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Title: Mommy
Source:
www.ChristianPatriot.com
URL Source: http://www.christianpatriot.com/mommy.htm
Published: Aug 20, 2015
Author: Pastor Bob Celeste for ACP
Post Date: 2015-08-20 08:45:35 by BobCeleste
Keywords: ACP
Views: 3501
Comments: 23
Mommy keep me safe, I'm only six weeks old today, Where are we going mommy, What's happening mommy, Bye mommy
by "Rachel Burns"
Mommy keep me warm,
Handle me with all your love,
Mommy keep me from harm.
This birthday gift to me,
A pair of bright blue eyes,
That someday you will see.
I've barely got ears,
A little puppy nose,
and at the end of my feet,
Little things called toes.
Looking forward to my life,
toys, teddy bears, snails,
and long fairy tales.
in a bath, on a bus ride or,
perhaps far away.
Where are we going being pushed
at all force.
How funny it feels passing through
doors,
people dressed in green,
if they hurt you mommy just scream.
I'm starting to cry,
Mommy come quickly,
they're making me die,
Killing me slowly,
Pulling me apart,
everything inside of me
even my heart,
Bye mommy, good-bye
But how I wanted to see
the grass, the trees,
hear a sweet song,
feel a sweet breeze.
good-bye
I love you
I really do
.
.
.
.
I just wish you could have loved me too.
No, it's not a choice,
it is a baby!
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#1. To: BobCeleste, liberator, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, Chuck_Wagon, Don, out damned spot, cranky (#0)
Thank you Bob. How sad. Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ. "When Americans reach out for values of faith, family, and caring for the needy, they're saying, "We want the word of God. We want to face the future with the Bible.'"---Ronald Reagan
Gee Bob, every woman before having an abortion should watch the ultrasound while someone reads that to them. What a tear jerker!!!!! May the spirit of Jesus Christ change their minds!! Si vis pacem, para bellum
Amen. Our visceral reaction to those who murder unborn babies is what I call righteous anger. It is normal to have this and IMO not a sin. We have to also remember that we all in various capacities are sinners in need of God's Grace and Mercy. We can be angry but also must realize those who murder using abortion are also blind and cannot see. They are lost and don't know it. We have all been there in some capacity. We must pray for God's Holy Spirit to open their blind eyes, those lost will be found by the Good Shepherd. "Lord remove their hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh. Plow the soil of their heart to receive your Gospel of Grace and bring peace to their lives. Lord bring them to repentance and faith in You." "When Americans reach out for values of faith, family, and caring for the needy, they're saying, "We want the word of God. We want to face the future with the Bible.'"---Ronald Reagan
Some, not all, but some.
Some girls get abortions out of fright, others, like h. clinton, for convenience. My heart goes out to the first, I have nothing but contempt for the second.
Some, not all, but some. Only some? Why not all? They are all completely innocent, having committed no sin.
read John 3:1-21.
If you are taking that "no one" to include unborn babies, then every aborted baby cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because unbaptized and not begotten anew. This was the classic "Limbo" situation. On the one hand, babies are without sin, and those without sin are not judged. On the other hand, no one who is not begotten anew of water and spirit can enter the kingdom. So, is a newborn, or not-yet-born, baby included in this "anyone"? If the doctrine of Original Sin is true, then that's precisely what it means: until the child is baptized, although he has COMMITTED no sin, nevertheless he is in sin - Original Sin - and because unbaptized by water, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hence the urgency to baptize babies as soon as possible, so they do not die with original sin upon them. Indeed, if one views it that way, one would practically want to baptize a baby in the birthing room, just to be sure. That is, if God is a legalist. If God is not a legalist, then the "everyone" and "anyone" to which Jesus was referring when speaking to Nicodemus really means anybody who could hear or understand the need for being begotten anew and baptism. Whichever way one goes, it's all or nothing. No unborn baby who is aborted CAN be baptized in water and begotten anew - it's too late for that. So the question becomes whether what Jesus said in John 3:1-21 applies to them or not. If it does, then none goes to heaven. If it doesn't, they all do, in innocence. Likewise, Paul says that "all have sinned", but that is not true - unborn babies have not sinned...unless original sin exists and is counted as sin. In which case it is imperative to baptize newborn babies, and the refusal to do so means depriving newborns who die a crib death of eternal life. I think the answer is obvious from the rest of Scripture, which makes it abundantly clear that Jesus will judge people by their ACTS, and that ending up in the lake of fire or the City of God depends on what you DO during life. That is abundantly clear from passage after passage. BUT, contra, there is what Jesus said to Nicodemus, which if taken literally means that there is no hope for ANY unborn baby. There is a direct and violent conflict in Scripture on this matter. You have to decide for yourself. In my view, the multitude of places that Jesus says that men are judged by their deeds are overwhelming, and fit in with the pattern of justice and mercy of God in both Testaments. The absolute and half ritualistic apparent requirement in John 3 should be, I think, read in such a way that doesn't nullify all of the rest of what Jesus said. The conflict is an absolute one. One really does have to choose. Either all of those babies are with God, or none of them are.
Now, before you argue, try to learn. Now read about Predestinated, foreknew and most important when God wrote the names of those who are in the Book of Life in the Book of Life. And you will understand "some, but not all".
That form of predestination erases free will and renders everything else Jesus said a nullity. Jesus spoke throughout about ideal acts and being judged by deeds, and he spoke as a man encouraging people who could choose to make a change, not as a man going through verbal motions before a bunch of automata without will. Unborn babies cannot do any deeds, and they cannot sin. For God to "predestine" some of those - whom he slated for death in an uncaring womb - to hellfire would be in contradiction to everything Jesus said about deeds, and about the angels of innocents. It would reduce God to a monster, really. Yes, the contradiction is there. And it is along these lines, really, that Christianity breaks into two very distinct theologies: the Calvinist, which you are espousing and which some lines of Paul suggest, and the Catholic, which Jesus and I espouse. It's a horrific division, and it cannot be papered over because Scripture goes both ways. So it comes to a matter of authority. Paul is the strongest authority for your view, in some of the things he said. Jesus is the strongest for mine. Jump ball. I say that Jesus was God, and Paul was not, so Jesus always trumps. You say "every word" and thereby make Jesus and Paul equals in Scripture. I say that Jesus spoke last, and in those final words he said, he said judgment was based on acts and deeds. And I think that the combination of being God and speaking last wins the day - before my eyes. I acknowledge that this tension is definitely IN Scripture. It's not made up. But I think that the answer to the contradiction lies in the relative authority of pieces of Scripture, and God trumps men, and what God spoke directly himself, and spoke latest, has the highest authority. Jesus spoke last, in Heaven itself, and he said judgment is based on deeds and acts. So it is. Therefore, all unborn babies who are killed go to God in his city, and none is lost and cast into the fire, because no unborn or newborn baby has sinned, or can sin.
Who believe and act as you do, that is true.
You must stop thinking commentary and rc doctrine and start reading and studying what God said, not what man wanted Him to say. I will not debate anyone who relies on commentary or doctrine, only by staying with the what is written in the KJV will I discuss anything that has to do with God's word, salvation, or Christ. I am not trying to be mean or rude, but, the bottom line is I have translated well over half of the Bible and know how corrupt commentary and doctrine are. We can talk politics, but not Scripture.
I will not debate anyone who relies on commentary or doctrine, only by staying with the what is written in the KJV will I discuss anything that has to do with God's word, salvation, or Christ. I am not trying to be mean or rude, but, the bottom line is I have translated well over half of the Bible and know how corrupt commentary and doctrine are. We can talk politics, but not Scripture. As you wish. I will provide no commentary. Indeed, I will provide only citations. Go to your KJV and follow them, one after the other. 120 different citations, every one of them directly from the mouth of Jesus, all pointing to the absolute necessity of acts, works - the very centrality of them to following him. And indeed, in Revelation, where he speaks to the Churches, he speaks to established Churches, people who are already believers, and he speaks of knocking down their lamps and spitting them out if they do not DO. When it comes to children, in those passages below there is ample reference to the way their angels face God. Unborn babies cannot ACT, they cannot SIN by not acting. Nowhere in this is there a doctrine that says that the sinless - the unborn - are damned. Or that some of them are damned. No commentary. No doctrine. Just what Jesus said. Directly. Out his own lips. One hundred and twenty separate times. Directly. Unambiguously. On topic after topic. Doing the acts that Jesus commanded are necessary to pass judgment. Failure to do them, failure to repent and conquer sinful acts, is sin. It could not be clearer. He speaks clearer than I ever could. So here he is: John 3:30 Mark 4:17 Matthew 1:15 John 4:36-38 Luke 5:4 Mark 1:17 Mark 2:14 Luke 5:27 Matthew 9:9 Matthew 9:13 John 5:14 John 5:28-29 John 5:39-40 Matthew 12:6-7 Mark 2:4 Luke 6:9 Luke 6:27 Luke 6:28-43 Luke 6:46-49 Matthew 4:7 Matt 5:9 5:15-16 5:19-20 5:22-26 5:29-30 5:32 5:33-37 5:38-42 5:43-48 6:1 6:2-5 6:12-15 6:16-18 6:19-21 7:1-6 7:12 7:16-19 7:21 7:22-23 7:24-27 Luke 7:27 and Matthew 11:11 Luke 7:44-47 Matthew 15:30 Matthew 12:33 Matthew 12:36-37 Matthew 12:50 Mark 3:35 Luke 8:21 Mark 4:12 Matthew 13:15 Matthew 5: 40-42 Matthew 9:37-38 Matthew 10:38 Matthew 10:42 Matthew 15:3-6 Matthew 15:17-20 Mark 7:9-13 Mark 7:18-23 Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9:23 Luke 8:35 Mark 9:7 Matthew 17:5 Matthew 18:3-6 Mark 9:37-42 Matthew 18:10 Luke 9:61-62 John 7:19 John 8:34-41 Luke 11:28 Luke 12:15 Luke 12:33-34 Luke 12:42-48 Luke 12:57-59 Luke 13:1-5 Luke 13:6-9 Luke 13:23-27 Luke 14:11-14 Luke 14:26-33 Luke 15:7 Luke 15:10 Luke 16:13 Luke 16:17-18 Luke 16:19-29 Luke 17:2-4 Matthew 19: 8-9 Mark 10:11-12 Mark 10:13-15 Luke 18:15-17 Luke 18:18-30 Mark 10:17-31 Matthew 19:16-30 Mark 10:41-45 Matthew 20:24-28 Matthew 26:10-13 Mark 14:6-9 Matthew 22:34-40 Mark 12:28-34 Mark 12:43-44 Luke 21:3-4 Matthew 21:42-51 Matthew 25:31-46 Luke 22:25-26 John 14:12 Luke 14:21 Luke 14:23-24 Luke 15:9-12 Revelation 2:7 Rev 2:14-17 Rev 2:19-23 Rev 2:26 Rev 3:1-2 Rev 3:8 Rev 3:15 Rev 3:21 Rev 16:15 Rev 21:7-8 Rev 22:14-15 Rev 22:18-19
You mean to tell me someone has actually had sex with her??? Yeeechhhh.... I agree, perhaps from a different approach. Indeed what we do is judged. What these unborn babies have is God's Grace. John 3: 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. These babies murdered by their parents have no deeds to be made manifest. "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
Nice list. Bookmarked for discipleship training:) I think if churches actually preached your list "membership" would thin out to those who love Christ and are led by the Holy Spirit. "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
To prepare it yesterday, I went through the New Testament from front to back and wrote down the cite for each and every place where Jesus spoke of acts, deeds, "Do this", "Do not do that", and also where he spoke of judgment based upon doing, acting. I did not include the places where he said to "say" or "feel" something, though I could because those are deeds. I considered also making a side list of the places where Jesus said "believe" this, or "have trust". It is clear enough that without the trust or belief, nobody is going to do those things at all - especially the hard things such as forgiving debts and lending out money, or checking anger and loving the unloveable.. Without belief in the divinity of Christ and trust in the promised rewards, it would appear to be singularly unprofitable to follow him. So, I would wholeheartedly agree that without belief and trust, you can't follow him. And I'd agree that you can't come to belief on your own. You can educate yourself and get the facts, but the resistance to belief is there in part BECAUSE of what one has to DO once one believes, One can put the "electrodes" in place for belief, but I think that the soark to close the synapse and complete the circuit does have to come from God. That's pretty clear from the texts also. But it is crystal clear that once one believes, one must then DO, otherwise the "belief" - the "faith" - is worthless. In other words, "Faith Alone" will not gain anybody Heaven after death unless he comes to faith in some final moments when he is then UNABLE to proceed thereafter to act on that faith and obey the commandments to DO. The criminal who is dying in his execution may well come to faith and be acceptable to God then - the parable of the workers in the vineyard, with those coming in last getting the full day's wage just as those who worked all day. BUT that seeing-the-light-before-inevitable-death is not the situation of most people. Most people come to belief at some point earlier in life, and Jesus says to them that they now must DO. And indeed it is the very actions that Jesus requires, particularly the economic ones and the ones that involve suspending wrath and arrogance and vengeance and being meek, that cause most people to not, in fact, walk with God. Sure, there are the sexual temptations and sins also, but those are more straightforward and ultimately less important. They are simple sins, of temptation, and powered by demons, and sins that can be washed away. Yet it is on THOSE sins that men like to key and focus, and damn one another. But it is on economics and wrath that Jesus spends most of his time. If one looks through that long list of 120 different quotes about action and deeds, charity, mercy and controlling anger are almost all of it. There are perhaps four mentions of sexual sin - two of them in "don't" lists, one of them in which Jesus says that a prostitute who washes his feet in her tears is more blessed than the religious men who had him to dinner, and then finally, in Revelation, God's statement that he had been patiently waiting for a women in one of the Churches of Asia who was bedding the parishioners as they learned "the deep things of Satan" but that his patience was running out. Think about how very mild God in Heaven was about a fornicating woman WITHIN the Christian Church, fornicating with others of the faithful! Eventually, he warned, he was going to cast her and them into a sickbed (probably through STDs) and kill the children of these unholy couplings - his patience was running out - but look how patient he was already. Likewise with the woman taken in adultery "Let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone." The sheer mildness of Christ regarding sexual sins and temptations can be juxtaposed against the fanatic concern of Christians on the matter of sexual sin. On the other hand, the brutal promise Christ makes more than once in that list of throwing into the hell the hardhearted who do not give financial resources to the poor or care about prisoners, who pass them by, and the promise of harsh judgment for those who judge harshly - God speaks of harsh judgment and hell for economic and hard-heartedness crimes in half of that list. He speaks of sexual vices four times only, and twice with forgiveness. Notice how Christians get this precisely backwards. Now consider abortion in our society, the very think that precipitated the Calvinist discussion that suggested that some aborted babies are pre-destined for hell - a doctrine that does not exist in a word Jesus or YHWH ever said. I have been kind about that and not striven about it, preferring to present Jesus and let him speak. But that WAS the point of that lost. You are judged by your acts, deeds and works. Jesus said that 120 times. Unborn babies never had the chance to do even one act. Of course they are not damned. Criminals facing death CAN'T act any more, and their final coming to the faith can save them. The people who are at greatest risk are those who come to a lukewarm faith: Yeah, Jesus is God, Heaven, Hell, baptism, all that. But no, I really don't have to lend out all of my excess money without interest. And what's this about giving to all who ask? I'll be broke! Actually, if one looks to obey Jesus rather than to find a way to weasel out of his commandments, one will look back at Torah to understand the economic law, every letter of which applies to Christians because Jesus says so, and it will suddenly become obvious what one ought to do. First, recognize that the TITHE was to the Levites, and it was poverty relief. The Temple is down. There are no Levites. What people give to Church MAY be good, if it keeps the lights on and what is going on under those lights is good. But it's not good if it's making millionaires out of preachers. No preacher should live in a multi-million dollar house and live lavishly. Funds spent to allow such lifestyles are not given to God and they're not in God's service. There is no tithe, because there are no Levites. There is no 10% that goes to organized Church as a matter of God's law. Those who say that there is, are choosing to insist upon a part of the law that doesn't apply to the Church, because the Church isn't the Levites. However, if Church holds itself out as Levites, then that tithe must be used first to feed and support the clergy, but then the rest of it specifically for the poor - and nothing else. Not "pilgrimage" ministries or the church building. The Levitical tithe was for the Levites and the poor to EAT. So if a church arrogates unto itself the role of Levites, and claims the tithe, then the money from the tithe can pay first for the food, clothing and shelter and education - but not the entertainment, travel or religious work - of the "Levite" minister of that Church and his family. And then all of the rest of that tithe MUST be distributed to the poor as food, clothing and shelter. NONE OF IT can be spent on the Church building, electricity, etc. The Levitical tithe was a physical sustenance and poverty relief tithe, not a general fund. Churches should not demand a tithe, but if they nevertheless do, and the tithe on a congregation of 100 families that each give 10% of their income - say $500,000 - that church may then spend, say, $50,000 of that FEEDING the pastor and his family, and clothing them, and gifting them medical care (or insurance), and perhaps another $50,000 HOUSING the pastor and his family - but not one dime on the church building (unless the paster and his family LIVE there). The remaining $400,000 MUST be distributed to the poor around the Church - for food, clothing and shelter. That was what the Levitical tithe was. It was a TAX imposed by God on the gains from AGRICULTURE (more on this in a moment) for the PURPOSE of FEEDING the Levites, and then FEEDING the poor. It WAS NOT a "general fund" to operate the Temple. No. The funds to operate the Temple came entirely from the offerings and the gifts of the faithful. So, if Christian churches are going to have that 10% "tithe", they must ALSO pay MORE THAN THAT (if they're going to actually follow the LAW under which they claim the tithe), to keep up the building and run the programs. That 10% belongs to the poor, not the Church. And all of it has to go into people's bellies or to over their nakedness or shelter them. God gave no discretionary funds to the Temple and Levites of old. He ordained a tithe whereby the Levites were to feed and clothe the poor. I focus on these financial aspects of the law precisely because Christians insist on focusing on things that either are not important (such as who is "predestined" - well, guess what, if that doctrine really were true, it would not matter, because God has already decided it, so no purpose or good is done by spending more than one minute acknowledging it - God's already decided everything, so talking about this is pointless, therefore let's move on to what God told us to do…). And I focus on the financial because Jesus and YHWH both said it was very important, spent a great deal of time on it, but Christians spend more time obsessing about sexual sin than financial sin - which, once again, is the opposite of what Christ and YHWH did in the Scripture. I focus on the financial precisely because IT is probably the greatest test of faith for Americans. Americans have a very evil set of concepts about money and the social order. It goes back to the original capture of the land, through war and violent taking from the inhabitants. It then proceeds through building an economy based upon the physical enslavement of a quarter of the population, under conditions of slavery that would have carried the death penalty for the owners under the law of Scripture. And our social and financial problems today have largely spun out from the evils of our past, and our greedy, grasping nature, refusing to repent our sins and pay for them by making right. The more Christian Americans resist doing right regarding God's economics, the more calamity befalls the nation, and sexual sin is one of the sins that arises and proliferates BECAUSE OF the economic desperation that would not be here if we obeyed Jesus and YHWH regarding money. I focus on the tithe, because the Christian Churches, likewise, are awash in economic sin, claiming assets of the faithful but then refusing to actually apply the LAW under which they claim the assets. The tithe was of agricultural increase (remember, there was no interest on loans, so there was no "money increase"), it was in the form of food, and it purpose was feeding people - Levites and the poor. Churches claim a tithe, which they use to operated the building and pay salaries, and that is a theft of the tithe from the poor. Systematically Christians disregard God's economics, while at the same time keying on irrelevancies like "Pre-destination" or "Faith alone", a faith which THEY THEMSELVES say has to come from God alone. If God is doing the predestination then there's nothing WE can do about it, is there? If GOD is the source of faith, then there's nothing WE can do about THAT either, is there? So it's a complete waste of time talking about it. If you're sitting in Church, it's because God calls you there, and it's a waste of your time to talk about how God only calls the special. You're there, you're special. But Jesus goes on - you're called, I gave you faith - now you have to DO these things I say, ACTUALLY DO THEM, or I will throw you into the flames at final judgment. Maybe you can't do those things at all if you don't have faith, and maybe you were either predestined to have faith or not, but you can't do anything about that. But if you're lucky - you're elect, and you have faith, your faith will not save you if you don't actually DO what Jesus said. And Jesus spoke a lot about economics. If you're not actually DOING God's economics, and not actually DOING God's anger management, forgiveness and chastity, you're going to hell. Your faith is useless. You were chosen, and you rejected your gift. :"WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO YOU TO FOLLOW ME IF YOU DO NOT KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS?" That's Jesus. He answers the question too: none. In fact, you're worse off than you were before. He said it'll go better for Sodom and Gemorrah in the day of judgment than for hypocrites. But returning to my point about that fearful thing Jesus says "Lend to anybody who asks", we must return back to the economic law. The TITHE is of agriculture, not of money. For money is not supposed to grow. God gave everybody a farm in Israel, and that should be the model. God knew that people needed stable housing, as the BEGINNING of their stability. It is no REWARD for HARD WORK to have housing. It's actually a birthright from God. And yet, we are not given housing. In fact, most Americans, including idiot Christians who understand nothing, would bellow that the very idea of "free" housing is communist or whatever. No, it's God's law. We're not going to have that as the law of our land. Ever. THEREFORE we have to actually BUY our housing, and THEREFORE we are not the free actors of the Torah, because we don't START with our land and housing secure. Rather, we start out as deeply indentured servants, slaves to debt, and this lasts for decades. Our land is small and generally sterile. There's no food to tithe. We're paid cash wages for work - there is no TITHE on labor wages in the Scripture. The TITHE is exclusively on the INCREASE FROM THE LAND. And as wage slaves, unfree men indentured for years just for our lodging, we have no land producing excess. We owe no tithe, and we should not participate in the error, or lie, of some pastor who claims some right to a "tithe" of money from wage slaves. It is a lie, and a false doctrine. All pastors in the countryside, where food is grown, may demand first fruits and 10% tithes of the produce of the ground, and then distribute them as poverty relief. But this should be coming as food - to be distributed - not as money, to be squandered however the Levite feels. The tithe is FOOD, and it should be in the FORM OF FOOD, specifically to remove the temptation to use it fungible. There is no tithe on money, because money should not be increasing on its own. So, you see, you are a wage slave, an indentured servant under the law. You don't OWN anything other than a few chattels - your furniture. Our houses, or land, should not be under eminent domain, and should not be taxed. They are supposed to be free-and-clear secure. But they are not. Which means that we never have the security of housing that God promises. The evil of men prevents us from getting there. The Israeltes had to go in and take the land of Canaan. WE have to buy, with our money and time, where we live. What WE should be doing with our money, then, is first paying off all debt. While we are deeply indebted, we are not free men at all. We are in the cadre of a SLAVE or an IINDENTURED SERVANT in Israel under the law, and THAT means that we don't "own" anything. Our property belongs to our owner, and our money should be going to securing our freedom SO THAT we own our money, so that we HAVE money that is ours, SO THAT we can give away the excess. Do you not see? It is a pretense of Americans, who grew up in a slavery/indentured servitude/debt slave economy to OVERESTIMATE THEIR PLACE and think themselves free men, and therefore subject to the laws of free men under the laws of God. But under the laws of God, we are not free men. We do not have freehold farms. We are, in fact, indentured servants - debt slaves - and if WE go giving our money away to causes, we are in fact abusing our owners. That money is THEIRS until we are out of debt. The Christian should, instead, be living very frugally. If you had an indentured servant who owed you a great deal of money, and whose money wages were paid by letting him out to another business, such that he was the one bringing the money to you (as opposed to you getting the money directly), how would YOU want him handling that money that is yours? You understand that he needs lodging, transportation and an education - indeed, to get those things is how he became indentured to you in the first place - you provided him the money. You know that he needs to eat, clothe himself, and do the same for his children. You understand that he needs SOME leisure, or he will become ill and unproductive. But beyond that, is he buying excess goods? Is he storing up gold bars, or guns, or porcelain for his wife? Is he "investing" YOUR money for HIS gain in some speculative enterprise? Is he taking lavish vacations? All of those things are him taking what is yours from you. If you had control of him, would you permit that? If you had an indentured servant, what sort of housing would you permit him to have, what sort of car, education, food, clothing and leisure. Would you permit him to smoke, or would you consider that an expense of your resources? To drink? How closely would you take him under control and limit him to the bare necessities in order to obtain more of his wages - which is really your money? Think about it. How low would you go as far as his creature comforts? Would you put him in a barracks, with the necessities and nothing more? Would you let him take vacations with his family? Would you even let him date or go obtain a family, until you were paid off? How would you treat an indentured servant? However you would treat him, whatever limits you would impose on him. Is exactly how you should be living your own life, right now, until every penny of all of your debt - and most notably your housing debt. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Notice that as long as you're an indentured servant under the law, your wages are not YOURS. They are your debt masters. What portion of his wages can you give to church? Precisely the same portion that you were permit your slave to give of the wages that he was handed that belong to you. What portion on vacation? What portion for anything? Precisely the same. Until we have paid off our house and are debt free, we are not free men at all, and while we can give small offerings to keep the lights on, we have no RIGHT to "tithe" (or to be giving any significant sums to charity either. We are giving away money that is not ours. We can give our TIME. We can give our old used property "in kind" but our liquid wages belong to our masters - and our masters are our lenders. We are not free men under the Israelite economy. We are slaves, indentured servants. We can purchase our freedom, but until we do, we're only entitled to subsistence. What is that? Well, our masters are distant banks, so we have to impose on ourselves the restrictions that WE would impose on a debtor who had borrowed from us directly, whom we could supervise. Money that would be inappropriately spent on an unreal "tithe" or on excessive charity, or on flashy cars or fancy vacations, or luxurious food or clothing or jewelry, or money that would be "invested" to make more money illicitly through usury - all of those wages should instead be applied to eliminate debt. All of it. Until debt is gone and the indenture is satisfied, a man is not in fact free to give anything away but some of his time and his used articles. He is not free. He has no "excess". And once the house is owned? There are still the endless taxes that have to be paid, or the house will be taken. This is contrary to God's economic law, but what can we do about it? The government charges us rent. We have to provision for the rent, so we don't lose our homes. That provision for rent is not an "excess", it is not "storing up wealth". It is providing for a known expense. And once you are free of debt? You have children. They, too, will be debt slaves. They, too, will require housing, and will go into debt for it. Also education. To provision for these known expenses is not "storing up wealth" or "joining house to house". If you are fortunate, you will pay your debt off, and then be able to work with them to pay off their education and their housing also, and to provision for your grandchildren. To work one's way to freedom so that one actually touches the bottom rung of the economic law of God is a hard, long, bitter process. American pretensions of already BEING free are absurd. And THAT is the difference between "the rich" and the rest, in a Biblical sense. The average American THINKS of himself as "rich" if he has a "nice" house and some money in a 401(k). Americans are strivers. They exaggerate. Until a man is debt free for himself, and his children are debt free and living in their own property, and their children are provisioned for to be able to do the same, and the land on which they sit has been cultivated - "cultivate your own garden", the man is not free. And if a man has created a lifestyle for himself that will not be sustainable on Social Security, he is not really free either. The lifestyle must reduce and be simple. More is excess. Perhaps we all dream of having the convertible Corvette or Jaguar we could never afford young. This is an illicit dream at any age. Put it away. It is a waste, and extravagance. The rich are those for whom all of these things are already covered, and who have abundant excess of wealth such that they COULD cover much more. They could similarly free many others, BUT THEY DON'T. Instead, they build build ever-bigger houses (but what man needs more than 1000 s.f. for his personal space), buy more lavish cars, spend on lavish parties, engage in lascivious behavior, compete for prestige, and pile money atop money. But wage slave indentured servants, professed Christians - they worry about Jesus economic laws. "Give to all who ask"? Sure. Here's a dollar. Here's a sandwich. That is what most people can spare. But consider the truly rich Christian convert. Consider, say, some oil billionaire who suddenly realizes the Christ is real, God is true. His wealth pours in constantly from his oil wells. What is he to do? Well, he too has some debt. And he too should pay it. But then he still has billions pouring in, then what? Every member of his family, every friend, every Christian, ever man, needs lodging - that is why God STARTED with the free, unalienable farm. His extended Christian family tree have mortgages, They are not free. Lend to them at no interest, or at the statutory minimum, using God's one rule: 6 year payback, seventh year release. 6 years of Christian apprenticeship, with the billionaire (or his staff) systematically guiding the indentured servant (purchased for the debt money), preparing the taxes, showing the example. Six years without excess breaks many habits. And then, in the seventh year, "freedom", but as a Christian, to prepare the resources for the children. I'll stop now.
Let's start at the top and go down. John 3:30 in context and then you tell me how in the world this proves that all babies go to heaven. 27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him.' 29 He that hath the bride (church) is the Bridegroom (the Christ, Jesus): but the friend of the Bridegroom, which standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the Bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. remember no commentary, no church doctrine.
So, I would wholeheartedly agree that without belief and trust, you can't follow him. And I'd agree that you can't come to belief on your own. You can educate yourself and get the facts, but the resistance to belief is there in part BECAUSE of what one has to DO once one believes, One can put the "electrodes" in place for belief, but I think that the soark to close the synapse and complete the circuit does have to come from God. That's pretty clear from the texts also. But it is crystal clear that once one believes, one must then DO, otherwise the "belief" - the "faith" - is worthless. I'm glad you made the above clarification. It was once said: "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”"---Isaiah 40:8
It sounds as if you have been listening to hyper-Calvinists, and not the Lord. I know the leaders of the KJV-Only Movement, and they reject hyper-Calvinism as being un-Scriptural. If God didn't provide mankind free will to choose faith in Christ for salvation, then there simply isn't any point in witnessing. Error, indeed, is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced … more true than truth itself—Irenaeus, Against Heresies
An unborn baby is a child, not a man. Unborn babies cannot "be witnessed to" - they can't see or hear anything. They are not within the realm of people about whom, or to whom, John is speaking. John is speaking to adult men, and perhaps women, who walked across the desert to the Jordan to see him. He speaks of men - and only men can make that trek and hear and witness and be witnessed to. Jesus speaks of babies and says that their angels behold God constantly, and that whoever outrages one of these - 'twere better if he were cast into the sea with a millstone around his neck. "All men" means "all men". Unborn babies are not "men", they are children. Also, the text that you cited doesn't "prove" that babies go to heaven, but it doesn't prove they don't either. A baby has not sinned. The baby still has that grace from heaven that humans have before they sin. They haven't sinned, their angels are still looking straight at God. The baby hasn't done an act/committed a sin, that breaks his relationship with God. He that cometh from heaven, Jesus, is above all, including babies, and the babies have done nothing to offend. God is a just judge. What justice is there in throwing a sinless unborn baby into Hell for eternity after its mother has murdered it? Such a God would not be a loving God at all, or a just one - that would make a mockery out of the words "love" and "justice". Fortunately, the real God, the Father, and his Son, Jesus, are just and loving. Babies have committed no sinful deed, and therefore they have no sin to account for before the judge who judges deeds. Do they bear the weakness of the flesh from Adam? Of course. That's why they can, and do, die. But their perishability is a fact of the flesh. It does not speak to the state of their spirit. Paul says "all have sinned", but again, that is not true. All MEN have sinned, of course - anybody who could hear Paul and understand him. But BABIES are not part of that "all". They're not men, they're innocent children. They have not sinned, and therefore they have no deeds to be judged and thrown into the flames over. They cannot repent - they do not reason. They have nothing TO repent. There is no sin to forgive. There is the potential for sin, someday. But that POTENTIAL for sin remains in all of those who are baptized and true members of the Church also. The Apostles were certainly faithful, and yet they sinned and fled from Christ and denied him. The Churches of Asia spoken of by Jesus in John's Apocalypse were TRUE Churches, acknowledged by God, and yet they were still sinning. Baptized, born again Christians can and do still sin. The WEAKNESS is still there. They can CHOOSE not to - and repent when they do. But babies don't even have the temptation yet - they have the weakness in them that will GROW, with time, into temptation. But when in the womb and newborn, their angels are still looking straight at God, and they have no sin, only future potential for sin, and "original sin", the mortal weakness of the flesh, which is not a DEED they have committed and for which they will be judged, just a (fatal) condition of being born "in the image of Adam" as opposed to in the image of God. Jesus judges men by their deeds. He said so over and over in that list of 120 versus I provided. Babies have no foul deeds - or deeds at all - for which they can be condemned. Therefore, they are blameless and not condemned, and therefore every single one of them goes to Heaven if they are murdered in the womb. No deeds, no sin. No sin, no flames. No flames, to Paradise awaiting Heaven. The medieval church was too bothered by the thought that all men must be baptized, hence limbo for unbaptized babies. Babies are not men for those purposes. What is baptism? It is for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus did need baptism, because he was sinless, but he underwent it to make a righteous example, to fulfill all righteousness. Because for too long the Church confused original sin - the weakness and mortality we inherit from Adam - with other sin - the sin of deeds - the IMPERATIVE of baptizing babies was introduced. But this was always excessive. Babies are not men, they are babies. They haven't sinned, and won't for awhile. Eventually they will. Children sin. But babies don't. Unborn babies CAN'T. No evil deeds, no deeds to judge, no bad judgment, no hell. All aborted babies go to paradise, then heaven. All of them. God COULD choose some for destruction and others for Heaven, but if he did, he wouldn't be consistent with his own words, and he would be a terrifying and unjust monster, the sort of deity one worships out of fear, not love. Not a good deity. The real deity is better than you think, thank God.
Bye.
#2. To: BobCeleste (#0)
" Thoughts of a baby in the womb "
#3. To: Stoner (#2)
May the spirit of Jesus Christ change their minds!!
#4. To: redleghunter (#1)
Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ.
#5. To: Stoner (#2)
#6. To: BobCeleste (#4)
Here's knowing these babies although slaughtered in the womb (and out of it too), they are now playing at the nail pierced feet of our Master our Lord Jesus Christ.
#7. To: Vicomte13 (#6)
#8. To: BobCeleste (#7)
read John 3:1-21.
#9. To: Vicomte13 (#8)
#10. To: Vicomte13 (#8)
there is no hope for ANY unborn baby.
Or eventually for adults.
#11. To: BobCeleste (#9)
#12. To: rlk (#10)
Or eventually for adults
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11)
#14. To: BobCeleste, redleghunter, Too Conservative, A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#13)
You must stop thinking commentary and rc doctrine and start reading and studying what God said, not what man wanted Him to say.
#15. To: BobCeleste, redleghunter, Liberator (#5)
like h. clinton, for convenience.
“Let me see which pig "DON'T" I want to vote for, the one with or without lipstick??" Hmmmmm...
#16. To: Vicomte13 (#11)
Jesus spoke last, in Heaven itself, and he said judgment is based on deeds and acts. So it is. Therefore, all unborn babies who are killed go to God in his city, and none is lost and cast into the fire, because no unborn or newborn baby has sinned, or can sin.
#17. To: Vicomte13 (#14)
#18. To: redleghunter (#17)
#19. To: Vicomte13 (#14)
#20. To: Vicomte13 (#18)
I considered also making a side list of the places where Jesus said "believe" this, or "have trust". It is clear enough that without the trust or belief, nobody is going to do those things at all - especially the hard things such as forgiving debts and lending out money, or checking anger and loving the unloveable.. Without belief in the divinity of Christ and trust in the promised rewards, it would appear to be singularly unprofitable to follow him.
#21. To: BobCeleste (#19)
27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him.' 29 He that hath the bride (church) is the Bridegroom (the Christ, Jesus): but the friend of the Bridegroom, which standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the Bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. remember no commentary, no church doctrine.
#22. To: BobCeleste (#19)
#23. To: GarySpFC (#21)
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