Watching The Cops
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Title: Texas cops shooting man with raised hands
Source:
Ars Technica
URL Source: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/ ... hooting-man-with-raised-hands/
Published: Sep 2, 2015
Author: David Kravets
Post Date: 2015-09-02 10:34:43 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 1915
Comments: 14
A Texas broadcaster has published video captured from a viewer's mobile phone that shows San Antonio police shoot and kill a man with his hands up. "He put his hands in the air and then he had his hands up for a few seconds and the cops shot him twice," Michael Thomas, the man who filmed the video, told CNN. The recorded incident highlights again a YouTube society of sorts where the public, seemingly uneasy with the police because of a raft of shootings, is filming officer activity more and more with their mobile phones. All the while, police departments are embracing body and dash cams to film the public. "I thought with everything going on in the world, with police shootings and everything, I thought I would record what was happening," Thomas said. "The deputies who were involved have families, and at this point, these deputies are still considered innocent until proven guilty," James Keith, a Bexar County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said. The sheriff's office tweeted Monday that KSAT was paid $100 for the video. "...[W]e're asking for calm..." the department tweeted. The deputies who fired have been identified as Greg Vasquez and Robert Sanchez. The pair is on paid leave, standard protocol following an officer-involved shooting. The video was shot Friday from afar, and the authorities said they are examining the footage. "We are aware that there is recorded video which appears to show the final moments of this deputy-involved shooting," Bexar County Sheriff Susan Pamerleau told a news conference. "It's among many pieces of evidence that we are collecting to determine what happened." The authorities said they were responding to a domestic disturbance call made from Flores' residence. Pamerleau said a woman was found with a cut on her head, and a baby appeared to be injured. She said Flores resisted arrest and that stun guns did not subdue him. The Bexar County district attorney told KSAT that there is another video, taken from closer range, that investigators are examining. KSAT said that the victim's criminal record "includes a 2003 aggravated robbery charge and a 1999 criminal trespass charge." Poster Comment: Well, at least it isn't FreeThoughtProject. The suspect has his hands raised but seems to drop his hands, maybe reaching for his waistband, just before (or as) the shots ring out. The shooting happened several hundred yards from the camera and these cellphones don't always have perfect sync between audio and video. I'm trying to point out that the sound of gunshot will take over a tenth of a second to travel 200 yards.
Graphic scene at 56 seconds. 
The video, published Monday, shows deputies shoot 41-year-old Gilbert Flores outside a house where police were responding to a domestic disturbance call.
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#1. To: TooConservative (#0)
Looks like murder to me.
I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I'll take your word for it.
Hard to tell. It appears as though he dropped his hands to his waistband before the shots. But given the distance (and the speed of sound), it's a toss up. Hard to believe a cop would risk his career (and freedom) and murder a guy with his hands up, in broad daylight, surrounded by an unknown number of witnesses and an unknown number of cameras.
There were two shots, so they're saying each deputy fired one. Meaning both deputies decided, simultaneously, to execute this guy? Ain't buying it.
Obviously, I was focused on that tenth of a second. Usually in these cop-shoots-little-old-Sunday-school-teacher stories, the video is 50 yards or less. But this distance starts to raise questions about the speed of sound and audio/video sync on some crappy cellphone. To me, that starts to look a lot like reasonable doubt in any trial of the two cops. We may get more video from the cops or their cars that will make the circumstances clearer. Something about the way the guy dropped his hands made it look like his hands were going to his waistband. And his hands took only one-tenth to two-tenths of a second to drop with the sound of the shot arriving at the cameraphone after his hands had dropped. My rule of thumb is that when cops have drawn on you and have said "You're under arrest", you don't make any sudden moves or they will ventilate your carcass. In recent years, people seem to think that cops have lost their lawful authority to take people into custody and that the laws give them a lot of leeway in their judgments. And the cop wins nearly every battle for supremacy on the street. Don't tempt the cops to shoot, especially if their guns are drawn and pointing at your torso.
Maybe. If one guy shot first and the other had his finger tight on the trigger, cop #2 might have startled just enough for his gun to go off. Stuff does happen.
True. But they didn't find any weapon in his waistband. Which is bothersome. Another explanation is that he was shot and he dropped his hands to cover the wound. Accidental discharge? Even with the video, it's hard to draw a firm conclusion.
What I've seen so far looks like reasonable doubt. Maybe an expert presentation in court of the timestamping on the video, expert testimony on the reliability of the codec, ballistics info on the distance from the shooting to the camera and so on might persuade me otherwise but it looks like an uphill slog for the prosecutor. And it changes nothing if he didn't have a concealed weapon in his waistband. You just don't make any sudden suspicious moves of any kind after the cop says "you're under arrest".
I agree. I'm just saying it would help explain his actions if he had a weapon in his waistband.
There were two shots, so they're saying each deputy fired one. Meaning both deputies decided, simultaneously, to execute this guy? Maybe. If one guy shot first and the other had his finger tight on the trigger, cop #2 might have startled just enough for his gun to go off. Stuff does happen. Yes it does... that's why one of the four primary firearm safety rules is... Trigger finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Something about the way the guy dropped his hands made it look like his hands were going to his waistband. And his hands took only one-tenth to two-tenths of a second to drop with the sound of the shot arriving at the cameraphone after his hands had dropped. Given the speed of sound / delay, if there were no sync issues with the phone recording, then he was shot before the shots were heard on the video, not after. His hands moving to his belly is consistent with a reaction to being shot, and the timing seems to support that. But the DA said he has much better video he's not showing yet, likely from the cops cars or body cams that should clear up the matter. From what he says, it seems the cops are in deep do-do.
Good thing that every cop always obeys the Four Rules. I'm sure you could tell a few stories. : )
Well, that is always true. Normally, it's negligible but this is an unusual vid, shot from hundreds of yards away. Then maybe this thread is premature and we'll have much better info later. But if the prosecutor has much more damning video and intends to prosecute, you'd think he would arrest them now instead of waiting. I increasingly think we need independent prosecutors and grand juries to examine police shootings. Empanel some retired cops, retired judges, retired police armorers. You'd probably get better results than with the current system (which is to automatically exonerate all but the most egregious unlawful shootings). There is too much conflict of interest to expect a working prosecutor to be even-handed in prosecuting his own police force for misconduct. And I think the public would trust an independent panel more and be more likely to accept their judgments.
Agree 100%.
#2. To: Pinguinite (#1)
#3. To: TooConservative (#0)
"The suspect has his hands raised but seems to drop his hands, maybe reaching for his waistband, just before (or as) the shots ring out."
#4. To: TooConservative (#0)
"The deputies who fired have been identified as Greg Vasquez and Robert Sanchez."
#5. To: misterwhite, GrandIsland (#3)
But given the distance (and the speed of sound), it's a toss up.
#6. To: misterwhite (#4)
There were two shots, so they're saying each deputy fired one. Meaning both deputies decided, simultaneously, to execute this guy?
#7. To: TooConservative (#5)
"Something about the way the guy dropped his hands made it look like his hands were going to his waistband."
#8. To: misterwhite (#7)
Even with the video, it's hard to draw a firm conclusion.
#9. To: TooConservative (#8)
"And it changes nothing if he didn't have a concealed weapon in his waistband. You just don't make any sudden suspicious moves of any kind after the cop says "you're under arrest".
#10. To: TooConservative (#6)
#11. To: TooConservative (#5)
Obviously, I was focused on that tenth of a second. Usually in these cop-shoots-little-old-Sunday-school-teacher stories, the video is 50 yards or less. But this distance starts to raise questions about the speed of sound and audio/video sync on some crappy cellphone. To me, that starts to look a lot like reasonable doubt in any trial of the two cops. We may get more video from the cops or their cars that will make the circumstances clearer.
#12. To: GrandIsland (#10)
Yes it does... that's why one of the four primary firearm safety rules is... Trigger finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
#13. To: Pinguinite (#11)
Given the speed of sound / delay, if there were no sync issues with the phone recording, then he was shot before the shots were heard on the video, not after.
But the DA said he has much better video he's not showing yet, likely from the cops cars or body cams that should clear up the matter. From what he says, it seems the cops are in deep do-do.
#14. To: TooConservative (#13)
There is too much conflict of interest to expect a working prosecutor to be even-handed in prosecuting his own police force for misconduct. And I think the public would trust an independent panel more and be more likely to accept their judgments.
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