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Title: The Case for Kim Davis
Source: Huffington Post
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanl ... e-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html
Published: Sep 9, 2015
Author: Stanley Fish
Post Date: 2015-09-15 15:51:22 by nolu chan
Keywords: None
Views: 10138
Comments: 84

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html

The Case for Kim Davis

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/09/2015 9:05 am EDT
Updated: 09/09/2015 2:59 pm EDT

In much of the mainstream media Kim Davis's case is regarded as cut and dried: She sought an office that requires its holder to license marriages according to the law; the law now recognizes a union between persons of the same sex as a valid marriage; when Davis refuses to issue licenses to same sex-couples because according to her religion marriage is a union between a man and a woman, she puts herself above the law she has pledged to uphold and carry out; end of story.

But it's not that simple. When federal judge David Bunning declared that people cannot be allowed "to choose what orders they follow" just because their conscience tells them to -- religious faith, he said, "is not a viable of defense" -- he was signing on to Justice Antonin Scalia's reasoning in Employment Division v. Smith (1990). Two Native Americans who had been denied employment compensation benefits because they had ingested peyote during a church ceremony claimed an exemption from the law governing controlled substances; their behavior, they argued, was protected under the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion. Scalia responded by citing Reynolds v. United States: "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land." Democratic government, Scalia added, "must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself."

Although these sentiments have the sound of common sense, they were received in 1990 as "a revolution in Free Exercise jurisprudence" (Steven Gey, Religion and the State) because they went against a then-established tradition of deferring to religiously inspired action even when it conflicted with a generally applicable law. Sherbert v. Verner (1963), for example, turns on the denial of unemployment benefits to a Seventh Day Adventist because she declined work that required her to show up on Saturdays. Lower courts upheld the denial, but the Supreme Court reversed it, holding that no one should be forced to choose between "abandoning one of the precepts of her religion" and securing a job; the burden on free exercise is just too great. (Hello, Kim Davis.)

Obviously, these two decisions (and there are many more on either side of the divide) offer different templates for determining how to think about Kim Davis: from the perspective of Smith, Judge Bunning got it right; from the perspective of Sherbert, the state should find a way to accommodate Davis's deeply held beliefs and not exact as the price for adhering to them her employment and her physical freedom. (She has now been released, but after having been jailed for six days.)

What makes things so sticky is that the conflict between these two perspectives is built into the free exercise clause itself: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The question (and it is a question that cannot be answered by just parsing the text) is, What does it mean to freely exercise one's religion? Scalia gives one answer in Smith when he draws a line between the having and expressing of religious convictions and the conduct a believer might engage in because she thinks those convictions command it. In his view, free exercise extends only to the thought and expression part; "otherwise prohibitable conduct" is not saved, he says, merely because it is "accompanied by religious convictions."

But this severe take on the matter raises the question of why there is a free exercise clause in the first place. If thinking and publishing religious thoughts is what is being protected, the free expression clause of the First Amendment takes care of that already. Why have an additional clause unless it is to protect something additional, and what could that something additional be except the actions that follow necessarily in the eyes of the believer from the beliefs she is committed to? Many who agree with Bunning's ruling say that Davis is still free to practice her religion, but that is only so if "practice" is confined to the circuit between her heart and her God (and there are religions whose duties are so confined). But if practice extends to the deeds that are for her the expression and confirmation of her faith, the prohibition or criminalization of those deeds will be an abridgment of her freedom because it is a burden on her free exercise.

If the free exercise clause is strongly interpreted to include actions as well as thoughts, the clash between religious and legal imperatives is inevitable. Nor can conflict be avoided by an act of compartmentalization, by saying you can order your private life in the home or the church as you like, but when you act in the public square you must conform to the civil norms enacted by a legislature. This familiar distinction (given canonical form by John Locke in his Letter Concerning Toleration, 1689) seems neat, but just underneath its surface is the tension it claims to outflank. Just ask yourself, how will the boundaries between the private and public spheres be established? Who will draw the lines? The answer will always be "the state," and that answer puts the state in the business of determining what does and does not fall within the scope of religion. It is hard to see how that can legitimately be the state's prerogative: What enables a civil magistrate to be the arbiter of religious doctrine and the policeman of its territory?

One might try to finesse the dilemma by invoking the oft-cited biblical verse "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." But that raises the question of "What after all belongs to Caesar?" -- a question that cannot be answered by Caesar without making him the head of the Church, as he has been in some societies, but not in ours. When what Caesar requires speaks only to the maintenance of good civil order, the believer will have no trouble acquiescing; but when what Caesar requires is the commission or condoning of sin (a distinction without a difference), the believer who acquiesces is in danger of harming her immortal soul. That is how Kim Davis sees it, and no secular reason -- no reason derived from a world view in which God has been eliminated or kicked upstairs -- is going to persuade her to see otherwise.

Years ago Justice Potter Stewart famously said that the refusal to permit religious exercises in the public schools should be understood "not as the realization of state neutrality," but as "the establishment of a religion of secularism" (dissent in School District of Abington v. Schempp, 1963). What Stewart sees (but doesn't quite say) is that neutrality is secularism. A state that declares itself neutral toward religion -- will not pronounce on it one way or the other -- is a state that has taken religion off the political table and effectively neutered it while pretending to be indifferent to it. "We won't say yes or no to religion" means that we will operate independently of its perspective; it means, in effect, that we say no to it. It is in the end impossible for the secular state to be fair to religion, not only because fairness is not what religion demands -- it demand precedence -- but because fairness is a secular value whose invocation always marks the marginalization and downgrading of religious interests in favor of the interests the state has identified as primary. Just ask Kim Davis.

= = = = = = = = = =

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis-part-two_b_8135136.html

The Case for Kim Davis: Part Two

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/14/2015 8:05 pm EDT
Updated: 09/14/2015 8:59 pm EDT

The responses to my column "The Case For Kim Davis" are for the most part thoughtful and raise important issues. I say "for the most part" because I want to set aside as not in the ballpark comments like, "Religious beliefs are absurd in the first place," or, "All religion is fiction." Those who make statements like these or deride religion as a vestige of medieval ignorance (actually, the Middle Ages were enormously sophisticated) announce that they can't take the Kim Davis matter seriously -- they can't take seriously the dilemma of someone who finds her legal and contractual obligations in tension with her obligations to God. It is as if someone invited into a discussion of the Common Core curriculum were to say, "I don't believe in education." He would not be contributing to the discussion, but trashing it in advance, and the genuine participants in the conversation would be within their rights to say (as I say now to the religion-haters), 'Well, you've opted out so go sit in your corner and be quiet.'

I am not so ready to dismiss those who regard religion as a hobby (like stamp collecting or bungee jumping) or an ornament (there's all that nice music and those gorgeous vestments) that is perfectly alright if it keeps its place, but something that must give way to more serious things like the rule of law. It is not that those who think this way don't take religion seriously; rather they take seriously a truncated, diminished version of it -- a version that keeps it safely sequestered in large buildings open mainly on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays -- and become very nervous when a more robust version of religious practice comes to the fore.

A good example is the commentator who declares that, "The problem comes when religion goes off the rails by requiring its disciples to believe in things that are contrary to the democratic goals of freedom and fairness." I would rephrase this to read, "The problem comes when religion stays on the rails of the track it is commanded to ride and refuses to switch onto the track of an alternative authority and prefer a rival's values to its own." Freedom and fairness are prime values in a vision of political life that has at its center the exaltation and protection of individual rights; it is not so much the choices individuals make that are honored but their capacity to make them. A rights regime -- and that is what the liberal state is -- is largely indifferent to the content of the rights being exercised and cares only that, when exercised, they leave room for the exercise of those same rights by others.

In contrast, religion's prime value (and here I'm talking about the theistic religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) is obedience. The individual believer is not free to choose her own way and follow her own path; she must adhere to the path set out for her by a supreme, supra-human authority; she must keep to the way another has established. ("I am the way, the truth and the life.") She cannot cast off the tenets of her religion when they conflict with worldly mandates. She cannot, that is, exercise her religion intermittently, on weekends and sacred holidays, and dance to secular tunes for the rest of the time.

Yet some want Kim Davis to do this. They say that her religious freedom has not been burdened because she can still believe what she wants and worship where she wants. They say she has the right to believe what she believes (thank you very much!), but "not to act on her beliefs." They say that Judge Bunning's ruling did not outlaw or discourage her religious practice. They say that "religion is a personal matter." They say that "religious beliefs are best practiced at home."

These declarations, culled from the comments (and there are many more like them), amount to a secular pronouncement on the proper scope of religious belief and practice: The practice is proper when it is confined to thoughts or to rituals acted out in the church and the home; the practice is proper when it remains personal -- a transaction between Davis and her God -- but not when it spills over into actions performed in the public square. Restricting religious exercise in this way makes it manageable by the liberal state, which can display its liberality by quarantining practices it doesn't take seriously in safe places where they pose no threat to the state's hegemony.

But what do you do with those who, because they adhere to a religion that does not recognize the private-public distinction, decline to leave their religious convictions at home when they venture out into the world? Well, you can demonize them, as some of the respondents to my column do, or you can say, 'Well, this is not my cup of tea, but nevertheless a significant number of my fellow citizens drink from this source, and perhaps we should find a way to accommodate them without turning our republic into a theocracy.'

Note that accommodation does not mean acceptance of religious tenets or even a deep understanding of why some hold to them so fiercely. You can remain puzzled by what appears to you to be baseless zealotry; you can even be incredulous in the face of obdurate commitments to something for which there is no empirical evidence. But you ought not to doubt the sincerity of those who hold such commitments or demand that fidelity to them only take the form sanctioned by secular values. You might decide that flexibility tempered by generosity is the better path.

That may be well and good (the reply would come), as long as these "sincere" religionists do not impose their beliefs on others. This is the key complaint against Davis's stance and actions: She is forcing citizens of Kentucky who seek marriage licenses to conform to her religious convictions, and by doing so she is establishing a state religion in violation of the First Amendment. But in fact she's doing nothing of the kind. She is trying to live out her faith and she finds her efforts toward that end frustrated by the requirement that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. It is not that she wants to stop them from getting married; she just doesn't want to be associated with it.

She and her lawyers ask only that when the licenses are issued, they bear neither her name nor the name of her office. As UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh explains, Davis was not satisfied with Judge Bunning's plan to have the licenses handled by her deputies because under that arrangement the licenses and certificates "are still being issued (in her view) under her ostensible authority, even though Davis has not authorized them." In short, as Amy K. Hall observes, "her goal is not to impose her views on people trying to obtain licenses, although that was the unintended consequence while no licenses were being issued." (It might be said that whatever her goal, those who do not receive licenses are inconvenienced, but that could also be said of Davis who is inconvenienced, and more, when the state, with no intention to burden her faith, requires her to do something that in her view violates it.)

But isn't the fact that she is an elected official mean that an accommodation is not available to her and that her choice is either to do her duty or resign? This is the second most voiced complaint against Davis's position and also against my citing of cases that involve accommodations given to private persons. Again the answer to the question is "no." It is true that under Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act elected officials cannot receive religiously-based exemptions, but as Volokh points out, Kentucky, like a number of other states, has a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and these statutes do not rule out "accommodation claims by elected officials."

Of course the claim is not automatically granted and could be denied if a court determined, for example, that requiring Davis to issue licenses did not in fact substantially burden her religious exercise. That essentially is what the federal district court in Kentucky determined, reasoning that because Davis "may continue to attend church twice a week, participate in Bible Study and minister to female inmates," her religious activities have not been curtailed. But as I argued earlier, this is an impoverished view of religious exercise that reflects the liberal refusal to take religious faith seriously except as something you attest to in private where it doesn't bother anybody.

Under a more robust view in which her duties involve more than church attendance and charity work and extend to doing (or refraining from doing) work in the world, the burden on Davis could be said to be considerable. Here is Volokh making just that point: "If Davis believes that it's religiously wrong for her to issue licenses with her name on them, ordering her to do that indeed burdens her religious beliefs" and giving her a modest exemption (one that did not unduly impair the work of the clerk's office) might "indeed be required by the Kentucky RFRA." (And it won't do to argue that she's not condoning anything by affixing her name; that's for her, not an outside monitor, to decide, and she has obviously decided, in accordance with the First Amendment category of "compelled speech," that she doesn't want even the appearance of signing onto a practice she believes to be sinful.)

There are a lot of "mights" and "coulds" here, and it is by no means certain either that Davis will receive an exemption or that she should receive one. That is a question for the courts, which must draw the appropriate lines. But it is a real question and that's all I've been saying in these two columns: There is a case for Kim Davis to be made, and while that case may not prevail, it is not frivolous or absurd or outrageous or entirely without merit as some who have posted here maintain.

This brings me to a final point. Some posters castigate Davis for being self-righteous; but if there were a self-righteousness competition, Davis's critics would win it hands down.

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#44. To: nolu chan (#42)

" State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder." --tpaine

>> Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   17:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: GrandIsland, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#43)

To: nolu chan (#41)

That's bullshit and you know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so. A SCOTUS holding on the Constitution can only be changed by an amendment to the Constitution.

Bingo... correctly stated. Don't expect tpaine or Deckards little mini-me, Bob, to understand.

GrandIsland

That's bullshit and you, and nolu, know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so.

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   17:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#45)

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

You seem a little short on examples, or any respectable legal authority who supports your insanity.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   17:59:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: nolu chan (#46)

Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion.

You seem a little short on examples, or any respectable legal authority who supports your insanity.

The Dred Scott opinion was largely ignored as did Jackson on Indians,- ,Lincoln on his war powers, -- the people on booze prohibition, etc..

You seem a little short on common sense, -- Why is that?

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: nolu chan (#46)

tpaine can site an example... like drugs. In tpaines anarchic dream world, drugs should be legal and therefore any SCOTUS decision regarding the constitutionality of drug laws is just an opinion and tpaine doesn't have to follow their opinion. Problem is, he believes his bullshit but won't take a pound of cocaine down to his local PD for pictures and autographs with the guys.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   18:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: tpaine (#44)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute. And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor. Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

You evidently did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: tpaine (#47)

The Dred Scott opinion was largely ignored

You obviously are clueless about the Dred Scott case as well. It is amazing what a vivid imagination you have.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:23:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: GrandIsland, misterwhite, nolu chan Y'ALL (#48)

To: nolu chan (#46)

tpaine can site an example... like drugs. In tpaines anarchic dream world, drugs should be legal and therefore any SCOTUS decision regarding the constitutionality of drug laws is just an opinion and tpaine doesn't have to follow their opinion. Problem is, he believes his bullshit but won't take a pound of cocaine down to his local PD for pictures and autographs with the guys. GrandIsland posted

You And nolu live in the archaic dream world of the liberal prohibitionists, who, 100 years ago, gained power by opining that the govt could ban damn near anything, - - drugs, booze, guns, etc.

Why would a supposed conservative be a prohibitionist? -- You guys are closet liberal/authoritarians. -- Admit it..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:24:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: GrandIsland (#48)

Problem is, he believes his bullshit but won't take a pound of cocaine down to his local PD for pictures and autographs with the guys.

Well, it is not like he believes his bullshit that much. But if he did that, he would get his picture taken.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: nolu chan (#49)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion ---

--- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means a State can criminally prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute.

That's your non-legal opinion. I have mine, and it makes common sense.

And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

So we agree, the State can criminalize late term abortions..

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

So you claim as a fake legal expert. IMHO, States haven't fought because it's a losing political issue.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:38:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: tpaine, GrandIsland, misterwhite (#51)

You And nolu live in the archaic dream world of the liberal prohibitionists, who, 100 years ago, gained power by opining that the govt could ban damn near anything, - - drugs, booze, guns, etc.

No, dumbshit. I live in a world where the federal or state government actually did ban drugs. The prisons are full of people who were just too dumb to tell the judge that banning drugs is unconstitutional.

And the people banned booze nationwide with an amendment to the Constitution. And even today, governments ban the sale of booze in dry counties. Walk down the street drinking your beer in a dry county and tell the cop that it is your right to do so under your imaginary law.

I am sorry to hear that you gave up your right to own a gun because you think the government banned them.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: nolu chan (#52)

But if he did that, he would get his picture taken.

He'd rule that unconstitutional too. Tpaine is the first, last and only word on what's legal, lawful or constitutional. Through him, we need no law makers, police, judges, juries or Supreme Court decisions. He's the most important person he knows.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   18:42:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: nolu chan (#52)

Problem is, he believes his bullshit but won't take a pound of cocaine down to his local PD for pictures and autographs with the guys. GrandIsland posted

You And nolu live in the archaic dream world of the liberal prohibitionists, who, 100 years ago, gained power by opining that the govt could ban damn near anything, - - drugs, booze, guns, etc.

Why would a supposed conservative be a prohibitionist? -- You guys are closet liberal/authoritarians. -- Admit it.

Well, it is not like he believes his bullshit that much. But if he did that, he would get his picture taken. --- nolu chan

Do you two clowns really think you're making valid counterpoints about the issue?

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:45:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: tpaine (#53)

[tpaine #44] Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder

Those late term abolitions will get ya every time. Etheldred had a late term abolition.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.

Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit.

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   18:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#54)

You And nolu live in the archaic dream world of the liberal prohibitionists, who, 100 years ago, gained power by opining that the govt could ban damn near anything, - - drugs, booze, guns, etc.

Why would a supposed conservative be a prohibitionist? -- You guys are closet liberal/authoritarians. -- Admit it..

No, dumbshit. I live in a world where the federal or state government actually did ban drugs.

That's the issue. They did it unconstitutionally, and dumbshits like you agreed.

The prisons are full of people who were just too dumb to tell the judge that banning drugs is unconstitutional.

The Courts you love so much won't let them argue the constitutional issue. Why? Because dumbshits like you support authoritarian courts.

And the people banned booze nationwide with an amendment to the Constitution. And even today, governments ban the sale of booze in dry counties. Walk down the street drinking your beer in a dry county and tell the cop that it is your right to do so under your imaginary law.

Why do you support such idiotic 'laws'?

I am sorry to hear that you gave up your right to own a gun because you think the government banned them.

I'd bet you're not. Can a dumbshit like you or your buddies explain your support of gun bans?

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:58:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: nolu chan (#57)

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   19:10:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: tpaine (#59)

You're such a whizz, you find it,

Why should someone else "find" your yella claims of bullshit?

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   19:30:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: tpaine (#59)

[tpaine #44] Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder

Those late term abolitions will get ya every time. Etheldred had a late term abolition.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

You find your bullshit case. You said "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder."

Was he charged with freeing his slave prematurely?

Where's your case? Why can you not identify it or link to it?

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   19:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: GrandIsland (#60)

Why should someone else "find" your yella claims of bullshit?

I assure you that it is easier to find the California Penal Code than tapine's imaginary bullshit.

Some dude named Scott from Modesto was convicted of murdering a fetus via late term abortion under California Penal Code uh, uh, uh, it must be in some secret codicil. Next he will claim that Scott from Modesto performed a late term abortion that was neither solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-187.html

California Penal Code § 187

(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:

(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code.

(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.

(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.

(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   20:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: nolu chan (#62)

I assure you that it is easier to find the California Penal Code than tapine's imaginary bullshit.

I don't doubt it.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   21:35:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: nolu chan (#61)

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:38:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: GrandIsland (#63)

Why should someone else "find" your yella claims of bullshit? -- nolu chan

I don't doubt it. --- grandisland

'Yella' claims? Bullshit?

You clowns are getting overwrought . You're on the losing end of the discussion, and you can't handle it.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: tpaine (#65)

You do know that when they found mommy Peterson... they found baby Peterson OUTSIDE HER BODY. You did know that, right?

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   21:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: nolu chan (#29)

BC ---- Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

Though, factually, your statement is absoloutly, 100% correct... however riddle me this Bobman... why have a SC or why should they rule on anything if their "opinions" aren't gonna be upheld as CASE LAW? -- GrandIsland

SCOTUS made no law, it (allegedly) interpreted the Constitution and found a right to marriage contained therein, in a manner comparable to Roe v. Wade. You may make believe it does not matter, but try passing a state law criminalizing abortion or same-sex marriage and you know full well you will discover the truth is not contained in your silly imagination. ---- nolu chan

You guys should go back to playing your silly game with Bob. -- It's been downhill ever since, although dumbasses like you two can't understand why..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:53:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: GrandIsland (#66)

You do know that when they found mommy Peterson... they found baby Peterson OUTSIDE HER BODY. You did know that, right?

You do know I just posted the link to that fact don't you? So? What's your point?

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:55:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: nolu chan (#35)

Then the judge should have said that instead of what he did say.

They enjoy the "perks" of black robed status (a much esteemed position within the tiered government/social structure in the USA) while officially stating double-speak; nothing more to the political phenomena occuring in the USA than total crap, correct?

buckeroo  posted on  2015-09-17   22:06:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: tpaine (#38)

Thank you.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-18   9:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: nolu chan (#39)

"CASE LAW"

A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void.

State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking. It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.


Just because SCOTUS says it doesn't make it right or legal.

Show me where in the Constitution of The United States, SCOTUS get's that authority.

By the way, you have mail. The question is private I will not use it it is for my information on this subject.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-18   9:03:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: BobCeleste (#71)

To: tpaine (#38)

Thank you. --- BobCeleste

#71. To: nolu chan (#39) --- "CASE LAW" A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void. ---- State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking. It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.

Just because SCOTUS says it doesn't make it right or legal.

Show me where in the Constitution of The United States, SCOTUS get's that authority. ---- Bob Celeste

You're more than welcome Bob...

It's been my pleasure since 1998 or so to help debunk these liberal/authoritarian clowns that infest the internet with their anti-constitutional 'opinions'..

Conservative Americans they ain't...

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-18   11:37:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#64)

To remind you, in detail in your own words, you were bullshitting about a non-existent case of a man just convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion, asserting this fiction as being relevant to Roe v. Wade.

I am well aware of Scott Peterson of Modesto. Only tpaine could assert that this particular Scott from Modesto was just convicted of anything, much less convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion.

[tpaine #40]

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

[tpaine #47]

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

[nolu chan #49

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute. And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor. Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

[tpaine #53]

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

[nolu chan #57]

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really.

[tpaine #59]

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto.

[tpaine #64

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

Let me help you out with your bullshit link which goes to the most recent main page of CBS news, 11 years distant from the actual article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/peterson-baby-at-heart-of-case/

By Lloyd Vries
CBS/AP October 12, 2004, 1:21 PM

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. (AP)

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing. That would mean Peterson most likely couldn't have killed them because police watched his every move in the weeks after Laci disappeared on Christmas Eve 2002.

[...]

Prosecutors allege Peterson killed his pregnant wife on or around Christmas Eve, then dumped her into the bay. The bodies washed up about four months later, mere miles from where Peterson claims to have been fishing alone the day his wife vanished.

Defense lawyers claim someone else abducted Laci and possibly held her captive while police homed in on Peterson, then crudely cut the fetus from her belly before framing her husband after learning of his widely publicized alibi.

[snip]

Now, let's try a more recent story which I had at the ready, not an undated one with a bullshit link.

http://www.modbee.com/news/local/article8540912.html

Modesto’s Scott Peterson killed family out of selfishness, prosecutors say in appeal response

Modesto’s Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife, Laci, and their unborn son, Conner, in a selfish bid for freedom, California state prosecutors say in a long awaited Supreme Court briefing.

By Garth Stapley
Modesto Bee
January 28, 2015

Scott Peterson’s yearning to be free from marriage and impending fatherhood prompted him to murder his pregnant wife and their unborn son, and jurors got it right when they sentenced the Modesto man to die more than 10 years ago, state prosecutors said this week in a long-awaited response to Peterson’s death penalty appeal.

“Fueled by the trifecta of selfishness, arrogance and wanderlust, Scott Peterson decided to take matters into his own hands” and killed Laci and Conner Peterson, says the document, signed by California Attorney General Kamala Harris and written by a deputy prosecutor, Donna Provenzano.

“I’m very pleased with her work product and very confident in the outcome,” said Birgit Fladager, who steered a team of prosecutors from Stanislaus County in the Peterson case before winning election as district attorney.

The 519-page document, filed Monday with the California Supreme Court, said Peterson’s parents provided him with “a life of privilege,” handing him a country club membership, jobs, elite schooling and a down payment for the young couple’s Modesto home. “Yet they could not give their son the one thing he secretly wanted most: to be free” of family burdens, Provenzano said in the brief.

Substitute teacher Laci Peterson was eight months pregnant when she went missing on Christmas Eve in 2002. Her husband said he had been fishing in a newly purchased boat in San Francisco Bay and returned to an empty house; the badly decomposed bodies of mother and fetus washed ashore nearly four months later.

Scott Peterson’s 470-page appeal, filed in July 2012, noted that he proclaimed his innocence from the start and blamed massive publicity for swaying jurors in a blockbuster trial spanning most of 2004. He was convicted late that year and arrived on death row in March 2005.

The trial judge, Alfred Delucci, who since has died, was “an experienced and respected jurist” whose “unrelenting dedication” to justice made sure Peterson received a fair trial, Provenzano said. Peterson’s celebrity defense attorney, Mark Geragos, himself approved the selection of “a fair and impartial jury,” she noted.

No juror contacted by The Modesto Bee through the years has second-guessed the verdicts of guilt and the death penalty.

“I can tell you justice was served,” juror Mike Belmessieri told The Bee Wednesday. “We made the right decision. Not a day goes by that I don’t remind myself, and I’m comfortable with it.”

[snip]

Only a complete douchebag like tpaine could maintain that the Scott Peterson case from 2004 could support the claims:

  • "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition [sic - abortion] as murder"

  • "It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders."

  • "State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder."

  • "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus."

Scott Peterson did not commit a late term abortion. The 2004 Scott Peterson conviction has no relevance to Roe v. Wade or abortion in any context.

As usual, you are proven to be just full of shit.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-18   15:58:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: BobCeleste (#71)

Show me where in the Constitution of The United States, SCOTUS get's that authority.

The Marbury v. Madison interpretation of the Constitution has been the Law of the Land for over two centuries. We are free to disagree with it, as we are free to disagree with Roe v. Wade, but disagreeing with it changes nothing.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-18   16:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#68)

You do know I just posted the link to that fact don't you?

Actually, you posted a link to the current homepage of CBS News, not to the 2004 article. I posted the right link to the October 12, 2004 article. You're welcome.

You do know that Scott Peterson was not just convicted, nor did his case have anything to do with abortion.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-18   16:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: nolu chan (#73)

nolu chan (#57) --- I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

To remind you, in detail in your own words, you were bullshitting about a non-existent case of a man just convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion, asserting this fiction as being relevant to Roe v. Wade.

The above are my words on that issue.

am well aware of Scott Peterson of Modesto. Only tpaine could assert that this particular Scott from Modesto was just convicted of anything, much less convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion.

I never made that abortion remark.. -- You're going insane about this issue.. Sober up.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-18   18:32:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: nolu chan (#74)

BobCeleste (#71) -- Show me where in the Constitution of The United States, SCOTUS get's that authority.

The Marbury v. Madison interpretation of the Constitution has been the Law of the Land for over two centuries. We are free to disagree with it, as we are free to disagree with Roe v. Wade, but disagreeing with it changes nothing. --- nolu chan

Marbury is an opinion of the SCOTUS, not the law of the land. -- And in any case, Marbury also conceded that the SCOTUS was bound to honor the words of the Constitution, -- which gives them no authority to issue 'laws of the land'..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-18   18:39:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#76)

I never made that abortion remark.. -- You're going insane about this issue.. Sober up.

You said states had prosecuted late term abortion as murder. When challenged to cite your imaginary case, you said, "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus." When challenged to identify your imaginary case, you said "the guys name was Scott something from Modesto." Finally, you identified the 11-year old case of Scott Peterson of Modesto.

You are a lying sack of shit. At #47 you said, "Some States have prosecuted late term abolition (sic) as murder." At #49, I responded, "Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion." At your #53, you lied and bullshitted, "A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus."

[tpaine #47]

(In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

[nolu chan #49

Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

You responded to my #49 with your #53:

[tpaine #53]

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Or in full context:

#53. To: nolu chan (#49)

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion ---

--- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means a State can criminally prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

No, you jackass, proscribe does not mean prosecute.

That's your non-legal opinion. I have mine, and it makes common sense.

And the state has the lawful ability to proscribe any late term abortion "except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

So we agree, the State can criminalize late term abortions..

Even a nitwit like you can read that and understand it is like getting a note from your doctor. All state laws trying to work around that provision have been struck down.

So you claim as a fake legal expert. IMHO, States haven't fought because it's a losing political issue.

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

Your the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:38:34 ET

At #57, I responded to your #53:

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.

Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit.

Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

- - -

#59. To: nolu chan (#57)

I can't remember any mother being executed since Roe for obtaining a late term abortion from a doctor.

A man was just convicted in CA, for murdering a late term fetus.

Apparently, you can only imagine such a case. Maybe you can cite your bullshit case of a murder prosecution for performing a late-term abortion.

It was the killing of a late term fetus. Clowns like you sometimes insist on calling such incidents abortions. I call them murders.

You're the one imagining your legal expertise. Keep up the 'good' work.

I see that you are unable to cite any such case where anyone was prosecuted for late term abortion as murder.,--- Thank you for proving that you are simply full of shit. --- Some dude in California was just convicted for murdering a late term fetus. Really. And you can find no trace of this amazing case on the internet. Just some dude in California murdered a fetus.

You're such a whizz, you find it, the guys name was Scott something, from Modesto. And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   19:10:53 ET

At #64, you identified the 11-year old conviction of Scott Peterson of Modesto which had nothing to do with abortion, late-term or otherwise. He killed his pregnant wife in an act of douchebaggery.

#64. To: nolu chan (#61)

Some dude named Scott from Modesto murdered a fetus. Only in your imagination. You go hunting for that imaginary bullshit.

www.cbsnews.com

Peterson Baby At Heart Of Case

Scott Peterson, left, and his attorney Mark Geragos listen to the judge during his trial for the murder of his wife Laci Wednesday, July 9, 2003, in Stanislaus Superior Court in Modesto, Calif. AP Scott Peterson's fate appears to have been sealed when the bodies of his pregnant wife and fetus washed up separately not far from where he says he was on a solo fishing trip in San Francisco Bay.

That alibi has been the most damning evidence against him in his murder trial.

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   21:38:54 ET

Quit your douchebaggery. You are caught lying and engaged in your usual bullshit.

You claimed, Some States have prosecuted late term abolition (sic) as murder." So, where's the case of the State that has prosecuted late term abortion as murder?

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-19   0:04:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: nolu chan (#78)

Some legal experts say the defense could still win by proving one single fact: that the fetus was born alive long after Laci was reported missing.

That was the reason I asked the tool bag if he realized the child was found OUTSIDE of the mothers body. The coroner that performed the autopsy and testified at trial stated he estimated the child at 9 months of age... and could not rule out that the child was born alive prior to death.

It wasn't a late term abortion prosecution... it was a double murder charge.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-19   0:13:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: nolu chan, tpaine, GrandIsland (#78)

You might what to check this one out.

“This morning, I dismissed that malice murder warrant after thorough legal research by myself and my staff led to the conclusion that Georgia law presently does not permit prosecution of Ms. Jones for any alleged acts relating to the end of her pregnancy,” Edwards said. “Although third parties could be criminally prosecuted for their actions relating to an illegal abortion, as the law currently stands in Georgia, criminal prosecution of a pregnant woman for her own actions against her unborn child does not seem permitted.”

Since I haven't followed your exchange I'm not sure that this is on point.

This one may not be on point either. "Doctor Kermit Gosnell found guilty of murdering infants in late- term abortions

However, this one seems to be quite on point. Doc Charged for Late-Term Abortion

"Doc Charged for Late-Term Abortion

In a case drawing attention from both sides of the abortion debate, a doctor faces possible jail time for performing a third-trimester abortion on a healthy woman.

Under a state law that predates the U.S. Supreme Court's legalization of abortion, Michigan prosecutors have charged Dr. Jose Higuera with felonious abortion.

Higuera is the first doctor in Michigan, and may be the first in the country, to be criminally prosecuted for abortion since the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark 1973 decision in Roe vs. Wade.

The 61-year-old gynecologist says the 1994 abortion was protected by doctor- patient privacy and that Michigan's statute is unconstitutional. No trial date has been set.

Michigan and 39 other states prohibit late-term abortions except to preserve the health or life of the mother, a decision usually left to the doctor.

No Clear Reason?

Although Michigan law technically prohibits abortion, the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling only allows bans on abortions during the third trimester. Michigan's highest court subsequently banned abortion after "viability," but the wording of the state law outlawing abortion never changed.

"Viability" is the point when the fetus can be expected to survive outside the womb. The meaning of viability has changed over time, as technology allows premature babies to survive at younger ages. Viability also depends on the pregnancy.

Today, the earliest point of viability is considered at 24.5 weeks. The state claims the fetus aborted by Higuera was 28 weeks.

Higuera's crime, according to state prosecutor Mark Blumer, is that he did not have a clear medical or health reason to perform the late abortion.

"Had the mother's health been jeopardized by the pregnancy, there would not be a criminal prosecution. There's no doubt about that," Blumer said.

"What we've got is the classic gray area. A woman went in to the doctor's office and wanted an abortion for no good reason. And we have a doctor who was willing to give it. That's why this case is so different."

State Court Reinstates Charges

Doctors in Arizona and New York have been convicted on charges related to botched late-term abortions — but not for the procedure itself. If convicted, Higuera faces up to four years in prison.

In the case, the woman who underwent the procedure testified she wanted to end her pregnancy because she was no longer married to the father and had other children.

Two lower-court rulings had previously struck down the charges against Higuera, claiming Michigan's criminal abortion statute to be unconstitutional.

But in a 2-1 decision in February, the state Court of Appeals reinstated the charges, ruling Michigan's criminal abortion statute is constitutional as long as U.S. Supreme Court decisions are taken into account.

Higuera's attorney said he was saddened by the ruling.

"Our argument was the Michigan abortion statute, because it doesn't have any guidance and doesn't recognize Roe vs. Wade, is unconstitutional," Max Hoffman said. "It states all abortions are crimes."

Health Clause Is Key

Under the appeals court ruling, the state will have to prove Higuera knew he was performing a third-trimester abortion and that the mother didn't need it for a health or medical reason, Hoffman said.

It is rare to see a case that tests abortion after viability because of the law's health requirement, said Pam Sherstad, spokeswoman for Right to Life of Michigan.

"Women can have an abortion up to nine months pregnancy with the health exception," she said, adding that's why anti-abortion activists lobby to remove the health requirement from laws.

But abortion rights supporters say the health clause is key because late-term abortions almost always happen for extreme medical reasons, such as to save the mother's life or because a fetus has a fatal abnormality.

Only a handful of doctors will provide the procedure, "which is why what happened in Michigan is very much an anomaly," said Vicki Saporta, executive director of the National Abortion Federation.

Doctor’s License Suspended

In 1997, there were 9,985 abortions nationwide at 21 weeks or later into the pregnancy — from midway through the second trimester on — accounting for 1.4 percent of all abortions that year, according to the latest data available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency doesn't compile data on third-trimester abortions.

Higuera also is accused by the state of altering medical records to show the abortion in question was done on a 24-week-old fetus, instead of 28 weeks. Felony alteration carries up to a four-year sentence upon conviction.

Early in 1999, the state suspended Higuera's medical license, finding he was "negligent, incompetent and lacked good moral character," for reusing syringes and IV bags and for altering a medical record.

Blumer said the case against Higuera is not meant as an anti-abortion stance by Michigan or its attorney general.

"We're not declaring open season on abortion clinics. We're not out looking for more abortion cases," Blumer said. "This case should be judged on its own set of facts."

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-09-19   0:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: SOSO, tpaine, GrandIsland (#80)

“This morning, I dismissed that malice murder warrant after thorough legal research by myself and my staff led to the conclusion that Georgia law presently does not permit prosecution of Ms. Jones for any alleged acts relating to the end of her pregnancy,” Edwards said. “Although third parties could be criminally prosecuted for their actions relating to an illegal abortion, as the law currently stands in Georgia, criminal prosecution of a pregnant woman for her own actions against her unborn child does not seem permitted.”

Since I haven't followed your exchange I'm not sure that this is on point.

I was aware of the Georgia case.

From Roe v. Wade syllabus:

3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term. Pp. 147-164.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician. Pp. 163, 164.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health. Pp. 163, 164.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

The "health exception" lets a doctor make a medical determination that the abortion is necessary for the preservation of the mother's physical or mental health. It is difficult to challenge his medical opinion as his interaction with the patient is privileged. A doctor at an abortion mill can make the determination, just as doctor feelgood decides feelgood prescription drugs are necessary.

The California penal code on murder just about gives abortions a blanket exemption:

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-187.html

California Penal Code § 187

(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:

(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code.

(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.

(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.

(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

There appears to be no way to murder a fetus by abortion in California if the mother of the fetus consented to the abortion.

Other states are not that liberal, but the "health exemption" applies to the last trimester.

Kermit Gosnell delivered live babies that he killed. Once the little bugger gets out alive, it is no longer abortion but homicide.

The Higuera case is over 20 years old and exhibits the difficulties of prosecution. The charge relates to felonious abortion, not murder or homicide. It charges that the procedure, as performed, was proscribed by state law.

The 61-year-old gynecologist says the 1994 abortion was protected by doctor-patient privacy and that Michigan's statute is unconstitutional. No trial date has been set.

[...]

Health Clause Is Key

Under the appeals court ruling, the state will have to prove Higuera knew he was performing a third-trimester abortion and that the mother didn't need it for a health or medical reason, Hoffman said.

It is rare to see a case that tests abortion after viability because of the law's health requirement, said Pam Sherstad, spokeswoman for Right to Life of Michigan.

"Women can have an abortion up to nine months pregnancy with the health exception," she said, adding that's why anti-abortion activists lobby to remove the health requirement from laws.

It is easy enough to say that there was no valid claim of a health exemption, but doctor-patient privilege makes it a bit difficult to prove. How do they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she did not have depression or suicidal thoughts?

In the case, the woman who underwent the procedure testified she wanted to end her pregnancy because she was no longer married to the father and had other children.

She was knocked up, no longer married to the father, and did not want the baby. She may have had depression or mental health issues, even were she an Olympic athlete in her prime.

I don't know what they can present now that was not available in 2001 or even earlier. If they can prove there was no physical or mental health reason, they can make the case if state law provides for a case for an unlawful abortion and put him away for four years.

They have been trying to make a case against Higuera for about 15 years.

http://www.rtl.org/prolife_issues/LifeNotes/AddressingPBAs.html

This is from Right to Life Michigan, not a pro-abortion group:

A February 1, 2001, Detroit Free Press article reported that abortionist Dr. Jose Higuera might be criminally prosecuted in Michigan for performing an abortion after the 28th week of pregnancy. The prosecution of Dr. Higuera stemmed from an abortion performed in 1996 with no "health" or "life" reason for the mother. The woman, whose identity was not disclosed in the Free Press article, stated she did not know she was so far along in her pregnancy.

While many people do not realize that an abortion can be legally performed throughout all nine months of pregnancy, the truth is abortions can be performed for any "health" reason at any time.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-19   1:35:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: GrandIsland (#79)

That was the reason I asked the tool bag if he realized the child was found OUTSIDE of the mothers body. The coroner that performed the autopsy and testified at trial stated he estimated the child at 9 months of age... and could not rule out that the child was born alive prior to death.

It wasn't a late term abortion prosecution... it was a double murder charge.

And it was a double-murder conviction, first degree on the mother, and second-degree on the child.

Laci and Conner washed up a day apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laci_Peterson

On April 13, 2003, a couple walking their dog discovered the decomposing but well-preserved body of a late-term male fetus on the San Francisco Bay shore in Richmond's Point Isabel Regional Shoreline park, north of Berkeley. Although a judge sealed autopsy results, an anonymous Associated Press source revealed that 1-1/2 loops of nylon tape was found around the fetus' neck and a significant cut was on the fetus' body. One day later, the body of a recently pregnant woman, wearing cream-colored maternity pants and a maternity bra, washed to shore one mile away from where the baby's body was found. The exact cause of her death was impossible to determine as a result of decomposition; the body was decapitated, both forearms were missing, the right foot was severed, and the left leg from the knee down was missing. Tape was found around the outside of her clothing on her lower torso as well. Later reports from the medical examiner revealed that there were injuries, two cracked ribs, that happened at or near the time of death. DNA tests verified that they were the bodies of Laci and her son, Conner. Mother and fetus had not been separated by coffin birth, as had been speculated. Rather, Laci's upper torso had been emptied of internal organs and that allowed the fetus to pass through a perforation in the top of the decomposing uterus. It is thought that the 1 1/2 loops of nylon tape became tangled around the fetus neck after he came out of Laci's decomposing body.

Re the autopsy:

http://www.findlaci2003.us/prelim-day10-autopsy-conner.html

Laci Peterson’s remains were severely decomposed. Her head, hands, feet and part of her lower left leg were missing, Brian Peterson testified. He said there was no sign of cuts or bullet wounds. And testified that the water had washed away any evidence of how Laci was killed by the time her body was found.

He said he could not determine if three of her ribs were broken before or after she was killed. The coroner ruled the death a homicide, but did not offer a cause.

Almost all major internal organs were gone, leaving the torso skeletal, Brian Peterson said. The only internal organ that remained was the uterus, still attached to her empty midsection after months in the water, he said, adding that there were no indications it had been cut.

“My belief is that (the) uterus was intact at the time this body was deposited in the water,” Brian Peterson said. “I believe Conner was in that uterus.” He also said there was “no signs” of a vaginal birth. But under cross examination by Geragos, Brian Peterson said he could not rule out that Conner Peterson had been born alive.

His remains showed considerably less decomposition than hers, a phenomenon Brian Peterson said could be attributed to the baby’s body remaining protected inside the womb until a few days before it was found. There was ¼-inch of umbilical cord attached to the fetus. The end was tattered and frayed, which is consistent with tearing but not cutting, Brian Peterson said.

In his report, Brian Peterson indicated that Conner appeared to be nine months old at the time of death. A forensic anthropologist who examined the remains later and measured bones estimated the age at between 34 to 40 weeks, with most bones estimated at being 35 weeks old or higher, Brian Peterson said.

Geragos also pointed to a bag found with duct tape attached to it in “the vicinity” of the bodies. The remains were found in April just over a mile apart along the bay’s eastern shoreline.

Brian Peterson testified He testified that Conner had a gash in the chest and tape around his neck, but was in relatively good condition, leading him to conclude it had probably only recently emerged from the mother when the bodies were found a day apart in mid-April, and that the 1½ loops of plastic tape around Conner’s neck, was ocean debris.

Geragos suggested the variance in decomposition between the bodies could be attributed to the bag being placed on Conner and secured with the plastic tape.

“I think that’s possible, I certainly don’t think it’s likely,” Brian Peterson said. “It’s not my top choice.”

Based on measurements of the child's remains, Dr. Peterson originally believed it was a full-term fetus, but he later said the prolonged submersion had probably swollen the body. He said an anthropologist estimated the fetus to be 33 weeks to 38 weeks old.

Geragos pressed the doctor about a strip of plastic tape that looped loosely around the baby's neck and was knotted around one shoulder. He asked if it could be related to a bag found nearby with duct tape on it and suggested the bag could have protected the child's body from the sea.

Dr. Peterson said he believed the fetus had become entangled in flotsam or jetsam and that the tape hadn't even caused any damage to the skin.

"This baby would have had to be swimming to get this tape over the head and around the arm," Geragos said in disbelief.

"I agree it's unlikely that that baby would swim," Dr. Peterson replied.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-19   2:00:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#77)

#77. To: nolu chan (#74)

BobCeleste (#71) -- Show me where in the Constitution of The United States, SCOTUS get's that authority.

The Marbury v. Madison interpretation of the Constitution has been the Law of the Land for over two centuries. We are free to disagree with it, as we are free to disagree with Roe v. Wade, but disagreeing with it changes nothing. --- nolu chan

Marbury is an opinion of the SCOTUS, not the law of the land. -- And in any case, Marbury also conceded that the SCOTUS was bound to honor the words of the Constitution, -- which gives them no authority to issue 'laws of the land'..

tpaine posted on 2015-09-18 18:39:53 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply Edit

Replies to Comment # 77. There are no replies to Comment # 77.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-19   5:41:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: nolu chan (#78)

Only tpaine could assert that this particular Scott from Modesto was just convicted of anything, much less convicted of murder of a fetus by late term abortion.

I never contended that Scott Peterson was convicted of abortion, as he was convicted of murdering a late term fetus..

-- You're going insane about this issue.. Calm yourself.

---And keep digging your fake lawyer hole.. You're making a fool of yourself by reposting damn near the entire discussion, in order to prove what? -- That I'm some sort of evil, malevolent liar?

Get real, and go see a mental health professional.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-19   6:02:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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