kentucky constitution was struck down as unconstitutional by SCOTUS in Obergefell. Your argument fails which is why attorney tried to make such argument for Kim Davis.

The Kentucky RFRA is an applicable Kentucky law, not struck down by Obergefell.

To what extent forcing one to perform any act to condone, or indirectly condone, same-sex marriage substantially burden's one's sincerely held religious beliefs may be gauged by public reaction and that Davis was willing to go to jail rather than to comply. Obviously, some find it very offensive to their religious beliefs. If it is slight enough to invoke RFRA, it is enough to require a showing that no accomodation is reasonably available. And a prima facie case invoking RFRA may invoke strict scrutiny.

KENTUCKY RFRA

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/13rs/HB279/bill.doc

UNOFFICIAL COPY AS OF 09/08/15 -- 13 REG. SESS. -- 13 RS HB 279/VO

AN ACT relating to construction of the law.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Kentucky:

SECTION 1. A NEW SECTION OF KRS CHAPTER 446 IS CREATED TO READ AS FOLLOWS:

Government shall not substantially burden a person's freedom of religion. The right to act or refuse to act in a manner motivated by a sincerely held religious belief may not be substantially burdened unless the government proves by clear and convincing evidence that it has a compelling governmental interest in infringing the specific act or refusal to act and has used the least restrictive means to further that interest. A "burden" shall include indirect burdens such as withholding benefits, assessing penalties, or an exclusion from programs or access to facilities.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   17:01:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: nolu chan (#6)

Show me where in the US Constitution, SCOTUS has the authority to overrule a change in a State Constitution ratified by the people.

They don't so my argument stands.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-16   9:29:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: BobCeleste (#20)

Show me where in the US Constitution, SCOTUS has the authority to overrule a change in a State Constitution ratified by the people.

Your contention falls to Article 6, the Supremacy Clause.

Article 6 (2):

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-16   14:03:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: nolu chan (#24)

Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-16   20:34:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: BobCeleste (#26)

Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

Though, factually, your statement is absoloutly, 100% correct... however riddle me this Bobman... why have a SC or why should they rule on anything if their "opinions" aren't gonna be upheld as CASE LAW?

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-16   21:48:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: GrandIsland (#28)

Though, factually, your statement is absoloutly, 100% correct... however riddle me this Bobman... why have a SC or why should they rule on anything if their "opinions" aren't gonna be upheld as CASE LAW?

First 'case law' is not law. Second, have you noticed that the members of the SCOTUSa re not elected, but appointed? Third, When Jackson was president, the SCOTUS ruled that the Cherokees could stay on their land, Jackson order the army to move them in defiance of the court, the army moved them and Jackson said something to the effect of "When the SC get's an army then I'll listen to them"

If you called me and asked me for my opinion on say Leviticus 10:1-5, your calling and asking and my answering do not make it absolute fact that you msut abide by, only God can do that. Likewise when the court issues a ruling or an opinion, it is up to Congress to address it, to decide to abide by it 100%, 1% or not at all.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-17   12:53:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: BobCeleste (#32)

Case Law

Legal principles enunciated and embodied in judicial decisions that are derived from the application of particular areas of law to the facts of individual cases. As opposed to statutes—legislative acts that proscribe certain conduct by demanding or prohibiting something or that declare the legality of particular acts—case law is a dynamic and constantly developing body of law. Each case contains a portion wherein the facts of the controversy are set forth as well as the holding and dicta—an explanation of how the judge arrived at a particular conclusion. In addition, a case might contain concurring and dissenting opinions of other judges.

Since the U.S. legal system has a common-law system, higher court decisions are binding on lower courts in cases with similar facts that raise similar issues. The concept of precedent, or Stare Decisis, means to follow or adhere to previously decided cases in judging the case at bar. It means that appellate case law should be considered as binding upon lower courts.

Case law from the higher courts (such as appellate and USC) are legally binding... which means it's just as binding as the originally written law.

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   13:38:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: GrandIsland (#34)

Since the U.S. legal system has a common-law system, higher court decisions are binding on lower courts

yes, but that does not alter the fat that it is an opinion or a ruling, not law. Nor does it, in any whay shape or form authorize the overruling of a vote of the people to amend that states Constitution.

Congress needs to stop thinking about how much money they can skim ans start putting their foot down with the other two branches.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-17   14:15:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: BobCeleste, GrandIsland (#36)

yes, but that does not alter the fat that it is an opinion or a ruling, not law. Nor does it, in any whay shape or form authorize the overruling of a vote of the people to amend that states Constitution.

See: http://law.justia.com/cases/

"CASE LAW"

A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void.

State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking. It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   14:28:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#39)

"CASE LAW"

A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void.

State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking.

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.

But a SCOTUS holding is still an opinion, and it can be ignored/modified by our other branches of our various level of govt, -- or by we the people.. -- Under the Art VI concept that such an opinion is NOT made "in pursuance thereof"..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   14:56:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: tpaine (#40)

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

Try reading the damn opinion before spewing your bullshit. If a doctor, in his apropriate medical judgment, determines that it is necessary for the preservation of the physical or mental health of the mother, the state can't do shit, even in the 9th month.

From the Syllabus with page references to the text.

3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term. Pp. 147-164.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician. Pp. 163, 164.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health. Pp. 163, 164.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

4. The State may define the term "physician" to mean only a physician currently licensed by the State, and may proscribe any abortion by a person who is not a physician as so defined. P. 165.

5. It is unnecessary to decide the injunctive relief issue since the Texas authorities will doubtless fully recognize the Court's ruling that the Texas criminal abortion statutes are unconstitutional. P. 166.

314 F. Supp. 1217, affirmed in part and reversed in part.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   16:39:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: nolu chan (#42)

" State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder." --tpaine

>> Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   17:22:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: tpaine (#44)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute. And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor. Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

You evidently did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:17:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: nolu chan (#49)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion ---

--- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means a State can criminally prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute.

That's your non-legal opinion. I have mine, and it makes common sense.

And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

So we agree, the State can criminalize late term abortions..

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

So you claim as a fake legal expert. IMHO, States haven't fought because it's a losing political issue.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:38:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: tpaine (#53)

[tpaine #44] Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder

Those late term abolitions will get ya every time. Etheldred had a late term abolition.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.

Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit.

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:57:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: nolu chan (#57)

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   19:10:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: tpaine (#59)

[tpaine #44] Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder

Those late term abolitions will get ya every time. Etheldred had a late term abolition.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

You find your bullshit case. You said "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder."

Was he charged with freeing his slave prematurely?

Where's your case? Why can you not identify it or link to it?

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   19:53:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: nolu chan (#61)

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:38:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#64)

To remind you, in detail in your own words, you were bullshitting about a non-existent case of a man just convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion, asserting this fiction as being relevant to Roe v. Wade.

I am well aware of Scott Peterson of Modesto. Only tpaine could assert that this particular Scott from Modesto was just convicted of anything, much less convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion.

[tpaine #40]

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

[tpaine #47]

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

[nolu chan #49

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute. And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor. Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

[tpaine #53]

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

[nolu chan #57]

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really.

[tpaine #59]

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto.

[tpaine #64

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

Let me help you out with your bullshit link which goes to the most recent main page of CBS news, 11 years distant from the actual article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/peterson-baby-at-heart-of-case/

By Lloyd Vries
CBS/AP October 12, 2004, 1:21 PM

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. (AP)

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing. That would mean Peterson most likely couldn't have killed them because police watched his every move in the weeks after Laci disappeared on Christmas Eve 2002.

[...]

Prosecutors allege Peterson killed his pregnant wife on or around Christmas Eve, then dumped her into the bay. The bodies washed up about four months later, mere miles from where Peterson claims to have been fishing alone the day his wife vanished.

Defense lawyers claim someone else abducted Laci and possibly held her captive while police homed in on Peterson, then crudely cut the fetus from her belly before framing her husband after learning of his widely publicized alibi.

[snip]

Now, let's try a more recent story which I had at the ready, not an undated one with a bullshit link.

http://www.modbee.com/news/local/article8540912.html

Modesto’s Scott Peterson killed family out of selfishness, prosecutors say in appeal response

Modesto’s Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife, Laci, and their unborn son, Conner, in a selfish bid for freedom, California state prosecutors say in a long awaited Supreme Court briefing.

By Garth Stapley
Modesto Bee
January 28, 2015

Scott Peterson’s yearning to be free from marriage and impending fatherhood prompted him to murder his pregnant wife and their unborn son, and jurors got it right when they sentenced the Modesto man to die more than 10 years ago, state prosecutors said this week in a long-awaited response to Peterson’s death penalty appeal.

“Fueled by the trifecta of selfishness, arrogance and wanderlust, Scott Peterson decided to take matters into his own hands” and killed Laci and Conner Peterson, says the document, signed by California Attorney General Kamala Harris and written by a deputy prosecutor, Donna Provenzano.

“I’m very pleased with her work product and very confident in the outcome,” said Birgit Fladager, who steered a team of prosecutors from Stanislaus County in the Peterson case before winning election as district attorney.

The 519-page document, filed Monday with the California Supreme Court, said Peterson’s parents provided him with “a life of privilege,” handing him a country club membership, jobs, elite schooling and a down payment for the young couple’s Modesto home. “Yet they could not give their son the one thing he secretly wanted most: to be free” of family burdens, Provenzano said in the brief.

Substitute teacher Laci Peterson was eight months pregnant when she went missing on Christmas Eve in 2002. Her husband said he had been fishing in a newly purchased boat in San Francisco Bay and returned to an empty house; the badly decomposed bodies of mother and fetus washed ashore nearly four months later.

Scott Peterson’s 470-page appeal, filed in July 2012, noted that he proclaimed his innocence from the start and blamed massive publicity for swaying jurors in a blockbuster trial spanning most of 2004. He was convicted late that year and arrived on death row in March 2005.

The trial judge, Alfred Delucci, who since has died, was “an experienced and respected jurist” whose “unrelenting dedication” to justice made sure Peterson received a fair trial, Provenzano said. Peterson’s celebrity defense attorney, Mark Geragos, himself approved the selection of “a fair and impartial jury,” she noted.

No juror contacted by The Modesto Bee through the years has second-guessed the verdicts of guilt and the death penalty.

“I can tell you justice was served,” juror Mike Belmessieri told The Bee Wednesday. “We made the right decision. Not a day goes by that I don’t remind myself, and I’m comfortable with it.”

[snip]

Only a complete douchebag like tpaine could maintain that the Scott Peterson case from 2004 could support the claims:

  • "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition [sic - abortion] as murder"

  • "It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders."

  • "State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder."

  • "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus."

Scott Peterson did not commit a late term abortion. The 2004 Scott Peterson conviction has no relevance to Roe v. Wade or abortion in any context.

As usual, you are proven to be just full of shit.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-18   15:58:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: nolu chan (#73)

nolu chan (#57) --- I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

To remind you, in detail in your own words, you were bullshitting about a non-existent case of a man just convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion, asserting this fiction as being relevant to Roe v. Wade.

The above are my words on that issue.

am well aware of Scott Peterson of Modesto. Only tpaine could assert that this particular Scott from Modesto was just convicted of anything, much less convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion.

I never made that abortion remark.. -- You're going insane about this issue.. Sober up.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-18   18:32:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#76)

I never made that abortion remark.. -- You're going insane about this issue.. Sober up.

You said states had prosecuted late term abortion as murder. When challenged to cite your imaginary case, you said, "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus." When challenged to identify your imaginary case, you said "the guys name was Scott something from Modesto." Finally, you identified the 11-year old case of Scott Peterson of Modesto.

You are a lying sack of shit. At #47 you said, "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition (sic) as murder." At #49, I responded, "Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion." At your #53, you lied and bullshitted, "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus."

[tpaine #47]

(In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

[nolu chan #49

Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

You responded to my #49 with your #53:

[tpaine #53]

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Or in full context:

#53. To: nolu chan (#49)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion ---

--- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means a State can criminally prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute.

That's your non-legal opinion. I have mine, and it makes common sense.

And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

So we agree, the State can criminalize late term abortions..

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

So you claim as a fake legal expert. IMHO, States haven't fought because it's a losing political issue.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:38:34 ET

At #57, I responded to your #53:

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.

Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit.

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

- - -

#59. To: nolu chan (#57)

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   19:10:53 ET

At #64, you identified the 11-year old conviction of Scott Peterson of Modesto which had nothing to do with abortion, late-term or otherwise. He killed his pregnant wife in an act of douchebaggery.

#64. To: nolu chan (#61)

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:38:54 ET

Quit your douchebaggery. You are caught lying and engaged in your usual bullshit.

You claimed, Some States have prosecuted late term abolition (sic) as murder." So, where's the case of the State that has prosecuted late term abortion as murder?

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-19   0:04:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: nolu chan (#78)

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

That was the reason I asked the tool bag if he realized the child was found OUTSIDE of the mothers body. The coroner that performed the autopsy and testified at trial stated he estimated the child at 9 months of age... and could not rule out that the child was born alive prior to death.

It wasn't a late term abortion prosecution... it was a double murder charge.

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-19   0:13:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 79.

#82. To: GrandIsland (#79)

That was the reason I asked the tool bag if he realized the child was found OUTSIDE of the mothers body. The coroner that performed the autopsy and testified at trial stated he estimated the child at 9 months of age... and could not rule out that the child was born alive prior to death.

It wasn't a late term abortion prosecution... it was a double murder charge.

And it was a double-murder conviction, first degree on the mother, and second-degree on the child.

Laci and Conner washed up a day apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laci_Peterson

On April 13, 2003, a couple walking their dog discovered the decomposing but well-preserved body of a late-term male fetus on the San Francisco Bay shore in Richmond's Point Isabel Regional Shoreline park, north of Berkeley. Although a judge sealed autopsy results, an anonymous Associated Press source revealed that 1-1/2 loops of nylon tape was found around the fetus' neck and a significant cut was on the fetus' body. One day later, the body of a recently pregnant woman, wearing cream-colored maternity pants and a maternity bra, washed to shore one mile away from where the baby's body was found. The exact cause of her death was impossible to determine as a result of decomposition; the body was decapitated, both forearms were missing, the right foot was severed, and the left leg from the knee down was missing. Tape was found around the outside of her clothing on her lower torso as well. Later reports from the medical examiner revealed that there were injuries, two cracked ribs, that happened at or near the time of death. DNA tests verified that they were the bodies of Laci and her son, Conner. Mother and fetus had not been separated by coffin birth, as had been speculated. Rather, Laci's upper torso had been emptied of internal organs and that allowed the fetus to pass through a perforation in the top of the decomposing uterus. It is thought that the 1 1/2 loops of nylon tape became tangled around the fetus neck after he came out of Laci's decomposing body.

Re the autopsy:

http://www.findlaci2003.us/prelim-day10-autopsy-conner.html

Laci Peterson’s remains were severely decomposed. Her head, hands, feet and part of her lower left leg were missing, Brian Peterson testified. He said there was no sign of cuts or bullet wounds. And testified that the water had washed away any evidence of how Laci was killed by the time her body was found.

He said he could not determine if three of her ribs were broken before or after she was killed. The coroner ruled the death a homicide, but did not offer a cause.

Almost all major internal organs were gone, leaving the torso skeletal, Brian Peterson said. The only internal organ that remained was the uterus, still attached to her empty midsection after months in the water, he said, adding that there were no indications it had been cut.

“My belief is that (the) uterus was intact at the time this body was deposited in the water,” Brian Peterson said. “I believe Conner was in that uterus.” He also said there was “no signs” of a vaginal birth. But under cross examination by Geragos, Brian Peterson said he could not rule out that Conner Peterson had been born alive.

His remains showed considerably less decomposition than hers, a phenomenon Brian Peterson said could be attributed to the baby’s body remaining protected inside the womb until a few days before it was found. There was ¼-inch of umbilical cord attached to the fetus. The end was tattered and frayed, which is consistent with tearing but not cutting, Brian Peterson said.

In his report, Brian Peterson indicated that Conner appeared to be nine months old at the time of death. A forensic anthropologist who examined the remains later and measured bones estimated the age at between 34 to 40 weeks, with most bones estimated at being 35 weeks old or higher, Brian Peterson said.

Geragos also pointed to a bag found with duct tape attached to it in “the vicinity” of the bodies. The remains were found in April just over a mile apart along the bay’s eastern shoreline.

Brian Peterson testified He testified that Conner had a gash in the chest and tape around his neck, but was in relatively good condition, leading him to conclude it had probably only recently emerged from the mother when the bodies were found a day apart in mid-April, and that the 1½ loops of plastic tape around Conner’s neck, was ocean debris.

Geragos suggested the variance in decomposition between the bodies could be attributed to the bag being placed on Conner and secured with the plastic tape.

“I think that’s possible, I certainly don’t think it’s likely,” Brian Peterson said. “It’s not my top choice.”

Based on measurements of the child's remains, Dr. Peterson originally believed it was a full-term fetus, but he later said the prolonged submersion had probably swollen the body. He said an anthropologist estimated the fetus to be 33 weeks to 38 weeks old.

Geragos pressed the doctor about a strip of plastic tape that looped loosely around the baby's neck and was knotted around one shoulder. He asked if it could be related to a bag found nearby with duct tape on it and suggested the bag could have protected the child's body from the sea.

Dr. Peterson said he believed the fetus had become entangled in flotsam or jetsam and that the tape hadn't even caused any damage to the skin.

"This baby would have had to be swimming to get this tape over the head and around the arm," Geragos said in disbelief.

"I agree it's unlikely that that baby would swim," Dr. Peterson replied.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-19 02:00:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 79.

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