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Title: Kentucky clerk still won't issue same-sex marriage licenses
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... AULT&CTIME=2015-09-01-08-52-48
Published: Sep 1, 2015
Author: Claire Valofaro
Post Date: 2015-09-01 10:04:38 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 36196
Comments: 339
A county clerk in Kentucky has again refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, invoking her religious beliefs and "God's authority" - this time in defiance of a U.S. Supreme Court ruling against her. On Tuesday morning, Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis' office denied the licenses to at least two couples. At first, Davis was in her office with the door closed and blinds drawn. But she emerged a few minutes later, telling the couples and the activists gathered there that her office is continuing to deny the licenses "under God's authority." The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday declined to intervene in the case, leaving Davis no legal grounds to refuse to grant the licenses. A district judge could now hold her in contempt of court, which can carry steep fines or jail time. As an elected official, Davis can't be fired. Davis asked David Moore and David Ermold to leave her office after they were denied a license Tuesday morning - the couple's fourth rejection. They refused, surrounded by reporters and cameras. "We're not leaving until we have a license," Ermold said. "Then you're going to have a long day," Davis told him. From the back of the room, Davis' supporters said: "Praise the Lord! ... Stand your ground." Other activists shouted that Davis is a bigot and told her: "Do your job." Davis has said her deeply held Christian beliefs don't let her endorse gay marriages. She stopped issuing all marriage licenses in the days after the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage across the nation. Two gay couples and two straight couples sued her, arguing that she must fulfill her duties as an elected official despite her personal religious faith. A federal judge ordered her to issue the licenses, and an appeals court upheld that decision. Her lawyers with the Liberty Counsel filed a last-ditch appeal to the Supreme Court on Friday, asking that they grant her "asylum for her conscience." Justice Elena Kagan, who oversees the 6th district, referred Davis' request to the full court, which denied the stay without comment. After Tuesday's denials, the rejected couples' supporters called the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed the lawsuit on their behalf. They asked that the attorneys file that day to have Davis held in contempt. Shortly after Davis' remarks in her office, the sheriff's office cleared the room and building of those gathered to support both sides of the issue. The two groups lined up on the lawn, on either side of the courthouse entrance to chant at each other. Davis' supporters have told her to "stand firm," while gay-rights activists shouted "do your job." Randy Smith, leading the group supporting Davis, said he knows following their instruction to "stand firm" might mean Davis goes to jail. "But at the end of the day, we have to stand before God, which has higher authority than the Supreme Court," he said. Ermold hugged Moore, his partner of 17 years, and they cried and swayed as they left the clerk's office. Davis' supporters marched by, chanting. "I feel sad, I feel devastated," Ermold said. "I feel like I've been humiliated on such a national level, I can't even comprehend it." 
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#128. To: tpaine (#126)
For who? To do what?
Most likely the Head Homeboi at the alleged Justice Department. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
It may be 'time', in the Claire Wolf sense... "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." - Claire Wolf
Yep. Our elected and unelected officials ignore laws daily. "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
It's counterintuitive to our basic principles that when a constitutional issue is being raised, that a judge can jail the opposition for contempt.. Yep, that's one of the reasons we declared our independence from despots that use "equity" to ignore our inalienable rights. Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers...
She can't be fired. She is an elected official. The only way to remove her is to impeach her in the Kentucky House of Representatives and convict her in the Senate. I heard (have not confirmed) the KY legislature was out of session and there were no plans at this time to recall them. http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/IB176.pdf IMPEACHMENT IN KENTUCKY
Contempt of court.
The clergy can conduct a marriage ceremony for anyone. Try to find one who will do it without a marriage license. I am sure that there are plenty that will. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Trouble is, whether it's Shakespeare or Claire Wolf, it's easy to talk about killing, but when it comes down to it, very few are willing to actually do that (thank God). Jefferson, that old felon, wrote truthfully when he said in the Declaration that people are apt to suffer wrongs as long as they're sufferable. People are wise to do so, because when it gets to the actual killin', that rapidly turns into the killin' AND DYIN' part, and most folks who are keen on "stringing the bastards up" are less keen on being front rank troops in the effort, because the front rank of such movements has a 90% or so death rate. Truth is, hardly anybody in America is willing to die for some abstract concept of "the Constitution". The "Claire Wolf" moment isn't going to come, at least not from white constitutionalists. My suggestion? Stop focusing on toy law and focus on real Law, which is God's law. It's shorter, has fewer procedures, and doesn't need anybody's assent. And the favors that come from following it often come fast.
Try to find one online.
The deputies could only do it if she authorized them, which brings about the same religious argument. She declined the offer. The deputies will not be issuing any licenses, at least for now.
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so. She refused. The only way to remove her is impeachment in the KY House and trial in the Senate.
I am sure that there are plenty that will. Try to find one online. Why should that matter? The Sacrament of Mariage is not a private thing. The Catholic Church announes the bands of marriage for several months before the actual ceremony, or it used to. There is no requirement that the Sacrament of Marriage also be something that satisfies the state's requirement for a state licensed marriage. Besides, why would a couple go to the internet to find a priest that they do not know and does not know them, in a parish in which they do not live, to administer the Sacrament of Marriage to them? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
How do you know that? Aren't the deputies agents of the state, not deputies of the Clerk? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
What is her crime? Then let the trial begin... Just as you posted earlier : ---
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
http://supreme.justia.com/us/149/304/case.html In Nix v. Hedden, U.S. 304 (1893), SCOTUS ruled, "Tomatoes are 'vegetables,' and not 'fruit,' within the meaning of the Tariff Act of March 3, 1883, c. 121." The laws of nature do not apply to SCOTUS.
Yep, that's one of the reasons we declared our independence from despots that use "equity" to ignore our inalienable rights. Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers... Tell that to the millions of men that have died in America's wars, defending our freedoms. Thanks for displaying your true stripe once again, vicomte. It's refreshing to see a man tell the honest truth about himself, despite the fact that it is repugnant..
I believe only she holds the elected authority and she has refused an offer of release this afternoon conditioned upon her delegating her authority. Five deputies indicated they were agreeable to issuing licenses, the sixth declined (her daughter I believe). http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/02/qa-ky-clerk-gay-marriage-license-case/71567812/ Andrew Wolfson, [...] Question: Why hasn’t Kim Davis been fired for refusing to issue marriage licenses and defying court orders? Answer: She is an elected official and can only be removed from office for impeachment. Q: How would she be impeached? A: The Kentucky House of Representatives would have to charge her with an impeachable offense and the Senate would then try her. Q: Is that likely? A: The Kentucky Equality Federation, a gay rights group, has called for Gov. Steve Beshear to call a special session of the General Assembly to pursue impeachment. But Beshear, citing costs, has already declined to convene a special session to consider emergency legislation that would accommodate Davis and other clerks by having state government issue marriage licenses. Also, Bluegrass Polls show most Kentucky voters oppose gay marriage and support accommodating Davis. Beshear declined to comment Tuesday. The above seems to confirm what I heard that the legislature was not in session and the governor has no current plans to recall them. It appears to me that the KY government is "innocently" resisting the Federal government and is slow walking this. It may be a while.
I have a very good friend that is a deputy town clerk inside the jurisdiction I policed. I'm also very good friends with the elected clerk. It was told to me that the deputy clerk is sworn in by the clear k with the same powers the clerk has in the clerks absence and acts as the elected clerk in her absence... period. The clerk is absent. What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year? I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
It states that the source of all power of the Counties and county offices exist and operate only under auhtority delegated by the state. One of the required officers of counties in Kentucky is the County Clerk. The County Clerk cannot make up the rules of his/her duties and responsibilities. Perhaps you know the legal basis for how the Clerk can prevent the Deputy Clerks for conducting the legal business of the Office which authority is delegated to the Clerk's Office by the state? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
That is how many government offices and private corporations work. There must be an official delegation of authority, either statutory or via bylaws or the equivalent, to cover absences of the normally apapropriately delegated person for the conduct of business to be valid. These things are not left to chance. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
There have been NO licenses being issued since the SCOTUS decision. Not same sex or opposite sex. None whatever. It appears the deputies lack authority. Possibly Davis revoked any delegation of authority, if it existed. The misconduct at this time is not performing the duties of the office. If she were to issue opposite sex licenses and not same sex licenses, then she might be charged with a crime.
Deputies get their authority by delegation from the elected official. The authority is delegated to the elected official, not the general office. If she does not grant, or withdraws delegation of authority, they do not have it. The office has been issuing NO licenses whatever since the SCOTUS decision.
That's my understanding. I'm thinking her deputy clerk and the other clerks decided to stand behind their boss and unite... off the record. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent? I believe only she holds the elected authority...... She holds the elected office. She does not own the authority delegated to the office by the state, that belongs to the office not the individual to do with as she pleases. She is clearly refusing to personally execise the authority delegated to the office by the state based on her personal religious beliefs. I find it difficult to believe that she can legally prevent her deputies from exercising the authority of the office, especially in her absence. I am sure that there is controlling law on this subject. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Authorizing her subordinate a license with her name on it raises the same moral question, and she has declined. Non-elected officials can be fired or suspended and replaced. I don't think the state is fighting what she is doing. Think of this politically if she remains in jail for a few months or more.
I believe that you are wrong (see post 149). This is the link to the pdf www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/ib114.pdf. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Cops have no clear guiding principal other than a doughnut & Kup o' Koffe. 'Tis kinda kool to see you vacillating your earlier comments into the "unknown zone."
It belongs to an elected individual and cannot just be bestowed to an unelected official not holding the office of County Clerk. She can prevent her deputies from exercising the authority of her elected office of County Clerk by not delegating her authority to them, or by revoking an existing delegation of authority. Davis is the County Clerk and nobody else. The governor could recall congress and impeach her tomorrow, if they chose to do so.
I'm not flip flopping on anything... I merely point out the things you're to ignorant to think on your own... from both sides. I haven't even stated my opinion on this... other than I don't feel bad for the faggots. I know you and Commie Sanders feels bad for the faggots. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Then why would the deputies agree to issue the licenses if she has declined to do so? She would be a hypocrite if she had the ability to prevent her deputies from issuing license and didn't use it. It doesn't matter if the state is not fighting what she is doing, these are precedent setting events which will have many unintended consequences for the state one way or the other. Read page 74 of the link I provided, Liability For Deputies (of the Office of Clerk). потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Please read the link that I provided you, especially page 74. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
The authority belongs to Kim Davis as the elected County Clerk. No deputy has any authority except as delegated by Kim Davis, the County Clerk. The authority is not given to the county clerk's office, it is given to the County Clerk, the elected official. Then the elected official can delegate the authority to subordinates. Or not. She has a job to do. She is not doing it. She claims a new obligation (issuance of same sex marriage licenses) violates her faith based moral convictions. The Feds can order such licenses be issued, but cannot issue them, and cannot force her to issue them, but can penalize her for refusing to issue them. So, she sits in jail. As long as she chooses to sit in jail, and the state does not act to remove her from office, one may view a big middle finger going from Kentucky to Washington, D.C. If it goes on for a few months, what does the Fed do? Can they order the state to call a special session of the state congress?
If the duputies issue the licenses as they appear to have agreed to do, then the Fed doesn't have to do anything at all - other than perhaps give Davis the finger as she rots in jail. This is not a win situation for her, even if the state is passively on her side. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/ib114.pdf Duties of Elected County Officials Legislative Research Commission At 53: County Clerk Kentucky’s Constitution of 1850 was the first to mention the office of county court clerk, providing for a clerk’s election in each county for a term of 4 years (Art. VI, sec. 1). The current constitution requires the election of a county court clerk in each county for a term of 4 years (Ky. Const., sec. 99). Before the institution of the unified state court system, the county court clerk served as the clerk of the juvenile, county, and quarterly courts. Since the time when the District Court replaced these courts, the clerk has no longer had judicial duties, and the name of the office has been abbreviated to county clerk to more accurately reflect the nature of the office. The duties of the county clerk fall into the general categories of clerical duties of the fiscal court: issuing and registering, recording and keeping various legal records, registering and purging voter rolls, conducting election duties, and conducting tax duties. At 74: KRS 62.210 makes the office of the county clerk, rather than the individual officeholder, liable for the acts or omissions of deputy clerks. A deputy is liable to the clerk for damages and costs for any acts or omissions discharged by the clerk. Black's Law Dictionary I see nothing relevant regarding the liability for the deputies. The office of the county clerk is liable, and not the County Clerk personally, for damages due to the acts or omissions of the deputies. The County Clerk defines what acts the deputies are authorized and obligated to discharge. If she does not authorize her deputies to issue marriage licenses, and they do not issue marriage licenses, they are not liable for any omission by non-performance. The deputies derive their authority by being duty authorized by an officer, in this case the County Clerk, to exercise some or all of the functions pertaining to the office, in this case the office of the County Clerk. Davis has chosen to not authorize her deputies to issue marriage licenses. Without her authorization, they do not have authorization. She was elected by the people and authorized by the people to exercise the duties of the office of County Clerk.
I'm thinking the sodomite couple would have found a different jurisdiction to get a license if a Muslim or Jew refused them. This was direct action against a known target. "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
Without a delegation of authority by the County Clerk, the deputies have no lawful authority to issue the licenses in the name of the Clerk. The deputies stated they would. The court offered to set Davis free if she would delegate her authority and do nothing to interfere with the deputies issuing licenses. Davis refused. That's why she remains in jail tonight. And why there will be no licenses issued tomorrow, unless Davis changes her mind.
Of course, if getting married was their priority, they would go to a clerk who would issue them a license. And I'm thinking KY authorities are in support of Davis and are in no hurry to do anything. Think Andrew Jackson. The Supreme Court made its decision. Now let them enforce it. Impeachment certainly won't begin until the KY congress is called back into session.
Comments (168 - 339) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latestt may be 'time', in the Claire Wolf sense...
#129. To: tpaine (#126)
Who in hell in the executive branch authorized US Marshals to enforce a questionable civil contempt decree from the judicial branch?
#130. To: tpaine (#114)
It's counterintuitive to our basic principles that when a constitutional issue is being raised, that a judge can jail the opposition for contempt..
#131. To: Vicomte13 (#128)
For who? To do what?
#132. To: Stoner (#87)
Okaaaay. If we are going to have this situation, I say we go after the President & Congress for the laws they violate or ignore; all the bureaucrats that ignore or violate laws; all of the city officials that operate "sanctuary cities", all the people at Planned Parenthood that sell baby parts, and a lot of other "law breakers". Yes, lets apply the law evenly, and with the same amount of enthusiasm.
#133. To: Vicomte13 (#130)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
#134. To: Justified (#83)
Yes. She should be fired, by the people or be removed from office by local government but not jailed.
Legislative Research Commission, Frankfort, KY
#135. To: tpaine, Pinguinite, Vicomte, nolu chan (#85)
What is her crime?
#136. To: Vicomte13 (#127)
#137. To: tpaine (#133)
Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers...
#138. To: SOSO (#136)
I am sure that there are plenty that will.
#139. To: SOSO (#102)
A defiant county clerk went to jail Thursday for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, but five of her deputies agreed to issue the licenses themselves, potentially ending the church-state standoff in Rowan County, Kentucky.
#140. To: GrandIsland, SOSO (#105)
This was inevitable... there is always someone willing to shit on you, for personal gain.
#141. To: Vicomte13, snekypete (#138)
#142. To: nolu chan (#139)
The deputies could only do it if she authorized them.................
#143. To: nolu chan (#135)
Contempt of court.
CONTEMPTS - 18 U.S.C. § 3691 (2012) §3691. Jury trial of criminal contempts
Whenever a contempt charged shall consist in willful disobedience of any lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command of any district court of the United States by doing or omitting any act or thing in violation thereof, and the act or thing done or omitted also constitutes a criminal offense under any Act of Congress, or under the laws of any state in which it was done or omitted, the accused, upon demand therefor, shall be entitled to trial by a jury, which shall conform as near as may be to the practice in other criminal cases.
#144. To: nolu chan (#140)
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so.
#145. To: Vicomte13 (#112)
Truth is, marriage is defined by God as being between a man and a woman deciding to couple for life, and then having sex.
#146. To: Vicomte13 (#137)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
Trouble is, whether it's Shakespeare or Claire Wolf, it's easy to talk about killing, but when it comes down to it, very few are willing to actually do that (thank God).
#147. To: SOSO (#144)
(Edited)
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent?
Q&A: Why hasn't Ky. clerk been fired in gay marriage license case?
The (Louisville, Ky.) Courier-Journal
8:07 p.m. EDT September 2, 2015
#148. To: nolu chan (#140)
#149. To: nolu chan, GrandIsland (#140)
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so.
#150. To: GrandIsland, nolu chan (#148)
What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year?
#151. To: GrandIsland (#148)
What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year?
#152. To: SOSO, GrandIsland (#149)
Perhaps you know the legal basis for how the Clerk can prevent the Deputy Clerks for conducting the legal business of the Office which authority is delegated to the Clerk's Office by the state?
#153. To: SOSO (#150)
That is how many government offices and private corporations work. There must be an official delegation of authority, either statutory or via bylaws or the equivalent, to cover absences of the normally apapropriately delegated person for the conduct of business to be valid. These things are not left to chance.
#154. To: nolu chan (#147)
#155. To: SOSO, GrandIsland (#150)
There must be an official delegation of authority, either statutory or via bylaws or the equivalent, to cover absences of the normally apapropriately delegated person for the conduct of business to be valid.
#156. To: nolu chan, GrandIsland (#152)
The authority is delegated to the elected official, not the general office.
#157. To: GrandIsland (#153)
I'm thinking her deputy clerk and the other clerks decided to stand behind their boss and unite... off the record.
#158. To: SOSO (#154)
She does not own the authority delegated to the office by the state, that belongs to the office not the individual to do with as she pleases.
#159. To: buckeroo (#157)
#160. To: nolu chan (#155)
Authorizing her subordinate a license with her name on it raises the same moral question, and she has declined. Non-elected officials can be fired or suspended and replaced. I don't think the state is fighting what she is doing. Think of this politically if she remains in jail for a few months or more.
#161. To: nolu chan (#158)
It belongs to an elected individual and cannot just be bestowed to an unelected official not holding the office of County Clerk.
#162. To: SOSO (#156)
I believe that you are wrong (see post 149).
#163. To: nolu chan (#162)
If it goes on for a few months, what does the Fed do?
#164. To: SOSO (#161)
Please read the link that I provided you, especially page 74.
Information Bulletin No. 114
Frankfort, KY
August 2014 Chapter 5
Liability For Deputies
Deputy. A substitute; a person duly authorized by an officer to exercise some or all of the functions pertaining to the office, in the place and stead of the latter. One appointed to substitute for another with power to act for him in his name or behalf. A substitute for another and is empowered to act for him in his name and behalf in all matters in which principal may act. Williams v. Ferrentino, Fla.App., 199 So.2d 504, 511.
#165. To: nolu chan (#162)
#166. To: SOSO (#163)
If the duputies issue the licenses as they appear to have agreed to do
#167. To: redleghunter (#165)
I'm thinking the sodomite couple would have found a different jurisdiction to get a license if a Muslim or Jew refused them.
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