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Title: Trump creates outrage in Iowa claiming that John McCain wasn't a war hero because he was a captured POW – and dodges questions about his own Vietnam War draft deferments
Source:
Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... all-half-field-stays-home.html
Published: Jul 18, 2015
Author: David Martosko, US Political Editor
Post Date: 2015-07-18 13:59:06 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 54231
Comments: 201
Donald Trump escalated his feud with Sen. John McCain on Saturady in Iowa by suggesting only his capture and five years as a prisoner of war turned him into a 'war hero.' 'He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured,' Trump said on stage at the Family Leader Summit in Ames. McCain spent years in a Viet Cong prison after the plane he was flying was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967.He was tortured enough to produce permanent physical disabilities. Trump got student and medical deferments and never served in uniform. He told reporters after his speech that a bone spur in his foot led to the medical exemption from the draft. Asked which foot had disqualified him, he couldn't remember. 'You'll have to look it up,' Trump said dismissively. 'It's in the records.' Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who is running 10th in an average of national polls, immediately called for Trump to quit his presidential campaign. ANGRY: Trump attacked Sen. John McCain and said the only reason he is considered a war hero is his capture and imprisonment as a POW during the Vietnam War. NOT A HERO? Sen. John McCain spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison after his plane was shot down durign the Vietnam War WALKING WOUNDED: McCain's torture left him disfigured and permanently damaged 'I respect Sen. McCain because he volunteered to serve his country,' Perry said in a statement. 'I cannot say the same of Mr. Trump.' 'His comments have reached a new low in American politics. His attack on veterans make him unfit to be Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, and he should immediately withdraw from the race for President.' Trump focued considerable rhetorical artillery on McCain Saturday, mocking his bona fides on military and veterans issues: 'He graduated last in his class at Annapolis,' he claimed. 'Well, second-to-last.' In a press conference following his speech, Trump backtracked a few inches about prisoners of war. 'If somebody's a prisoner, I would consider him a war hero,' he said. 'But her have lots of heroes who wersn't prisoners. The billionaire's tussle with McCain began after he drew a reported 15,000 people to a campaign event in Phoenix to talk about illegal immigration. McCain, a proponent of comprehensive immigration reform, called his audience 'crazies.' Trump responded that the GOP's 2008 presidential nominee was a 'dummy.' In an emailed statement to DailyMail.com, Trump said after his press conference: 'I am not a fan John McCain because he has done so little for our Veterans and he should know better than anybody what the Veterans need, especially in regards to the VA.' 'He was extremely disrespectful to the thousands upon thousands of people, many of whom happen to be his constituents, that came to listen to me speak about illegal immigration in Phoenix last week by calling them "crazies",' Trump carped. 'These were not "crazies" – these were great American citizens.' 'I have great respect for all those who serve in our military including those that weren’t captured and are also heroes,' he insisted. Republicans auditioned all day for Christian conservatives, parading their bona fides in the nations' first presidential primary state. But not everyone searching for votes showed up. The cattle-call brought nine of the Republican Party's 15 declared presidential candidates to a single stage, less than a day after Democrats did the same thing – with all five of their White House hopefuls – a two-hour drive to the east. The Christian-right sponsoring group, The Family Leader, attracted mostly the candidates from the conservative end of the GOP spectrum. Led by political kingmaker Bob Vander Plaats, the group wields outsize influence in the Hawkeye State whenever Republicans barnstorm through during the run-up to the quadrennial Iowa caucuses. The $10 billion man was otherwise a crowd favorite in Ames, Iowa, speaking about his religion before a group of Christian conservatives Donald Trump's childhood church was First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica, Queens, New York City. He said he was in church just last week Anti-abortion politics were visible in Ames, Iowa on July 18, 2015 at the Family Leader summit, a gathering of Republican presidential candidates hosted Missing in Ames was the Republican front-runner Jeb Bush, the sometimes-moderate New Jersey governor Chris Christie and the usually moderate former New York governor George Pataki. Nowhere to be found were senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Rand Paul of Kentucky. Paul's libertarian brand of Republicanism, makes some religious conservatives wary. Carly Fiorina, the GOP's only female While House contestant, also didn't make the trip. Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, the day's first candidate-speaker, wrapped up his time on stage in a Q&A with pollster Frank Luntz by asking if he could read aloud from a book. 'It's a Bible,' he said, drawing wild cheers from the audience. He read from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, verse 48: 'From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded' – explaining it as a parable about America's global primacy and its obligations to keep its people, and the world, safe. Rubio blasted the Obama administration's recent nuclear bargain with Iran, calling it 'a complete sham.' He also castigated the president for sidestepping the role of Islam in global terror. 'It's not radical Presbyterian terrorism,' he said. 'It's radical Islamic terrorism. ... We have to target them militarily in their safe havens.' Abortion politics were visible both outside and inside the event venue in Ames, Iowa. Sign-wavers pointed to right-wing outrage over a surreptitious video that showed a Planned Parenthood medical doctor describing how she tailored her abortion procedures in order to preserve fetal body parts for human biologics companies. Outrage over an undercover video sting of Planned Parenthood brought anti-abortion Iowa Rep. Steve King kicked off the day with anger over 'that in-quotes "doctor"' whom he said was killing 'babies that could be viable outside the womb. It is sickening to watch.' Seizing on the political moment as a springboard for new laws tightening abortion restrictions, Knig said: 'This is our chance.' Also in evidence was a lingering resentment over this month's stunning Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex weddings nationwide. 'Marriage = 1 [man] and 1 [woman],' a projected image declared above the stage as the crowd filed in, using icons to represent male and female. 
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#161. To: rlk (#158)
Lol...
LMAO. Dance, ballerina, dnace.......... потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Where was Dollar Donald during the Vietnam War? Where were you? Do you really want to match McCain's military service with DOller Donald's? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Frontrunner?? “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.”
No wonder why you delusionally believe that you win every agrument, you eat, drink, breathe, belch, fart and sh*t strawmen. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award. "War hero" should be reserved for those few who have stood out from the rest of us who have served honorably, but without such distinction.
Leading from behind?
So sayeth the polls. Trump is number two. There are three kinds of people in the world: those that can add and those that can't
I was kidnapped by the local draft board and then made a prisoner in JFK's and Robert MacNamara's army. It cost me a chance for medical school. Don't start pulling that shit on me.
T.C. ---- McCain did suffer maiming from his service, he was in POW camp a long time and didn't go home when they offered to let him go. That was the most honorable thing he did in his Navy career. It would have been easy to just quit after he'd been maimed. Nolu ----- I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award. "War hero" should be reserved for those few who have stood out from the rest of us who have served honorably, but without such distinction. McCain's 'heroism' derives from the fact that he didn't surrender, he was shot down, and even then, didn't quit. Other than that, I agree with Chan.. ----- Heroism and Heroes are a cut above, and McCain does not qualify.
Maybe you can post McCain's service record for his medals and lay claim to his "hero" status as a result of your detailed research. Did he get some sort of purple heart or other medals to support the contention that McCain is a "war hero?" From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
My hat's off to you, you served and I assume got an honorable discharge. In my book you are a hero for the sacrifice(s) you made. You could have ran to Canada and gone the med school there. I wasn't trying to pull any sh*t. I wanted to know how many of Dollar Donald's supporters actually, unlike Dollar, served in Vietnam. So please unbunch your panties. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
sneakypete sent me this to clarify the situation about McCain's alleged early release offer: This is NOT correct. He was offered early release,but Admiral Stockdale ordered him to remain in a show of group solidarity. If he had accepted the offer and left early it would have been something that even his 4 star daddy couldn't have gotten him out of. He would have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty and refusing to obey and order..
Am cut above what? Anyone that would consciously put himself in the line of fire and not run is a hero in my book. Everyone that saw combat, in whatever form, is a hero - especially the ones that were captured and didn't completely break under tremdous, if not horrendous, physical and mental torment. Perhaps I am too geneous in my sentiment but that is the way I earnestly feel. All I know is that I didn't walk in those shoes and have never been tested that way. Most of us haven't and never will be. If one is honest, who can say with any degree of certainty how they would react in those circumstances? So you, as I, are free to keep you heroes as you wish. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
The only authentication in existence is reports by assorted naval officers who had to whitewash and aggrandize the performance of a chronic screw-up to avoid displeasure from two full admirals. An Audi Murphy he wasn't.
If McCain is a "war hero" as he almost seems to claim now that he demands an apoligy from Trump, his service medals should reveal some conideration thereof.
You mean the Admiral (then Captain) that Dollar Donald doesn't like because he was captured? That Stockdale? "Recalling his 1965 capture, Stockdale told the Academy of Achievement’s Museum of Living History in Washington, D.C.: ‘As I ejected from the plane, I broke a bone in my back, but that was only the beginning. I landed in the streets of a small village. A thundering herd was coming down on me. They were going to defend the honor of their town. It was the quarterback sack of the century.’ You mean the Stockdale that didn't know how to correctly eject from his plane and broke his back? That Stockdale? You mean the Stockwell that supported McCain? "Stockdale’s survival was fortunate for the other POWs, who would continue to rely on him as a role model and a leadership figure. One of those POWs was future Senator John McCain, the son of Admiral John McCain II, commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Command during the Vietnam War. McCain’s own POW ordeal began on October 23, 1967, when he landed in the middle of Truc Bach Lake in downtown Hanoi, after a Soviet SAM took the right wing off his Skyhawk bomber. McCain, whose cell at Hoa Lo was two doors down from Stockdale’s, recently recalled: ‘Jim inspired us to do things we never believed we were capable of. Without him, I certainly wouldn’t have made it out of the prison with my honor intact.’ Many years later, McCain got additional support from Stockdale as the former was campaigning for the Republican Party nomination for president during the 2000 campaign. That Stockwell? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Me too. But we don't have a category like "patriot martyr" or "war victim" so we just call them all war heroes. I get Trump's point. A hero is the guy who makes our enemies die for their country because that saves the most lives of our own military by making wars shorter and victorious. I recall Bob Dole and Bob Kerrey, both maimed. But they were members of elite units, Doe in elite mountain troops in Italy and Kerrey in the SEALs. So they were real fighting men that saw combat many times. McCain was such a lousy pilot that he got himself shot down in short order over Vietnam. It isn't fair to say that all three were equally "war heroes" when the other two were much better fighting men than McCain was and both were more maimed in their service than McCain is.
You mean like Stockdale? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Maybe America needs a "war hero" and as a result of not so many in contemporary tymes, there is a psychological backlash about Trump's publick expressions concerning McCain. If there wasn't any merit about Tump's suggestions, there would be little controversy. So, Trump struck a sensitive nerve, resonnating in America. That is two for two, btw.
Exactly how was Kerry maimed a la Dole, Stockdale or even McCain? "It was not at all unusual that injuries meriting the award of a Purple Heart might not be serious enough to require time off from duty. Kerry felt in his arm had been caused by a piece of shrapnel, a wound for which he was awarded a Purple Heart. The injury was not serious — Brinkley notes that Kerry went on a regular Swift boat patrol the next day with a bandage on his arm, and the Boston Globe quoted William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral, as recalling that "It was not a very serious wound at all." Kerry earned his second Purple Heart while returning from a PCF mission up the Bo De River on 20 February 1969:...........Brinkley noted that, as in the previous case, "Kerry's wound was not serious enough to require time off from duty." Kerry was injured yet again on 13 March 1969, in an action for which he was awarded both a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart.......... According to the Boston Globe, this was the only one of Kerry's three Purple Heart injuries that caused him to miss any days of service: Back in 1969, Navy regulations specified that any soldier wounded in combat three times be automatically reassigned away from a combat zone to an assignment of his choosing (unless the thrice-wounded soldier specifically requested to stay). Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served, forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C." Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F.Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York. Kerry served with Admiral Schlech until the end of 1969, when he requested an early discharge from the Navy in order to run for a Massachusetts congressional seat. Admiral Schlech approved the request, and on 3 January 1970 Kerry received an honorable discharge, six months early. I give Kerry credit for putting himself in harms way, more than once. But maimed as a result of that? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Maybe America needs a "war hero" and as a result of not so many in contemporary tymes, there is a psychological backlash about Trump's publick expressions concerning McCain. If there wasn't any merit about Tump's suggestions, there would be little controversy. So, Trump struck a sensitive nerve, resonnating in America. That is two for two, btw. You mean the nerve that's resulting in a backlash on Trump? Like the Wizard Paul, Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper, aka Donald Dollar. Like the Wizard Paul Dollar Donald will run as a 3rd Party candidate. The fix is in with the Clintons. I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her. A fitting succesor to Emperor Obama. Yep, that's two for two alright. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I said "Bob Kerrey". Not Lurch. Kerrey's MOH citation: And Kerrey did lose that injured lower leg as a result. In a nod to Trump's point about McCain, this is a lot more heroic stuff. Scaling a 350' sheer cliff at night, risking discovery from elite enemy bodyguards around local Commie honchos? Classic SEAL derring-do. I don't like Bob Kerrey or John Kerry. But both had much better records as fighting men than McCain. Look back at the classic example of an American war hero: Audie Murphy. He was a real war hero.
That can be said about all of the candidates running. Si vis pacem, para bellum
I can post the commendations for the awards, but his record may have received positive influence from having his father and grandfather both be admirals while he was on active duty. That can also influence action, or inaction, on misdeeds. I am not saying I have knowledge of any such happenings in McCain's specific case, but the Navy old boy network was well known. Anyway, he has a chest full of awards.
Bob Kerry yes, but John was simply in the john. And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined* in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6
It would appear that much of his service record has not been released. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klein/mccains-secret-questionab_b_107409.html Jeffrey Klein "At a meeting in his Pentagon office in early 1981, Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman told Capt. John S. McCain III that he was about to attain his life ambition: becoming an admiral.... Mr. McCain declined the prospect of his first admiral's star to make a run for Congress, saying that he could ‘do more good there,’ Mr. Lehman recalled." So claimed the New York Times in a front-page article on May 29 this year. This story is highly improbable for several reasons, not least of all because John McCain himself has always told a very different story about his stalled naval career. For example, on page 9 of his memoir Worth The Fighting For, McCain writes: "Several months before my father died, I informed him that I was leaving the navy. I am sure he had already gotten word of my decision from friends in the Pentagon. I had been summoned to see the CNO, Admiral Heyward, who told me that I was making a mistake.... His attempt to dissuade me encouraged me to believe that I might have made admiral had I had been in the navy, a prospect that remained an open question in my mind.... Some of my navy friends believed I could still earn my star; others doubted it.... When I told my father of my intention, he did not remonstrate with me.... But I knew him well enough to know that he was disappointed. For when I left him that day, alone in his study, I took with me his hope that I might someday become the first son and grandson of four-star admirals to achieve the same distinction. That aspiration was well beyond my reach by the time I made my decision...." McCain's father died on March 22, 1981. McCain retired from the Navy within a week. He wrote about his retirement soon thereafter. McCain never mentioned the alleged offer of an admiralship by Lehman in any of his books, nor in the numerous interviews McCain gave during his first run for the presidency in 1999-2000. Furthermore, articles written during the current presidential campaign quote McCain's closest friends about McCain's failure to be promoted to admiral before he retired from the Navy. For example, in an April 26, 2008, National Journal cover story, William Cohen (then a Senator, subsequently Secretary of Defense and the best man at McCain's second wedding) recounts that McCain "knew his career in the Navy was limited." Former Senator Gary Hart, who served as a groomsman at McCain's 1980 wedding, says in the National Journal story that he had been told "that [McCain] was not going to receive a star and not going to become an admiral. I think that was the deciding point for him to retire from the Navy." John Lehman doesn't figure in any accounts of McCain's naval career, probably because Lehman was appointed Secretary of the Navy less than two months before McCain retired. The New York Times didn't note this, or the pertinent fact that John Lehman is currently serving as National Security Adviser to McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. Two other top naval officers in the Times story confirmed Lehman's claim, but for unknown reasons the Times, in violation of its own guidelines, accorded them off-the-record status that makes it impossible to assess their motives and credibility. The New York Times' front-page story about McCain declining promotion to admiral lacks credibility for other reasons as well. For example, McCain had been promoted to captain on August 1, 1979, so he wouldn't have been due for another promotion by March of 1981. Retired Admiral Peter Booth, who was promoted to rear admiral in 1981, flatly disputes Lehman's claim about McCain. "No, John McCain was not selected for flag rank, for admiral. With all due respect, I think I was selected that same year, and I have never heard anything even remotely like that. To begin with, John Lehman did not select Navy flag officers. That was done with a very august selection board headed by a four-star admiral. The Secretary of the Navy does not appoint. He is in the approval chain, but he is not on the committee. "I have never heard a story, even remotely, that John McCain was going to be a flag officer. I was early selected for captain, in 1976, and I was regular selected for admiral in 1981. So it's probably five or six years, I guess. I've never heard of anybody being selected for flag rank within three or four years of making captain, ever." Retired Admiral John R. Batzler, former commanding officer of the U.S.S. Nimitz, also promoted to rear admiral in 1981, agrees with Retired Admiral Booth. "I made rear admiral in about five years. I wasn't selected early, and I wasn't selected late. I find it incredible that someone made that statement that John Lehman told John McCain he was going to be promoted to admiral two years after he made captain. First of all, telling him at all is not kosher, but we all know the Secretary of the Navy does what he damn well pleases, in particular John Lehman. This whole idea that John Lehman told John McCain he was going to be promoted to flag two years after he made captain sounds preposterous to me." All of the evidence, indications and comments that the New York Times published a flattering lie about McCain's career on its front page are easy for John McCain to refute. All he needs to do is sign Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an undeleted copy of McCain's naval file to news organizations. A long paper trail about McCain's pending promotion to admiral would be prominent in his file. To date, McCain's advisers have released snippets from his file, but under constrained viewing circumstances. There's no reason McCain's full file shouldn't be released immediately. In May 2005, six months after he lost his bid for president, Senator John Kerry signed the 180 waiver, authorizing the release of his complete military service record to the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press. ** Unlike Kerry, McCain shouldn't wait until after the election to do so. The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press. Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's. Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airedales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished, according to his own books, by mediocrity and misdeeds, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file. McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances. Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac. Timberg: "[A]fter a European fling with the tobacco heiress, John McCain reported to flight school at Pensacola in August 1958.... [H]is performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it. What he loved was the kick-the-tire, start-the-fire, scarf-in-the-wind life of a naval aviator. ...One Saturday morning, as McCain was practicing landings, his engine quit and his plane plunged into Corpus Christi. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom....McCain was an adequate pilot, but he had no patience for studying dry aviation manuals.... His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.... [In 1965] he flew a trainer solo to Philadelphia for the Army-Navy game. Flying by way of Norfolk, he had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. 'I've got a flameout,' he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees." Adds Karaagac: "In his memoir, everything becomes a kind of game of adolescent brinksmanship, how much can one press the limits of the acceptable and elude the powers that be....The [fighter jocks'] ethos of exaggerated, almost aggressive sociability becomes an end in itself and an excuse for license. There is a tendency for people, not simply to believe their own mythology but, indeed, to exaggerate it.... Fighter jocks, like politicians around their campaign contributions, often press the limits of the acceptable. It is a type of mild corruption that takes place in a highly privileged atmosphere, where restraints are loosened and excuses made....McCain gives some hint in his memoirs about where he stood in the hierarchy among carrier flyers. Instead of the sleek and newer Phantoms and Crusaders, McCain flew the dependable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk in an attack, not a fighter squadron. He was thus on the lower end of the flying totem pole." The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them." But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said the book would showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, "Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'" Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage. One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone. Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision. ** An earlier version of this story may have left the impression that John Kerry had signed the 180 military waiver during the 2004 presidential campaign. It has been updated to clarify the timing of the release.
Propaganda.
I have to get some Navy folk into the mix. I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_B._Fluckey For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Barb during her 11th war patrol along the east coast of China from 19 December 1944 to 15 February 1945. After sinking a large enemy ammunition ship and damaging additional tonnage during a running 2-hour night battle on 8 January, Comdr. Fluckey, in an exceptional feat of brilliant deduction and bold tracking on 25 January, located a concentration of more than 30 enemy ships in the lower reaches of Nankuan Chiang (Mamkwan Harbor). Fully aware that a safe retirement would necessitate an hour's run at full speed through the uncharted, mined, and rock-obstructed waters, he bravely ordered, "Battle station — torpedoes!" In a daring penetration of the heavy enemy screen, and riding in 5 fathoms [9 m] of water, he launched the Barb's last forward torpedoes at 3,000 yard [2.7 km] range. Quickly bringing the ship's stern tubes to bear, he turned loose 4 more torpedoes into the enemy, obtaining 8 direct hits on 6 of the main targets to explode a large ammunition ship and cause inestimable damage by the resultant flying shells and other pyrotechnics. Clearing the treacherous area at high speed, he brought the Barb through to safety and 4 days later sank a large Japanese freighter to complete a record of heroic combat achievement, reflecting the highest credit upon Comdr. Fluckey, his gallant officers and men, and the U.S. Naval Service. - - - - - In November 1943, he attended the Prospective Commanding Officer's School at the Submarine Base New London, then reported to Commander Submarine Force, Pacific Fleet. After one war patrol as the prospective commanding officer of the USS Barb (SS-220), (her seventh), he assumed command of the submarine on April 27, 1944. Fluckey established himself as one of the greatest submarine skippers, credited with the most tonnage sunk by a U.S. skipper during World War II: 17 ships including a carrier, cruiser, and frigate. In one of the stranger incidents in the war, Fluckey sent a landing party ashore to set demolition charges on a coastal railway line, destroying a 16-car train. This was the sole landing by U.S. military forces on the Japanese home islands during World War II. Fluckey ordered that this landing party be composed of crewmen from every division on his submarine. "He chose an eight-man team with no married men to blow up the train," Captain Max Duncan said, who served as Torpedo Officer on the Barb during this time. "He also wanted former Boy Scouts because he thought they could find their way back. They were paddling back to the ship when the train blew up." The selected crewmen were Paul Saunders, William Hatfield, Francis Sever, Lawrence Newland, Edward Klinglesmith, James Richard, John Markuson, and William Walker. Hatfield wired the explosive charge, using a microswitch under the rails to trigger the explosion. Fluckey was awarded the Navy Cross four times for extraordinary heroism during the eighth, ninth, tenth, and twelfth war patrols of Barb. During his famous eleventh patrol, he continued to revolutionize submarine warfare, inventing the night convoy attack from astern by joining the flank escort line. He attacked two convoys at anchor 26 miles (42 km) inside the 20 fathom (37 m) curve on the China coast, totaling more than 30 ships. With two frigates pursuing, Barb set a then-world speed record for a submarine of 23.5 knots (44 km/h) using 150% overload. For his conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity, Fluckey received the Medal of Honor. Barb received the Presidential Unit Citation for the eighth through eleventh patrols and the Navy Unit Commendation for the twelfth patrol. - - - - - On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked the USS Liberty, leaving 34 dead and 174 wounded. William McGonagle. the commanding officer of Liberty, was awarded the Medal of Honor. Medal of Honor citation CAPTAIN WILLIAM LOREN MCGONAGLE For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8–9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to command his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
Wait a second. How can they be war heroes if they didn't get an expensive warplane shot down (or a ship sank) and then spend most of their service years as a POW? Yet McCain is the one war hero that most people could name. I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy.
For Dems, McCain became a war hero when Trump said he wasn’t. They have a short memory concerning what they said about McCain, the candidate, in 2008. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3824410 Vietnam Veterans Against McCain: McCain Lost Five U.S. Navy Aircraft http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mcc... McCain lost five U.S. Navy aircraft. Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft. His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945. During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat. Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it." McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom. McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral." McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game. Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees. McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship. McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi. = = = = = COMMENTS: (just the first few -- there are more at the link) msongs, Tue Aug-19-08 08:48 PM Response to Original message 1. he's no war hero: failed his mission, lost his plane, allowed himself to be captured. all off limits in this campaing because mccain is gonna flog obama with it Msongs - - - Thothmes, Wed Aug-20-08 08:36 AM 17. So all of those bomber pilots that were shot down over Germany and Japan and allowed themselves to be captured also failed their missions. - - - Mike Daniels, Wed Aug-20-08 08:44 AM Response to Reply #1 18. What's keeping these veterans from coming out to the media to hit McCain on his record I can see why Obama would avoid directly attacking McCain's record/performance. However, given that the Repubs were more than fine with fellow vets slamming Kerry's record why shouldn't Obama's campaign give this group free reign to come out in the media and expose McCain's failures. If the Repubs and media want to scream about that all you need to do is point out they didn't have an issue with it in 2004. - - - UTUSN, Tue Aug-19-08 08:53 PM 2. K&R #2 for, Shhhhhh!1 Not everybody here wants to note McPLANE's military record!1 n/t - - - speedoo, Tue Aug-19-08 08:55 PM Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 08:55 PM by speedoo And he'd be a disastrous President. - - - - -
That can be said about all of the candidates running. You have a point. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Oops, my bad. Never mind. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Propaganda. We'll see. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Thank God people like these show up when we need them. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So only John Waynes are war heroes. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state. It can be awarded to both civilian and military personnel. Many of the early recipients of the Hero of Russia were engaged in the Chechnya conflicts or were cosmonauts, with the occasional athlete, explorer and even Mikhail T. Kalashnikov the designer of the AK-47. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Yep. Suffering in captivity doesn't win a war or shorten it (thereby saving the lives of other Americans). In many ways, McCain has broken the standard mold of "war hero".
Do they award it for being a POW?
Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state. Do they award it for being a POW? You mean have they? DK. Perhaps A Pole can tell us. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I guess you never heard of Jonathan M. Wainwright. "Suffering in captivity doesn't win a war or shorten it (thereby saving the lives of other Americans)." That is arguable. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
#162. To: Liberator, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone, nativist nationalist (#159)
I spoke of McCain's "gesture to remain a POW" -- NOT his "military service"
#163. To: rlk, TooConservative, Gatlin, A K A Stone, nativist nationalist, Liberator (#158)
When it comes to McCain's military service, absolutely McCain is deserving of more respect than Dollar Donald.
#164. To: cranky (#0)
Missing in Ames was the Republican front-runner Jeb Bush
#165. To: Liberator, nativist nationalist, Gatlin, TooConservative, A K A Stone (#160)
Great points -- Judas was an Apostle; Benedict Arnold a GREAT American General. Didn't turn out well in either case, eh? By their logic, RESPECT THEM!! Because they ought to be in God's/Washington's Hall of Fame too. For "heroism."
#166. To: TooConservative, Gatlin, SOSO (#148)
But he served and suffered so "war hero" may be the only term that fits
#167. To: CZ82, carnky (#164)
Frontrunner??
#168. To: CZ82 (#164)
Frontrunner??
#169. To: SOSO (#163)
Where were you?
#170. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#166)
Gatlin, (#146) ---- McCain is no hero.
#171. To: nolu chan (#166)
#172. To: rlk (#169)
I was kidnapped by the local draft board and then made a prisoner in JFK's and Robert MacNamara's army. It cost me a chance for medical school. Don't start pulling that shit on me.
#173. To: TooConservative, Gatlin, SOSO, sneakypete, hondo68, cranky (#148)
All that said, McCain did suffer maiming from his service, he was in POW camp a long time and didn't go home when they offered to let him go. That was the most honorable thing he did in his Navy career. It would have been easy to just quit after he'd been maimed.
Fred,I keep seeing people on LF making the claim that McLunatic was offered early freedom from the POW camp in Hanoi,but refused.
#174. To: tpaine (#170)
Heroism and Heroes are a cut above,
#175. To: buckeroo (#171)
(Edited)
From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
#176. To: rlk (#175)
#177. To: Fred Mertz, TooConservative, Gatlin, sneakypete, hondo68, cranky (#173)
Admiral Stockdale
#178. To: nolu chan (#166)
I would prefer to reserve the appellation "war hero" to those few who have done something truly heroic and have earned praise as a "war hero." This seems to be watering down the term to where conduct deserving of a good conduct award would also be deserving of some heroism or valor in combat award.
#179. To: TooConservative, nolu chan (#178)
McCain was such a lousy pilot that he got himself shot down in short order over Vietnam.
#180. To: SOSO (#179)
#181. To: TooConservative (#178)
#182. To: buckeroo (#180)
#183. To: SOSO, Liberator, GarySpFc (#181)
(Edited)
Exactly how was Kerry maimed a la Dole, Stockdale or even McCain?
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a SEAL team leader during action against enemy aggressor (Viet Cong) forces. Acting in response to reliable intelligence, Lt. (j.g.) Kerrey led his SEAL team on a mission to capture important members of the enemy's area political cadre known to be located on an island in the bay of Nha Trang. In order to surprise the enemy, he and his team scaled a 350-foot sheer cliff to place themselves above the ledge on which the enemy was located. Splitting his team in 2 elements and coordinating both, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey led his men in the treacherous downward descent to the enemy's camp. Just as they neared the end of their descent, intense enemy fire was directed at them, and Lt. (jg.) Kerrey received massive injuries from a grenade that exploded at his feet and threw him backward onto the jagged rocks. Although bleeding profusely and suffering great pain, he displayed outstanding courage and presence of mind in immediately directing his element's fire into the heart of the enemy camp. Utilizing his radio, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey called in the second element's fire support, which caught the confused Viet Cong in a devastating crossfire. After successfully suppressing the enemy's fire, and although immobilized by his multiple wounds, he continued to maintain calm, superlative control as he ordered his team to secure and defend an extraction site. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey resolutely directed his men, despite his near unconscious state, until he was eventually evacuated by helicopter. The havoc brought to the enemy by this very successful mission cannot be over-estimated. The enemy soldiers who were captured provided critical intelligence to the allied effort. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey's courageous and inspiring leadership, valiant fighting spirit, and tenacious devotion to duty in the face of almost overwhelming opposition sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.
#184. To: SOSO (#182)
" Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper "
#185. To: buckeroo (#171)
Maybe you can post McCain's service record for his medals and lay claim to his "hero" status as a result of your detailed research. Did he get some sort of purple heart or other medals to support the contention that McCain is a "war hero?"
#186. To: TooConservative (#183)
I don't like Bob Kerrey or John Kerry. But both had much better records as fighting men than McCain.
#187. To: buckeroo (#171)
From a personal point of view, this discussion is way too long and I havn't seen anyone authenticate his service medals or records thereof.
McCain's Secret, Questionable Record
Huffington Post
Posted June 16, 2008 | 08:50 PM (EST)
Updated: 05/25/2011 12:35 pm EDT
#188. To: SOSO (#182)
I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her.
#189. To: TooConservative, SOSO, Liberator, GarySpFc (#183)
Look back at the classic example of an American war hero: Audie Murphy.
Medal of Honor citation
USS Barb (SS-220)
The President of the United States of America, authorized by an Act of Congress, March 3, 1863, has awarded, in the name of Congress, the Medal of Honor to
UNITED STATES NAVY
#190. To: nolu chan, GarySpFc (#189)
I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service. ... William McGonagle. the commanding officer of Liberty, was awarded the Medal of Honor.
#191. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc (#190)
Yet McCain is the one war hero that most people could name.
Hissyspit, Tue Aug-19-08 08:44 PM
Original message
Response to Reply #1
Response to Original message
Response to Original message
3. So the Navy got 5+ missions out of him for every aircraft he lost.
Pretty bad ROI. Pretty bad pilot.
#192. To: Stoner (#184)
Trump has his share of mindless followers, true believers worthy of the Pied Piper "
#193. To: TooConservative (#183)
I said "Bob Kerrey". Not Lurch.
#194. To: A K A Stone (#188)
I hope you enjoy the following 8 years of Empress Hillary that Trump will hand her.
#195. To: nolu chan, TooConservative, Liberator, GarySpFc (#189)
I had the honor to serve under RADM Fluckey, awarded the MoH for WW2 service.
#196. To: TooConservative, nolu chan, GarySpFc (#190)
I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy.
#197. To: TooConservative, nolu chan, GarySpFc, A Pole (#190)
I prefer these older definitions of a war hero, where an intrepid commander or fighter overcomes long odds with audacity and skill and inflicts crippling blows on the enemy.
#198. To: SOSO (#196)
So only John Waynes are war heroes.
#199. To: SOSO (#197)
Russia's award is called Hero of Russia (formerly Hero of the Soviet Union). It can be awarded for a heroic deed in the service of the state.
#200. To: TooConservative, A Pole (#199)
#201. To: TooConservative (#198)
In many ways, McCain has broken the standard mold of "war hero".
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