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Title: Mommy
Source:
www.ChristianPatriot.com
URL Source: http://www.christianpatriot.com/mommy.htm
Published: Aug 20, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-08-20 08:45:35 by BobCeleste
Keywords: ACP
Views: 3525
Comments: 23
Mommy keep me safe, I'm only six weeks old today, Where are we going mommy, What's happening mommy, Bye mommy
by "Rachel Burns"
Mommy keep me warm,
Handle me with all your love,
Mommy keep me from harm.
This birthday gift to me,
A pair of bright blue eyes,
That someday you will see.
I've barely got ears,
A little puppy nose,
and at the end of my feet,
Little things called toes.
Looking forward to my life,
toys, teddy bears, snails,
and long fairy tales.
in a bath, on a bus ride or,
perhaps far away.
Where are we going being pushed
at all force.
How funny it feels passing through
doors,
people dressed in green,
if they hurt you mommy just scream.
I'm starting to cry,
Mommy come quickly,
they're making me die,
Killing me slowly,
Pulling me apart,
everything inside of me
even my heart,
Bye mommy, good-bye
But how I wanted to see
the grass, the trees,
hear a sweet song,
feel a sweet breeze.
good-bye
I love you
I really do
.
.
.
.
I just wish you could have loved me too.
No, it's not a choice,
it is a baby!
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 22.
#1. To: BobCeleste, liberator, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, Chuck_Wagon, Don, out damned spot, cranky (#0)
Thank you Bob. How sad. Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ.
Some, not all, but some.
Some, not all, but some. Only some? Why not all? They are all completely innocent, having committed no sin.
read John 3:1-21.
If you are taking that "no one" to include unborn babies, then every aborted baby cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because unbaptized and not begotten anew. This was the classic "Limbo" situation. On the one hand, babies are without sin, and those without sin are not judged. On the other hand, no one who is not begotten anew of water and spirit can enter the kingdom. So, is a newborn, or not-yet-born, baby included in this "anyone"? If the doctrine of Original Sin is true, then that's precisely what it means: until the child is baptized, although he has COMMITTED no sin, nevertheless he is in sin - Original Sin - and because unbaptized by water, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hence the urgency to baptize babies as soon as possible, so they do not die with original sin upon them. Indeed, if one views it that way, one would practically want to baptize a baby in the birthing room, just to be sure. That is, if God is a legalist. If God is not a legalist, then the "everyone" and "anyone" to which Jesus was referring when speaking to Nicodemus really means anybody who could hear or understand the need for being begotten anew and baptism. Whichever way one goes, it's all or nothing. No unborn baby who is aborted CAN be baptized in water and begotten anew - it's too late for that. So the question becomes whether what Jesus said in John 3:1-21 applies to them or not. If it does, then none goes to heaven. If it doesn't, they all do, in innocence. Likewise, Paul says that "all have sinned", but that is not true - unborn babies have not sinned...unless original sin exists and is counted as sin. In which case it is imperative to baptize newborn babies, and the refusal to do so means depriving newborns who die a crib death of eternal life. I think the answer is obvious from the rest of Scripture, which makes it abundantly clear that Jesus will judge people by their ACTS, and that ending up in the lake of fire or the City of God depends on what you DO during life. That is abundantly clear from passage after passage. BUT, contra, there is what Jesus said to Nicodemus, which if taken literally means that there is no hope for ANY unborn baby. There is a direct and violent conflict in Scripture on this matter. You have to decide for yourself. In my view, the multitude of places that Jesus says that men are judged by their deeds are overwhelming, and fit in with the pattern of justice and mercy of God in both Testaments. The absolute and half ritualistic apparent requirement in John 3 should be, I think, read in such a way that doesn't nullify all of the rest of what Jesus said. The conflict is an absolute one. One really does have to choose. Either all of those babies are with God, or none of them are.
Now, before you argue, try to learn. Now read about Predestinated, foreknew and most important when God wrote the names of those who are in the Book of Life in the Book of Life. And you will understand "some, but not all".
That form of predestination erases free will and renders everything else Jesus said a nullity. Jesus spoke throughout about ideal acts and being judged by deeds, and he spoke as a man encouraging people who could choose to make a change, not as a man going through verbal motions before a bunch of automata without will. Unborn babies cannot do any deeds, and they cannot sin. For God to "predestine" some of those - whom he slated for death in an uncaring womb - to hellfire would be in contradiction to everything Jesus said about deeds, and about the angels of innocents. It would reduce God to a monster, really. Yes, the contradiction is there. And it is along these lines, really, that Christianity breaks into two very distinct theologies: the Calvinist, which you are espousing and which some lines of Paul suggest, and the Catholic, which Jesus and I espouse. It's a horrific division, and it cannot be papered over because Scripture goes both ways. So it comes to a matter of authority. Paul is the strongest authority for your view, in some of the things he said. Jesus is the strongest for mine. Jump ball. I say that Jesus was God, and Paul was not, so Jesus always trumps. You say "every word" and thereby make Jesus and Paul equals in Scripture. I say that Jesus spoke last, and in those final words he said, he said judgment was based on acts and deeds. And I think that the combination of being God and speaking last wins the day - before my eyes. I acknowledge that this tension is definitely IN Scripture. It's not made up. But I think that the answer to the contradiction lies in the relative authority of pieces of Scripture, and God trumps men, and what God spoke directly himself, and spoke latest, has the highest authority. Jesus spoke last, in Heaven itself, and he said judgment is based on deeds and acts. So it is. Therefore, all unborn babies who are killed go to God in his city, and none is lost and cast into the fire, because no unborn or newborn baby has sinned, or can sin.
You must stop thinking commentary and rc doctrine and start reading and studying what God said, not what man wanted Him to say. I will not debate anyone who relies on commentary or doctrine, only by staying with the what is written in the KJV will I discuss anything that has to do with God's word, salvation, or Christ. I am not trying to be mean or rude, but, the bottom line is I have translated well over half of the Bible and know how corrupt commentary and doctrine are. We can talk politics, but not Scripture.
I will not debate anyone who relies on commentary or doctrine, only by staying with the what is written in the KJV will I discuss anything that has to do with God's word, salvation, or Christ. I am not trying to be mean or rude, but, the bottom line is I have translated well over half of the Bible and know how corrupt commentary and doctrine are. We can talk politics, but not Scripture. As you wish. I will provide no commentary. Indeed, I will provide only citations. Go to your KJV and follow them, one after the other. 120 different citations, every one of them directly from the mouth of Jesus, all pointing to the absolute necessity of acts, works - the very centrality of them to following him. And indeed, in Revelation, where he speaks to the Churches, he speaks to established Churches, people who are already believers, and he speaks of knocking down their lamps and spitting them out if they do not DO. When it comes to children, in those passages below there is ample reference to the way their angels face God. Unborn babies cannot ACT, they cannot SIN by not acting. Nowhere in this is there a doctrine that says that the sinless - the unborn - are damned. Or that some of them are damned. No commentary. No doctrine. Just what Jesus said. Directly. Out his own lips. One hundred and twenty separate times. Directly. Unambiguously. On topic after topic. Doing the acts that Jesus commanded are necessary to pass judgment. Failure to do them, failure to repent and conquer sinful acts, is sin. It could not be clearer. He speaks clearer than I ever could. So here he is: John 3:30 Mark 4:17 Matthew 1:15 John 4:36-38 Luke 5:4 Mark 1:17 Mark 2:14 Luke 5:27 Matthew 9:9 Matthew 9:13 John 5:14 John 5:28-29 John 5:39-40 Matthew 12:6-7 Mark 2:4 Luke 6:9 Luke 6:27 Luke 6:28-43 Luke 6:46-49 Matthew 4:7 Matt 5:9 5:15-16 5:19-20 5:22-26 5:29-30 5:32 5:33-37 5:38-42 5:43-48 6:1 6:2-5 6:12-15 6:16-18 6:19-21 7:1-6 7:12 7:16-19 7:21 7:22-23 7:24-27 Luke 7:27 and Matthew 11:11 Luke 7:44-47 Matthew 15:30 Matthew 12:33 Matthew 12:36-37 Matthew 12:50 Mark 3:35 Luke 8:21 Mark 4:12 Matthew 13:15 Matthew 5: 40-42 Matthew 9:37-38 Matthew 10:38 Matthew 10:42 Matthew 15:3-6 Matthew 15:17-20 Mark 7:9-13 Mark 7:18-23 Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9:23 Luke 8:35 Mark 9:7 Matthew 17:5 Matthew 18:3-6 Mark 9:37-42 Matthew 18:10 Luke 9:61-62 John 7:19 John 8:34-41 Luke 11:28 Luke 12:15 Luke 12:33-34 Luke 12:42-48 Luke 12:57-59 Luke 13:1-5 Luke 13:6-9 Luke 13:23-27 Luke 14:11-14 Luke 14:26-33 Luke 15:7 Luke 15:10 Luke 16:13 Luke 16:17-18 Luke 16:19-29 Luke 17:2-4 Matthew 19: 8-9 Mark 10:11-12 Mark 10:13-15 Luke 18:15-17 Luke 18:18-30 Mark 10:17-31 Matthew 19:16-30 Mark 10:41-45 Matthew 20:24-28 Matthew 26:10-13 Mark 14:6-9 Matthew 22:34-40 Mark 12:28-34 Mark 12:43-44 Luke 21:3-4 Matthew 21:42-51 Matthew 25:31-46 Luke 22:25-26 John 14:12 Luke 14:21 Luke 14:23-24 Luke 15:9-12 Revelation 2:7 Rev 2:14-17 Rev 2:19-23 Rev 2:26 Rev 3:1-2 Rev 3:8 Rev 3:15 Rev 3:21 Rev 16:15 Rev 21:7-8 Rev 22:14-15 Rev 22:18-19
Let's start at the top and go down. John 3:30 in context and then you tell me how in the world this proves that all babies go to heaven. 27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him.' 29 He that hath the bride (church) is the Bridegroom (the Christ, Jesus): but the friend of the Bridegroom, which standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the Bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. remember no commentary, no church doctrine.
An unborn baby is a child, not a man. Unborn babies cannot "be witnessed to" - they can't see or hear anything. They are not within the realm of people about whom, or to whom, John is speaking. John is speaking to adult men, and perhaps women, who walked across the desert to the Jordan to see him. He speaks of men - and only men can make that trek and hear and witness and be witnessed to. Jesus speaks of babies and says that their angels behold God constantly, and that whoever outrages one of these - 'twere better if he were cast into the sea with a millstone around his neck. "All men" means "all men". Unborn babies are not "men", they are children. Also, the text that you cited doesn't "prove" that babies go to heaven, but it doesn't prove they don't either. A baby has not sinned. The baby still has that grace from heaven that humans have before they sin. They haven't sinned, their angels are still looking straight at God. The baby hasn't done an act/committed a sin, that breaks his relationship with God. He that cometh from heaven, Jesus, is above all, including babies, and the babies have done nothing to offend. God is a just judge. What justice is there in throwing a sinless unborn baby into Hell for eternity after its mother has murdered it? Such a God would not be a loving God at all, or a just one - that would make a mockery out of the words "love" and "justice". Fortunately, the real God, the Father, and his Son, Jesus, are just and loving. Babies have committed no sinful deed, and therefore they have no sin to account for before the judge who judges deeds. Do they bear the weakness of the flesh from Adam? Of course. That's why they can, and do, die. But their perishability is a fact of the flesh. It does not speak to the state of their spirit. Paul says "all have sinned", but again, that is not true. All MEN have sinned, of course - anybody who could hear Paul and understand him. But BABIES are not part of that "all". They're not men, they're innocent children. They have not sinned, and therefore they have no deeds to be judged and thrown into the flames over. They cannot repent - they do not reason. They have nothing TO repent. There is no sin to forgive. There is the potential for sin, someday. But that POTENTIAL for sin remains in all of those who are baptized and true members of the Church also. The Apostles were certainly faithful, and yet they sinned and fled from Christ and denied him. The Churches of Asia spoken of by Jesus in John's Apocalypse were TRUE Churches, acknowledged by God, and yet they were still sinning. Baptized, born again Christians can and do still sin. The WEAKNESS is still there. They can CHOOSE not to - and repent when they do. But babies don't even have the temptation yet - they have the weakness in them that will GROW, with time, into temptation. But when in the womb and newborn, their angels are still looking straight at God, and they have no sin, only future potential for sin, and "original sin", the mortal weakness of the flesh, which is not a DEED they have committed and for which they will be judged, just a (fatal) condition of being born "in the image of Adam" as opposed to in the image of God. Jesus judges men by their deeds. He said so over and over in that list of 120 versus I provided. Babies have no foul deeds - or deeds at all - for which they can be condemned. Therefore, they are blameless and not condemned, and therefore every single one of them goes to Heaven if they are murdered in the womb. No deeds, no sin. No sin, no flames. No flames, to Paradise awaiting Heaven. The medieval church was too bothered by the thought that all men must be baptized, hence limbo for unbaptized babies. Babies are not men for those purposes. What is baptism? It is for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus did need baptism, because he was sinless, but he underwent it to make a righteous example, to fulfill all righteousness. Because for too long the Church confused original sin - the weakness and mortality we inherit from Adam - with other sin - the sin of deeds - the IMPERATIVE of baptizing babies was introduced. But this was always excessive. Babies are not men, they are babies. They haven't sinned, and won't for awhile. Eventually they will. Children sin. But babies don't. Unborn babies CAN'T. No evil deeds, no deeds to judge, no bad judgment, no hell. All aborted babies go to paradise, then heaven. All of them. God COULD choose some for destruction and others for Heaven, but if he did, he wouldn't be consistent with his own words, and he would be a terrifying and unjust monster, the sort of deity one worships out of fear, not love. Not a good deity. The real deity is better than you think, thank God.
There are no replies to Comment # 22. End Trace Mode for Comment # 22.
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#4. To: redleghunter (#1)
Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ.
#6. To: BobCeleste (#4)
Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ.
#7. To: Vicomte13 (#6)
#8. To: BobCeleste (#7)
read John 3:1-21.
#9. To: Vicomte13 (#8)
#11. To: BobCeleste (#9)
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11)
#14. To: BobCeleste, redleghunter, Too Conservative, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#13)
You must stop thinking commentary and rc doctrine and start reading and studying what God said, not what man wanted Him to say.
#19. To: Vicomte13 (#14)
#22. To: BobCeleste (#19)
Replies to Comment # 22.
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