United States News
See other United States News Articles
Title: Hey, Let’s Release a Traitor! [Pollard]
Source:
WeaponsMan
URL Source: http://weaponsman.com/?p=24068
Published: Jul 22, 2015
Author: Â
Post Date: 2015-07-22 08:35:28 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 3043
Comments: 66
Jonathan Pollard, caught on surveillance video stealing documents. American traitor Jonathan Pollard is closing in on the backstretch of his stint in Federal Prison. “Wait,” you say. “He was sentenced to life in prison!” Well, just like the way the Administration can release a bunch of terrorists from Gitmo to resume their lives of crime, or swap some of them for a traitor, to reward the turncoat, or release another bunch of drug and gun criminals to play Santa Claus in July — all these things really happened, we are not making them up — they can release a traitor and spy if they like. And the word is, that the US Department of Justice will reward the spy for his 1980s betrayal by kicking him out of his long-term rent-controlled apartment in the Crowbar Condiminiums on the 30th Anniversary of his arrest. Pollard must have been a true puzzlement to the Administration. A spy with the simplest motivation of all, greed, he mostly stole things that were no direct use to his Israeli spymasters, but which they could trade for things they needed from other US enemies, like Russia. That was, in fact, what his Mossad handlers directed him to steal. And Pollard’s mercenary motivation was clear for several reasons. First, he admitted it when caught, so that’s a bit of an indicator. Also, Israel wasn’t his first stop. He’d tried two other foreign powers, only to be turned down (the Russians and Chinese both thought he was a really clumsy FBI dangle), before setting his sights on Israel. Since his arrest, he’s rediscovered his previously more or less lapsed Judaism and conned a lot of Israeli society into believing that the mostly Russian-related secrets he stole were Middle Eastern intel that the US was not sharing with Israel out of a lack of trust (gee, we can’t imagine why that might obtain). He has a huge fan club, and an army of lawyers and helpers that have been trying to spring him for decades, and might finally get their wish. One of their complaints has been that Pollard, who’s only 61, is in ill health and is likely to die within months. (Hmmm, last time we heard that it was about a Libyan terrorist that the British government released due to a “imminently terminal” diagnosis… the guy lived for years). He’s being released, not out of humanitarian concerns, as far as we can tell, but because hey, he was a cancer attacking America, a traitor; and that’s something that the whole Beltway can get behind. The Jonathan Pollard of 2015 probably believes himself he was an Israeli patriot, but the Jonathan Pollard of 1985 would have sold the stuff to Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad just as gladly, if they’d had an embassy (give Washington time, they might) and he’d thought they had any money. His supporters argue that he did not deserve life in prison. We agree. What he deserved was what civilized men always understood as The Spy’s Reward. Still does. Of all the claims about Pollard, the most controversial is the one that he spied for money, and not for Jewish/Israeli patriotism. An excellent overview of the Pollard case by the investigator who took his first confession is Capturing Jonathan Pollard by Ronald Olive, and it recounts Pollard’s extensive drug use, grandiose behavior, and attempts to spy for several nations including Australia (! p. 43-44). He also shared extensive classified and codeword information with a CBS reporter, Kurt Lohbeck, and offered Lohbeck a chance to share with him in the profits of selling one classified document to Pakistan (with whose intelligence agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, Lohbeck already had a relationship). Lohbeck declined, but he and his editor, Sam Roberts, who discussed Pollard at length, apparently never considered turning Pollard in. After all, they could use the secrets he provided. Azoulay, Orly, and Eichner, Itamar. Reports: US Justice Dept. will not oppose Pollard’s release. YNet News, 19 July 2015. Retrieved from: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4681431,00.html Olive, Ronald. Capturing Jonathan Pollard: How One of the Most Notorious Spies in American History Was Brought to Justice. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 2013. Shalev, Chemi. Jailed spy Pollard on track for November 21 release – unless something goes wrong. Ha’aretz, Jerusalem. 17 July 2015. Retrieved from: http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.666604
(1 image) 
Update
Sources
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: TooConservative (#0)
Do OUR spies deserve death when captured?
I heard he was up for release based on meeting parole conditions.
I dunno. That rapidly turns into an argument about situational ethics. I take it you have a strong opinion about it.
I do. God only authorized men to kill men who kill. Spies do not kill. They steal secrets and say what should not be said. To kill a spy is murder, and people who murder other people are thrown by God into Hell. Men can bellow "Our STATE is more important than the life of a sneaking WORM!" And such men are idolators - for they pretend that their emotional service given to an idol of their own hands - their "state", authorizes them to trample the laws of God and ignore God's prohibition of killing men. It does not. Men have no right before God to kill men for spying. None. When they do it, they are murderers and damned to Hell unless they repent. But because they are idolators who believe their states, who have no arms or legs or minds, which are figments of their imagination, made by their own hands, deserve service that supersedes the laws of God, men who kill spies feel justified. They never repent because it makes sense to sacrifice spies to their idols. Whoever executes a spy is a murderer. He has thrown himself into the lake of fire unless he repents. But he will not repent because he is an idolator who worhships his state over God's law. No death for spies.
Not at all. Spies often aid in the murder of others or in acts of war against another country. Being deeply engaged in the missions of foreign spy masters, they are complicit in the many crimes committed against the targeted country, including murders. In Pollard's case, he was weakening U.S. defense with the secrets he was trying to sell to all comers, including an actively hostile USSR. BTW, do you demand the death penalty for our own spies who kill or who are complicit in the deaths of others? Maybe you'd like to take this opportunity to practice some consistency. How do you feel about our soldiers killing anyone in a targeted country in undeclared wars?
What if that info is used to have many killed? Im not sure if I have made up an opinion on this subject.
Everything is facts and circumstances based. Give a real-life example and let's parse it out. An Iraqi spying for the Americans transfers information to us that gives us the ability to go kill rebel commanders. And we do it. He is captured by the Iraqis and exposed. Does he deserve death? The information he has given has resulted in the death of other men.
There's usually a 'gentlemen's' agreement in spycraft to not kill an opposing nation's operative but to swap them out. At least the case during the Cold War. However, Pollard was not an international spy...He was a greedy American traitor. I guess the question should be does he deserve a traitor's reward? For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
To kill a spy is murder, and people who murder other people are thrown by God into Hell. Depends on the secrets. If the said information was classified to protect lives of others, then that spy by stealing and sharing them is complicit in murder if used by an adversary to kill. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
I would say he's only a spy, not a traitor. He tried to be a traitor by offering to sell info to the USSR and Chicoms, back when those were steadily hostile opponents of the West. They weren't interested as they thought he was a clumsy FBI operative. So he sold info to a de facto ally, Israel. So it is harder to call him a traitor because he did not actively collaborate with an active enemy power. Treason has a high bar set for it in America, always has. You have to collaborate with an active hostile enemy to be guilty of treason and get executed for it. Benedict Arnold is still the classic example.
How do you feel about our soldiers killing anyone in a targeted country in undeclared wars? American soldiers are men. Men have no right to kill other men, ever. The only two exceptions are in self-defense - which is a limited thing not a "threaten another and then kill him when he defends himself against you" - and in execution of those who have killed, after a fair trial with at least two witnesses and proper procedure. That's it. Wearing a uniform and being in a "declared war" is no license by God to kill. It's a license that men give to men to kill. Wars turn nations into camps of mass murderers. God never authorized men to draw the sword on other men in order to impose laws and dominion over them. Men arrogated that power to themselves. But the Law never changes until the end of the world. When men use deadly force to compel other men to obey rules, they throw themselves into Hell. Generally this is without reprieve, because men are arrogant idolators who refuse to bow down to God's law. They don't see it, and refuse to - because if they DID see it, they would recognize that most of their concepts of states and governments are idols and not sustainable before God at all. But they refuse to see it, because to adjust to a different way would mean that collapse of power, authority, much property, and much wealth. It would mean "reverting" to something that men cannot imagine and do not want. So they defend their idols, against God and his laws. Which means they don't repent their killings. Which means they are murderers and, when they die, they are judged as murderers and thrown into the Lake of Fire. The path is narrow and few find it. The path to destruction is broad and easy and the gate is wide. Most tread it. To be right with God, you have to give up the notion of serving other things. Do I demand the death penalty for our spies, or for anybody? No, because I don't recognize the legitimacy of our state, or any other state, to EXIST under its present terms. States impose themselves by force, under threat of death. They are not legitimate. They have no right or authority to kill in order to preserve their power. They do it, so they must be feared and respected for what they can do, but their legitimacy to exist must never be granted. When God comes, he will throw the United States, and France, and Germany, and Russia and China - virtually all states - into the fire. They will be destroyed as the evil idols they are. And those men who serve their nations loyalty, who break God's fundamental law of not killing in order to serve, are idolators and killers who will all be thrown into hell for their unforgiven - because unrepented - sins. That's the way it is. If you hate it, it's because you are opposed to God. Don't oppose God. You can't win if you do. What has been built cannot be sustained under the laws of God. Therefore it must be seen for what it is: an idol. And not supported or served.
That's true, but there are greater nuances. Is the cause itself that the secrets defend defensible?
Really a bad example or irrelevant. The dude will die because that is what the Muslim fanatics do. Dude is toast. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
God did not authorize men to kill men for betraying their nation. He only authorized it in direct defense - if necessary (and it is never necessary to kill a man under your power, because you are no longer defending yourself) - and as justice for murder. Benedict Arnold could have been executed by the British, for he killed many British soldiers without cause. However, he could not have been executed by the Americans, because he didn't kill any Americans. He TRIED to hand over a fort to cause his nation to lose the war. But he failed and nothing happened. Americans were white hot with rage, understandable. There is no justification to kill under such circumstances. In custody, Arnold was not a threat. The concept of the state itself must be rethought. Americans had no justification to kill the British in 1775. The American Revolution started as an unjust war. Arnold was a murderer who deserved death for killing British soldiers, as did all of the American Colonists who killed the British in 1775. The Americans should have paid their taxes, obeyed the laws, petitioned peacefully, and awaited either a change of heart by the authorities or a new King or government. When the cause itself is unjust, if you go out onto a battlefield and kill in its service, you are nothing but a murderer. Because YOU believe your idol to be just, you won't repent the killings. And when you die, you will be convicted of murder in the service of an idol and thrown into the Lake of Fire for your idolatry and murders. There is only salvation for the repentant. War is mass murder in the service of idols, particularly for the side that started the war, but also for the other side, if they do not limit what they do to defense. Stopping an attack by taking territory can be defense. Firebombing cities full of civilians is not defense, it is mass murder. Unrepentant pilots who firebomb cities burn in Hell, no matter what flag they flew under, and no matter how proud they are of their idolatry.
The dude will die, but if his death is illegal under the law of God, his killers will be thrown into Hell.
That's all very convenient after the fact. When it counted, you were a gungho military guy yourself. So going all Christian peacenik now doesn't require anything more than just an opinion. When it counted, you served the war machine, no doubt with as many glib justifications as you now hold for others doing the same things you did on active duty.
If what you mean is, do we execute people for selling the secrets themselves or the consequences thereof? IMO it has to be a trial to present evidence that death has occured and the persons involved in the theft of secrets complicit. Also a degree of pre- meditation as well. Meaning, they most likely knew their actions would lead to another person's death. Being fair, Pollard probably knew or did not care what he sold would harm others to even death. Bradley Manning OTOH, Another factor is the difference in combatant lives vs. non-combatant lives. For example. If secrets were sold which expose vulnerabilities in a nation's port of entry procedures and this leads to a nation or terrorist organization to kill non-combatant civilians, then that spy should be considered for capital punishment before a jury of his/her peers. Finally, if we oppose governments from policing/prosecuting murder, violent crimes and theft then we promote lawlessness. Which leads to more murder, violent crime and theft. As you have pointed out in the past, not all nations throughout history have done this well and some have abused this power. The solution IMO is not to cede to disorder and lawlessness but to uphold the law. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
And when I did all of that, I was certain that Christianity was a Bronze Age myth, that "God" was the laws of nature, and that life after death was a fairy story we told our children to make them feel better. When I did that I was a kid of high heritage but few resources, for whom a free college education and a job was a tremendous boon. I enjoyed the prestige of Annapolis, and I enjoyed even more the perks that came with those "Golden Leg- Spreaders", the Navy wings. I knew as a matter of logic and convenience that abortion in the first trimester was the best way to avoid poverty, crime and inconvenience. I knew at America Uber Alles was the way for my own prospects in the world to be maximized, and that that's what life was all about: a competition, survival of the fittest. I knew all of that, all logic led to that conclusion, and the conventional sciences told me that it was true. It was divine revelation, starting in July, 2001 that made me know that God not only IS, but that God is a HE, who has an opinion. That changed everything, abruptly. My beliefs always conform to the facts as I know them to be. I liked my pagan self just fine. Paul was a Jew, laboring under guilt because of his law and culture. I was a secular pagan, quite comfortable in my skin. The advent of God forced me to stop doing things that I like, and to recognize that things that I naturally favor and believe in are wrong in an objective sense, BECAUSE God exists. I cannot "hold others accountable" for anything. I'm not God. I understand why people do things, because I'm a "people" just like they are, and I was as they are. I focus on the concrete proofs of God because the only way to leave off those things which seem fair but are foul is by fact and proof. In my case, I have revelation. Others don't, directly, until God comes to them. But God DID leave concrete proofs to those who will apply their science and logic. I did what I did when I did it for reasons that seemed perfectly good to me then, and that would still seem perfectly good to me now, by natural logic. It is the knowledge of the existence of the supernatural that causes me to turn from that path. I'm not a Christian because I LIKE it. I don't particularly. I'm a Christian because it's TRUE, and I know it. I did not know it then, and I don't have guilt in my own mind for having acted according the rational knowledge that I had, and the faculties of discernment that God gave me, in light of the particular challenges he laid before me. Nor do I simply condemn. I recognize the challenges of the world that drove my decision-taking then, and I advocate a comprehensive reform of the political and legal system so that men are not put into the situation where they unwittingly commit great evil simply in order to survive.
Uphold the law, yes, but the law we must uphold is that law of God, and not merely "the law" that men make up as an exercise of power. There is a great deal more human law that we should not uphold than divine law to which we are bound and ought to uphold.
There are great nuances. The article suggesting stringing up Pollard. Frankly, the justice system should stick with the sentence of life in prison. That is what he received. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
The Colonists of the time seem to disagree with you:) Some dudes coming off the docks in red coats, with rifles, shot and canon with naval battery support, then heading to where the guns of the colonists are kept...Yikes sounds like self defense to me. I mean who will defend the widow and the orphan and families? For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Frankly they don't care what we tell them or show them. Their 'god' is Allah and he says to kill all those who oppose him. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Defend the widow, the orphan and families from whom?
I never heard that before.
Pollard is not Aldrich Ames or Robert Hannsen . I have never seen any evidence that indicated he caused American,or American asset deaths .I have seen no evidence that the information he stole and sold to Israel was ever used against us . When Ames and Hannsen are strung up then I'll entertain the sentence for Pollard.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
There is a great deal more human law that we should not uphold than divine law to which we are bound and ought to uphold. I understand your position and given the Second Coming of Christ has not happened yet to establish true justice on earth...We have flawed systems. Some overtly evil, some clandestinely such, and some striving to be just based on known absolutes of God. All administered by mankind who is fallen. There will be outright evil intentional actions and there will be people trying to pave the way to hell with good intentions. Through the various spectrums of efforts of man, none will be perfect. That does not give society and mankind license to just dump social order and allow chaos and lawlessness abide. We are instructed as Christians not to bother society in their attempt to deal with evil and lawlessness. I know you are not advocating lawlessness and chaos. However, your utopia of God's Law established and Truth and Justice supreme on earth won't happen worldwide until the Second Coming of Christ. Until then, the Kingdom of Heaven is within the Christian to be followed, preached and for us to be beams of light showing others the path to Christ the King. Again for the record...I do not believe you advocate lawlessness and chaos. IMO some of your earthly 'corporate' widescale ideas for establishing peace and justice would work for a short time and then BOOM---Kobayashi Maru--Animal Farm all over again. The framework you propose with the use of civil government will be immediately corrupted by fallen man in pursuit of power, wealth and death. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
You tell 'em, Ram. Do we really have to list the evils perpetrated by man in the name of God to prove your point? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
That is not true. The American colonists had mechanisms for a self govt in place. It was rebellion against the failure of govt rather than of govt.
I think the Revolutionary War was a just war so I am not in agreement with Vic. As for Pollard, I am against special early releases. If there was no parole mechanism for his release and one was created after the fact I would be against it - if eligibility for parole was part of his jail sentence and it seems it was than if he was paroled I would not act like it was some dastardly early release. The traitors of "Falcon and the Snowman" were released for example.
Not possible. He is doing Federal time.
Those that wish them harm and death. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
About as many or perhaps scores more evils perpetuated by man in the name of himself, the 'better good' and in defiance to God. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Correction. I take it back. He has been in there so long, he predates the elimination of Federal parole in 1987.
I never heard that before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard During Pollard's trial, the U.S. government's memorandum in aid of sentencing challenged the "defendant's claim that he was motivated by altruism rather than greed." The government said that Pollard had "disclosed classified information in anticipation of financial gain" in other instances: The government's investigation has revealed that defendant provided to certain of his acquaintances U.S. classified documents which defendant obtained through U.S. Navy sources. The classified documents which defendant disclosed to two such acquaintances, both of whom are professional investment advisers, contained classified economic and political analyses which defendant believed would help his acquaintances render investment advice to their clients... Defendant acknowledged that, although he was not paid for his unauthorized disclosures of classified information to the above-mentioned acquaintances, he hoped to be rewarded ultimately through business opportunities that these individuals could arrange for defendant when he eventually left his position with the U.S. Navy. In fact, defendant was involved in an ongoing business venture with two of these acquaintances at the time he provided the classified information to them...[34] During the course of the Pollard trial, Australian authorities reported the disclosure of classified American documents by Pollard to one of their own agents, a Royal Australian Navy officer who had been engaged in a personnel-exchange naval-liaison program between the U.S. and Australia.[35] The Australian officer, alarmed by Pollard's repeated disclosure to him of data caveated No Foreign Access Allowed, reported the indiscretions to his chain of command. It recalled the officer from his position in the U.S., fearing that the disclosures might be part of a "CIA ruse".[35] Confronted with this accusation after entering his plea, Pollard admitted only to passing a single classified document to the Australian; later, he changed his story, and claimed that his superiors ordered him to share information with the Australians.[35] As of 2014 the full extent of the information Pollard passed to Israel has still not been officially revealed. Press reports cited a secret 46-page memorandum, which Pollard and his attorneys were allowed to view.[36] They were provided to the judge by Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, who described Pollard's spying as including, among other things, obtaining and copying the latest version of Radio-Signal Notations (RASIN), a 10-volume manual comprehensively detailing America's global electronic surveillance network.[9][37]
I know you are not advocating lawlessness and chaos. However, your utopia of God's Law established and Truth and Justice supreme on earth won't happen worldwide until the Second Coming of Christ. Until then, the Kingdom of Heaven is within the Christian to be followed, preached and for us to be beams of light showing others the path to Christ the King. Again for the record...I do not believe you advocate lawlessness and chaos. That's all very well. The problem is this: individually God will hold you accountable for your sins. God prohibited men from killing other men. He didn't make it optional. If a state COMMANDS Christians, as a matter of law and order, to denounce Christ, and it is a time of war, does the Christian do it? Does he say "Well, it's a fallen world, and the state authorities have said that I must denounce Christ. If I don't, and other Christians don't, the unity of the state will be lost and then the country may well be destroyed, and if THAT happens the chaos will be terrible - Animal Farm stuff. Therefore, in this fallen world, God will understand if I denounce Christ"? Does the Christian say that? Why not? Because God judges, and God demands that people remain obedient EVEN IF it means death and destruction? Denying Christ is a trivial thing compared to killing another human being. Because one can just go through the motions of the denial in order to preserve life, order and the peace, but not really mean it. It's a lie, but a lie is a lesser evil than the collapse of the social order and mass starvation and Animal Farm, is it not? (Or isn't it?) There's good precedent in the Bible that God understands people pretending to worship idols but not really meaning it. Naaman the Syrian was healed of leprosy by the prophet Elisha, and Naaman acknowledged that the one true God was the God of Israel. He said that he would thenceforth worship only the God of Israel, but he said that he would nevertheless have to bow down to the idol of his master, the eastern king, because he was his vizier at court. Elisha did not tell him he must not, and his leprosy did not return. When you kill a man, you've committed an act that cannot be retrieved. One can always change words and acts, but if you've destroyed another living soul, you cannot undo what you have done. The first (and only) physical punishment offense for Gentiles given by God was for shedding blood. "He who sheds blood, by man shall his blood be shed." So, I guess we stand at a fork in the road. The one path says that, in order to preserve the social order, respect the authority of commanders, not divide the nation in war, and not bring about all of the calamities that come from men being "utopic", that if the rulers demand a renunciation of Christ, or perhaps (as in Canaanite cities) participation in group pansexual rituals, or killing other people in spite of God's ban, that God understands all of these things, in a fallen world, and forgives all of it as the lesser evil. It's a lesser evil to deny Christ, participate in orgies, and kill other men than to risk the social order. That's one path. The other is that the social order the requires denial of God, sexual license and killing requires defiance of God, and that these snares are specifically placed by Satan to force this very conflict, in which a man must choose between God and the idol of "social order". Faced with such a thing, men not only MUST break the law, but they MAY attack their own state in self defense. The state may call them traitors, but God will reward them with a crown. But those who went along to "avoid the worst" - the breakdown of the social order - in fact chose the path TO the worst by preserving a social order that were better destroyed, even though that means mass human death. For all men die, but it is better to die sinless in a famine from a social collapse, than to die having just shed blood and denied God in the service of an idol. Those are the two paths. It is my belief that the second path is the only one that is certain to result in a positive judgment. In the first case, to lie in order to preserve life but to internally hold to the truth MAY be forgiven by God as a weakness. But once a man starts to overtly participate in orgies and to kill people, the forbidden fruit has actually been eaten, and I do not believe that without full repentence he can be saved.
No way. The intelligence community will not just sit back and take it.
The Americans had been self-governing since first settlement. That the British imposed some taxes and other restrictions on the colonies in light of the results - both in debt and territorial gains - in the previous war, made many mad. They would accept no limits and no rules, no taxes "on principle", and on that principle, they planned a revolt against their leaders, and they revolted and shot up soldiers. It was unjustifiable. By the mid-war period, once the British had themselves unleashed Indians to come marauding into civilian towns and slaughter people and the like, the justification to fight was there, but it certainly was not there in 1775. The British had done nothing as of the 18th of April of '75 to justify the mass murder of British soldiers.
Who was THAT in the suburbs of Boston in 1775?
I agree. He did not conspire with enemy powers, even if he may have provided info with material that ultimately ended up in the hands of our enemies after Irsael sold it to them. It sends a bad message to Mossad and Israel to release this spy. It demonstrates that Israel is a powerful enemy willing and able to protect its spies once captured, something no other country could get away with in conducting espionage against America.
I agree. I posted this article because there has been a virtual news blackout on the subject. Which is pretty fishy in itself.
Good post. People forget over decades just what a spy like Pollard actually did. For comparison, look at how the .gov dealt with the Walker family spy ring, also back in the Eighties. They got hundreds of years in prison for selling vital operational secrets of our Navy directly to a hostile power, the USSR, over decades. The father and his older brother both already died in prison. The son, who played a minor role, got paroled about 15 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker Pollard sold info to an allied government (Israel), not to an active enemy power like the Walker family spy ring did. And even the Walkers escaped any death penalty.
Comments (42 - 66) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWhat he deserved was what civilized men always understood as The Spy’s Reward.
#2. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#1)
#3. To: Vicomte13 (#1)
Do OUR spies deserve death when captured?
#4. To: TooConservative (#3)
(Edited)
I dunno. That rapidly turns into an argument about situational ethics. I take it you have a strong opinion about it.
#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)
Whoever executes a spy is a murderer.
#6. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#4)
I do. God only authorized men to kill men who kill. Spies do not kill. They steal secrets and say what should not be said.
#7. To: Justified (#6)
What if that info is used to have many killed?
#8. To: Vicomte13 (#1)
Do OUR spies deserve death when captured?
#9. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative (#4)
I do. God only authorized men to kill men who kill. Spies do not kill. They steal secrets and say what should not be said.
#10. To: redleghunter (#8)
#11. To: TooConservative (#5)
BTW, do you demand the death penalty for our own spies who kill or who are complicit in the deaths of others? Maybe you'd like to take this opportunity to practice some consistency.
#12. To: redleghunter (#9)
Depends on the secrets. If the said information was classified to protect lives of others, then that spy by stealing and sharing them is complicit in murder if used by an adversary to kill.
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#7)
An Iraqi spying for the Americans transfers information to us that gives us the ability to go kill rebel commanders. And we do it. He is captured by the Iraqis and exposed. Does he deserve death?
#14. To: redleghunter (#8)
However, Pollard was not an international spy...He was a greedy American traitor. I guess the question should be does he deserve a traitor's reward?
#15. To: redleghunter (#13)
Really a bad example or irrelevant. The dude will die because that is what the Muslim fanatics do. Dude is toast.
#16. To: Vicomte13 (#11)
Generally this is without reprieve, because men are arrogant idolators who refuse to bow down to God's law.
#17. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
That's true, but there are greater nuances. Is the cause itself that the secrets defend defensible?
#18. To: TooConservative (#16)
When it counted, you were a gungho military guy yourself. So going all Christian peacenik now doesn't require anything more than just an opinion. When it counted, you served the war machine, no doubt with as many glib justifications as you now hold for others doing the same things you did on active duty.
#19. To: redleghunter (#17)
#20. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
Is the cause itself that the secrets defend defensible?
#21. To: Vicomte13 (#14)
Americans had no justification to kill the British in 1775.
#22. To: Vicomte13 (#15)
The dude will die, but if his death is illegal under the law of God, his killers will be thrown into Hell.
#23. To: redleghunter (#21)
#24. To: TooConservative (#5)
U.S. defense with the secrets he was trying to sell to all comers, including an actively hostile USSR.
#25. To: redleghunter, TooConservative (#9)
#26. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, CZ82, liberator (#19)
Uphold the law, yes, but the law we must uphold is that law of God, and not merely "the law" that men make up as an exercise of power.
#27. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, CZ82, liberator (#26)
IMO some of your earthly 'corporate' widescale ideas for establishing peace and justice would work for a short time and then BOOM---Kobayashi Maru--Animal Farm all over again. The framework you propose with the use of civil government will be immediately corrupted by fallen man in pursuit of power, wealth and death.
#28. To: Vicomte13 (#14)
Americans had no justification to kill the British in 1775.
#29. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#16)
#30. To: Pericles, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#2)
I heard he was up for release based on meeting parole conditions.
#31. To: Vicomte13 (#23)
Defend the widow, the orphan and families from whom?
#32. To: SOSO (#27)
You tell 'em, Ram. Do we really have to list the evils perpetrated by man in the name of God to prove your point?
#33. To: Pericles, Vicomte13, TooConservative (#30)
[nc] Not possible. He is doing Federal time.
#34. To: A K A Stone, TooConservative (#24)
U.S. defense with the secrets he was trying to sell to all comers, including an actively hostile USSR.
Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) investigator Ronald Olive has alleged that Pollard passed classified information to South Africa,[31] and attempted, through a third party, to sell classified information to Pakistan on multiple occasions.[12] Pollard also stole classified documents related to China on behalf of his wife, who used the information to advance her personal business-interests. She kept these secret materials around the house, where investigating authorities discovered them when Pollard's espionage activity came to light.[11][32][33]
#35. To: redleghunter (#26)
We are instructed as Christians not to bother society in their attempt to deal with evil and lawlessness.
#36. To: TooConservative (#0)
He’s being released, not out of humanitarian concerns, as far as we can tell, but because hey, he was a cancer attacking America, a traitor; and that’s something that the whole Beltway can get behind.
#37. To: Pericles (#28)
That is not true. The American colonists had mechanisms for a self govt in place. It was rebellion against the failure of govt rather than of govt.
#38. To: redleghunter (#31)
Those that wish them harm and death.
#39. To: redleghunter (#20)
The article suggesting stringing up Pollard. Frankly, the justice system should stick with the sentence of life in prison. That is what he received.
#40. To: tomder55 (#25)
Pollard is not Aldrich Ames or Robert Hannsen . I have never seen any evidence that indicated he caused American,or American asset deaths .I have seen no evidence that the information he stole and sold to Israel was ever used against us . When Ames and Hannsen are strung up then I'll entertain the sentence for Pollard.
#41. To: nolu chan, A K A Stone, redleghunter, Pericles, Vicomte13 (#34)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
.
.
.
[Home] [Headlines] [Latest Articles] [Latest Comments] [Post] [Mail] [Sign-in] [Setup] [Help] [Register]