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Title: Trump creates outrage in Iowa claiming that John McCain wasn't a war hero because he was a captured POW and dodges questions about his own Vietnam War draft deferments
Source:
Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... all-half-field-stays-home.html
Published: Jul 18, 2015
Author: David Martosko, US Political Editor
Post Date: 2015-07-18 13:59:06 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 58871
Comments: 201
Donald Trump escalated his feud with Sen. John McCain on Saturady in Iowa by suggesting only his capture and five years as a prisoner of war turned him into a 'war hero.' 'He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured,' Trump said on stage at the Family Leader Summit in Ames. McCain spent years in a Viet Cong prison after the plane he was flying was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967.He was tortured enough to produce permanent physical disabilities. Trump got student and medical deferments and never served in uniform. He told reporters after his speech that a bone spur in his foot led to the medical exemption from the draft. Asked which foot had disqualified him, he couldn't remember. 'You'll have to look it up,' Trump said dismissively. 'It's in the records.' Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who is running 10th in an average of national polls, immediately called for Trump to quit his presidential campaign. ANGRY: Trump attacked Sen. John McCain and said the only reason he is considered a war hero is his capture and imprisonment as a POW during the Vietnam War. NOT A HERO? Sen. John McCain spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison after his plane was shot down durign the Vietnam War WALKING WOUNDED: McCain's torture left him disfigured and permanently damaged 'I respect Sen. McCain because he volunteered to serve his country,' Perry said in a statement. 'I cannot say the same of Mr. Trump.' 'His comments have reached a new low in American politics. His attack on veterans make him unfit to be Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, and he should immediately withdraw from the race for President.' Trump focued considerable rhetorical artillery on McCain Saturday, mocking his bona fides on military and veterans issues: 'He graduated last in his class at Annapolis,' he claimed. 'Well, second-to-last.' In a press conference following his speech, Trump backtracked a few inches about prisoners of war. 'If somebody's a prisoner, I would consider him a war hero,' he said. 'But her have lots of heroes who wersn't prisoners. The billionaire's tussle with McCain began after he drew a reported 15,000 people to a campaign event in Phoenix to talk about illegal immigration. McCain, a proponent of comprehensive immigration reform, called his audience 'crazies.' Trump responded that the GOP's 2008 presidential nominee was a 'dummy.' In an emailed statement to DailyMail.com, Trump said after his press conference: 'I am not a fan John McCain because he has done so little for our Veterans and he should know better than anybody what the Veterans need, especially in regards to the VA.' 'He was extremely disrespectful to the thousands upon thousands of people, many of whom happen to be his constituents, that came to listen to me speak about illegal immigration in Phoenix last week by calling them "crazies",' Trump carped. 'These were not "crazies" – these were great American citizens.' 'I have great respect for all those who serve in our military including those that weren’t captured and are also heroes,' he insisted. Republicans auditioned all day for Christian conservatives, parading their bona fides in the nations' first presidential primary state. But not everyone searching for votes showed up. The cattle-call brought nine of the Republican Party's 15 declared presidential candidates to a single stage, less than a day after Democrats did the same thing – with all five of their White House hopefuls – a two-hour drive to the east. The Christian-right sponsoring group, The Family Leader, attracted mostly the candidates from the conservative end of the GOP spectrum. Led by political kingmaker Bob Vander Plaats, the group wields outsize influence in the Hawkeye State whenever Republicans barnstorm through during the run-up to the quadrennial Iowa caucuses. The $10 billion man was otherwise a crowd favorite in Ames, Iowa, speaking about his religion before a group of Christian conservatives Donald Trump's childhood church was First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica, Queens, New York City. He said he was in church just last week Anti-abortion politics were visible in Ames, Iowa on July 18, 2015 at the Family Leader summit, a gathering of Republican presidential candidates hosted Missing in Ames was the Republican front-runner Jeb Bush, the sometimes-moderate New Jersey governor Chris Christie and the usually moderate former New York governor George Pataki. Nowhere to be found were senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Rand Paul of Kentucky. Paul's libertarian brand of Republicanism, makes some religious conservatives wary. Carly Fiorina, the GOP's only female While House contestant, also didn't make the trip. Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, the day's first candidate-speaker, wrapped up his time on stage in a Q&A with pollster Frank Luntz by asking if he could read aloud from a book. 'It's a Bible,' he said, drawing wild cheers from the audience. He read from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, verse 48: 'From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded' – explaining it as a parable about America's global primacy and its obligations to keep its people, and the world, safe. Rubio blasted the Obama administration's recent nuclear bargain with Iran, calling it 'a complete sham.' He also castigated the president for sidestepping the role of Islam in global terror. 'It's not radical Presbyterian terrorism,' he said. 'It's radical Islamic terrorism. ... We have to target them militarily in their safe havens.' Abortion politics were visible both outside and inside the event venue in Ames, Iowa. Sign-wavers pointed to right-wing outrage over a surreptitious video that showed a Planned Parenthood medical doctor describing how she tailored her abortion procedures in order to preserve fetal body parts for human biologics companies. Outrage over an undercover video sting of Planned Parenthood brought anti-abortion Iowa Rep. Steve King kicked off the day with anger over 'that in-quotes "doctor"' whom he said was killing 'babies that could be viable outside the womb. It is sickening to watch.' Seizing on the political moment as a springboard for new laws tightening abortion restrictions, Knig said: 'This is our chance.' Also in evidence was a lingering resentment over this month's stunning Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex weddings nationwide. 'Marriage = 1 [man] and 1 [woman],' a projected image declared above the stage as the crowd filed in, using icons to represent male and female. 
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#1. To: A.K. Stone (#0)
'He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured,' Trump said on stage at the Family Leader Summit in Ames. Trump got student and medical deferments and never served in uniform. He told reporters after his speech that a bone spur in his foot led to the medical exemption from the draft. Asked which foot had disqualified him, he couldn't remember. That's your boy. You must be so proud of him. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Kinda like Limbaugh and his anal cyst that got him his deferment. As much as I despise McStain, at least he served. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much I don't consider McCain a war hero. I consider him a POS. Just because you get captured doesn't make you a hero. It has added to my knowledge of you that you consider John McCain a hero. Trump is right.
I broke my foot a few years ago. I have to think about it for a minute to remember which one it was. That was in the 60's i'm sure even harder. Who cares.
What do you disagree with?
John McCain served in the military and he served his country well. But, Trump is absolutely correct, McCain in not a war hero. I have great respect for a man who tells it like it is, a straight shooter is someone I have been waiting for to step forward.
Do you say that McCain is a war hero?
My views on McCain have been posted on numerous occasions. I agree with Stone - he's a traitorous POS. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much Okay, I got it.
McCain is a war criminal who bombed civilians, not a war hero for being captured and I spit on his worthless Vietnam medals.
Way to go Trump. McCain has been a traitorous POS for a long time. He was the traitor who wanted to use our military as Al Qaeda's air force in Syria.
By his own admission: As other pilots saw it, John McCain, quite simply, had got himself shot down. He was tortured, but: Besides getting himself shot down:
A guy with the moral values to call his future wife to the national press a great piece of ass. A guy that slings sh*t at those who served in Vietnam but can't remember in which foot the bone spur got him his medical pass out. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You notice with the exception of one, the absence from this thread of the many who usually condemn McCain at every possible instance. Naturally, if they now come on and admit that McCain is no war hero….then they will be admitting Trump is right. Of course, they will never-never admit Trump is right….about anything. What a wussy bunch of candy assed hypocrites…
Then you and Trump spit on every American that was captured in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. I am sure you think that you all are real true blue patriots. I think that you are all a POS for spitting on these men and women that nobly served our country. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
If McCain is being called a war hero simply because he was a prisoner of war, then I agree with Trump. If someone is going to be singled out and called a "war hero", then they should have the Medal of Honor. McCain does not.
McCain was a spoiled chronic screw-up who got his way about everything and was pushed along because his father and grandfather were admirals. On his own merits he shouldn't even have been allowed to fly a kite instead of a jet fighter.
Of course Trump is right - McCain is not a war hero. However it seems somewhat hypocritical of him to throw stones from his glass house on this issue having never served in the military himself. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much What did Trump say about McCain that is untrue?
They're saying that being a prisoner of war does not make the person a war "hero". Let's reserve that designation for the true heroes.
So, are you saying that no one that has ever been in the military can be truthful about McCain? They can say nothing?
'It's a Bible,' he said, drawing wild cheers from the audience. He read from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, verse 48: 'From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded' – explaining it as a parable about America's global primacy and its obligations to keep its people, and the world, safe. Uh - no it isn't, you pandering gasbag. Unfortunately, I'm sure the rubes in the audience were completely taken in by this charlatan. What is it with politicians trying to use the bible as justification for more war and empire building? The guy is completely twisting Christ's words to push his own agenda. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much I'm saying that Trump would have more credibility if he himself had indeed served in the military. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much
SOSO must have been raised in the environment of "everyone's a winner" and "I'm special" and "it's OK as long as you tried". In his world, everyone's a hero -- dads, policemen, firemen, the military, kids in the hospital, women with cancer, astronauts, Caitlin Jenner -- they're all heroes. If you say they're not, then by God you're spitting on their bravery.
Moral Values is defined as: I for one am tired on career politicians who “conform to established sanctioned codes or accept notions others think are right and wrong.” I want a person who speaks his mind in straight talk and makes decision on not what is PC, but what is best for America. Donald Trump is that person….and I want Donald Trump for president.
Apparently, his low standing in his graduating class was deserved. It's always important to remember McStain was no ordinary recruit. He was military royalty, with bases named after his grandfather, John Sydney McCain and his father, John Sydney McCain II.
Lindsey Graham served in the military, does he have more credibility with you?
Donald Trump is that person….and I want Donald Trump for president. You sure about that? Donald Trump’s View on Cannabis Donald Trump has never smoked marijuana. The Donald says if he is elected President he would legalize drugs and use tax revenue to fund drug education. Trump argued in 1990 that the only way to win the War on Drugs was to legalize drugs and use the tax revenue to fund drug education programs. As he put it, “You have to take the profit away from these drug czars.” In his 2000 book, The America We Deserve, he stated that he’d never tried drugs “of any kind.” Trump would legalize and tax drugs but this doesn’t mean he approves of the use. He fired Miss USA crown winner due to drug over-indulgence. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much As far as I'm concerned, Graham has no credibility whatsoever, whether he served in the military or not. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much He was 894 out of 899, if memory serves me well. True.
Lindsey Graham served in the military, does he have more credibility with you? As far as I'm concerned, Graham has no credibility whatsoever, whether he served in the military or not. So, just because someone served in the military does not mean they have credibility. Conversely, someone need not serve in the military to have credibility. Got it...
No one will ever be the perfect candidate for someone, everyone has stated that in one way or the other. I can bite the bullet and live with Trump "legalizing drugs and use tax revenue to fund drug education" if I can see him elected as president.
When someone like Trump finds a winky, winky BS rich guy way to evade the draft, no he doesn't have any standing to critize the war record of anyone that honorably served when called - especially those that suffered unspeakable abuse at the hands of the enemy as a prisoner. I am not a fan of McCain. I thought that he was a terrible choice to represent the REP as it presidential candidate. But he answered the bell and put himself in harms ways when he easily could have gotten a much safer assignment given that both his father and grandfather admirals (I believe both 4 star). The story, whihc no-one has challenged is that McCain was badly wounded from ejecting from his plane when shot down, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information. He was then given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral. He almost assuredly could have recieved preferential treatment had he cooperated with the enemy but he didn't. In fact he spent the last couple of years in captivity in solitary confinement. I don't know about you but I'd called that herpic. What did Trump do in the war? You BS arm chair patriots make me puke when you pull crap like this. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And you must have been raised in the environment where ignornance and duplicity are worshipped. Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war. Tell me that you would have 1/10th the balls and courage that he had to endure that torture when he was offered an easy way out by the enemy. Get back to me when you grow a pair. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Even GW Bush stepped forward to join the national guard (although he was high on drugs and cocaine) ... some commander in chief he was, sending troops into Iraq for no good reason at all. Do you think I would vote for Trump whom just gives lip service? HELL no.
It is not surprising that a pig worships other pigs. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And the problem and downside here for Trump is...WHAT AGAIN?? The GOPe muppets who failed to show are LOSERS. John McStain is NOT a "hero" by any definition. NOR particularly a very credible and truthful person. EVER in his life. McStain's account and involvement in the tragedy aboard the carrier Forrestal is not only suspect, but suggests the evidence is rather indicting that he cost lives. McStain abandoned his first wife when he discovered she was hurt badly in terrible car accident...WHILE SHE WAITED FOE HIM. McStain's bail out of his jet -- which led to his imprisonment as the coddled son of a Navy admiral -- was all his own doing. He was a clown of a pilot by most accounts of his peers. He parlayed his so-called "heroism," dramatic emotional photo op return as a POW, his father's influence, and incredible luck (i.e. selling his soul) into a career as an establishment Republican, tool of special interest, illegal invasion advocate, and enemy of conservatism. McStain's photo ops and actual meetings in Syria with known terrorists and operatives implicate him as a collaborator and tool of 0buma's warped Middle East policies McStain purposely LOST the 2008 election to 0buma. He then demonstrated his disloyalty and dishonor by NOT defending Sarah Palin when it was obvious HIS campaign staff was undermining her personally and professionally. McStain repeatably foiled conservative policies as a Senator while enabling Democrat policies. I could go on... Donald Trump is 100% right about the fecklessness and fake creds of John McStain, who is nothing but a weaselly Dem-globalist operative and traitor to America. To which I say to Trump: PILE IT ON and run up the score. The fact that Trump did NOT serve in the military is...IRRELEVANT to leading America NOT toward the NWO vision of the GOPe elites or Dems, but toward the vision of the Founders.
Balls, courage, bravery, patriotism ... all that and then some. But that doesn't make him a "war hero", and that's all Trump was saying.
Trump is a failure as a man on so many levels. What man would would say this about his wife Marla Maples: ""You know, it really doesn't matter what [the media] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of ass."" потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
HA! Rick WHO?? I call for an immediate end the illegal-loving mGOPe muppet and feckless Governor Guardasil's DOA campaign.
What color is that Kool Aid you are drinking? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Tell me that you would have 1/10th the balls and courage that he had to endure that torture when he was offered an easy way out by the enemy. We ALL have read different narratives of McCain as a POW -- many are NOT very favorable. He joined tens of thousands as a POW. He was treated better than most because his famous daddy made Johnny boy's ordeal better than most. Today is all that matters: John McStain is a filthy traitor.
I think we should return him to the Vietnamese. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Bush signed up for a fun-filled flying country club that catered to the Texas socially prominent and political elite. In signing up for it you were assured of easy duty with no chance of combat. He never completed the terms of service. He was never in the real military.
Then deal with today. Trump is way out of line for his comments. And it is quote revealing about him and those that are commenting on LF in his favor. Name one thing that Trump has done for his country that wasn't for the purpose of lining his pockets. BTW, what did Trump do in the war? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Are you f*cking kidding? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And something said 25 years ago affects Trump's vision and leadership for America beyond that of YOUR GOPe muppet candidates HOW again?? Trump calls out the good ol' GOPe Boys Club for their usual collaboration, ineffectiveness, and coddling of 0buma/Democrats' leftist policies and agenda...and they are...defenselessness to offer any rebuttal. Heck -- McStain LOVES Hitlery. And what were his famous words about 0buma DURING his Presidential campaign?? McCain Booed For Calling 0buma A "Decent Man You Don't Have To Be Afraid Of"
No he's not. YOU are outta line for lecturing anybody on limitations of free speech and honesty during a campaign. THIS is why we're screwed -- EVERYBODY tip=toes around the truth: McStain is a traitor. Hitlery is a traitor. 0blabla is a traitor. Of course you find that line of plain truth outta line. Trump is telling it...LIKE IT IS. BTW, what did Trump do in the war? Irrelevant to which contrived bullsh*t war you're referring. Deal with today. Well...*I* am.
What have you done for your country that you refused money for? Coming here to annoy people like me for sport doesn't count.
It's always important to remember McStain was no ordinary recruit. He was military royalty, with bases named after his grandfather, John Sydney McCain and his father, John Sydney McCain II. Worth repeating.
He got off easy. He should have had his head chopped off for the defiant insult.
Unfortunately, I'm sure the rubes in the audience were completely taken in by this charlatan. What is it with politicians trying to use the bible as justification for more war and empire building? The guy is completely twisting Christ's words [and Bible] to push his own agenda. Good catch of Rubio's disingenuous pandering and using the Bible as a prop. The man is SICKENING. And yet another Open Borders/Pro-Amnesty candidate who believes he should be President. Haven't the last FOUR traitors infesting the 0val 0ffice been enough?
Obviously you believe that character doesn't matter. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I don't think they'd want him.
Annoying people like you is patriotism at its best. As far as what I have done for this country for no money or personal gain is a hell of a lot more than Trump. I have never bribed public officials for personal gain. I have never walked away from my debts leaving others to pay for them. Just to name a couple of things. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
BS. No-one is ever out of line when telling the Emperor that he has no clothes or pointing out the hypocrisy of the kettle calling the pot black. And you must be truly delusional to put the words honesty and campaign in the same sentence. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
And Trunp contributes money the the Billaries, Rahm Emanuel and other Drats. ANd he is defenseless in justifying his largess. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I ask you what you have done and you reply by telling me what you never have done. Brilliant!
In other words living one's life as a honest person that does not cheat or otherwise corrupt the government, does not walk away from his bills to leave others to pay (including what is owed to the government) in you world is not affrimated actions. Wow, how revealing of your personal sense of morality.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Not really, but McCain is a civilian bombing war criminal and his medals are spit worthy to me.
Then you and Trump spit on every American that was captured in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. Not really, but McCain is a civilian bombing war criminal and his medals are spit worthy to me. So you spit on every American pilot in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam War that dropped bombs that hit civilian. And every American gunner that hit a civilian facility. Okey dokey, Lance. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Wow, now I recognize where I met you before. You were the guy that was spitting on the Vietnam veterans as they returned home and calling them baby killers. You haven't changed a bit.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Heh... That crowd was close to tar and feathering the Stainmeister. Funny how no one remembers McCain's infamous loving words of 0buma -- that "he is a decent man/ You don't have to be afraid of." He's been a petty tyrant that EVERYONE has feared as though he were Hitler... THANKS, McSTAIN. THANKS, GOPe.
Wait -- so the definition of "character" can be erased by statements like "my hot wife" from 25 years ago? Trump didn't exactly say, "my b*tch is fine." Speaking of character, are you actually familiar with all the candidates??
Don't forget the stupid voters.
Are you f*cking kidding? Not a bit. Sonny did eventually receive some perks. That said, McStain was treated the way he treats members of the Tea Party. Like sh*t.
They had TWO choices in the end: 0blabla OR McStain. McStain's voters chose....Palin. What's stupid is accepting as the only options yet another Bush, this lineup of establishment Republican muppets, OR Hitlery.
We can't change the past system where corporations hedge their bet and donate to every side and political candidate. Do you support the illegal invasion, Sanctuary Cities, and Amnesty OR, a solution/reduction to the problem? If so, which of your preferred candidates earnestly supports this position?
But...but...what about Bubba Clinton and his shrewish wife, Hitlery? Aren't they two of your socialist heroes? Heck -- Hitlery was even fired upon disembarking from her 'Cankles I' jet in Bosnia? Or was it Muzzie-controlled Kosovo?
"There are plenty of other things to be concerned about. Terrorism - not so much." - Deckart
So McCains selling out to the highest bidder doesn't bother you Rick?? Now why doesn't that surprise me, what a panoche!! “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
Like so many others, rich and poor, Trump received student deferments while in college. I have no problem with anyone receiving a student deferment while in college. Do you, and if so….then why? October 1968, he was declared medically unfit to serve except "in time of national emergency," even though he had been declared fit to serve in 1966. The documents do not specify the reasons Trump was given a medical deferment. I find nowhere the specificity for his medical deferment. Have you, and If so….then please post the link for me so I can form an opinion as to the legitimacy of the action. BTW, I know what he said….but I don’t know the severity? I don’t know your definition of a “BS arm chair patriot.” However I do know the definition of a “patriot.” A patriot is defined as “a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.” I spent 24-years on continuous activity in the U.S. Air Force where I “vigorously supported our country and was always prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors” with my life….I am still prepared to do so, if necessary. Therefore, I consider myself a true patriot. How can you consider me a “BS arm chair patriot” solely because I support Trump? Also, why do you feel it is necessary to resort to attacking me personally….instead of debating the subject under discussion? I am sincerely interested in your answers.
If you think that Trump would actually do anything about these things if somehow he managed to P.T. Barnum his way into the WH you are truly delusional. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I will challenge the story and I will tell you why. I had friends who were shot down over Nam. Some were picked up by the “Jolly Green Giant.” One was shot while evading, as witnessed by the air cover. One was in Laos for a number of years and was almost missed in the repatriation. Another one was shot down over Hanoi ended up in the Hanoi Hilton. There but the Grace of God…. So, I will call not of their actions “heroic.” I simply say “there were doing their job. I have no doubt that each and every one of those individuals would say the same thing, if asked. Back to McCain, the “war hero who was tortured” - Two former POWs, Air Force Colonels Ted Guy (awarded the CMH) and Gordon “Swede” Larson, told the Phoenix New Times in 1999 that they doubted McCain was tortured or harmed while a prisoner. Both Guy and Larson were senior ranking officers in McCain’s POW camp at a time he claims he was in solitary confinement and being tortured. “Between the two of us, it’s our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in (the Plantation),” Larson stated. “My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at the Plantation, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp.” 1
Can you possibly be more dishonest? He got way more than a deferment he eventually got a medical pass. You say you couldn't find anything about Trump's dferment and draft history. Really? I found this in less than 10 seconds of a google search. "By the time his number (356) was drawn during the December 1, 1969 draft lottery, Trump had already received four student deferments and a medical deferment, according to military records on file with the National Archives and Records Administration. An extract of Trump’s Selective Classification record, seen here, was provided in response to a TSG records request. In fact, the December 1969 draft lottery occurred about 18 months after Trump graduated from the University of Pennsylvania, where he studied business at the Wharton School. So, while claiming that he would “never forget” being at Wharton watching the draft numbers being drawn, the 64-year-old Trump seems to have misremembered, as candidates are fond of saying. Trump obtained his first two Class 2-S student deferments in June 1964 and December 1965, when he was student at Fordham University in the Bronx. He was briefly reclassified as 1-A--or "available for military service"--in late- November 1966, but that classification was switched back to 2-S three weeks later. Another 2-S deferment is dated January 16, 1968, just months before his graduation from UPenn (to which he transferred following his sophomore year at Fordham). Following his UPenn graduation, Trump--no longer qualified for a 2-S deferment-- was again briefly classified as available for service on July 9. However, three months later, on October 15, his classification was switched to 1-Y, which was given to men deemed qualified for military service “only in time of national emergency.” The 1-Y classification came a month after Trump underwent an “Armed Forces Physical Examination,” according to Selective Service records, which note the results of the exam as “DISQ.” While the military records do not further detail why Trump was granted the 1-Y deferment, a 1992 biography of the businessman by journalist Wayne Barrett reported that Trump received a medical deferment following the September 17, 1968 exam. Trump’s 1-Y classification stayed in effect until February 1, 1972 when it was changed to a 4-F classification (which covered registrants not qualified for military service). The change in classification was likely prompted by the military’s December 1971 decision to abolish the 1-Y classification." You say that you have no problem with anyone receiving a student deferment while in college and asked if I did. I didn't, even if someone became a career student to avoid being drafted. I had a deferement for my undergraduate engineering degree then a critical skills deferment until the lottery system was instituted. I didn't have the money to continue on as a full time graduate student though I did get my MS degree while being fully employed going to school at nights. I was fully eligible for the draft for about three years after the critical skill deferments were ended. Donald Trump escalated his feud with Sen. John McCain on Saturady in Iowa by suggesting only his capture and five years as a prisoner of war turned him into a 'war hero.'
#2. To: cranky (#0)
Trump couldn't remember which foot had the bone spur that brought his medical deferment from the Vietnam draft
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#3. To: SOSO (#1)
#4. To: Deckard (#2)
Kinda like Limbaugh and his anal cyst that got him his deferment.
#5. To: SOSO (#1)
#6. To: All (#0)
(Edited)
#7. To: Deckard (#2)
As much as I despise McStain, at least he served.
#8. To: Gatlin (#7)
(Edited)
Do you say that McCain is a war hero?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#9. To: Deckard, A K A Stone (#8)
Do you say that McCain is a war hero?
My views on McCain have been posted on numerous occasions.
I agree with Stone - he's a traitorous POS.
Since you say that he is a traitorous POS, then he is no war hero.
Thank you.
#10. To: cranky, A.K. Stone, SOSO, Deckard, Gatlin (#0)
#11. To: SOSO (#1)
That's your boy. You must be so proud of him.
#12. To: cranky, A K A Stone, All (#0)
McCain spent years in a Viet Cong prison after the plane he was flying was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967.
McCain failed to follow instructions in combat. He did not try to evade the missile. Moreover, the pilots who were flying near him, one of them with a handheld camera, said he was not hit by a SAM. He had flown too low and was brought down by a barrage of antiaircraft fire. Since a SAM exploded in a bright orange fireball visible for miles around, it was unlikely that they had called it wrong. And since official navy records listed John McCain as downed by AAA fire, they were puzzled by why he later insisted in his political campaigns that it was a SAM.
He was tortured enough to produce permanent physical disabilities.
His war wounds left him with lifelong physical limitations.
McCain also made another error in the next four to six seconds after he was hit. He failed to use the proper procedure he had been taught for ejecting. As a result, he injured himself critically, breaking both arms and his right leg.
#13. To: A K A Stone (#5)
What do you disagree with?
#14. To: A K A Stone (#3)
Trump is right.
#15. To: Pericles, cranky, A.K. Stone, Deckard, Gatlin (#10)
McCain is...............not a war hero for being captured and I spit on his worthless Vietnam medals.
#16. To: cranky (#0)
#17. To: cranky (#0)
John McCain wasn't a war hero
#18. To: Gatlin, A K A Stone, SOSO (#14)
Naturally, if they now come on and admit that McCain is no war hero….then they will be admitting Trump is right.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#19. To: SOSO, A K A Stone (#13)
A guy that slings sh*t at those who served in Vietnam.
#20. To: SOSO (#15)
"Then you and Trump spit on every American that was captured in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam."
#21. To: Deckard, A K A Stone, SOSO (#18)
However it seems somewhat hypocritical of him to throw stones from his glass house on this issue having never served in the military himself.
#22. To: cranky (#0)
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, the day's first candidate-speaker, wrapped up his time on stage in a Q&A with pollster Frank Luntz by asking if he could read aloud from a book.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#23. To: Gatlin (#21)
So, are you saying that no one that has ever been in the military can be truthful about McCain?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#24. To: cranky (#0)
Trump clarified: 'I have great respect for
all those who serve in our military
including those that weren’t captured
and are also heroes'
‹/rimshot›
#25. To: Gatlin, SOSO (#19)
#26. To: SOSO (#13)
A guy with the moral values...
Moral, ethical, virtuous, righteous, noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong.
#27. To: Gatlin (#12)
McCain also made another error in the next four to six seconds after he was hit. He failed to use the proper procedure he had been taught for ejecting. As a result, he injured himself critically, breaking both arms and his right leg.
#28. To: Deckard (#23)
I'm saying that Trump would have more credibility if he himself had indeed served in the military.
#29. To: Gatlin (#26)
I want a person who speaks his mind in straight talk and makes decision on not what is PC, but what is best for America.
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#30. To: Gatlin (#28)
(Edited)
Lindsey Graham served in the military, does he have more credibility with you?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#31. To: TooConservative (#27)
Apparently, his low standing in his graduating class was deserved.
It's always important to remember McStain was no ordinary recruit. He was military royalty, with bases named after his grandfather, John Sydney McCain and his father, John Sydney McCain II.
#32. To: Deckard (#30)
#33. To: Deckard (#29)
#34. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#21)
So, are you saying that no one that has ever been in the military can be truthful about McCain? They can say nothing?
#35. To: misterwhite (#25)
SOSO must have been raised in the environment of "everyone's a winner" and "I'm special" and "it's OK as long as you tried".
#36. To: SOSO (#34)
#37. To: Gatlin (#26)
I for one am tired on career politicians who “conform to established sanctioned codes or accept notions others think are right and wrong.”
#38. To: cranky (#0)
[Donald Trump] blasted John McCain on stage in Iowa for calling his Phoenix audience 'crazies,' and denied he was a war hero because the North Vietnamese captured him.
#39. To: SOSO (#35)
"Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war. Tell me that you would have 1/10th the balls and courage that he had to endure that torture when he was offered an easy way out by the enemy."
#40. To: buckeroo (#36)
Do you think I would vote for Trump whom just gives lip service? HELL no.
#41. To: cranky (#0)
Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who is running 10th in an average of national polls, immediately called for Trump to quit his presidential campaign.
#42. To: misterwhite (#39)
But that doesn't make him a "war hero", and that's all Trump was saying.
#43. To: SOSO, misterwhite (#35)
Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war.
#44. To: Liberator (#43)
Today is all that matters: John McStain is a filthy traitor.
#45. To: buckeroo (#36)
(Edited)
Even GW Bush stepped forward to join the national guard
#46. To: Liberator (#43)
Today is all that matters: .....................................
#47. To: Liberator (#43)
He was treated better than most because his famous daddy made Johnny boy's ordeal better than most.
#48. To: SOSO, ALL (#40)
(Edited)
Trump is a failure as a man on so many levels. What man would would say this about his wife Marla Maples: ""You know, it really doesn't matter what [the media] write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of ass.""
"I have to tell you, I have to tell you, he [0buma] is a decent family man, and a person that you do not have to be scared as President of the United States."
~ John McCain
#49. To: SOSO (#46)
Trump is way out of line for his comments.
#50. To: SOSO (#46)
Name one thing that Trump has done for his country that wasn't for the purpose of lining his pockets.
#51. To: TooConservative (#27)
Apparently, his low standing in his graduating class was deserved.
#52. To: Liberator (#48)
McCain Booed For Calling 0buma A "Decent Man You Don't Have To Be Afraid Of"
#53. To: Deckard (#22)
[Rubio], you pandering gasbag.
#54. To: Liberator (#48)
And something said 25 years ago affects Trump's vision and leadership for America beyond that of YOUR GOPe muppet candidates HOW again??
#55. To: GrandIsland (#44)
I think we should return him to the Vietnamese.
#56. To: rlk (#50)
Coming here to annoy people like me for sport doesn't count.
#57. To: Liberator (#49)
YOU are outta line for lecturing anybody on limitations of free speech and honesty during a campaign.
#58. To: Liberator, All (#48)
Trump calls out the good ol' GOPe Boys Club for their usual collaboration, ineffectiveness, and coddling of 0buma/Democrats' leftist policies and agenda...and they are...defenselessness to offer any rebuttal.
#59. To: SOSO (#56)
I have never bribed public officials for personal gain. I have never walked away from my debts leaving others to pay for them. Just to name a couple of things.
#60. To: rlk (#59)
#61. To: SOSO (#15)
Then you and Trump spit on every American that was captured in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam.
#62. To: Pericles (#61)
#63. To: Pericles (#61)
#64. To: rlk (#52)
He got off easy. He should have had his head chopped off for the defiant insult.
#65. To: SOSO (#54)
Obviously you believe that character doesn't matter.
#66. To: Liberator (#64)
THANKS, McSTAIN. THANKS, GOPe.
#67. To: SOSO (#47)
(He was treated better than most because his famous daddy made Johnny boy's ordeal better than most.)
#68. To: buckeroo (#66)
Don't forget the stupid voters.
#69. To: SOSO (#58)
And Trunp contributes money the the Billaries, Rahm Emanuel and other Drats. ANd he is defenseless in justifying his largess.
#70. To: Pericles (#61)
McCain is a civilian bombing war criminal
#71. To: SOSO, McCain is no hero (#63)
#72. To: cranky (#0)
'I respect Sen. McCain because he volunteered to serve his country,' Perry said in a statement. 'I cannot say the same of Mr. Trump.'
#73. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#34)
When someone like Trump finds a winky, winky BS rich guy way to evade the draft…
According to his Selective Service records, first obtained by the website The Smoking Gun through a Freedom of Information Act request, Trump received four student deferments between 1964 and 1968 while in college and an additional medical deferment after graduating.
You BS arm chair patriots make me puke when you pull crap like this.
#74. To: Liberator (#69)
Do you support the illegal invasion, Sanctuary Cities, and Amnesty OR, a solution/reduction to the problem?
#75. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#34)
The story, whihc no-one has challenged is that McCain was badly wounded from ejecting from his plane when shot down, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information. He was then given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral. He almost assuredly could have recieved preferential treatment had he cooperated with the enemy but he didn't. In fact he spent the last couple of years in captivity in solitary confinement. I don't know about you but I'd called that herpic.
As a POW, willingly provided so much intelligence – admittedly, bits of it false – and co-operated so extensively with the North Vietnamese in exchange for favorable treatment over a three-year period that his fellow prisoners at the Hanoi Hilton gave him the derisive nickname “Songbird.” In propaganda aimed at the US, the North Vietnamese even used his nickname in a news release about McCain, not understanding it was an insult given him by prisoners who were disgusted by his behavior.
#76. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#73)
Like so many others, rich and poor, Trump received student deferments while in college. I have no problem with anyone receiving a student deferment while in college. Do you, and if so….then why?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#77. To: SOSO, Pericles (#63)
Considered an urban legend. No one can ever cite a single instance, find any victims or witnesses to spitting on the Vietnam vets. Do you know of any documented cases? Wiki: The Spitting Image, documentary You were the guy that was spitting on the Vietnam veterans as they returned home and calling them baby killers. You haven't changed a bit.
#78. To: Gatlin (#75)
Of course they wouldn't but I certainly would. So, I will call not of their actions “heroic.” I simply say “there were doing their job. I have no doubt that each and every one of those individuals would say the same thing, if asked.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#79. To: Liberator (#65)
You might recall the story about McStain, after the 2008 election, when his wife Cindy was offered a chance to appear on Dancing With The Stars (being so pretty) and he started screaming at her and calling her a cunt. In public, in front of his staff. Classy guy. Trump didn't exactly say, "my b*tch is fine."
#80. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#35)
Which story? McCain’s story or the stories by other POWs, including the Senior Ranking Officer? Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war.
Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war.
#81. To: Gatlin (#73)
Who did he think he was, Dick Cheney? I seem to recall Cheney wangled 5 deferments. According to his Selective Service records, first obtained by the website The Smoking Gun through a Freedom of Information Act request, Trump received four student deferments between 1964 and 1968 while in college and an additional medical deferment after graduating.
#82. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#37)
Why do you find it necessary to use personal insults? It is not surprising that a pig worships other pigs.
#83. To: misterwhite, SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist (#39)
But that doesn't make him a "war hero", and that's all Trump was saying. EXACTLY! Why did McCain have his POW records sealed? A question yet unanswered....after all these years.
#84. To: Gatlin (#75) (Edited)
Yeah but didn't the top ranking POW officer in the camps vouch for McStain's conduct and suffering back in 2008? It seemed he was considered authoritative and we heard no more from the bashers about Stain's POW record again. Wiki: Colonel Bud Day Two former POWs, Air Force Colonels Ted Guy (awarded the CMH) and Gordon “Swede” Larson, told the Phoenix New Times in 1999 that they doubted McCain was tortured or harmed while a prisoner. Both Guy and Larson were senior ranking officers in McCain’s POW camp at a time he claims he was in solitary confinement and being tortured. “Between the two of us, it’s our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in (the Plantation),” Larson stated.
Five years as a POW, most of them he was roommates with the Stain. Day was also part of the Swift Boat posse that went after Kerry in 2004.
George Everett "Bud" Day (24 February 1925 – 27 July 2013) was a United States Air Force colonel and pilot who served during World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, including five years and seven months as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam. Day was a recipient of the Medal of Honor and the Air Force Cross. As of 2013, he is the only person to be awarded both medals.
#85. To: TooConservative (#77)
"Myth: That in reality the stories of returning soldiers being spat at or upon was made up by Far Right extremists as a way to smear the antiwar movement Fact: Cases of being spit on have been documented in numerous contemporaneous news articles and in a Dec 27, 1971 CBS TV interview of a returning combat medic, Delmar Pickett, Jr. In fact, spitting on troops was so common that the National Guard was specifically trained not to react to spitting. Professor Jerry Lembcke wrote "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" which concluded that the spitting stories were a myth. Lembcke didn't bother to reveal that he was a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and was a Marxist and an anti-war activist who had an agenda in publishing his book. Lembcke's "proof" that spitting didn't occur was soundly debunked by Jim Lindgren of Volokh Conspiracy, including proof that he lied about several things he stated in his book. Contemporaneous documentation has been found in the (PA) Bucks County Courier Times, New York Times, the Pomona Progress Bulletin, the Associated Press, the Panama News, the Washington Post and the Odessa American, among others. According to a August 27, 1967 New York Times article, written by Neil Sheehan, National Guardsmen were trained to endure spitting by being spat upon during training. According to a December 27, 1969 Washington Post article, an SNCC official urged protestors to spit on the President "as a tactic of protesting the Vietnam War". At least one former anti-war protestor has admitted to spitting on soldiers during his protesting days. Spitting on National Guardsmen at the 1968 Democratic Convention was documented by the Walker Report, a government-commissioned report on the protests as well as the Daley report, commissioned by Chicago Mayor Richard Daley. Even Congressional Medal of Honor winners were spat on and insulted. In one documented instance, a WWII CMOH winner, James Conners, decked a protestor who was yelling "killer, killer" at him. One prominent anti-war protestor, Congressman Allard Lowenstein, implored students who opposed the war, in a May 14, 1969 article in the Washington Post, to stop all the spitting. One of the most prominent protestors of all, Tom Hayden, was arrested for spitting on a police detective during the Chicago Democratic Convention. Bob Greene's "Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned from Vietnam" documents the stories of vets that testify to being spat on or disrespected in other ways when returning to the States. In some cases, even veterans of previous wars turned their backs on Vietnam vets. There are numerous stories of the VFW and American Legion refusing to accept membership applications from Vietnam vets. Soldiers returning to Oakland were warned about protestors and body searched for weapons before they were exposed to them, because there had been incidents of violence priot to the policy change. It is self-evident, from the many recent Welcome Home parades for Vietnam vets, that Vietnam vets were not welcomed home when they returned. Do you know of any documented cases?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#86. To: Gatlin (#82)
Why are you offended when others emulate your hero Trump? Why do you find it necessary to use personal insults?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#87. To: SOSO. Liberator, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite (#47) (Edited)
Are you f*cking kidding? No, he definitely is not f*cking kidding. I challenge you to provide one witness statement to show McCain's supposed "torture" at the hands of his jailers. He was treated better than most because his famous daddy made Johnny boy's ordeal better than most.
#88. To: SOSO (#86)
Why do you find it necessary to use personal insults? Please answer the question I asked.
#89. To: Percy Misanthrope, Liberator, CZ82 (#71) (Edited)
Mr. Dornan with his F-100 in 1957, with his name on the side. http://www.bobdornan.com/photo01.html B-1 Bob Dornan knows, McCain is a POS! 
#90. To: SOSO (#63)
That was before my time and no one actually spat on any American Vietnam vets - even those baby killers that may have deserved it - that was a urban myth. Wow, now I recognize where I met you before. You were the guy that was spitting on the Vietnam veterans as they returned home and calling them baby killers. You haven't changed a bit.
#91. To: Liberator (#70)
I have repeatedly called the Clintons war criminals for what Bill did in Yugoslavia and what Hillary did in Libya - what the fuck is wrong with you that you keep thinking I am defending the Clintons? And that asshole war criminal scumbag Bush, jr recognized Kosovo as an independent country. But...but...what about Bubba Clinton and his shrewish wife, Hitlery? Aren't they two of your socialist heroes? Heck -- Hitlery was even fired upon disembarking from her 'Cankles I' jet in Bosnia? Or was it Muzzie-controlled Kosovo?
#92. To: SOSO (#85)
When you follow the links and read the stories, there are very few actual victims or witnesses in these stories. It's like reading through the links from InfoWars or PrisonPlanet stories: you find that the linked material used to support the main story aren't true or are greatly overstated. I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned. Check.
#93. To: hondo68 (#89)
I wish they'd bring him back as a military correspondent on Fox News. He made every story more exciting, usually by saying something really wild. B-1 Bob Dornan knows...
#94. To: Percy Misanthrope, SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator (#71)
The consensus opinion of other POWs in McCain's camps was that McCain was NEVER tortured by the North Vietnamese. 1
#95. To: SOSO, TooConservative (#77)
No one can ever cite a single instance, find any victims or witnesses to spitting on the Vietnam vets. Do you know of any documented cases? I just stated it is an urban legend, also before I read your comment. It seems an expression (they disrespected us = spit on us) became actual incidents of spitting in urban legend tellings but even disrespecting of vets was not the norm. In any case, the USA killed over a million Vietnamese - 90+% if which were civilians and poisoned their country with Agent Orange. Most of the civilians killed were by the air forces. That is a post WW2 war crime. Considered an urban legend.
#96. To: SOSO, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator, Percy Misanthrope, (#76)
You have made the charge. Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it! Can you possibly be more dishonest? He got way more than a deferment he eventually got a medical pass.
#97. To: TooConservative, SOSO (#92)
I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned. It had to do with the Vietnam vets were super badasses movies of the 80s from Rambo to Chuck Norris to Oliver Stone's movie. The general consensus was the nation was making up for all the metaphorical spitting aka disrespecting of the Vietnam era troops. Also, this was the era where the POW/MIA myth came about - the myth being the Commies were holding Americans in bamboo tiger cages for some reason. All proven fake long ago but the POW/MIA flags still fly all over the place. There was no - repeat - no POW/MIAs held after the fact as some sort of commie plot. When you follow the links and read the stories, there are very few actual victims or witnesses in these stories. It's like reading through the links from InfoWars or PrisonPlanet stories: you find that the linked material used to support the main story aren't true or are greatly overstated.
#98. To: hondo68 (#89)
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/a-clockwork-orange/b1-bob-vs-maverick-1/ B-1 Bob Dornan knows, McCain is a POS!
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#99. To: SOSO (#78)
Then you are merely stating an unqualified personal opinion, which of course you are entitled to do. I respect that, but I prefer to listen tp someone "who has been there and personally knows people who have done that." Of course they wouldn't but I certainly would.
#100. To: hondo68 (#89)
Republicans Allege McCain Covered Up His Collaboration with the North Vietnamese While a POW Allegations resurface that McCain made propaganda statements and tried to keep Viet Cong records about him classified. AlterNet September 20, 2008 Print COMMENT NOW! A 1992 video featuring a Republican senator, Republican congressman and top Capitol Hill staffers who worked on Vietnam prisoner of war and missing in action issues say John McCain collaborated with North Vietnamese while a POW, and then covered up that involvement to the detriment of POW/MIA families seeking access to classified Pentagon records about their own family members. Watch the Video The video raises probing questions about the 2008 Republican presidential nominee's war record, especially after McCain made his captivity a major part of his qualifications for the presidency at the Republican National Convention. In 2004, the GOP focused on Democratic nominee John Kerry's war record to criticize his candidacy. To date, the video has been posted on a handful of blogs but has been ignored by the mainstream media. While it features Republican stalwarts on POW/MIA issues, it also suggests that McCain's war records at the Pentagon and in North Vietnam would reveal potentially very controversial details about the GOP's presidential candidate. The nearly eight-minute video is posted on YouTube under "Vietnam Veterans Against McCain." It begins with the title, "1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIAs," and features ex-Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH), Rep. Robert Dornan (R-CA), senate staffers Tracy Usry, James Lucier, and military family members Lynn O'Shea, of the National Alliance of Families and retired Army Cpl. Bob Dumas, whose brother was a POW lost in the Korean War, and Joseph Douglass, Jr., author of Betrayed, about America's missing POWs. The video has no author credits. The footage begins with Douglass, Usry, O'Shea and Smith all saying that McCain worked to kill legislation that would have opened the Pentagon's classified archive of POW/MIA files. "Many, many documents were held back for no reason," former Sen. Smith said. Dorman said legislation that passed the House with no opposing votes was single-handedly blocked in the Senate by McCain. "On the Senate side, we had one person standing in the way," Dornan said, referring to McCain. Dumas then gave the reason why - the Pentagon's records would reveal McCain had collaborated with the Vietnamese. "He didn't want nobody to check his background because a lot of POWs who were with him in the camp said he was a collaborator with the enemy," Dumas said. "He gave the enemy information they wanted." Lucier, identified as a former U.S. Senate Chief of Staff, said "we do know that when he was over there, he cooperated with Communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States." Usry, identified as U.S. Senate Minority Staff former chief investigator, said "information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese government." Dornan said there were transcripts of other POWs reacting to McCain's false statements, saying, "Oh my God, is that Admiral McCain's son Is that the admiral's son? Is that Johnny, telling us that our principle targets are schools, orphanages, hospitals, temples, churches? That was Jane Fonda's line." Dornan said those transcripts are in war museums in North Vietnam, where McCain, as a senator, pressured the country not to release them or face opposition concerning normalization of relations with the United States. "McCain could not have wanted those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race," the ex-congressman said. "He knows that. I know that. And a few other people know that. That's why he was against Bob Dole's legislation." Dornan then offered another interesting explanation why McCain refused an offer by the North Vietnamese to be released. Dornan said those released first were collaborators, which would have ended McCain's military career and hurt the Navy, where his father commanded the Pacific fleet. "Nobody takes that one step beyond that," Dornan said, speaking of McCain's refusal to be released. "If Admiral John McCain's son had accepted this princely status and come home in 1967, while others sat there for five years, what would the Navy have done with the son of an admiral who opted to get special treatment and come home? No Navy career. No House seat. No Senate seat. It would have been the end of his career." Steven Rosenfeld is a Senior Fellow at AlterNet.org, where he reports on elections from a voting rights perspective. His books include Count My Vote: A Citizen's Guide to Voting (AlterNet Books, 2008), What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election (The New Press, 2006), and Making History in Vermont: The Election of a Socialist to Congress (Hollowbrook Publishing, 1992). An award-winning journalist, he has been a staff reporter at National Public Radio, Monitor Radio, TomPaine.com, and at daily and weekly newspapers in Vermont.
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#101. To: Deckard (#2)
Third generation Annapolis. That should have guaranteed him an Admiral's flag. There's got to be a reason why he never got flag rank. As much as I despise McStain, at least he served.
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#102. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, cranky, nativist nationalist, misterwhite, Liberator, Percy, Misanthrope, (#96)
He couldn't remember which foot it was when just asked. Are you kidding? Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it!
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#103. To: SOSO (#76)
I don't see where it states what his medical deferment was for....do you? The important we need to find out if the deferment was valid....right? If it was not, then we can condemn him. On the other hand, if it was....then?
#104. To: SOSO (#102)
He couldn't remember which foot it was when just asked. Are you kidding? Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar? Are YOU kidding? There are many possible reasons he could not immediately remember....but of course you will never consider that, right? Therefore it is incumbent on you to prove his medical exemption was not a valid one. Do it!
#105. To: TooConservative (#92)
Becuase it took a long time after the war for people to stop treating and thinking of the Vietnam Vet like a POS. I clearly remember those days and how many of my acquaintenances freely expresswed their deep disquest at these vets. It was and remains a national embrassment. Few of these vets were enlisted men, most were drafted. They answered the call. They deserved much better treatment when they returned home. Save for the ones that broke down and committed autrocitites of their own, in my mind they are all heroes. I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on-troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#106. To: Gatlin (#104)
Reason #1: He is a lying sack of sh*t. All other possible reasons are of considerably less probability. There are many possible reasons he could not immediately remember....but of course you will never consider that, right?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#107. To: Gatlin (#104)
Are YOU kidding? Not at all. I still remember my lottery number. In fact, Trump still remembers his. I guess that was more memorable than the medical condition that got him totally out of the draft. Riiiiiiiight....................................... Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#108. To: TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#93)
I wish they'd bring him back as a military correspondent on Fox News. He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court? B-1 Bob Dornan
#109. To: SOSO (#35)
Boy; you RINO's are clueless. The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate. Your boy McCain worked hand in hand with his BFF Obama to arm the groups fighting the government of Syria, which proved indispensable to the rise of ISIS. Same thing in Libya. ISIS could never have reached the level of success they enjoy today with out the aid and comfort provided by your boy McCain. Your guy Jihad Johnny worked with Clinton to help establish an Islamic foothold in Kosovo. He lied about building "that danged fence." Jihad Johnny sides with the enemies of America. I really appreciate that Trump is driving you RINO bootlickers nuts. You guys have been stabbing America in the back, it is nice to see you guys suffer. Look up McCain's story as a prisoner of war. Tell me that you would have 1/10th the balls and courage that he had to endure that torture when he was offered an easy way out by the enemy.
#110. To: nativist nationalist (#109)
First, I am not a fan of McCain or many of his positions, so knock the stupid gratuitous attempts at a jab off. Second, I don't care if they like him or not. Third, I don't care why they may like him or why they may not. He served his country honorably during the Vietnam war and that's a whole lot more than anyone can say about Trump. The only people that Dollar Donald sides with are those that can line his pockets. And he doesn't care who they are, what they are, where they are from or even if they hate America. He'll sell America out faster than just about anyone if he can make money on the deal. Boy; you RINO's are clueless. The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#111. To: TooConservative, SOSO (#105)
The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam is a 1998 book by sociologist Jerry Lembcke. The book argues that the common claim that American soldiers were spat upon and insulted by anti-war protesters upon returning home from the Vietnam War is an urban legend intended to discredit the anti-war movement. I do recall first hearing these stories in the early Eighties and I wondered at the time why we were only hearing about this supposed widespread spitting-on- troops so long after the war was ended and even the draft dodgers got pardoned.
A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition to the war.
#112. To: Gatlin (#111) (Edited)
The last thing In the world I want to hear is testimony from a sociologist. For the last 60 years I have met damned few sociologists who weren't socialists with a mission. The same is true of social psychologists. They seem inclined to revise and distort history to support the left. The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam is a 1998 book by sociologist Jerry Lembcke.
#113. To: SOSO (#110)
BS; you're a big shill for the RINO establishment RNC types. Those A-hole have pissed all over rank and file voters for decades when it comes to illegal aliens and trade deals like NAFTA, WTO and Obamatrade. Before Trump ever made inroads with these voters you guys tossed their votes away. You guys think that peoples votes are some sort of entitlement program. You've got to earn votes, you don't get those votes by stabbing the same voters in the back. First, I am not a fan of McCain or many of his positions, so knock the stupid gratuitous attempts at a jab off. Second, I don't care if they like him or not.
#114. To: nativist nationalist, SOSO (#113)
Who does SOSO support?
#115. To: A K A Stone (#114)
From his posting history he seems to be most impressed by Hillary. I'm sure that if he cannot have Hillary, then Graham, Christy, Perry, Jeb or Rubio will give him 90% of what he expects to get from Hillary. Who does SOSO support?
#116. To: SOSO (#110)
BS, he bombed civilian villages from 30,000 feet and got shot down. He has been an enemy to this country since. He's no hero. Trump is the bull in the china shop where the GOP is planning their gay wedding dinner. Who cares if he's legit, he's exposing our enemies. McCain a hero.
"There are plenty of other things to be concerned about. Terrorism - not so much." - Deckart
#117. To: hondo68 (#108)
Troll much? He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court?
#118. To: TooConservative, hondo68 (#117)
He's the kind of works based Catholic we need on the Supreme Court? Troll much? That's all he does....isn't it?
#119. To: SOSO (#107) (Edited)
Are YOU kidding? Not at all. I still remember my lottery number. In fact, Trump still remembers his. I guess that was more memorable than the medical condition that got him totally out of the draft. Riiiiiiiight....................................... Some people just cannot sometimes instantly remember things in the heat of the moment. Let’s do a memory check on your hero, McCain: “I recognized the target sitting next to the small lake from the intelligence photographs I had studied,” John McCain recalled in Faith of My Fathers. “I dove in on it just as the tone went off signaling that a SAM was flying toward me. I knew I should roll out and fly evasive maneuvers. . .But I was just about to release my bombs when the tone sounded, and had I started jinking [maneuvering to evade the SAM] I would have never had the time nor, probably, the nerve to go back in once I had lost the SAM. So, at about 3,500 feet, I released my bombs, then pulled back the stick to begin a steep climb to a safer attitude. In the instant before my plane reacted, a SAM blew my right wing off. I was killed.” By his own admission, then, McCain failed to follow instructions in combat. He did not try to evade the missile. Moreover, the pilots who were flying near him, one of them with a handheld camera, said he was not hit by a SAM. He had flown too low and was brought down by a barrage of antiaircraft fire. Since a SAM exploded in a bright orange fireball visible for miles around, it was unlikely that they had called it wrong. And since official navy records listed John McCain as downed by AAA fire, they were puzzled by why he later insisted in his political campaigns that it was a SAM. As other pilots saw it, John McCain, quite simply, had got himself shot down. But McCain also made another error in the next four to six seconds after he was hit. He failed to use the proper procedure he had been taught for ejecting. As a result, he injured himself critically, breaking both arms and his right leg. McCain’s memory was not vivid enough for him to remember to follow his training and “break” when he should have. So, he admitted that he got his ass shot down. Then his memory failed again when he did not use proper ejection procedures and busted himself up. These “Rote Memory” procedures are embedded in your memory for instant recall. I know of one guy who scared the Hell out of his wife when he sat straight up in bed one night and screamed, “BREAK RIGHT, BREAK RIGHT” when having a bad dream. So, I guess that McCain’s loss of memory that got him shot down and severely injured during ejection is okay with you while you condemn Trump’s momentarily loss of memory. Riiiiiiiight.......................................? John McCain is no hero. John McCain simply did what he was trained to do....but sometimes forgot to do, when his memory failed him. Because he couldn't immediately remember which foot it was....that makes him a liar?
#120. To: cranky (#0)
To be captured means to be a hero!
#121. To: Gatlin, hondo68 (#118) (Edited)
Not really. I just saw no reason to try to drag a heated exchange from another thread (about the USSC and Catholic justices appointed by GOP presidents) into a thread about Trump/McCain. Notice he flagged Vic to it as well. Where's the connection to this thread? Well, there isn't any. That's all he does....isn't it?
#122. To: TooConservative, gatlin, tater (#121)
Yeah, there's none. I just threw that in because Bob Dornan seems like an example of a good Catholic. There's a lot of Catholic bashing around here, but trolling might not be a good response. Sorry. Gatlin's evil couch Catholics Where's the connection to this thread?
#123. To: A Pole (#120)
The press is not used to candidates hitting back hard. McCain called Trump's supporters "crazies". Trump was not going to let that stand, so he said that being a POW does not make one a "war hero". He's right. It's just that you're not supposed to say that. Fine. Then don't call Trump's supporters "crazies". Quite frankly, I want a guy like that as President. I think this country needs a guy like that as President. "To be captured means to be a hero!"
#124. To: SOSO, A K A Stone (#13)
Have you taken a close look at McCain’s moral values? I think not, let’s do so now. The wife U.S. Republican John McCain callously left behind. … to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with whom he has four children. And you, SOSO, will condemn “a guy (Trump) with the moral values to call his future wife to the national press a great piece of ass” while you give a free pass to McCain on his “moral values” and call him a hero. Aren’t you being grossly hypocritical? It surely looks like you are. What do you disagree with?
A guy with the moral values to call his future wife to the national press a great piece of ass.
[…]
But here is another Mrs. McCain…she is McCain’s first wife, Carol, who was a famous beauty and a successful swimwear model when they married in 1965. She was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam’s infamous ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news.
[…]
But when McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier.
[…]
For nearly 30 years, Carol has maintained a dignified silence about the accident, McCain and their divorce. But last week at the bungalow where she now lives at Virginia Beach, a faded seaside resort 200 miles south of Washington, she told The Mail on Sunday how McCain divorced her in 1980 and married Cindy, 18 years his junior and the heir to an Arizona brewing fortune, just one month later.
[…]
‘My marriage ended because John McCain didn’t want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does.’ Some of McCain’s acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centred womaniser who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to ‘play the field’. They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen, for financial reasons…. his new father-in-law, Jim Hensley, was a multi-millionaire who had impeccable political connections.
[…]
Carol was told she may never walk again, but when doctors said they would try to get word to McCain about her injuries, she refused, insisting: ‘He’s got enough problems, I don’t want to tell him.’ H. Ross Perot, a billionaire Texas businessman, future presidential candidate and advocate of prisoners of war, paid for her medical care. When McCain…was released in March 1973, he told reporters he was overjoyed to see Carol again. But friends say privately he was ‘appalled’ by the change in her appearance. At first, though, he was kind, assuring her: ‘I don’t look so good myself. It’s fine.’
[…]
‘I thought, of course, we would live happily ever after,’ says Carol. But as a war hero, McCain was moving in ever-more elevated circles. Through Ross Perot, he met Ronald Reagan, then Governor of California. A sympathetic Nancy Reagan took Carol under her wing. But already the McCains’ marriage had begun to fray. ‘John started carousing and running around with women,’ said Robert Timberg. McCain has acknowledged that he had girlfriends during this time, without going into details.
[…]
He was also fiercely ambitious, but it was clear he would never become an admiral like his illustrious father and grandfather and his thoughts were turning to politics. In 1979 – while still married to Carol – he met Cindy at a cocktail party in Hawaii. Over the next six months he pursued her, flying around the country to see her. Then he began to push to end his marriage. Carol and her children were devastated.
[…]
Meanwhile McCain moved to Arizona with his new bride immediately after their 1980 marriage. There, his new father-in-law gave him a job and introduced him to local businessmen and political powerbrokers who would smooth his passage to Washington via the House of Representatives and Senate.
[…]
And yet despite his popularity as a politician, there are those who won’t forget his treatment of his first wife. Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans’ rights, said: ‘I have been following John McCain’s career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is – deceit. ‘When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it. ‘Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better. ‘This is a guy who makes such a big deal about his character. He has no character. He is a fake. If there was any character in that first marriage, it all belonged to Carol.’
[…]
Ross Perot, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel – even by the standards of modern politics. ‘McCain is the classic opportunist. He’s always reaching for attention and glory,’ he said. ‘After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona. And the rest is history.’
#125. To: hondo68 (#108)
"Works"...are not deeds. They're mitzvot under Torah. Specifically, works are: first fruits tithes, regular tithes, shekel head tax, making a grain or meat peace offering, making a grain our meat goodwill offering, having a libation poured out to the Lord; salting grain and incense; washing cups and plates and utensils; taking and keeping a Nazirite vow. Those are the "works" to which Paul referred, that are unavailing. They are thoroughly distinguishable from "acts" or "deeds", required by Jesus, the performance or non- performance of which are requisites for acceptability by God. You cannot gain salvation by paying a shekel to the Temple and sactificing a flock of lambs and ten thousand rivers of oil. Those are works under the law, mitzvot, and they do not avail you. On the other hand, if you have, and you ignore the naked, the beggar, the hungry and homeless, if you turn up your nose and refuse to help, and condemn, then you have failed to do the deeds that Jesus required, and you have done deeds that will get you damned. Jesus said that as you treated the least of these, you shall be treated. Martin Luther and his followers completely failed to understand the meaning of mitzvot/works, and taught the ridiculous idea that what you DO is a "work", and that what you DO doesn't matter because Paul (not Jesus, JUST Paul, in only one or two places) said that works are nothing. Well, sacrifices and oil and libation and Temple Tax really IS all nothing - the Temple is gone. But what you DO, your DEEDS, ALWAYS mattered, and always will. Jesus said so. John said so. James said so. Peter said so. And Paul said so too, throughout what he wrote. The sentence or two referring to mitzvot under the law applied to just precisely that, which Luther and his ilk didn't even understand. Jesus judges men on their DEEDS. He repeated that dozens of time. Even if Paul DID mean "deeds" when he wrote "works" (he did not - "works" are mitzvot under the law, and nothing else. Deeds are not works, unless they are codified by the Torah - only negative one are: don't kill, for example), then Paul must be disregarded, for he was a man, and a mere man cannot in two sentences override pages and pages of direct statements by God Incarnate. Deeds-based Christians are the only real Christians. Christians who say that what you do does not matter are illiterate, blind and stubborn fools. Jesus spoke about that sort.
#126. To: hondo68 (#122)
Mr. Grinch and the Mouth of Sauron, together at last. What a picture.
#127. To: Vicomte13 (#125)
With all due respect, Jesus judges mens' heart. Jesus judges men on their DEEDS.
#128. To: Liberator (#127)
I think Vic is correct. Because if in your heart you are thinking of sinning but you don't. You haven't. I believe that it has to be an action not just a random thought that you don't act on. With all due respect, Jesus judges mens' heart.
#129. To: nativist nationalist (#109)
Your boy McCain worked hand in hand with his BFF 0buma to arm the groups fighting the government of Syria, which proved indispensable to the rise of ISIS. Same thing in Libya. ISIS could never have reached the level of success they enjoy today with out the aid and comfort provided by your boy McCain. Your guy Jihad Johnny worked with Clinton to help establish an Islamic foothold in Kosovo. He lied about building "that danged fence." Jihad Johnny sides with the enemies of America. Spot ON. John McStain has demonstrated by deed AND word nothing but contempt and disdain for the American people as a Senator for decades. He has insulted and dishonored us, by word, by deed. He is unworthy of an iota of respect. It has taken the courage of a Donald Trump to shout it from the Mountain. I consider it a good start. I am sick of the expectation and demand by media and political sycophants that by virtue of royal title or past achievement or sacrifice, scoundrels and traitors like John McCain can NOT have a glove laid on them for the rest of their lives. The reason folks here don't like McCain has everything to do with conduct in the US Senate.
#130. To: misterwhite (#123) (Edited)
Being shot down doesn't make you a war hero. It means you're unlucky. If we want to say that every soldier who serves in wartime is a "hero"...well, hell, the society calls cops and firemen "heroes" just for being. It's just blah-blah. Benedict Arnold was a great general at one point. What he did later tainted that to the point that it doesn't matter. McCain hasn't sullied himself the way that Arnold did. McCain's military service was a long time ago. He went to Annapolis, but so did I. He flew for the navy off of aircraft carriers, in a war, but so did I, in two wars actually. He got shot down and bailed out. I flew helicopters, so had I been shot down there would have been no bailing out, just a quick fall and a very, very hard landing. He was shot down, which was unlucky. He was injured in the bail out, which was unlucky. The enemy did not treat him gently with his wounds. but treated him roughly, which meant that his wounds caused him immense pain. This is very unlucky, and does not show the enemy to have been very civilized. But consider: McCain and I went to Annapolis, flew planes off our carriers, were in wars. He was involved in the destruction of three aircraft - very unlucky. I never scratched the paint on one - and I had some emergencies. Therefore, I am more qualified to be President of the United States, and US Senator, than he is? Really? No, not really. Military service decades ago is irrelevant to qualification for any office. It looks good, and people feel that it's more important than it is. What matters is what you think, what you do, your heart, your honesty, your integrity. McCain was a bully who cheated on the wife that waited for him, treated her horribly, dumped her, and married a rich woman. So did Gingrich. Those aspects of character are important, because they go do honesty, and they go to how a person will really behave when he WANTS SOMETHING, badly. Will he break vows and abuse people to get what he wants? That is a much better measure of a man's character: the guy who puts down the drink and says "You're beautiful, but I've gotta go home" and who doesn't stick his dick in the hottie because he can and dump the wife and kids. That sort of character matters a whole lot more in terms of passing the moral test of Washington - where temptations abound - then the fact that you wore a spiffy uniform and flew airplanes in danger. We should recall that in his country, Hitler was a "medal of honor" winner - he won the Knights Cross in World War I, a rarity for an enlisted man. The fact that he was a war hero, certified and bemedalled, was of immense value to him politically as he rose: people glom onto military glory and praise it. That didn't work out so well. McCain had a less praiseworthy military career than I did, or than Hitler for that matter. Hitler won the Knight's Cross in World War I, a gruelling affair in which he was injured. McCain got a lesser award for surviving getting shot down in a rice paddy. Hitler was the greater military hero. Did that make for a good political leader? Not exactly. He got into Annapolis because he was an Admiral's son. I was nobody. He graduated second to last. I graduated with honors. He wrecked three aircraft. I didn't wreck any. We both flew in war, and I had more qualifications: I drove ships as well as flying aircraft, being "dual designated". You all know me from this board, and a great number of you really dislike me. If McCain's military service qualifies him to lead you, then mine qualifies me more. I know that's ridiculous. My service doesn't qualify me to do anything other than fly what are now old planes and helos, and drive old ships. McCain is the same. Being a Prisoner of War was really unlucky, and one can be happy he made it out. But I was at Ground Zero that day and made it out of something too. Does that qualify ME for leadership over you? No. And nothing McCain did in the military qualifies him to lead either. His raging temper, alcoholism, sense of entitlement, and adultery are all examples of the poor judgment and poor personal control in his life that are reflected in the poor judgment he brings to politics. My better judgment in personal life DOES make me more qualified to be President of the United States and US Senator than McCain. But I'm not vainglorious the way he is, and I didn't dump my first wife for a rich woman to enable a political life, like he did. And others. McCain's a jerk. That he flew planes once upon a time is a recormmendation for nothing. I did too. So what?
#131. To: Liberator (#127)
You say Jesus judge's men's hearts. And he does. But JESUS SAID he judges men by their deeds. He included deeds of the heart along with deeds done with the hands, but he did not EXCLUDE deeds done with the hands when he ADDED deeds done in the heart. This is the great error: to think that deeds done with the hands are "works" and they don't count. Every line of Jesus, and all but two lines of Paul, ought to tell everybody that's not true. If it were, the path to Salvation would be broad and easy, and gate wide. But it's not. Jesus said so.
#132. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#128)
Because if in your heart you are thinking of sinning but you don't. You haven't. Remember -- it's not what WE believe in our heart, but what God sees and knows what's in our heart. Our heart cannot lie to the Lord. I believe that it has to be an action not just a random thought that you don't act on. Even the mob and drug lords help build churches and provide "humanitarian" relief. Just sayin'. I think Vic is correct.
#133. To: Vicomte13 (#131) (Edited)
That's a tricky riddle. Jesus also said, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die." Deeds and works had better be backed up by unselfish motives and love of Christ. Or else they are empty gestures. The "deeds" and works of Believers are compelled and inspired by the Holy Spirit within the hearts of Believers. You say Jesus judge's men's hearts. And he does. But JESUS SAID he judges men by their deeds.
#134. To: Liberator (#133)
"Whoever gives just a cup of cold water to these shall have their reward." Jesus seems to be more generous with rewards than thou.
#135. To: Vicomte13 (#130)
Excellent overview and perspective of John McCain, the pilot, the politician, the husband. His "qualifications," achievements, and his character are more than flawed unfortunately; He's been a narcissistic mental case.
#136. To: Vicomte13 (#134)
Of course. He's God. Jesus seems to be more generous with rewards than thou.
#137. To: Vicomte13, misterwhite (#130)
Good post, in fact it's an excellent post. I take exception to nothing and I can't add anything.
#138. To: nativist nationalist (#113)
Take you head out of your ass and note that I am not even a registered REP. I change my registration to Independent years ago. I am disgusted with both parties as neither represent me or my family. Don't get you panties in a bunch becuase my BS radar is better than yours. You may delude yourself and worship at the alter of false Messiahs such as Trump but don't expect me to be an idiot too. BS; you're a big shill for the RINO establishment RNC types.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#139. To: Vicomte13 (#130)
Well, when you put it that way, tnaks for admitting that you too are a jerk. McCain's a jerk. That he flew planes once upon a time is a recormmendation for nothing. I did too. So what?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#140. To: Gatlin, A K A Stone (#124)
For the last time, I am not a fan of McCain. But his military service demands more respect than your Dollar Donald and his band of pied piper morons deny. "I think not, let’s do so now. Her, let me fix this for you "I think not." Over and out. Have you taken a close look at McCain’s moral values?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#141. To: SOSO (#140)
You condemn Trump for his morals and yet you give McCain a pass on his. You are a hypocrite and McCain is no hero.
#142. To: A K A Stone, nativist nationalist, All (#114)
Who does SOSO support? First and foremost God and my family. As for the poltical scene, all the candidates, announced or pending, have flaws and weaknessess. At this point I haven't chosen a side other than I'd say it's pertty certain that it will not be the Drat candidate. I can't recall a national election in my lifetime in which I didn't have some serious misgivings about the person for whom I voted. I judge people for what they do not what they say. Except perhaps for Obmama there hasn't been a single elected politican that did what they promised, not even Reagan. Obama promised to rebuild America from the ground up. He has lived up to that promise. If you read anything about his life prior to running for national office he promised to find a way to implement reparations. For the most part he is well down that road to successfully achieving his goal. He told us all in plain language about his disdain for the role the U.S. has played in international affairs. And he told us how he would change that. He lived up to his promise. Need I go on? But We The People elected him...........TWICE. I never expect to find a perfect candidate on the ballot. However I admit that in far too many elections I held my nose when I voted. At this stage in my life I will not do that any more. If the choice comes down to a Turd Sandwhich or a Douche Bag or some Third Party Scumbag, each of which IMO has serious flaws or shortcomings, I probably will just stay home. The truth as I see it is that We The People always get what we want, which is manifest by what we do not what we say. We The People elected Clinton twice (neither time with the majority of popular votes), Obama twice, Nixon twice, Shrub twice. And how many Senators are serving their third or fourth term? Congressman their 8th, 9th or 10th? It is absurd to put so much trust and faith into any politician. They are all power hungry ego maniacs and control freaks looking out for Numero Uno. So you may continue to worship at the altar of the candiate of your choice. Just don't expect me to emualte your irrational action. There is only one Savior in my life and He is never on the ballot.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#143. To: Gatlin (#141)
How many times have I told you that I am not a fan of McCain? Now you can just go f*ck yourself. You condemn Trump for his morals and yet you give McCain a pass on his.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#144. To: SOSO (#143)
How many times do I have to tell you that you are still are a hypocrite....for condemning Trump and giving McCain a pass for doing worse, by calling McCain a "HERO." McCain is no hero.
#145. To: Gatlin (#144)
And how many times do I need to tell to go f*ck yourself? I don't suffer fools well, especially disingenuous ones. You are totally insufferable. How many times do I have to tell you that you are still are a hypocrite
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#146. To: SOSO (#145)
As long as you continue to expose yourself as the hypocrite you are. McCain is no hero. And how many times do I need to tell to go f*ck yourself?
#147. To: SOSO (#139)
I'm just "keepin' it real". Well, when you put it that way, tnaks for admitting that you too are a jerk.
#148. To: Gatlin, SOSO (#146)
He was a military prince, son and grandson of an admiral. He partied his way through Annapolis, graduating at the very bottom of his class. He was a lousy pilot and didn't follow procedure in attack and got himself shot down by AA because of it. While ejecting, his poor adherence to training caused him to be severely injured and permanently maimed (due to lack of medical care in POW camp). If he wasn't a military prince, the Navy would probably have never let him fly, let alone fly a warplane. All that said, McCain did suffer maiming from his service, he was in POW camp a long time and didn't go home when they offered to let him go. That was the most honorable thing he did in his Navy career. It would have been easy to just quit after he'd been maimed. There are a lot of other vets that are much bigger heroes than McCain. Bob Kerrey and Bob Dole both had better much records in elite units and lost limbs, for instance. But he served and suffered so "war hero" may be the only term that fits, even if he was a lousy pilot rightly held in low regard in the military. McCain is no hero.
#149. To: TooConservative (#148)
It's fair enough to call him a war hero. He was, and is, a jerk. But he meets the qualifications to be Senator: the majority of voters in his state vote for him in the Congressional election.
#150. To: Vicomte13, TooConservative, Gatlin (#149)
'Zactly. "He was, and is, a jerk. But he meets the qualifications to be Senator: the majority of voters in his state vote for him in the Congressional election." Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. - H. L. Mencken {or something like that} It's fair enough to call him a war hero.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#151. To: Vicomte13 (#149)
Agreed. The same could have been said of Benedict Arnold. In the end both betrayed America. It's fair enough to call him a war hero.
#152. To: SOSO, A K A Stone (#142)
Lots of doublespeak, and you inconvenienced a whole bunch of electrons to say nothing. "Balanced nuance" is RINOspeak for posts like yours. SOSO the acronym, meaning: "Supporting Obama's Socialist Objectives." Who does SOSO support?
#153. To: TooConservative (#148)
Fair and balanced assessment of McCain. His gesture to remain a POW was honorable -- no doubt. THIS is what Trump should say....but then help America ask itself: "WHAT IS the definition of "heroic"? Maybe it's time for THIS discussion (especially after tranny attention-whore Bruce Jenner was described as a "hero.") Trump's words were in-artfully phrased to say the least. Yes, tactless. But then Trump has never been a PC kinda guy, which makes him uniquely refreshing. AND honest. Isn't THIS what we should be looking for in a candidate? Instead of subterfuge, PC weasel words, and total ambiguity?
#154. To: SOSO, Gatlin, A K A Stone (#140)
Wait -- so McStain -- who is a chronic liar, disloyal party hack and traitor -- is MORE deserved of respect than Donald Trump, who dares speak the truth of the Illegal invaders, the trashing our economy, and the disasterous foreign policy -- ALL of which are enabled by the likes of one John McCain?? I am not a fan of McCain. But his military service demands more respect than your Dollar Donald and his band of pied piper morons deny.
#155. To: nativist nationalist (#152)
"Supporting Obama's Socialist Objectives." Yo, NN (for No-brian Ninny), can I have some of your meds? SOSO the acronym, meaning:
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#156. To: Liberator (#154)
According to his RINO logic Benedict Arnold is also more deserving. And Judas was one of the 12 disciples, so you should respect him too. It's fun watch SOSO dance around, he has to be dishonest about what he's for because it's so unpopular. Obama was soft peddling his snake oil back in the day too. The guys pushing the agenda of the Davos-Doha douche-bags need to adopt a "balanced nuance" because they know that truth acts like disinfectant to the pathogens they're spreading. Strait shooters like Pat Buchanan and Donald Trump wield the truth, the weapon RINO's fear the most. Remember over in Freeperstan how the RINO's like Dane and Bayourod went into conniption fits over Buchanan editorials? Same thing with SOSO today. Wait -- so McStain -- who is a chronic liar, disloyal party hack and traitor -- is MORE deserved of respect than Donald Trump, who dares speak the truth of the Illegal invaders, the trashing our economy, and the disasterous foreign policy -- ALL of which are enabled by the likes of one John McCain??
#157. To: Liberator, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone (#154)
Fair and balanced assessment of McCain. His gesture to remain a POW was honorable -- no doubt. THIS is what Trump should say....but then help America ask itself: "WHAT IS the definition of "heroic"? Maybe it's time for THIS discussion (especially after tranny attention-whore Bruce Jenner was described as a "hero.") Trump's words were in-artfully phrased to say the least. Yes, tactless. But then Trump has never been a PC kinda guy, which makes him uniquely refreshing. AND honest. Isn't THIS what we should be looking for in a candidate? Instead of subterfuge, PC weasel words, and total ambiguity? Liberator posted on 2015-07-20 12:25:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply #154. To: SOSO, Gatlin, A K A Stone (#140) I {Soso} am not a fan of McCain. But his military service demands more respect than your Dollar Donald and his band of pied piper morons deny. Wait -- so McStain -- who is a chronic liar, disloyal party hack and traitor -- is MORE deserved of respect than Donald Trump, who dares speak the truth of the Illegal invaders, the trashing our economy, and the disasterous foreign policy -- ALL of which are enabled by the likes of one John McCain?? Liberator posted on 2015-07-20 12:29:12 ET Reply Trace Private Reply You speak out of both sides of your mouth quite well. Undoubtedly you are well practiced at it. But if you cannot bring yourself to stop your duplicity yourself I will answer your question. When it comes to McCain's military service, absolutely McCain is deserving of more respect than Dollar Donald. #153. To: TooConservative (#148)
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#158. To: SOSO (#157) (Edited)
Absolutely. If you want aircraft carriers trashed or airplanes dumped in the ocean through incompetence, complete with elaborate cover-ups to make him look good, McCain is the man to get. No doubt about it. When it comes to McCain's military service, absolutely McCain is deserving of more respect than Dollar Donald.
#159. To: SOSO, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone, nativist nationalist (#157)
Never bring a limp noodle to a gun fight, SOSO. This is why you haven't won a debate here at LF. EVER. Let's parse my post...honestly. Within honest context. Something of which you are incapable. "Fair and balanced assessment of McCain." THAT statement of mine was with respect to TC's BRUTAL assessment and succinct review of McStain's service. YOU: I spoke of McCain's "gesture to remain a POW" -- NOT his "military service" -- YOUR quote -- THIS is what YOU find yourself changing your wet panties over? HA! McStain's "military service" is a buffoonish disgrace. Trump's only "crime" is in lacking tact....IN TELLING THE UNVARNISHED TRUTH. Deal with it, RINO. John McStain -- the guy YOU defend here -- is indeed an Open Borders crusader, Illegal Invader supporter, one of the authors of outsourcing and trashing the American economy, acted as a proxy rep for 0buma in meeting with terrorists, sicced the Eye Are Ess on the Tea Party and Conservative Groups along with Carl Levin (D.) REMINDER: YOUR GUY. The guy you've been defending from Trump's MUCH deserved public beatdown is NO "hero", but a turncoat traitor to America and a lying POS. #153. To: TooConservative (#148)
Me: "His gesture to remain a POW was honorable -- no doubt. THIS is what Trump should say...."
"[McStain's] military service demands more respect than your Dollar Donald..."
#160. To: nativist nationalist, SOSO (#156)
Great points -- Judas was an Apostle; Benedict Arnold a GREAT American General. Didn't turn out well in either case, eh? By their logic, RESPECT THEM!! Because they ought to be in God's/Washington's Hall of Fame too. For "heroism." Apparently, mere military service is "heroic"; Whether you've helped create a FUBAR situation aboard the carrier Forrestal; flouted protocol because you're the big-shot son of an Admiral; OR, because screwed up your ejection in a jet of a mission you've just completely messed up, now you've broken several bones, and become a POW....and according to some here, THAT'S a "hero"?? Yes, it's RINO logic AND worship of the Military...for NO reason other than to engage in Hero Worship and bend the knee. Because at the heart of every RINO is a Groupie of Authoritah. Whether the suits of Senators, Congressmen, or Presidents; OR, the sniffing of badges or Socialist/Statist-Fascist/Papal uniforms. I'm tired of being "trained" to kneel before fake "heroes," be expected to respect and uniform-sniff without regard for deed or word or actual patriotism. Strait shooters like Pat Buchanan and Donald Trump wield the truth, the weapon RINO's fear the most. Yup. It's the TRUTH being attacked in the name of John McCain's so-called "heroism." Whether Trump OR Buchanan back in the day. At the end of the day, the RINOs, the GOPe groupies, and the Dem-lib cultists ALL worship the same thing. BONDAGE. SLAVERY. SOSO can continue to defend the defenseless -- after all, he's dug in. But it's one more LOSE-LOSE for him. Remember over in Freeperstan how the RINO's like Dane and Bayourod went into conniption fits over Buchanan editorials? Same thing with SOSO today. Ha...once upon a time, eh, my friend? THAT was a fight that JR and GOPE Freepers refused to fight. BECAUSE he was a traitor, and so too were MANY Freepers. Damage done. IF the "honor" of a traitor -- John McCain -- must be defended, we are finished. Thanks to those same fake patriots. According to his RINO logic Benedict Arnold is also more deserving. And Judas was one of the 12 disciples, so you should respect him too. It's fun watch SOSO dance around, he has to be dishonest about what he's for because it's so unpopular.
#161. To: rlk (#158)
Lol...
#162. To: Liberator, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone, nativist nationalist (#159)
LMAO. Dance, ballerina, dnace.......... I spoke of McCain's "gesture to remain a POW" -- NOT his "military service"
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#163. To: rlk, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone, nativist nationalist, Liberator (#158)
Where was Dollar Donald during the Vietnam War? Where were you? Do you really want to match McCain's military service with DOller Donald's? When it comes to McCain's military service, absolutely McCain is deserving of more respect than Dollar Donald.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#164. To: cranky (#0)
Frontrunner?? Missing in Ames was the Republican front-runner Jeb Bush
“Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
#165. To: Liberator, nativist nationalist, Gatlin, TooConservative, A K A Stone (#160)
No wonder why you delusionally believe that you win every agrument, you eat, drink, breathe, belch, fart and sh*t strawmen. Great points -- Judas was an Apostle; Benedict Arnold a GREAT American General. Didn't turn out well in either case, eh? By their logic, RESPECT THEM!! Because they ought to be in God's/Washington's Hall of Fame too. For "heroism."
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#166. To: TooConservative, Gatlin, SOSO (#148)
I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award. "War hero" should be reserved for those few who have stood out from the rest of us who have served honorably, but without such distinction. But he served and suffered so "war hero" may be the only term that fits
#167. To: CZ82, carnky (#164)
Leading from behind? Frontrunner??
#168. To: CZ82 (#164)
So sayeth the polls. Trump is number two. Frontrunner??
There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
#169. To: SOSO (#163)
I was kidnapped by the local draft board and then made a prisoner in JFK's and Robert MacNamara's army. It cost me a chance for medical school. Don't start pulling that shit on me. Where were you?
#170. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#166)
T.C. ---- McCain did suffer maiming from his service, he was in POW camp a long time and didn't go home when they offered to let him go. That was the most honorable thing he did in his Navy career. It would have been easy to just quit after he'd been maimed. Nolu ----- I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award. "War hero" should be reserved for those few who have stood out from the rest of us who have served honorably, but without such distinction. McCain's 'heroism' derives from the fact that he didn't surrender, he was shot down, and even then, didn't quit. Other than that, I agree with Chan.. ----- Heroism and Heroes are a cut above, and McCain does not qualify. Gatlin, (#146) ---- McCain is no hero.
#171. To: nolu chan (#166)
Maybe you can post McCain's service record for his medals and lay claim to his "hero" status as a result of your detailed research. Did he get some sort of purple heart or other medals to support the contention that McCain is a "war hero?" From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
#172. To: rlk (#169)
My hat's off to you, you served and I assume got an honorable discharge. In my book you are a hero for the sacrifice(s) you made. You could have ran to Canada and gone the med school there. I wasn't trying to pull any sh*t. I wanted to know how many of Dollar Donald's supporters actually, unlike Dollar, served in Vietnam. So please unbunch your panties. I was kidnapped by the local draft board and then made a prisoner in JFK's and Robert MacNamara's army. It cost me a chance for medical school. Don't start pulling that shit on me.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#173. To: TooConservative, Gatlin, SOSO, sneakypete, hondo68, cranky (#148)
sneakypete sent me this to clarify the situation about McCain's alleged early release offer: This is NOT correct. He was offered early release,but Admiral Stockdale ordered him to remain in a show of group solidarity. If he had accepted the offer and left early it would have been something that even his 4 star daddy couldn't have gotten him out of. He would have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty and refusing to obey and order..All that said, McCain did suffer maiming from his service, he was in POW camp a long time and didn't go home when they offered to let him go. That was the most honorable thing he did in his Navy career. It would have been easy to just quit after he'd been maimed.
Fred,I keep seeing people on LF making the claim that McLunatic was offered early freedom from the POW camp in Hanoi,but refused.
#174. To: tpaine (#170)
Am cut above what? Anyone that would consciously put himself in the line of fire and not run is a hero in my book. Everyone that saw combat, in whatever form, is a hero - especially the ones that were captured and didn't completely break under tremdous, if not horrendous, physical and mental torment. Perhaps I am too geneous in my sentiment but that is the way I earnestly feel. All I know is that I didn't walk in those shoes and have never been tested that way. Most of us haven't and never will be. If one is honest, who can say with any degree of certainty how they would react in those circumstances? So you, as I, are free to keep you heroes as you wish. Heroism and Heroes are a cut above,
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#175. To: buckeroo (#171) (Edited)
The only authentication in existence is reports by assorted naval officers who had to whitewash and aggrandize the performance of a chronic screw-up to avoid displeasure from two full admirals. An Audi Murphy he wasn't. From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
#176. To: rlk (#175)
If McCain is a "war hero" as he almost seems to claim now that he demands an apoligy from Trump, his service medals should reveal some conideration thereof.
#177. To: Fred Mertz, TooConservative, Gatlin, sneakypete, hondo68, cranky (#173)
You mean the Admiral (then Captain) that Dollar Donald doesn't like because he was captured? That Stockdale? "Recalling his 1965 capture, Stockdale told the Academy of Achievement’s Museum of Living History in Washington, D.C.: ‘As I ejected from the plane, I broke a bone in my back, but that was only the beginning. I landed in the streets of a small village. A thundering herd was coming down on me. They were going to defend the honor of their town. It was the quarterback sack of the century.’ You mean the Stockdale that didn't know how to correctly eject from his plane and broke his back? That Stockdale? You mean the Stockwell that supported McCain? "Stockdale’s survival was fortunate for the other POWs, who would continue to rely on him as a role model and a leadership figure. One of those POWs was future Senator John McCain, the son of Admiral John McCain II, commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Command during the Vietnam War. McCain’s own POW ordeal began on October 23, 1967, when he landed in the middle of Truc Bach Lake in downtown Hanoi, after a Soviet SAM took the right wing off his Skyhawk bomber. McCain, whose cell at Hoa Lo was two doors down from Stockdale’s, recently recalled: ‘Jim inspired us to do things we never believed we were capable of. Without him, I certainly wouldn’t have made it out of the prison with my honor intact.’ Many years later, McCain got additional support from Stockdale as the former was campaigning for the Republican Party nomination for president during the 2000 campaign. That Stockwell? Admiral Stockdale
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#178. To: nolu chan (#166)
Me too. But we don't have a category like "patriot martyr" or "war victim" so we just call them all war heroes. I get Trump's point. A hero is the guy who makes our enemies die for their country because that saves the most lives of our own military by making wars shorter and victorious. I recall Bob Dole and Bob Kerrey, both maimed. But they were members of elite units, Doe in elite mountain troops in Italy and Kerrey in the SEALs. So they were real fighting men that saw combat many times. McCain was such a lousy pilot that he got himself shot down in short order over Vietnam. It isn't fair to say that all three were equally "war heroes" when the other two were much better fighting men than McCain was and both were more maimed in their service than McCain is. I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award.
#179. To: TooConservative, nolu chan (#178)
You mean like Stockdale? McCain was such a lousy pilot that he got himself shot down in short order over Vietnam.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#180. To: SOSO (#179)
Maybe America needs a "war hero" and as a result of not so many in contemporary tymes, there is a psychological backlash about Trump's publick expressions concerning McCain. If there wasn't any merit about Tump's suggestions, there would be little controversy. So, Trump struck a sensitive nerve, resonnating in America. That is two for two, btw.
#181. To: TooConservative (#178)
Exactly how was Kerry maimed a la Dole, Stockdale or even McCain? "It was not at all unusual that injuries meriting the award of a Purple Heart might not be serious enough to require time off from duty. Kerry felt in his arm had been caused by a piece of shrapnel, a wound for which he was awarded a Purple Heart. The injury was not serious — Brinkley notes that Kerry went on a regular Swift boat patrol the next day with a bandage on his arm, and the Boston Globe quoted William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral, as recalling that "It was not a very serious wound at all." Kerry earned his second Purple Heart while returning from a PCF mission up the Bo De River on 20 February 1969:...........Brinkley noted that, as in the previous case, "Kerry's wound was not serious enough to require time off from duty." Kerry was injured yet again on 13 March 1969, in an action for which he was awarded both a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart.......... According to the Boston Globe, this was the only one of Kerry's three Purple Heart injuries that caused him to miss any days of service: Back in 1969, Navy regulations specified that any soldier wounded in combat three times be automatically reassigned away from a combat zone to an assignment of his choosing (unless the thrice-wounded soldier specifically requested to stay). Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served, forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C." Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F.Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York. Kerry served with Admiral Schlech until the end of 1969, when he requested an early discharge from the Navy in order to run for a Massachusetts congressional seat. Admiral Schlech approved the request, and on 3 January 1970 Kerry received an honorable discharge, six months early. I give Kerry credit for putting himself in harms way, more than once. But maimed as a result of that?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#182. To: buckeroo (#180)
Maybe America needs a "war hero" and as a result of not so many in contemporary tymes, there is a psychological backlash about Trump's publick expressions concerning McCain. If there wasn't any merit about Tump's suggestions, there would be little controversy. So, Trump struck a sensitive nerve, resonnating in America. That is two for two, btw. You mean the nerve that's resulting in a backlash on Trump? Like the Wizard Paul, Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper, aka Donald Dollar. Like the Wizard Paul Dollar Donald will run as a 3rd Party candidate. The fix is in with the Clintons. I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her. A fitting succesor to Emperor Obama. Yep, that's two for two alright.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#183. To: SOSO, Liberator, GarySpFc (#181) (Edited)
I said "Bob Kerrey". Not Lurch. Kerrey's MOH citation: And Kerrey did lose that injured lower leg as a result. In a nod to Trump's point about McCain, this is a lot more heroic stuff. Scaling a 350' sheer cliff at night, risking discovery from elite enemy bodyguards around local Commie honchos? Classic SEAL derring-do. I don't like Bob Kerrey or John Kerry. But both had much better records as fighting men than McCain. Look back at the classic example of an American war hero: Audie Murphy. He was a real war hero. Exactly how was Kerry maimed a la Dole, Stockdale or even McCain?
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a SEAL team leader during action against enemy aggressor (Viet Cong) forces. Acting in response to reliable intelligence, Lt. (j.g.) Kerrey led his SEAL team on a mission to capture important members of the enemy's area political cadre known to be located on an island in the bay of Nha Trang. In order to surprise the enemy, he and his team scaled a 350-foot sheer cliff to place themselves above the ledge on which the enemy was located. Splitting his team in 2 elements and coordinating both, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey led his men in the treacherous downward descent to the enemy's camp. Just as they neared the end of their descent, intense enemy fire was directed at them, and Lt. (jg.) Kerrey received massive injuries from a grenade that exploded at his feet and threw him backward onto the jagged rocks. Although bleeding profusely and suffering great pain, he displayed outstanding courage and presence of mind in immediately directing his element's fire into the heart of the enemy camp. Utilizing his radio, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey called in the second element's fire support, which caught the confused Viet Cong in a devastating crossfire. After successfully suppressing the enemy's fire, and although immobilized by his multiple wounds, he continued to maintain calm, superlative control as he ordered his team to secure and defend an extraction site. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey resolutely directed his men, despite his near unconscious state, until he was eventually evacuated by helicopter. The havoc brought to the enemy by this very successful mission cannot be over-estimated. The enemy soldiers who were captured provided critical intelligence to the allied effort. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey's courageous and inspiring leadership, valiant fighting spirit, and tenacious devotion to duty in the face of almost overwhelming opposition sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.
#184. To: SOSO (#182)
That can be said about all of the candidates running. " Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper "
Si vis pacem, para bellum
#185. To: buckeroo (#171)
I can post the commendations for the awards, but his record may have received positive influence from having his father and grandfather both be admirals while he was on active duty. That can also influence action, or inaction, on misdeeds. I am not saying I have knowledge of any such happenings in McCain's specific case, but the Navy old boy network was well known. Anyway, he has a chest full of awards. Maybe you can post McCain's service record for his medals and lay claim to his "hero" status as a result of your detailed research. Did he get some sort of purple heart or other medals to support the contention that McCain is a "war hero?"
#186. To: TooConservative (#183)
Bob Kerry yes, but John was simply in the john. I don't like Bob Kerrey or John Kerry. But both had much better records as fighting men than McCain.
And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6
#187. To: buckeroo (#171)
It would appear that much of his service record has not been released. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klein/mccains-secret-questionab_b_107409.html Jeffrey Klein "At a meeting in his Pentagon office in early 1981, Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman told Capt. John S. McCain III that he was about to attain his life ambition: becoming an admiral.... Mr. McCain declined the prospect of his first admiral's star to make a run for Congress, saying that he could ‘do more good there,’ Mr. Lehman recalled." So claimed the New York Times in a front-page article on May 29 this year. This story is highly improbable for several reasons, not least of all because John McCain himself has always told a very different story about his stalled naval career. For example, on page 9 of his memoir Worth The Fighting For, McCain writes: "Several months before my father died, I informed him that I was leaving the navy. I am sure he had already gotten word of my decision from friends in the Pentagon. I had been summoned to see the CNO, Admiral Heyward, who told me that I was making a mistake.... His attempt to dissuade me encouraged me to believe that I might have made admiral had I had been in the navy, a prospect that remained an open question in my mind.... Some of my navy friends believed I could still earn my star; others doubted it.... When I told my father of my intention, he did not remonstrate with me.... But I knew him well enough to know that he was disappointed. For when I left him that day, alone in his study, I took with me his hope that I might someday become the first son and grandson of four-star admirals to achieve the same distinction. That aspiration was well beyond my reach by the time I made my decision...." McCain's father died on March 22, 1981. McCain retired from the Navy within a week. He wrote about his retirement soon thereafter. McCain never mentioned the alleged offer of an admiralship by Lehman in any of his books, nor in the numerous interviews McCain gave during his first run for the presidency in 1999-2000. Furthermore, articles written during the current presidential campaign quote McCain's closest friends about McCain's failure to be promoted to admiral before he retired from the Navy. For example, in an April 26, 2008, National Journal cover story, William Cohen (then a Senator, subsequently Secretary of Defense and the best man at McCain's second wedding) recounts that McCain "knew his career in the Navy was limited." Former Senator Gary Hart, who served as a groomsman at McCain's 1980 wedding, says in the National Journal story that he had been told "that [McCain] was not going to receive a star and not going to become an admiral. I think that was the deciding point for him to retire from the Navy." John Lehman doesn't figure in any accounts of McCain's naval career, probably because Lehman was appointed Secretary of the Navy less than two months before McCain retired. The New York Times didn't note this, or the pertinent fact that John Lehman is currently serving as National Security Adviser to McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. Two other top naval officers in the Times story confirmed Lehman's claim, but for unknown reasons the Times, in violation of its own guidelines, accorded them off-the-record status that makes it impossible to assess their motives and credibility. The New York Times' front-page story about McCain declining promotion to admiral lacks credibility for other reasons as well. For example, McCain had been promoted to captain on August 1, 1979, so he wouldn't have been due for another promotion by March of 1981. Retired Admiral Peter Booth, who was promoted to rear admiral in 1981, flatly disputes Lehman's claim about McCain. "No, John McCain was not selected for flag rank, for admiral. With all due respect, I think I was selected that same year, and I have never heard anything even remotely like that. To begin with, John Lehman did not select Navy flag officers. That was done with a very august selection board headed by a four-star admiral. The Secretary of the Navy does not appoint. He is in the approval chain, but he is not on the committee. "I have never heard a story, even remotely, that John McCain was going to be a flag officer. I was early selected for captain, in 1976, and I was regular selected for admiral in 1981. So it's probably five or six years, I guess. I've never heard of anybody being selected for flag rank within three or four years of making captain, ever." Retired Admiral John R. Batzler, former commanding officer of the U.S.S. Nimitz, also promoted to rear admiral in 1981, agrees with Retired Admiral Booth. "I made rear admiral in about five years. I wasn't selected early, and I wasn't selected late. I find it incredible that someone made that statement that John Lehman told John McCain he was going to be promoted to admiral two years after he made captain. First of all, telling him at all is not kosher, but we all know the Secretary of the Navy does what he damn well pleases, in particular John Lehman. This whole idea that John Lehman told John McCain he was going to be promoted to flag two years after he made captain sounds preposterous to me." All of the evidence, indications and comments that the New York Times published a flattering lie about McCain's career on its front page are easy for John McCain to refute. All he needs to do is sign Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an undeleted copy of McCain's naval file to news organizations. A long paper trail about McCain's pending promotion to admiral would be prominent in his file. To date, McCain's advisers have released snippets from his file, but under constrained viewing circumstances. There's no reason McCain's full file shouldn't be released immediately. In May 2005, six months after he lost his bid for president, Senator John Kerry signed the 180 waiver, authorizing the release of his complete military service record to the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press. ** Unlike Kerry, McCain shouldn't wait until after the election to do so. The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press. Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's. Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airedales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished, according to his own books, by mediocrity and misdeeds, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file. McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances. Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac. Timberg: "[A]fter a European fling with the tobacco heiress, John McCain reported to flight school at Pensacola in August 1958.... [H]is performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it. What he loved was the kick-the-tire, start-the-fire, scarf-in-the-wind life of a naval aviator. ...One Saturday morning, as McCain was practicing landings, his engine quit and his plane plunged into Corpus Christi. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom....McCain was an adequate pilot, but he had no patience for studying dry aviation manuals.... His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.... [In 1965] he flew a trainer solo to Philadelphia for the Army-Navy game. Flying by way of Norfolk, he had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. 'I've got a flameout,' he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees." Adds Karaagac: "In his memoir, everything becomes a kind of game of adolescent brinksmanship, how much can one press the limits of the acceptable and elude the powers that be....The [fighter jocks'] ethos of exaggerated, almost aggressive sociability becomes an end in itself and an excuse for license. There is a tendency for people, not simply to believe their own mythology but, indeed, to exaggerate it.... Fighter jocks, like politicians around their campaign contributions, often press the limits of the acceptable. It is a type of mild corruption that takes place in a highly privileged atmosphere, where restraints are loosened and excuses made....McCain gives some hint in his memoirs about where he stood in the hierarchy among carrier flyers. Instead of the sleek and newer Phantoms and Crusaders, McCain flew the dependable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk in an attack, not a fighter squadron. He was thus on the lower end of the flying totem pole." The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them." But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said the book would showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, "Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'" Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage. One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone. Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision. ** An earlier version of this story may have left the impression that John Kerry had signed the 180 military waiver during the 2004 presidential campaign. It has been updated to clarify the timing of the release.From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
McCain's Secret, Questionable Record
Huffington Post
Posted June 16, 2008 | 08:50 PM (EST)
Updated: 05/25/2011 12:35 pm EDT
#188. To: SOSO (#182)
Propaganda. I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her.
#189. To: TooConservative, SOSO, Liberator, GarySpFc (#183)
I have to get some Navy folk into the mix. I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_B._Fluckey For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Barb during her 11th war patrol along the east coast of China from 19 December 1944 to 15 February 1945. After sinking a large enemy ammunition ship and damaging additional tonnage during a running 2-hour night battle on 8 January, Comdr. Fluckey, in an exceptional feat of brilliant deduction and bold tracking on 25 January, located a concentration of more than 30 enemy ships in the lower reaches of Nankuan Chiang (Mamkwan Harbor). Fully aware that a safe retirement would necessitate an hour's run at full speed through the uncharted, mined, and rock-obstructed waters, he bravely ordered, "Battle station — torpedoes!" In a daring penetration of the heavy enemy screen, and riding in 5 fathoms [9 m] of water, he launched the Barb's last forward torpedoes at 3,000 yard [2.7 km] range. Quickly bringing the ship's stern tubes to bear, he turned loose 4 more torpedoes into the enemy, obtaining 8 direct hits on 6 of the main targets to explode a large ammunition ship and cause inestimable damage by the resultant flying shells and other pyrotechnics. Clearing the treacherous area at high speed, he brought the Barb through to safety and 4 days later sank a large Japanese freighter to complete a record of heroic combat achievement, reflecting the highest credit upon Comdr. Fluckey, his gallant officers and men, and the U.S. Naval Service. - - - - - In November 1943, he attended the Prospective Commanding Officer's School at the Submarine Base New London, then reported to Commander Submarine Force, Pacific Fleet. After one war patrol as the prospective commanding officer of the USS Barb (SS-220), (her seventh), he assumed command of the submarine on April 27, 1944. Fluckey established himself as one of the greatest submarine skippers, credited with the most tonnage sunk by a U.S. skipper during World War II: 17 ships including a carrier, cruiser, and frigate. In one of the stranger incidents in the war, Fluckey sent a landing party ashore to set demolition charges on a coastal railway line, destroying a 16-car train. This was the sole landing by U.S. military forces on the Japanese home islands during World War II. Fluckey ordered that this landing party be composed of crewmen from every division on his submarine. "He chose an eight-man team with no married men to blow up the train," Captain Max Duncan said, who served as Torpedo Officer on the Barb during this time. "He also wanted former Boy Scouts because he thought they could find their way back. They were paddling back to the ship when the train blew up." The selected crewmen were Paul Saunders, William Hatfield, Francis Sever, Lawrence Newland, Edward Klinglesmith, James Richard, John Markuson, and William Walker. Hatfield wired the explosive charge, using a microswitch under the rails to trigger the explosion. Fluckey was awarded the Navy Cross four times for extraordinary heroism during the eighth, ninth, tenth, and twelfth war patrols of Barb. During his famous eleventh patrol, he continued to revolutionize submarine warfare, inventing the night convoy attack from astern by joining the flank escort line. He attacked two convoys at anchor 26 miles (42 km) inside the 20 fathom (37 m) curve on the China coast, totaling more than 30 ships. With two frigates pursuing, Barb set a then-world speed record for a submarine of 23.5 knots (44 km/h) using 150% overload. For his conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity, Fluckey received the Medal of Honor. Barb received the Presidential Unit Citation for the eighth through eleventh patrols and the Navy Unit Commendation for the twelfth patrol. - - - - - On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked the USS Liberty, leaving 34 dead and 174 wounded. William McGonagle. the commanding officer of Liberty, was awarded the Medal of Honor. Medal of Honor citation CAPTAIN WILLIAM LOREN MCGONAGLE For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8–9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to command his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service. Look back at the classic example of an American war hero: Audie Murphy.
Medal of Honor citation
USS Barb (SS-220)
The President of the United States of America, authorized by an Act of Congress, March 3, 1863, has awarded, in the name of Congress, the Medal of Honor to
UNITED STATES NAVY
#190. To: nolu chan, GarySpFc (#189)
Wait a second. How can they be war heroes if they didn't get an expensive warplane shot down (or a ship sank) and then spend most of their service years as a POW? Yet McCain is the one war hero that most people could name. I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy. I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service. ... William McGonagle. the commanding officer of Liberty, was awarded the Medal of Honor.
#191. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#190)
For Dems, McCain became a war hero when Trump said he wasn’t. They have a short memory concerning what they said about McCain, the candidate, in 2008. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3824410 Vietnam Veterans Against McCain: McCain Lost Five U.S. Navy Aircraft http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mcc... McCain lost five U.S. Navy aircraft. Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft. His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945. During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat. Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it." McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom. McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral." McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game. Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees. McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship. McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi. = = = = = COMMENTS: (just the first few -- there are more at the link) msongs, Tue Aug-19-08 08:48 PM Response to Original message 1. he's no war hero: failed his mission, lost his plane, allowed himself to be captured. all off limits in this campaing because mccain is gonna flog obama with it Msongs - - - Thothmes, Wed Aug-20-08 08:36 AM 17. So all of those bomber pilots that were shot down over Germany and Japan and allowed themselves to be captured also failed their missions. - - - Mike Daniels, Wed Aug-20-08 08:44 AM Response to Reply #1 18. What's keeping these veterans from coming out to the media to hit McCain on his record I can see why Obama would avoid directly attacking McCain's record/performance. However, given that the Repubs were more than fine with fellow vets slamming Kerry's record why shouldn't Obama's campaign give this group free reign to come out in the media and expose McCain's failures. If the Repubs and media want to scream about that all you need to do is point out they didn't have an issue with it in 2004. - - - UTUSN, Tue Aug-19-08 08:53 PM 2. K&R #2 for, Shhhhhh!1 Not everybody here wants to note McPLANE's military record!1 n/t - - - speedoo, Tue Aug-19-08 08:55 PM Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 08:55 PM by speedoo And he'd be a disastrous President. - - - - - Yet McCain is the one war hero that most people could name.
Hissyspit, Tue Aug-19-08 08:44 PM
Original message
Response to Reply #1
Response to Original message
Response to Original message
3. So the Navy got 5+ missions out of him for every aircraft he lost.
Pretty bad ROI. Pretty bad pilot.
#192. To: Stoner (#184)
That can be said about all of the candidates running. You have a point. Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper "
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#193. To: TooConservative (#183)
Oops, my bad. Never mind. I said "Bob Kerrey". Not Lurch.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#194. To: A K A Stone (#188)
Propaganda. We'll see. I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#195. To: nolu chan, TooConservative, Liberator, GarySpFc (#189)
Ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Thank God people like these show up when we need them. I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#196. To: TooConservative, nolu chan, GarySpFc (#190)
So only John Waynes are war heroes. I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#197. To: TooConservative, nolu chan, GarySpFc, A Pole (#190)
Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state. It can be awarded to both civilian and military personnel. Many of the early recipients of the Hero of Russia were engaged in the Chechnya conflicts or were cosmonauts, with the occasional athlete, explorer and even Mikhail T. Kalashnikov the designer of the AK-47. I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#198. To: SOSO (#196)
Yep. Suffering in captivity doesn't win a war or shorten it (thereby saving the lives of other Americans). In many ways, McCain has broken the standard mold of "war hero". So only John Waynes are war heroes.
#199. To: SOSO (#197)
Do they award it for being a POW? Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state.
#200. To: TooConservative, A Pole (#199)
Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state. Do they award it for being a POW? You mean have they? DK. Perhaps A Pole can tell us.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#201. To: TooConservative (#198)
I guess you never heard of Jonathan M. Wainwright. "Suffering in captivity doesn't win a war or shorten it (thereby saving the lives of other Americans)." That is arguable. In many ways, McCain has broken the standard mold of "war hero".
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
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