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Title: Putin Escalates Again in Ukraine
Source: Wall Street Journal
URL Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/putin-e ... es-again-in-ukraine-1439853482
Published: Aug 17, 2015
Author: staff
Post Date: 2015-08-17 20:27:31 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 2430
Comments: 16

Russian proxies in occupied eastern Ukraine shelled Ukrainian-government positions over the weekend and on Monday. The artillery barrage killed two civilians and wounded several others in Sartana, near the Sea of Azov. It’s one of the larger-scale escalations of the conflict since a winter cease-fire. Meanwhile, the Obama Administration continues to withhold a radar upgrade that would allow Ukrainian forces to protect against shelling.

Moscow and Kiev agreed under the Minsk II accord negotiated in February to cease hostilities, create a buffer zone and withdraw heavy weapons. Yet “to a big extent [the Russian side] continually violates the agreement,” Gen. Viktor Muzhenko, the chief of staff of Ukraine’s armed forces, told us in a rare interview before the latest escalation. “Some days we can have 80 to 100 violations.”

Russian violations range from small-arms fire to covert infiltration to the heavy shelling on the weekend. The Kremlin’s aim is to gradually break the will of the Ukrainian people. “This war looks like a war of attrition,” Gen. Muzhenko says. “It’s Russia’s intent to demoralize our forces, and using that mechanism they want to influence Ukraine’s military leadership as well as the state leadership.”

The devastation and human suffering wrought by indiscriminate Russian shelling—120 mm mortars and 152 mm howitzers that blow through homes, factories and fortifications and account for many of the nearly 9,000 killed since the conflict erupted—is at the heart of this strategy. Under pressure from the U.S. and Western European powers to abide by Minsk while its adversary doesn’t, Kiev’s hands are tied and its capabilities are outmatched by the Kremlin’s.

The Obama Administration refuses to provide lethal assistance to Kiev, and even previously promised nonlethal assistance isn’t always forthcoming. The Journal reported in July that the Pentagon was considering transferring the AN/TPQ-36 and 37 Firefinder radar system to Ukraine. The system would allow Kiev to better surveil Kremlin-held territory, and to locate and silence the sources of incoming artillery fire.

The system is ready to be delivered, according to a senior American military official, who says the U.S. military is also prepared to provide training. But the Pentagon still needs political authorization in Washington almost a month after the original announcement was made to great press fanfare. No wonder Vladimir Putin thinks he can violate his agreements with impunity.


Anyone believe that the Ukraine issue is all fixed? Still, the USA has continuously caused issues here.

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#1. To: A Pole, Pericles (#0)

What, EXACTLY, do the Russians want? What, if given to the Russians, would fully satisfy them and make the killing stop?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-17   20:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: A Pole, Vicomte13 (#1)

What, EXACTLY, do the Russians want? What, if given to the Russians, would fully satisfy them and make the killing stop?

This is the biased WSJ. From independent sources I read the Kiev coup govt has violated the ceasefire more times than the so called rebels.

Pericles  posted on  2015-08-17   21:30:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Pericles (#2)

Ok, so there are violations all over the place. But what do the Russians WANT to END THIS?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-17   22:42:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#3)

But what do the Russians WANT to END THIS?

The West won't end this because to negotiate means they lost. The West, led by the USA is an insidious empire that can't admit to every being weak or losing.

Pericles  posted on  2015-08-18   0:06:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Pericles (#4)

That may be so, but it's not the question. What do the Russians WANT?

What, specifically, would they accept as a victory?

The West wants the Russians driven completely from the Ukraine, including the Crimea, and for the whole thing to become NATO, and for Putin to fall as the result of the defeat. That's what the West WANTS. The West is not going to get that, but that would be a victory on Western terms.

What does victory look like to the Russians in this?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   0:34:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

What do the Russians WANT?

Russia would likely deal - I am guessing a Finlandization of a federated Ukraine. America refuses to deal.

Pericles  posted on  2015-08-18   0:39:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#3)

But what do the Russians WANT to END THIS?

A piece of Poland and a slice of Turkey. Tried to find the Mel Brooks song on this but alas boobtube does not have that classic.

They did have this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo

"When Americans reach out for values of faith, family, and caring for the needy, they're saying, "We want the word of God. We want to face the future with the Bible.'"---Ronald Reagan

redleghunter  posted on  2015-08-18   1:05:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Pericles (#6)

A federated Ukraine, as in a Ukraine that is under a common government with Russia? Or a Ukraine that is a federal government internally, with different states that send representatives to Kiev? Finlandization of a neutral, independent Ukraine seems reasonable for peace. Do a federated, Finlandized Ukraine keep the Donbass?

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   1:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

Killing comes from Kiev.

The main target of shelling is Donetsk and other cities in Donbas.

Kiev and Lvov are not being shelled.

A Pole  posted on  2015-08-18   2:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: A Pole (#9)

Yes, killing comes from Kiev, and from Mosciw. The question is, what are the terms on which it will STOP.

There was a point during World War I when everybody was exhausted on all sides, and everybody on all sides desired peace. But when it came to seeking it, the desires of each side became hallucinatory. Each side imagined vast territorial gains at the expense of the other. Each side believed itself to be completely in the right. (The same was true during the American Civil War.) having already sacrificed so much, neither side was willing to reasonably discuss what was needed to end the war. Essentially, each side demanded total victory for itself as the price for ending the war.

And so the war continued for another two years (in both cases). And the net result at the end? Millions more deaths, and the shattering of every country in Europe; in America, the permanent destruction of the old constitutional order and the birth of something else more centralized, militaristic and dark.

What did the Russians, the Austrians, the Germans, the Turks, the Italians, the French and the English gain from prolonging the war ? Death. Four of those governments did not survive the war and their people passed through revolution and plague and depression afterwards. Italy was so damaged that she fell into a dictatorship. The French and British Empires were broke. Sure, they "won", but at a price that made them both fall apart two decades later.

There comes a point where people have to set an exit price: what will it require to END this.

Finlandization of a federal Ukraine is something that could be. But somehow compelling the Ukrtaine to "admit its sins" and cease to exist" - that will never happen, and Russia will end up breaking itself if that is the goal.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   7:21:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#10) (Edited)

Yes, killing comes from Kiev, and from Mosciw. The question is, what are the terms on which it will STOP.

When West agrees for a reasonable compromise and stops demonizing Russia. And sends McCain away to lettuce picking farm.

A Pole  posted on  2015-08-18   7:27:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

 But somehow compelling the Ukrtaine to "admit its sins" and cease to exist" - that will never happen, and Russia will end up breaking itself if that is the goal.

Poroshenko and Yatseniuk are not Ukraine. And they are not capable to admit any wrong or mistake.

A Pole  posted on  2015-08-18   7:30:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A Pole (#12)

The tragedy shall continue, then.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-08-18   7:48:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: buckeroo (#0)

Putin Escalates Again in Ukraine

Of course he does.

Why is anyone surprised when a career Soviet KGB officer acts like a career Soviet KGB officer?

It's about as remarkable as fish swimming or birds flying.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-08-18   8:48:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

What, EXACTLY, do the Russians want?

It's hard to say what Russians want at this point,because once again the sensible ones are afraid to speak in pubic.

What Pooty-Poot and his fans want is the return to power of the Soviet Union.

Under THEIR leadership,of course.

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-08-18   8:50:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Pericles (#4)

The West won't end this because to negotiate means they lost. The West, led by the USA is an insidious empire that can't admit to every being weak or losing.

Ohhh,the irony!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

sneakypete  posted on  2015-08-18   8:52:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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