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Title: Kentucky clerk still won't issue same-sex marriage licenses
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie ... AULT&CTIME=2015-09-01-08-52-48
Published: Sep 1, 2015
Author: Claire Valofaro
Post Date: 2015-09-01 10:04:38 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 36029
Comments: 339
A county clerk in Kentucky has again refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, invoking her religious beliefs and "God's authority" - this time in defiance of a U.S. Supreme Court ruling against her. On Tuesday morning, Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis' office denied the licenses to at least two couples. At first, Davis was in her office with the door closed and blinds drawn. But she emerged a few minutes later, telling the couples and the activists gathered there that her office is continuing to deny the licenses "under God's authority." The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday declined to intervene in the case, leaving Davis no legal grounds to refuse to grant the licenses. A district judge could now hold her in contempt of court, which can carry steep fines or jail time. As an elected official, Davis can't be fired. Davis asked David Moore and David Ermold to leave her office after they were denied a license Tuesday morning - the couple's fourth rejection. They refused, surrounded by reporters and cameras. "We're not leaving until we have a license," Ermold said. "Then you're going to have a long day," Davis told him. From the back of the room, Davis' supporters said: "Praise the Lord! ... Stand your ground." Other activists shouted that Davis is a bigot and told her: "Do your job." Davis has said her deeply held Christian beliefs don't let her endorse gay marriages. She stopped issuing all marriage licenses in the days after the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage across the nation. Two gay couples and two straight couples sued her, arguing that she must fulfill her duties as an elected official despite her personal religious faith. A federal judge ordered her to issue the licenses, and an appeals court upheld that decision. Her lawyers with the Liberty Counsel filed a last-ditch appeal to the Supreme Court on Friday, asking that they grant her "asylum for her conscience." Justice Elena Kagan, who oversees the 6th district, referred Davis' request to the full court, which denied the stay without comment. After Tuesday's denials, the rejected couples' supporters called the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed the lawsuit on their behalf. They asked that the attorneys file that day to have Davis held in contempt. Shortly after Davis' remarks in her office, the sheriff's office cleared the room and building of those gathered to support both sides of the issue. The two groups lined up on the lawn, on either side of the courthouse entrance to chant at each other. Davis' supporters have told her to "stand firm," while gay-rights activists shouted "do your job." Randy Smith, leading the group supporting Davis, said he knows following their instruction to "stand firm" might mean Davis goes to jail. "But at the end of the day, we have to stand before God, which has higher authority than the Supreme Court," he said. Ermold hugged Moore, his partner of 17 years, and they cried and swayed as they left the clerk's office. Davis' supporters marched by, chanting. "I feel sad, I feel devastated," Ermold said. "I feel like I've been humiliated on such a national level, I can't even comprehend it." 
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#114. To: Vicomte13 (#112)
It's counterintuitive to our basic principles that when a constitutional issue is being raised, that a judge can jail the opposition for contempt.. We know that. Why do you support that arguably cowardly act? And, why do you support the alleged power of a judge to jail opponents for 'civil contempt' -- without a trial ? Then why did you answer in support of the Supremes? You're not being truthful, old boy.. Why is that ?
Very true. It's the old "divide and conquer" principle put into motion. Too much of that "reasoning stuff" starts going on,and pretty soon we would all be looking at what the gubbermint does to us and focus on that more than what we do to each other. The professional pols and their paymasters just couldn't stand that kind of heat. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Most likely. And many I am sure will rejoice. After all, she violated The Law, and she ignored a FEDERAL JUDGE. She is lucky she did not get the firing squad. Screw the feral judge,as well as the horse he rode in on. This,like marriage itself,is a STATE issue,not a federal issue. It would be a federal issue if the state legislature or Governor decided to bar marriage between homosexuals,but this is just a case of a state employee violating her oath of office because any homosexuals who were refused a marriage license by her were free to go to the next town and get one. I have no idea of violating your oath of office is a crime that rates jail time in that state or not,but I think it is irrelevant because I suspect the state is going to satisfy itself to drop that hot potato by just removing her from office and maybe giving her some sort of suspended sentence. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The feds sent in US Marshals to throw her in the klink. So, I think you're wrong here.
The feral government getting involved in a case that is a states rights issue like marriage is Un-Constitional itself. Yes,violating the rights of homosexuals is a federal issue,but IMHO ONLY if the state legislature or the Governor is the one behind it,making it an approved act of the state. One employee out of who knows how many hundreds is no legitimate concern of the feral government. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
You're also a hypocrite. You are delusional. You want special rights for fags because you have lots and lots in your family. You like all commies support the equal rights amendment. You're a foolish old man. As well as being a liar. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Just out of curiouslty,what do you usually pay for that service? Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
The clergy can conduct a marriage ceremony for anyone. However, when they do so without a state license being issued to the couple that ceremony has no weight with the state. Just as some states recognize a marriage without any solemnozation ceremony. "{A} marriage may be solemnized by a judge of a court, a retired judge, a court magistrate, a public official whose powers include solemnization of marriages, a Native-American tribe official, clergy, or you and your intended spouse. Clergy from out-of-state do not need to be registered in Colorado". Of course, the church will not recognize a state licensed and a state or self performed marriage ceremony as a marriage within its faith. Either way, from the state's point of view a church ceremony is vitually meaningless. Those that get their panties in a bunch over gay marriage should understand this. The only significance of a church performed ceremony is to those within the church community. A church perfomed ceremony adds nothing to the civil issued license and recognition of the marriage. ALL state recognized marriages are civil unions, nothing more, nothing less. The state does not recognize any religious, spiritual or sacramental aspects of a church marriage ceremony - all marriages are equal. The church should get out of the business of marriage and into to the business of holy union (preferably with the issue of a state license for the civil union of marriage to assure state recognition of the marriage of the couple). The church then will have no problem in dealing with a state sanctioned civil unions. And no-one can force the church to perform/sanction holy unions to non- members of the church or those that are not members in good standing with the church. It is of no business of the state if a church wishes to grant holy union status to a gay couple or not, polygamists or not, brother and sister, brother and brother, sister and sister, mother and son, etc. "Christians need to simply avoid all of that, shack up for life, be married and act that way, and that is that." Not likely as most states impose/recognize common law marriage. So in the end it still becomes a civil union. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So, I think you're wrong here. Hell,they sent snipers and a freaking tank in at Waco,Texas. That doesn't mean it was the right,or even the legal thing to do. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
I am always truthful. It's just that I really place very little stock in the Constitution, or the law, or the concept of the Rule of Law. Those are just totems and tokens. I am interested in The Law, the REAL law, the one we're all answerable too. Obviously that Law inevitably comes to play through the medium of our laws and courts and all of that, but I don't have a whole lot of patience for the actual inside baseball of our system. I know the rules of our legal system. I know it's a game. I get paid well for playing that game, but I don't believe that the game has virtue. I think it's a rigged casino from the get go, and always was. So, am I SUPPORTING the Supremes? No. I'm just saying what they are going to do, and why, the logic of it, how the game will grind out in its inevitable way. MY view? Christians should stop playing the legal marriage and church marriage game, neither of which are required by or really have anything to do with God's law. Instead, by the hundred milllion strong, Christians should marry, for good, by shacking up for life and saying their are married - because they are. No ceremony, no papers. And then when somebody tries to block them from something, sue. Christian marriage is partnership for life - the approval or licensing from some state entity, for a fee, is irrelevant to marriage, and the whole requirement should be ignored by all Christians. Since the Churches are all morally compromised and have created the false tradition that a church wedding is required, they won't marry without the state's license. Which means that church wedding traditions also need to go: they are false from the get go. A very salutary thing comes from this. By being true to the actual LAW of God, and ceasing to fight over mere traditions, Christians can find themselves much freer than they thought, and in that freedom, find great strength.
Less than you pay for adult diapers. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Common Law marriage is perfect, because the Christian couple doesn't have to DO anything to "get" it. It's just a status that is recognized at a certain point. So, the Christians are true to God's law, and they stop playing the game of paying for a license from the state to do what any couple can do by pleding each other's troth and having sex before God. Nothing more. The Churches, having compromised themselves now should be forced by Christians to either perform weddings without the licenses, or Christians should simply disregard the Churches on the matter. If the Churches want to weaken themselves by becoming lapdog enforces of a state taxing and regulation scheme, Christians should exercise their liberty in God to marry God's way, and ignore the made-up traditions of men. The individuals, of course, should ALWAYS assert their marriage, as a matter of fact, without comment. They ARE married. That the state gets around to admitting that through Common Law is fine, but that's the state's business.
Who in hell in the executive branch authorized US Marshals to enforce a questionable civil contempt decree from the judicial branch? This 'assumption of authority' bullshit is getting serious, sportsfans. It may be 'time', in the Claire Wolf sense...
Try to find one who will do it without a marriage license.
For who? To do what?
Most likely the Head Homeboi at the alleged Justice Department. Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
It may be 'time', in the Claire Wolf sense... "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." - Claire Wolf
Yep. Our elected and unelected officials ignore laws daily. "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
It's counterintuitive to our basic principles that when a constitutional issue is being raised, that a judge can jail the opposition for contempt.. Yep, that's one of the reasons we declared our independence from despots that use "equity" to ignore our inalienable rights. Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers...
She can't be fired. She is an elected official. The only way to remove her is to impeach her in the Kentucky House of Representatives and convict her in the Senate. I heard (have not confirmed) the KY legislature was out of session and there were no plans at this time to recall them. http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/IB176.pdf IMPEACHMENT IN KENTUCKY
Contempt of court.
The clergy can conduct a marriage ceremony for anyone. Try to find one who will do it without a marriage license. I am sure that there are plenty that will. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Trouble is, whether it's Shakespeare or Claire Wolf, it's easy to talk about killing, but when it comes down to it, very few are willing to actually do that (thank God). Jefferson, that old felon, wrote truthfully when he said in the Declaration that people are apt to suffer wrongs as long as they're sufferable. People are wise to do so, because when it gets to the actual killin', that rapidly turns into the killin' AND DYIN' part, and most folks who are keen on "stringing the bastards up" are less keen on being front rank troops in the effort, because the front rank of such movements has a 90% or so death rate. Truth is, hardly anybody in America is willing to die for some abstract concept of "the Constitution". The "Claire Wolf" moment isn't going to come, at least not from white constitutionalists. My suggestion? Stop focusing on toy law and focus on real Law, which is God's law. It's shorter, has fewer procedures, and doesn't need anybody's assent. And the favors that come from following it often come fast.
Try to find one online.
The deputies could only do it if she authorized them, which brings about the same religious argument. She declined the offer. The deputies will not be issuing any licenses, at least for now.
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so. She refused. The only way to remove her is impeachment in the KY House and trial in the Senate.
I am sure that there are plenty that will. Try to find one online. Why should that matter? The Sacrament of Mariage is not a private thing. The Catholic Church announes the bands of marriage for several months before the actual ceremony, or it used to. There is no requirement that the Sacrament of Marriage also be something that satisfies the state's requirement for a state licensed marriage. Besides, why would a couple go to the internet to find a priest that they do not know and does not know them, in a parish in which they do not live, to administer the Sacrament of Marriage to them? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
How do you know that? Aren't the deputies agents of the state, not deputies of the Clerk? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
What is her crime? Then let the trial begin... Just as you posted earlier : ---
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
http://supreme.justia.com/us/149/304/case.html In Nix v. Hedden, U.S. 304 (1893), SCOTUS ruled, "Tomatoes are 'vegetables,' and not 'fruit,' within the meaning of the Tariff Act of March 3, 1883, c. 121." The laws of nature do not apply to SCOTUS.
Yep, that's one of the reasons we declared our independence from despots that use "equity" to ignore our inalienable rights. Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers... Tell that to the millions of men that have died in America's wars, defending our freedoms. Thanks for displaying your true stripe once again, vicomte. It's refreshing to see a man tell the honest truth about himself, despite the fact that it is repugnant..
I believe only she holds the elected authority and she has refused an offer of release this afternoon conditioned upon her delegating her authority. Five deputies indicated they were agreeable to issuing licenses, the sixth declined (her daughter I believe). http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/02/qa-ky-clerk-gay-marriage-license-case/71567812/ Andrew Wolfson, [...] Question: Why hasn’t Kim Davis been fired for refusing to issue marriage licenses and defying court orders? Answer: She is an elected official and can only be removed from office for impeachment. Q: How would she be impeached? A: The Kentucky House of Representatives would have to charge her with an impeachable offense and the Senate would then try her. Q: Is that likely? A: The Kentucky Equality Federation, a gay rights group, has called for Gov. Steve Beshear to call a special session of the General Assembly to pursue impeachment. But Beshear, citing costs, has already declined to convene a special session to consider emergency legislation that would accommodate Davis and other clerks by having state government issue marriage licenses. Also, Bluegrass Polls show most Kentucky voters oppose gay marriage and support accommodating Davis. Beshear declined to comment Tuesday. The above seems to confirm what I heard that the legislature was not in session and the governor has no current plans to recall them. It appears to me that the KY government is "innocently" resisting the Federal government and is slow walking this. It may be a while.
I have a very good friend that is a deputy town clerk inside the jurisdiction I policed. I'm also very good friends with the elected clerk. It was told to me that the deputy clerk is sworn in by the clear k with the same powers the clerk has in the clerks absence and acts as the elected clerk in her absence... period. The clerk is absent. What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year? I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
It states that the source of all power of the Counties and county offices exist and operate only under auhtority delegated by the state. One of the required officers of counties in Kentucky is the County Clerk. The County Clerk cannot make up the rules of his/her duties and responsibilities. Perhaps you know the legal basis for how the Clerk can prevent the Deputy Clerks for conducting the legal business of the Office which authority is delegated to the Clerk's Office by the state? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
That is how many government offices and private corporations work. There must be an official delegation of authority, either statutory or via bylaws or the equivalent, to cover absences of the normally apapropriately delegated person for the conduct of business to be valid. These things are not left to chance. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
There have been NO licenses being issued since the SCOTUS decision. Not same sex or opposite sex. None whatever. It appears the deputies lack authority. Possibly Davis revoked any delegation of authority, if it existed. The misconduct at this time is not performing the duties of the office. If she were to issue opposite sex licenses and not same sex licenses, then she might be charged with a crime.
Deputies get their authority by delegation from the elected official. The authority is delegated to the elected official, not the general office. If she does not grant, or withdraws delegation of authority, they do not have it. The office has been issuing NO licenses whatever since the SCOTUS decision.
That's my understanding. I'm thinking her deputy clerk and the other clerks decided to stand behind their boss and unite... off the record. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent? I believe only she holds the elected authority...... She holds the elected office. She does not own the authority delegated to the office by the state, that belongs to the office not the individual to do with as she pleases. She is clearly refusing to personally execise the authority delegated to the office by the state based on her personal religious beliefs. I find it difficult to believe that she can legally prevent her deputies from exercising the authority of the office, especially in her absence. I am sure that there is controlling law on this subject. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Comments (155 - 339) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest The did. The Supreme Court declined to hear the case.
Support it? I think the whole circus is irrelevant.
#115. To: Dead Culture Watch (#84)
The death of a wedge issue is never good for the ruling class.
#116. To: Stoner (#87)
This woman will be crucified in two weeks. Count on it. "
#117. To: sneakypete (#116)
This,like marriage itself,is a STATE issue,not a federal issue.
#118. To: A K A Stone (#96)
They are forcing a religious test on her which is unconstitutional.
#119. To: A K A Stone (#97)
Yes you are sneaky.
#120. To: GrandIsland (#105)
This was inevitable... there is always someone willing to shit on you, for personal gain.
#121. To: Vicomte13 (#112)
The clergy won't marry anybody without the state's license, because that's "against the law" and they don't want to lose their tax exempt status.
#122. To: Fred Mertz (#117)
The feds sent in US Marshals to throw her in the klink.
#123. To: tpaine (#114)
#124. To: sneakypete (#120)
Just out of curiouslty,what do you usually pay for that service?
#125. To: SOSO (#121)
Not likely as most states impose/recognize common law marriage. So in the end it still becomes a civil union.
#126. To: Fred Mertz, Y'ALL (#117)
The feds sent in US Marshals to throw her in the klink.
#127. To: SOSO (#121)
The clergy can conduct a marriage ceremony for anyone.
#128. To: tpaine (#126)
t may be 'time', in the Claire Wolf sense...
#129. To: tpaine (#126)
Who in hell in the executive branch authorized US Marshals to enforce a questionable civil contempt decree from the judicial branch?
#130. To: tpaine (#114)
It's counterintuitive to our basic principles that when a constitutional issue is being raised, that a judge can jail the opposition for contempt..
#131. To: Vicomte13 (#128)
For who? To do what?
#132. To: Stoner (#87)
Okaaaay. If we are going to have this situation, I say we go after the President & Congress for the laws they violate or ignore; all the bureaucrats that ignore or violate laws; all of the city officials that operate "sanctuary cities", all the people at Planned Parenthood that sell baby parts, and a lot of other "law breakers". Yes, lets apply the law evenly, and with the same amount of enthusiasm.
#133. To: Vicomte13 (#130)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
#134. To: Justified (#83)
Yes. She should be fired, by the people or be removed from office by local government but not jailed.
Legislative Research Commission, Frankfort, KY
#135. To: tpaine, Pinguinite, Vicomte, nolu chan (#85)
What is her crime?
#136. To: Vicomte13 (#127)
#137. To: tpaine (#133)
Shakespeare was right. First, we should kill all the (fascistic) lawyers...
#138. To: SOSO (#136)
I am sure that there are plenty that will.
#139. To: SOSO (#102)
A defiant county clerk went to jail Thursday for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, but five of her deputies agreed to issue the licenses themselves, potentially ending the church-state standoff in Rowan County, Kentucky.
#140. To: GrandIsland, SOSO (#105)
This was inevitable... there is always someone willing to shit on you, for personal gain.
#141. To: Vicomte13, snekypete (#138)
#142. To: nolu chan (#139)
The deputies could only do it if she authorized them.................
#143. To: nolu chan (#135)
Contempt of court.
CONTEMPTS - 18 U.S.C. § 3691 (2012) §3691. Jury trial of criminal contempts
Whenever a contempt charged shall consist in willful disobedience of any lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command of any district court of the United States by doing or omitting any act or thing in violation thereof, and the act or thing done or omitted also constitutes a criminal offense under any Act of Congress, or under the laws of any state in which it was done or omitted, the accused, upon demand therefor, shall be entitled to trial by a jury, which shall conform as near as may be to the practice in other criminal cases.
#144. To: nolu chan (#140)
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so.
#145. To: Vicomte13 (#112)
Truth is, marriage is defined by God as being between a man and a woman deciding to couple for life, and then having sex.
#146. To: Vicomte13 (#137)
Contempt is a matter of equity, not law. When the judge issues and order, he intends to be obeyed. When somebody defies him, he throws that person in jail. There are no further proceedings, or trial, or anything, until the jailed person obeys the judge. That's equity for you. Always has been that way.
Trouble is, whether it's Shakespeare or Claire Wolf, it's easy to talk about killing, but when it comes down to it, very few are willing to actually do that (thank God).
#147. To: SOSO (#144)
(Edited)
Doesn't that depend on the County's regulations and/or bylaws or equivalent?
Q&A: Why hasn't Ky. clerk been fired in gay marriage license case?
The (Louisville, Ky.) Courier-Journal
8:07 p.m. EDT September 2, 2015
#148. To: nolu chan (#140)
#149. To: nolu chan, GrandIsland (#140)
Only Davis has the authority. The deputies cannot act unless Davis delegates to them the authority to do so.
#150. To: GrandIsland, nolu chan (#148)
What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year?
#151. To: GrandIsland (#148)
What does this clerk do when she's on vacation, calls in sick or is away from the office, delicate authority before she leaves and recinds it when she returns a few thousand times a year?
#152. To: SOSO, GrandIsland (#149)
Perhaps you know the legal basis for how the Clerk can prevent the Deputy Clerks for conducting the legal business of the Office which authority is delegated to the Clerk's Office by the state?
#153. To: SOSO (#150)
That is how many government offices and private corporations work. There must be an official delegation of authority, either statutory or via bylaws or the equivalent, to cover absences of the normally apapropriately delegated person for the conduct of business to be valid. These things are not left to chance.
#154. To: nolu chan (#147)
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