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Title: The Case for Kim Davis
Source: Huffington Post
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanl ... e-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html
Published: Sep 9, 2015
Author: Stanley Fish
Post Date: 2015-09-15 15:51:22 by nolu chan
Keywords: None
Views: 9520
Comments: 84

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis_b_8109590.html

The Case for Kim Davis

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/09/2015 9:05 am EDT
Updated: 09/09/2015 2:59 pm EDT

In much of the mainstream media Kim Davis's case is regarded as cut and dried: She sought an office that requires its holder to license marriages according to the law; the law now recognizes a union between persons of the same sex as a valid marriage; when Davis refuses to issue licenses to same sex-couples because according to her religion marriage is a union between a man and a woman, she puts herself above the law she has pledged to uphold and carry out; end of story.

But it's not that simple. When federal judge David Bunning declared that people cannot be allowed "to choose what orders they follow" just because their conscience tells them to -- religious faith, he said, "is not a viable of defense" -- he was signing on to Justice Antonin Scalia's reasoning in Employment Division v. Smith (1990). Two Native Americans who had been denied employment compensation benefits because they had ingested peyote during a church ceremony claimed an exemption from the law governing controlled substances; their behavior, they argued, was protected under the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion. Scalia responded by citing Reynolds v. United States: "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land." Democratic government, Scalia added, "must be preferred to a system in which each conscience is a law unto itself."

Although these sentiments have the sound of common sense, they were received in 1990 as "a revolution in Free Exercise jurisprudence" (Steven Gey, Religion and the State) because they went against a then-established tradition of deferring to religiously inspired action even when it conflicted with a generally applicable law. Sherbert v. Verner (1963), for example, turns on the denial of unemployment benefits to a Seventh Day Adventist because she declined work that required her to show up on Saturdays. Lower courts upheld the denial, but the Supreme Court reversed it, holding that no one should be forced to choose between "abandoning one of the precepts of her religion" and securing a job; the burden on free exercise is just too great. (Hello, Kim Davis.)

Obviously, these two decisions (and there are many more on either side of the divide) offer different templates for determining how to think about Kim Davis: from the perspective of Smith, Judge Bunning got it right; from the perspective of Sherbert, the state should find a way to accommodate Davis's deeply held beliefs and not exact as the price for adhering to them her employment and her physical freedom. (She has now been released, but after having been jailed for six days.)

What makes things so sticky is that the conflict between these two perspectives is built into the free exercise clause itself: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The question (and it is a question that cannot be answered by just parsing the text) is, What does it mean to freely exercise one's religion? Scalia gives one answer in Smith when he draws a line between the having and expressing of religious convictions and the conduct a believer might engage in because she thinks those convictions command it. In his view, free exercise extends only to the thought and expression part; "otherwise prohibitable conduct" is not saved, he says, merely because it is "accompanied by religious convictions."

But this severe take on the matter raises the question of why there is a free exercise clause in the first place. If thinking and publishing religious thoughts is what is being protected, the free expression clause of the First Amendment takes care of that already. Why have an additional clause unless it is to protect something additional, and what could that something additional be except the actions that follow necessarily in the eyes of the believer from the beliefs she is committed to? Many who agree with Bunning's ruling say that Davis is still free to practice her religion, but that is only so if "practice" is confined to the circuit between her heart and her God (and there are religions whose duties are so confined). But if practice extends to the deeds that are for her the expression and confirmation of her faith, the prohibition or criminalization of those deeds will be an abridgment of her freedom because it is a burden on her free exercise.

If the free exercise clause is strongly interpreted to include actions as well as thoughts, the clash between religious and legal imperatives is inevitable. Nor can conflict be avoided by an act of compartmentalization, by saying you can order your private life in the home or the church as you like, but when you act in the public square you must conform to the civil norms enacted by a legislature. This familiar distinction (given canonical form by John Locke in his Letter Concerning Toleration, 1689) seems neat, but just underneath its surface is the tension it claims to outflank. Just ask yourself, how will the boundaries between the private and public spheres be established? Who will draw the lines? The answer will always be "the state," and that answer puts the state in the business of determining what does and does not fall within the scope of religion. It is hard to see how that can legitimately be the state's prerogative: What enables a civil magistrate to be the arbiter of religious doctrine and the policeman of its territory?

One might try to finesse the dilemma by invoking the oft-cited biblical verse "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." But that raises the question of "What after all belongs to Caesar?" -- a question that cannot be answered by Caesar without making him the head of the Church, as he has been in some societies, but not in ours. When what Caesar requires speaks only to the maintenance of good civil order, the believer will have no trouble acquiescing; but when what Caesar requires is the commission or condoning of sin (a distinction without a difference), the believer who acquiesces is in danger of harming her immortal soul. That is how Kim Davis sees it, and no secular reason -- no reason derived from a world view in which God has been eliminated or kicked upstairs -- is going to persuade her to see otherwise.

Years ago Justice Potter Stewart famously said that the refusal to permit religious exercises in the public schools should be understood "not as the realization of state neutrality," but as "the establishment of a religion of secularism" (dissent in School District of Abington v. Schempp, 1963). What Stewart sees (but doesn't quite say) is that neutrality is secularism. A state that declares itself neutral toward religion -- will not pronounce on it one way or the other -- is a state that has taken religion off the political table and effectively neutered it while pretending to be indifferent to it. "We won't say yes or no to religion" means that we will operate independently of its perspective; it means, in effect, that we say no to it. It is in the end impossible for the secular state to be fair to religion, not only because fairness is not what religion demands -- it demand precedence -- but because fairness is a secular value whose invocation always marks the marginalization and downgrading of religious interests in favor of the interests the state has identified as primary. Just ask Kim Davis.

= = = = = = = = = =

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-fish/the-case-for-kim-davis-part-two_b_8135136.html

The Case for Kim Davis: Part Two

By Stanley Fish
Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor and Professor of Law at Florida International University; Floershimer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School

Huffington Post
Posted: 09/14/2015 8:05 pm EDT
Updated: 09/14/2015 8:59 pm EDT

The responses to my column "The Case For Kim Davis" are for the most part thoughtful and raise important issues. I say "for the most part" because I want to set aside as not in the ballpark comments like, "Religious beliefs are absurd in the first place," or, "All religion is fiction." Those who make statements like these or deride religion as a vestige of medieval ignorance (actually, the Middle Ages were enormously sophisticated) announce that they can't take the Kim Davis matter seriously -- they can't take seriously the dilemma of someone who finds her legal and contractual obligations in tension with her obligations to God. It is as if someone invited into a discussion of the Common Core curriculum were to say, "I don't believe in education." He would not be contributing to the discussion, but trashing it in advance, and the genuine participants in the conversation would be within their rights to say (as I say now to the religion-haters), 'Well, you've opted out so go sit in your corner and be quiet.'

I am not so ready to dismiss those who regard religion as a hobby (like stamp collecting or bungee jumping) or an ornament (there's all that nice music and those gorgeous vestments) that is perfectly alright if it keeps its place, but something that must give way to more serious things like the rule of law. It is not that those who think this way don't take religion seriously; rather they take seriously a truncated, diminished version of it -- a version that keeps it safely sequestered in large buildings open mainly on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays -- and become very nervous when a more robust version of religious practice comes to the fore.

A good example is the commentator who declares that, "The problem comes when religion goes off the rails by requiring its disciples to believe in things that are contrary to the democratic goals of freedom and fairness." I would rephrase this to read, "The problem comes when religion stays on the rails of the track it is commanded to ride and refuses to switch onto the track of an alternative authority and prefer a rival's values to its own." Freedom and fairness are prime values in a vision of political life that has at its center the exaltation and protection of individual rights; it is not so much the choices individuals make that are honored but their capacity to make them. A rights regime -- and that is what the liberal state is -- is largely indifferent to the content of the rights being exercised and cares only that, when exercised, they leave room for the exercise of those same rights by others.

In contrast, religion's prime value (and here I'm talking about the theistic religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) is obedience. The individual believer is not free to choose her own way and follow her own path; she must adhere to the path set out for her by a supreme, supra-human authority; she must keep to the way another has established. ("I am the way, the truth and the life.") She cannot cast off the tenets of her religion when they conflict with worldly mandates. She cannot, that is, exercise her religion intermittently, on weekends and sacred holidays, and dance to secular tunes for the rest of the time.

Yet some want Kim Davis to do this. They say that her religious freedom has not been burdened because she can still believe what she wants and worship where she wants. They say she has the right to believe what she believes (thank you very much!), but "not to act on her beliefs." They say that Judge Bunning's ruling did not outlaw or discourage her religious practice. They say that "religion is a personal matter." They say that "religious beliefs are best practiced at home."

These declarations, culled from the comments (and there are many more like them), amount to a secular pronouncement on the proper scope of religious belief and practice: The practice is proper when it is confined to thoughts or to rituals acted out in the church and the home; the practice is proper when it remains personal -- a transaction between Davis and her God -- but not when it spills over into actions performed in the public square. Restricting religious exercise in this way makes it manageable by the liberal state, which can display its liberality by quarantining practices it doesn't take seriously in safe places where they pose no threat to the state's hegemony.

But what do you do with those who, because they adhere to a religion that does not recognize the private-public distinction, decline to leave their religious convictions at home when they venture out into the world? Well, you can demonize them, as some of the respondents to my column do, or you can say, 'Well, this is not my cup of tea, but nevertheless a significant number of my fellow citizens drink from this source, and perhaps we should find a way to accommodate them without turning our republic into a theocracy.'

Note that accommodation does not mean acceptance of religious tenets or even a deep understanding of why some hold to them so fiercely. You can remain puzzled by what appears to you to be baseless zealotry; you can even be incredulous in the face of obdurate commitments to something for which there is no empirical evidence. But you ought not to doubt the sincerity of those who hold such commitments or demand that fidelity to them only take the form sanctioned by secular values. You might decide that flexibility tempered by generosity is the better path.

That may be well and good (the reply would come), as long as these "sincere" religionists do not impose their beliefs on others. This is the key complaint against Davis's stance and actions: She is forcing citizens of Kentucky who seek marriage licenses to conform to her religious convictions, and by doing so she is establishing a state religion in violation of the First Amendment. But in fact she's doing nothing of the kind. She is trying to live out her faith and she finds her efforts toward that end frustrated by the requirement that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. It is not that she wants to stop them from getting married; she just doesn't want to be associated with it.

She and her lawyers ask only that when the licenses are issued, they bear neither her name nor the name of her office. As UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh explains, Davis was not satisfied with Judge Bunning's plan to have the licenses handled by her deputies because under that arrangement the licenses and certificates "are still being issued (in her view) under her ostensible authority, even though Davis has not authorized them." In short, as Amy K. Hall observes, "her goal is not to impose her views on people trying to obtain licenses, although that was the unintended consequence while no licenses were being issued." (It might be said that whatever her goal, those who do not receive licenses are inconvenienced, but that could also be said of Davis who is inconvenienced, and more, when the state, with no intention to burden her faith, requires her to do something that in her view violates it.)

But isn't the fact that she is an elected official mean that an accommodation is not available to her and that her choice is either to do her duty or resign? This is the second most voiced complaint against Davis's position and also against my citing of cases that involve accommodations given to private persons. Again the answer to the question is "no." It is true that under Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act elected officials cannot receive religiously-based exemptions, but as Volokh points out, Kentucky, like a number of other states, has a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and these statutes do not rule out "accommodation claims by elected officials."

Of course the claim is not automatically granted and could be denied if a court determined, for example, that requiring Davis to issue licenses did not in fact substantially burden her religious exercise. That essentially is what the federal district court in Kentucky determined, reasoning that because Davis "may continue to attend church twice a week, participate in Bible Study and minister to female inmates," her religious activities have not been curtailed. But as I argued earlier, this is an impoverished view of religious exercise that reflects the liberal refusal to take religious faith seriously except as something you attest to in private where it doesn't bother anybody.

Under a more robust view in which her duties involve more than church attendance and charity work and extend to doing (or refraining from doing) work in the world, the burden on Davis could be said to be considerable. Here is Volokh making just that point: "If Davis believes that it's religiously wrong for her to issue licenses with her name on them, ordering her to do that indeed burdens her religious beliefs" and giving her a modest exemption (one that did not unduly impair the work of the clerk's office) might "indeed be required by the Kentucky RFRA." (And it won't do to argue that she's not condoning anything by affixing her name; that's for her, not an outside monitor, to decide, and she has obviously decided, in accordance with the First Amendment category of "compelled speech," that she doesn't want even the appearance of signing onto a practice she believes to be sinful.)

There are a lot of "mights" and "coulds" here, and it is by no means certain either that Davis will receive an exemption or that she should receive one. That is a question for the courts, which must draw the appropriate lines. But it is a real question and that's all I've been saying in these two columns: There is a case for Kim Davis to be made, and while that case may not prevail, it is not frivolous or absurd or outrageous or entirely without merit as some who have posted here maintain.

This brings me to a final point. Some posters castigate Davis for being self-righteous; but if there were a self-righteousness competition, Davis's critics would win it hands down.

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#8. To: buckeroo (#1)

That is Kim Davis' weak and silly argument. Infact, what the USSC performed was increased separation of the impact of any religious doctrine upon federal/state law. She is applying a personal religious opinion to her county/state "authority" as a clerk.

Or invoking the First Amendment right to free exercise of her religion as explicitly provided for by Kentucky RFRA. When substantially burdening a person's freedom of religion, the Kentucky government must prove by clear and convincing evidence that it has a compelling government interest in infringing the specific act or refusal to act and has used the least restrictive means to further that interest. A reasonably available accommodation would be less restrictive than saying "just do it."

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   17:08:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: misterwhite (#7)
(Edited)

She must issue these licenses. Ya? And if she is questioned about issuing these licenses, she should say she was just following orders.

That's a valid excuse, right? Just following orders? Or would you say someone doesn't have to follow an order if it violates their conscience?

I've already tried that reasoning with the drug lover. He's hypocritical... and can't defend it. Buckster feels all cops should disregard the law (and their oath)... but he'd like Davis shot for doing so... that's because Ba ba ba Bucky is a libtard. Loves fags and drugs... and hates cops.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-15   17:14:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: misterwhite (#3)

I like Scalia but, during Prohibition, churches were allowed to use wine in the service.

I generally like Scalia but I'm not a fan of that opinion either. I think the article raises a good question about the issue of exericse of religion.

What makes things so sticky is that the conflict between these two perspectives is built into the free exercise clause itself: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The question (and it is a question that cannot be answered by just parsing the text) is, What does it mean to freely exercise one's religion? Scalia gives one answer in Smith when he draws a line between the having and expressing of religious convictions and the conduct a believer might engage in because she thinks those convictions command it. In his view, free exercise extends only to the thought and expression part; "otherwise prohibitable conduct" is not saved, he says, merely because it is "accompanied by religious convictions."

But this severe take on the matter raises the question of why there is a free exercise clause in the first place. If thinking and publishing religious thoughts is what is being protected, the free expression clause of the First Amendment takes care of that already. Why have an additional clause unless it is to protect something additional, and what could that something additional be except the actions that follow necessarily in the eyes of the believer from the beliefs she is committed to?

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   17:48:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: misterwhite, buckeroo (#7)

She must issue these licenses. Ya? And if she is questioned about issuing these licenses, she should say she was just following orders.

That's a valid excuse, right? Just following orders? Or would you say someone doesn't have to follow an order if it violates their conscience?

She has refused to issue these licenses, and she has refused to authorize anyone to issue them in her name.

There is no power that can force her to do something she refuses to do. The state can impeach her and remove her from office if it shows there is no reasonable accommodation.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   17:57:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: nolu chan (#10)

"Why have an additional clause unless it is to protect something additional, and what could that something additional be except the actions that follow necessarily in the eyes of the believer from the beliefs she is committed to?"

These are the types of questions that should have been asked before passing the law.

Now they act as though the law was always there and here comes someone who objects on religious grounds. No one saw this coming?

PLUS, the attitude of people is that SHE should give up her (well-paying) job if she objects. Hell, that's like saying if you're sexually harassed at work, YOU should quit.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-09-15   18:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: SOSO (#4)

The Volstead Act made an exception for medical and sacramental uses. Meaning government CAN allow religious exemptions.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-09-15   18:21:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: nolu chan (#11)

She has refused to issue these licenses, and she has refused to authorize anyone to issue them in her name.

There is no power that can force her to do something she refuses to do. The state can impeach her and remove her from office if it shows there is no reasonable accommodation.

Kimmy is BIG DEEP DOO-DOO.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-09-15   18:40:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: misterwhite (#7)

She must issue these licenses. Ya? And if she is questioned about issuing these licenses, she should say she was just following orders.

That's a valid excuse, right? Just following orders? Or would you say someone doesn't have to follow an order if it violates their conscience?

All government bureaucrats eventually discover their financial well-being from the federal government as a meaningful experience. She is just another charlatan not willing to quit her government job based on her religious conversion.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-09-15   18:50:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: misterwhite (#13)

The Volstead Act made an exception for medical and sacramental uses. Meaning government CAN allow religious exemptions.

Of course it can. Davis should not be one of them.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-09-15   20:22:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: buckeroo (#14)

Kimmy is BIG DEEP DOO-DOO.

Kimmy is not in any doo-doo at all. She has not been charged with any crime and she will not be charged with any crime. She has not been removed from office and will not be removed.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   22:56:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: nolu chan (#11)

She has refused to issue these licenses, and she has refused to authorize anyone to issue them in her name.

There is no power that can force her to do something she refuses to do. The state can impeach her and remove her from office if it shows there is no reasonable accommodation.

This is true.

However, the marriage licenses will be issued by her underlings, perhaps against her orders, people will get married using them, and those certificates will be valid, in spite of having been issued in contravention of Kentucky statute.

Kim Davis will lose her appeal, and no Kentucky anything will be permitted to stand in the way of, or slow down, the swift implementation of gay marriage in that state. The Supreme Court has spoken, the Federal constitution imposes gay marriage as a Constitutional right, and any state constitution, law, ordinance or procedure that stands in the wall is nullified by the need to obey the Constitution.

This has happened many times before, when the Supreme Court has found a right that contravened all sorts of state laws. And when that happens, the state laws are broken, and left unenforced, until such time as the state legislature gets around to changing the statute.

What the state cannot do by direct legislation, no individual can do by obstructing. The equitable powers of the federal court to impose a just result on Constitutional bases obliterate state structural impediments to the contrary. The Federal Judge has the power to write procedures and enforce them, that achieve the objective of the federal Constitution, if the state law does not supply an answer.

Here, she's an elected official, and the state law would require a delay. But the Constitution has spoken, and it is Supreme. State law evaporates completely as a means to even DELAY the implemation of rights. The state laws will be ignored, and the federal law will be whatever-the-hell, imposed by equitable powers, to achieve the OBJECTIVE.

If the fact that state laws are broken all over the place is too painful for the legal mind, then after the fact the state legislature will get around to passing a make good.

A county clerk will not successfully stand up to a federal judge on a matter of federal constitutional law, recently decided by the Supreme Court. And the Sixth Circuit will never back her over against the Supreme Court.

She loses, and she loses fast. She has no power of delay. All of the Kentucky laws have been erased by the superior constitutional right, and as there's nothing there in place to deal with this, the Federal judge is empowered by the Constitution to simply make up an equitable answer, which he will do, and be fully backed by the Sixth Circuit and the Supreme Court.

There is no fight here. Only the illusion that there is. Federal equity on a constitutional matter trumps the Constitution of the State of Kentucky, and every other law there.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-09-15   23:06:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: SOSO, misterwhite (#16)

Of course it can. Davis should not be one of them.

The Kentucky RFRA is an applicable Kentucky law. Unlike Federal Title 7, it applies to elected officials.

If forcing one to perform any act to condone, or indirectly condone, same-sex marriage substantially burden's one's sincerely held religious beliefs it is enough to invoke RFRA, requires an accommodation or a showing that no accomodation is reasonably available. And a prima facie case invoking RFRA may invoke strict scrutiny as the standard for review.

KENTUCKY RFRA

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/13rs/HB279/bill.doc

UNOFFICIAL COPY AS OF 09/08/15 -- 13 REG. SESS. -- 13 RS HB 279/VO

AN ACT relating to construction of the law.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Kentucky:

SECTION 1. A NEW SECTION OF KRS CHAPTER 446 IS CREATED TO READ AS FOLLOWS:

Government shall not substantially burden a person's freedom of religion. The right to act or refuse to act in a manner motivated by a sincerely held religious belief may not be substantially burdened unless the government proves by clear and convincing evidence that it has a compelling governmental interest in infringing the specific act or refusal to act and has used the least restrictive means to further that interest. A "burden" shall include indirect burdens such as withholding benefits, assessing penalties, or an exclusion from programs or access to facilities.

- - - - -

http://volokh.com/2013/12/02/1a-religious-freedom-restoration-act/

1A. What Is the Religious Freedom Restoration Act?

By Eugene Volokh
on December 2, 2013 7:43 am

[Excerpts]

To distinguish cases where religious objectors win from those in which they lose, the Sherbert/Yoder-era Court used what it called “strict scrutiny” when the law imposed a “substantial burden” on people’s religious beliefs (e.g., when it banned behavior that the objectors saw as religiously compelled, or mandated behavior that the objectors saw as religiously prohibited). Under this strict scrutiny, religious objectors were to be given an exemption, unless denying the exemption was the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest.

[...]

[N]ote that the following all constitute a substantial burden:

1. The government’s compelling someone to do something that violates his religious beliefs, or prohibiting someone from doing something that is mandated by his religious beliefs.

2. The government’s denying someone a tax exemption or unemployment compensation unless he does something that violates his religious beliefs, or refrains from something that is mandated by his religious beliefs.

3. As to state and federal constitutional regimes, it’s not clear whether the above also applies when the objector’s conduct is merely motivated by his religious beliefs (e.g., the objector thinks it’s a religiously valuable thing for him to stay home on the Sabbath, rather than a religious commandment) and not actually mandated by those beliefs. The federal RFRA, many state RFRAs, and RLUIPA expressly apply to “any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by … a system of religious belief.”

4. The beliefs need not be longstanding, central to the claimant’s religious beliefs, internally consistent, consistent with any written scripture, or reasonable from the judge’s perspective. They need only be sincere.

The asserted religious beliefs of Kim Davis need not be reasonable in your view or the judge's view. They need only be sincere. "Do it or be fired" stopped being the law about 40 years ago. Now it is certify that there is no reasonable accommodation or get sued for unlawful termination. Accommodations are especially prevalent in Federal civil service.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-15   23:33:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: nolu chan (#6)

Show me where in the US Constitution, SCOTUS has the authority to overrule a change in a State Constitution ratified by the people.

They don't so my argument stands.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-16   9:29:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: buckeroo (#15)

"She is just another charlatan not willing to quit her government job"

Are you saying your solution is that she should quit her well-paying job? That's the answer?

And do you also believe that if a woman is sexually harassed at work, she should quit?

misterwhite  posted on  2015-09-16   11:27:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: BobCeleste (#20)

"Show me where in the US Constitution, SCOTUS has the authority to overrule a change in a State Constitution ratified by the people."

The 14th amendment, Due Process clause, is and has been used to override state constitutions and state laws starting in the mid-20th century.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-09-16   11:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: nolu chan (#11)

"She has refused to issue these licenses, and she has refused to authorize anyone to issue them in her name."

No big deal. Go to the next county. There are 120 county clerks in Kentucky, and they'll be more than happy to issue a faggot marriage license.

Well, all except one.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-09-16   11:37:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: BobCeleste (#20)

Show me where in the US Constitution, SCOTUS has the authority to overrule a change in a State Constitution ratified by the people.

Your contention falls to Article 6, the Supremacy Clause.

Article 6 (2):

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-16   14:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: misterwhite (#23)

No big deal. Go to the next county. There are 120 county clerks in Kentucky, and they'll be more than happy to issue a faggot marriage license.

Well, all except one.

Actually, there are three such clerks in Kentucky.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/03/kentucky-clerks-refusing-marriage-licenses

Kentucky clerk is one of three in state refusing to issue marriage licenses

[...]

But she’s not the only defecting clerk in Kentucky. Two other clerks, Casey Davis of Casey County and Kay Schwartz of Whitley County, are also still refusing to perform same-sex marriages.

Same-sex couples have the legal right to obtain a license in the county where they choose to get married. It is not a question of whether the state must provide for the issuance of such licenses, but whether a clerk will be provided with an accommodation to have someone other than her issuing them, in cases where the issuance burdens her religious beliefs and an accommodation is reasonably available.

Curiously, while she was in the office and defying the court order, the law did not make provision for anyone else to issue the licenses. However, when she was detained, and forcibly absent from the office, then the law provided for another official to be eligible to issue a license, but it was a specific judge, not a deputy clerk.

If a state assigns the responsibility for performing marriages to justices of the peace or judges, and they all are Roman Catholic or Orthodox Jews, and nobody but they were authorized by the state to perform a marriage, could the Federal government require them to perform same-sex marriage as a constitutional requirement?

Why would the judge acquire an exemption from the constitutional requirement that does not pertain to Kim Davis? Or that does not pertain to the flower vendor or baker?

What sort of circus would ensue if an Orthodox Jew were to be jailed for refusing to comply with a court order to perform a same-sex marriage?

Even the Rabbi or Priest is called into question as they perform a dual function of religious and civil marriage and sign state documents to give the marriage state recognition. Would officials of the Holy Church of the Hetero by required to perform same-sex marriage?

It is unlikely to happen in the immediate future, but for political rather than legal reasons. An orthodox rabbi sitting in a jail cell for refusing to comply with a Bunning-like court order would cause a political shitstorm of epic proportions. But it would seem as constitutional as the order to a county clerk. The Supreme Court did not find a constitutional right to a marriage license emanating from a century and a half old penumbra, it found a constitutional right to marriage.

See the oral argument in Obergefell.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/14-556q1_11o2.pdf

Oral Argument transcript at 23-25.

[23]

[SCALIA] ... But once it's it's made a matter of constitutional law, those exceptions for example, is it is it conceivable that a minister who is authorized by the State to conduct marriage can decline to marry two men if indeed this Court holds that they have a constitutional right to marry? Is it conceivable that that would be allowed?

MS. BONAUTO: Your Honor, of course the Constitution will continue to apply, and right to this day, no clergy is forced to marry any couple that they don't want to marry. We have those protections.

JUSTICE SCALIA: But but right to this day, we have never held that there is a constitutional right for these two people to marry, and the minister is

[24]

to the extent he's conducting a civil marriage, he's an instrument of the State. I don't see how you could possibly allow that minister to say, I will only marry a man and a woman. I will not marry two men. Which means you you would you could you could have ministers who who conduct real marriages that that are civilly enforceable at the National Cathedral, but not at St. Matthews downtown, because that minister refuses to marry two men, and therefore, cannot be given the State power to make a real State marriage. I don't see any any answer to that. I really don't.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Counselor, there have been antidiscrimination laws in various States; correct?

MS. BONAUTO: Yes, Your Honor.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Antidiscrimination laws regarding gay people.

MS. BONAUTO: Correct.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: And in any of those States, have ministers been forced to do gay marriages?

MS. BONAUTO: Of course not, Your Honor. And

JUSTICE SCALIA: They are laws. They are not constitutional requirements. That was the whole point of my question. If you let the States do it, you can make an exception. The State can say, yes, two men

[25]

can marry, but but ministers who do not believe in in samesex marriage will still be authorized to conduct marriages on behalf of the State. You can't do that once it is a constitutional proscription.

MS. BONAUTO: If one thing is firm, and I believe it is firm, that under the First Amendment, that a clergyperson cannot be forced to officiate at a marriage that he or she does not want to officiate at. And since there were several other questions, if I may.

JUSTICE SCALIA: He's not being required to officiate. He's just not given the State's power, unless he agrees to use that power in in accordance with the Constitution. I don't seems to me you have to you have to make that exception. You can't appoint people who will then go ahead and violate the Constitution.

MS. BONAUTO: I think if we're talking about a government individual, a clerk, a judge, who's empowered to authorize marriage, that is a different matter that they are going to have to follow through, unless, again, a State decides to make some exceptions. In Connecticut, after the court permitted marriage, it did actually pass a law to do deal with implementation issues, including these kinds of liberty issues.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Because it was a State law.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-16   15:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: nolu chan (#24)

Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-16   20:34:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: nolu chan (#19)

They need only be sincere.

SO, Kim Davis is a regular devout "Mother Teresa" 'eh? She became a Christian this year.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-09-16   20:54:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: BobCeleste (#26)

Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

Though, factually, your statement is absoloutly, 100% correct... however riddle me this Bobman... why have a SC or why should they rule on anything if their "opinions" aren't gonna be upheld as CASE LAW?

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-16   21:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: BobCeleste (#26)

Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

SCOTUS made no law, it (allegedly) interpreted the Constitution and found a right to marriage contained therein, in a manner comparable to Roe v. Wade. You may make believe it does not matter, but try passing a state law criminalizing abortion or same-sex marriage and you know full well you will discover the truth is not contained in your silly imagination.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-16   23:45:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: buckeroo (#27)

SO, Kim Davis is a regular devout "Mother Teresa" 'eh? She became a Christian this year.

Try fact checking or making believe you have read the transcript, rather that just make up your crap and spewing bullshit.

Hearing transcript at 50:

Q. And when did you become a Christian?

A. 2011 is when I had dedicated my life to God, January 2011.

Q. Do you remember the day that you became a Christian?

A. Yes, January 23rd.

So, apparently you consider January 23, 2011 to be "this year."

Moreover, as you must have noticed:

4. The beliefs need not be longstanding, central to the claimant’s religious beliefs, internally consistent, consistent with any written scripture, or reasonable from the judge’s perspective. They need only be sincere.

It would appear you were stumped by the law and unable to formulate a reasonable or effective response.

She does not have to be Mother Teresa. She need only be sincere.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-16   23:55:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: nolu chan (#30)

She is about as "sincere" as a rabid cop looking for a puppy to shoot.

buckeroo  posted on  2015-09-17   7:38:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: GrandIsland (#28)

Though, factually, your statement is absoloutly, 100% correct... however riddle me this Bobman... why have a SC or why should they rule on anything if their "opinions" aren't gonna be upheld as CASE LAW?

First 'case law' is not law. Second, have you noticed that the members of the SCOTUSa re not elected, but appointed? Third, When Jackson was president, the SCOTUS ruled that the Cherokees could stay on their land, Jackson order the army to move them in defiance of the court, the army moved them and Jackson said something to the effect of "When the SC get's an army then I'll listen to them"

If you called me and asked me for my opinion on say Leviticus 10:1-5, your calling and asking and my answering do not make it absolute fact that you msut abide by, only God can do that. Likewise when the court issues a ruling or an opinion, it is up to Congress to address it, to decide to abide by it 100%, 1% or not at all.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-17   12:53:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: nolu chan (#29)

Kentucky ahs such a law and it is enshrined in their Constitution. Your argument is that of a fool, I had thought better of you, but in this subject your bias is showing to the point that I will ask you, if I can ask you a personal question.

May I ask you a personal question?

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-17   12:56:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: BobCeleste (#32)

Case Law

Legal principles enunciated and embodied in judicial decisions that are derived from the application of particular areas of law to the facts of individual cases. As opposed to statutes—legislative acts that proscribe certain conduct by demanding or prohibiting something or that declare the legality of particular acts—case law is a dynamic and constantly developing body of law. Each case contains a portion wherein the facts of the controversy are set forth as well as the holding and dicta—an explanation of how the judge arrived at a particular conclusion. In addition, a case might contain concurring and dissenting opinions of other judges.

Since the U.S. legal system has a common-law system, higher court decisions are binding on lower courts in cases with similar facts that raise similar issues. The concept of precedent, or Stare Decisis, means to follow or adhere to previously decided cases in judging the case at bar. It means that appellate case law should be considered as binding upon lower courts.

Case law from the higher courts (such as appellate and USC) are legally binding... which means it's just as binding as the originally written law.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   13:38:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: buckeroo (#31)

She is about as "sincere" as a rabid cop looking for a puppy to shoot.

Then the judge should have said that instead of what he did say.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   14:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: GrandIsland (#34)

Since the U.S. legal system has a common-law system, higher court decisions are binding on lower courts

yes, but that does not alter the fat that it is an opinion or a ruling, not law. Nor does it, in any whay shape or form authorize the overruling of a vote of the people to amend that states Constitution.

Congress needs to stop thinking about how much money they can skim ans start putting their foot down with the other two branches.

BobCeleste  posted on  2015-09-17   14:15:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: BobCeleste (#33)

Kentucky ahs such a law and it is enshrined in their Constitution. Your argument is that of a fool, I had thought better of you, but in this subject your bias is showing to the point that I will ask you, if I can ask you a personal question.

May I ask you a personal question?

A state constitutional provision in conflict with the U.S. Constitution, as determined the the U.S. Supreme Court, is null and void. Even someone a simple minded as yourself must have noticed that Kentucky is issuing same-sex marriage licenses as directed by the Kentucky governor.

The United States adopted the common law system of law. Denial of binding court precedent as law denies this basic fact. Take away court precedent as law and we have no legal system at all. We did not adopt the Roman Code system of law.

You can ask anything you like. Whether you get an answer to your liking depends on what you ask.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   14:21:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: BobCeleste, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#33) (Edited)

BobCeleste (#26) ---- Congress has made no such law, the SCOTUS does not make law, the make rulings and issue opinions, you have no case, but simply want to argue, find someone else, I'll not play your silly game.

SCOTUS made no law, it (allegedly) interpreted the Constitution and found a right to marriage contained therein, in a manner comparable to Roe v. Wade. You may make believe it does not matter, but try passing a state law criminalizing abortion or same-sex marriage and you know full well you will discover the truth is not contained in your silly imagination. --- nolu chan posted

Kentucky ahs such a law and it is enshrined in their Constitution. Your argument is that of a fool, I had thought better of you, but in this subject your bias is showing ----- bobceleste

Nolu just made a comment on another thread about this issue: --

SCOTUS can strike down state law, but it cannot write any law, state or federal. It can rule that a law is null and void, but it cannot replace the law. That is done by the applicable legislature. --- nolu chan posted
The bell has just rung for another round gentlemen ....Come out fighting..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   14:26:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: BobCeleste, GrandIsland (#36)

yes, but that does not alter the fat that it is an opinion or a ruling, not law. Nor does it, in any whay shape or form authorize the overruling of a vote of the people to amend that states Constitution.

See: http://law.justia.com/cases/

"CASE LAW"

A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void.

State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking. It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   14:28:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#39)

"CASE LAW"

A SCOTUS holding that a state constitutional provision conflicts with the U.S. Constitution or U.S. law strikes down the state provision and makes it null and void.

State provisions that abortion was criminal were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. Any belief to the contrary is wishful thinking.

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

It is what happens when a SCOTUS issues a holding on the U.S Constitution. Any state provision to the contrary is struck down.

But a SCOTUS holding is still an opinion, and it can be ignored/modified by our other branches of our various level of govt, -- or by we the people.. -- Under the Art VI concept that such an opinion is NOT made "in pursuance thereof"..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   14:56:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: tpaine (#40)

But a SCOTUS holding is still an opinion, and it can be ignored/modified by our other branches of our various level of govt, -- or by we the people.. -- Under the Art VI concept that such an opinion is NOT made "in pursuance thereof"..

That's bullshit and you know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so. A SCOTUS holding on the Constitution can only be changed by an amendment to the Constitution.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   16:22:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: tpaine (#40)

State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder.

Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

Try reading the damn opinion before spewing your bullshit. If a doctor, in his apropriate medical judgment, determines that it is necessary for the preservation of the physical or mental health of the mother, the state can't do shit, even in the 9th month.

From the Syllabus with page references to the text.

3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term. Pp. 147-164.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician. Pp. 163, 164.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health. Pp. 163, 164.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

4. The State may define the term "physician" to mean only a physician currently licensed by the State, and may proscribe any abortion by a person who is not a physician as so defined. P. 165.

5. It is unnecessary to decide the injunctive relief issue since the Texas authorities will doubtless fully recognize the Court's ruling that the Texas criminal abortion statutes are unconstitutional. P. 166.

314 F. Supp. 1217, affirmed in part and reversed in part.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   16:39:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: nolu chan (#41)

That's bullshit and you know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so. A SCOTUS holding on the Constitution can only be changed by an amendment to the Constitution.

Bingo... correctly stated. Don't expect tpaine or Deckards little mini-me, Bob, to understand.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   16:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: nolu chan (#42)

" State provisions that abortion was criminal, (before the first trimester) were all struck down by Roe v. Wade. After that, States have the option to prosecute for murder." --tpaine

>> Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   17:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: GrandIsland, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#43)

To: nolu chan (#41)

That's bullshit and you know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so. A SCOTUS holding on the Constitution can only be changed by an amendment to the Constitution.

Bingo... correctly stated. Don't expect tpaine or Deckards little mini-me, Bob, to understand.

GrandIsland

That's bullshit and you, and nolu, know it. Repeatedly puking it up on the board does not make it so.

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   17:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: tpaine, GrandIsland (#45)

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

You seem a little short on examples, or any respectable legal authority who supports your insanity.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-09-17   17:59:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: nolu chan (#46)

Please quote that from your copy of Roe v. Wade where is says that "After that [the first trimester], States have the option to prosecute for murder."

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion, --

---- except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165.

In context, 'proscribe' means prosecute. Some States have prosecuted late term abolition as murder, but most don't, as its a political problem, not a constitutional one.

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion, and there are many occasions where those opinions have been ignored by many officials, and by we the people.

Try reading the damn opinion using common sense before spewing your legalistic bullshit. You are Not a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one..

A SCOTUS opinion about the constitution is just that, an opinion.

You seem a little short on examples, or any respectable legal authority who supports your insanity.

The Dred Scott opinion was largely ignored as did Jackson on Indians,- ,Lincoln on his war powers, -- the people on booze prohibition, etc..

You seem a little short on common sense, -- Why is that?

tpaine  posted on  2015-09-17   18:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: nolu chan (#46)

tpaine can site an example... like drugs. In tpaines anarchic dream world, drugs should be legal and therefore any SCOTUS decision regarding the constitutionality of drug laws is just an opinion and tpaine doesn't have to follow their opinion. Problem is, he believes his bullshit but won't take a pound of cocaine down to his local PD for pictures and autographs with the guys.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-09-17   18:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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