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Title: Rapture of the Church
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Published: Jul 14, 2015
Author: Don
Post Date: 2015-07-14 23:19:04 by Don
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Views: 15341
Comments: 65
Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church, or even know just what the Church is. There are many differing opinions on all phases of the End Times. The only valid opinions come from what we read in the Holy Bible. I will post an article tomorrow that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. More on that tomorrow.
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#1. To: Don (#0)
Because the rapture is bullshit.
I am one that does not believe in that. I think it is a theory based on misinterpretation. I also think it is a theory that instills passivity & cowardice in Christians. Too many Christians do not properly oppose evil, even to the point of refusing to defend themselves. Because, " why worry, God will rapture us out of this mess? " It is the easy way out for them. I think that is a false doctrine. Si vis pacem, para bellum
II Thessalonians Chapter 2, Have ye not read?
...ye that say...to morrow...Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow.--James 4:13-14 King James Version
We don't even know what the next hour will bring. If we are still around on the morrow, we can do what we planned, but making plans with the knowledge that " the best laid plans of mice and men..." Is alright.
Please don't. It's incredibly boring and stupid.
But it feel good to believe in it and that is all that counts to the feeble minded.
Then don't read it.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.--1 Corinthians 8:2 - King James Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Here is the article I spoke about. The Rapture of the Church The Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15: There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes. There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. "Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away". The Greek word ±ÁÀ¬¶É (pronounced har-pad'-zo) means "to snatched". [caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture] 1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. The Seven Churches; One is promised an Escape through the "open door" from the Great Tribulation To Thyatira: Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds To Philadelphia: Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. To Laodiceans: [Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [out into tribulation as in Rev. 2:22] [Revelation 4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [Rev 8:13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhibitors of the earth [those not raptured?] by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! Feast of Trumpets (Open Door) The Open Door and Last Trump are on the Feast of Trumpets, which is on the new moon. The new moon feast (holyday) is a shadow/prophesy of the Rapture. The open door is prominently seen in the rapture verses of Rev 3:10, 4:1 & Matt 25:1-13. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday [festival], or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Ezek 46:1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened. Pss 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in. Pss 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: Pss 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it. Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: The Feast of Trumpets, on the new moon, is when the moon is turned to darkness. It is also "on a day or hour that no man knows" --which is an expression referring to this feast (and to a Jewish Wedding)-- because the new moon happens 29.5 days after the previous one, creating uncertainty of whether it will fall on the 29th or 30th day after the previous new moon, which is the first day of the month, thus the festival is traditionally celebrated for two days just to be sure. Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Num 29:1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you. Just as the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, and on each day of each feast, so too, will the fall feasts be fulfilled when Christ comes the second time, and in order, and on each day of each feast. The Feast of Trumpets points to the rapture, the Day of Atonement points to Satan's defeat, Tabernacles points to establishing the 1000 year kingdom. Trumpets is on the first, and Atonement is on the tenth. Excluding the days of the Festivals themselves, there are "seven days of Awe" or tribulation between them...including Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. II Thess 2: The Falling Away / Departure All of the rapture positions (whether pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib) agree that the rapture happens before the day of the Lord. In 2 Thessalonians 2, the false report that the Day of the Lord was present meant, therefore, that the resurrection and rapture (the departure) had come and gone and was in the past. That the resurrection was past was a common false report, and is mentioned in 2 Timothy: 2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Although the day of the Lord starts with the rapture, the presence of the Day of the Lord is wrath, darkness, trouble, and the tribulation. (Zeph 1:15) The tribulations described in 2 Thess 1 were erroneously thought to be the tribulations of the day of the Lord. 2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [rapture] 2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [day of the Lord/tribulation] is at hand [present]. 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation] shall not come [be present], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [the Church at the rapture] 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: In other words, 1. I beg you by our rapture hope, 2. That you don't worry if you hear that the Day of the Lord and the tribulation is present 3. (Don't be deceived) ...unless the departure (rapture) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition 4. WHO will, (3.5 years later according to Dan 9:27) sit in the temple as God, as the abomination of desolation 5. Remember I told you this? 6. Now you know that it is your presence that withholds the man of sin, so that he will be revealed in due time. 7. For the antichrist is working now only a little, because we restrain him as we are here and pray, until the rapture, when we will be taken out of the way. 8. And then the antichrist will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the arrival of his presence. 2Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil. Jewish Wedding (a theme of the Feast of Trumpets) Bridal Chamber = Heaven John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Our "many mansions" are in heaven (Rev 21:2). Jesus went away to heaven in Acts 1. The words in Italics above are an expression, used by the groom in a Jewish Wedding. A groom would say those words to his bride and then leave to build an addition onto his father's house before returning for his bride. He returns for his bride in the middle of the night, as a thief, at an hour she might not think, with a loud cry, and a procession of trumpet blast and his friends saying "Behold! The Bridegroom Comes!" Entering our "bridal chamber/heavenly mansion" will be the start of the bridal week. This is shown in Isaiah, and indicates that the tribulation will occur while we are "hid in the bridal chambers or heaven". Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Being "hid in the Lord's house, or heaven during tribulation" is also seen in Psalm 27, which is to be read daily in the 30 days prior to the Feast of Trumpets. Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple. Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD. Hiding, being hid, having a place to hide away are themes of being hidden away in the bridal chamber during the wedding, as we will be hidden in heaven during the tribulation. Zeph 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. The Rapture is likened to a wedding, and from the Bible, we know a wedding lasts a week, we know the rapture will be pre tribulation. The scriptures define a marriage as being a week long event. (Bridal week) = (Tribulation week) Judges 14:1-18 ...And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. ...If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast... She cried the whole seven days of the feast. Genesis 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. ... Finish this daughter's bridal week The time of intimacy (the bride being with the bridegroom sealed away in the bridal chamber) begins at the start of the bridal week, and this is what we look forward to in the pre tribulation rapture. The Parable of the 10 virgins contains many themes of the rapture, the marriage, and the feast of trumpets. [Mat 25:1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [Mat 25:2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [Mat 25:3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: [Mat 25:4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [Mat 25:5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. [Mat 25:6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. [Mat 25:7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. [Mat 25:8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. [Mat 25:9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. [Mat 25:10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. [Mat 25:11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. [Mat 25:12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. [Mat 25:13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. At the end of the tribulation, people are in heaven (the bride, the Church), and coming down out of heaven, because they have been there for 7 years. [Luke 12:36] And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [Rev 19:1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven [the raptured], saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: [Rev 19:7] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [Rev 19:8] it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. [Rev 19:9] And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are true words of God." [Rev 19:14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him [the raptured] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [Mat 24:29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Mat 24:30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Mat 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Zech 14:5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. [Jud 1:14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [Col 3:4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Interesting verse number: 12:12 12 is written all over New Jerusalem, and there are 24 elders in heaven after the rapture in Rev. 4:1. [Rev 12:12] Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" Yes, the Bride is in heaven, coming down out of heaven at the end of the tribulation: [Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [Rev 21:9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. [Rev 21:10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Mt. Zion & New Jerusalem: God's bride. [Heb 12:22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. Daniel's 70th Week The 70th week of Daniel, which becomes the 7-year Tribulation, is a judgment and curse determined upon Israel, not the Church. Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The Church's sins are taken care of by Jesus' death, and we are not under the curse of the law, nor is the 70th week "to make an end for sins" determined for the Church. [Gal 3:13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree: [Gal 5:18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [Rom 6:14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [1Cor 6:12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. There is no need for the tribulation to purge or cleanse the Church. The blood of Christ, and the Word of God, sanctifies and cleans the Church, and makes us spotless, and ready for the rapture now. Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Who has dominion? Satan or the Lord Jesus Christ's Church? Satan will be given dominion for 42 months on earth, the second half of Daniel's 70th week, and the Church will not be put under Satan's dominion. The Church, given power by the Almighty Father in heaven, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, restrains Satan, as was shown in 2 Thess 2. We know that Satan has not had full dominion over the Church, even though there are many Christian brothers dying still today, for if Satan did have this power, the Word of God would have been extinguished from the face of the earth by now. History alone proves that the Church is more powerful than Satan in this age, but the scriptures speak for themselves: [Mark 3:14] And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, [Mark 3:15] And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: [Mark 6:7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; [Mark 6:13.4] And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. [Luke 9:1] Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. [Luke 10:19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. [Mat 10:8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Mat 7:21 Not every one that said unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. But Satan will be given dominion and power to dominate the other way around! Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. So the Church must be raptured, "caught up", & Satan fights whoever is left over, the tribulation saints; those of the 7 churches who were spewed out into the time of testing, and repent and keep the commandments, and those foolish virgins in Matthew 25 who were expecting Christ's return, but were too busy with the world and caught unprepared. The man child ruler Raptured in Rev 12 ...is Christ and the Church (Christ is the head, the Church is the Body) The woman giving birth is not the Bride. Jesus comes for a virgin bride. The woman is Isreal (who gave birth to Christ and Christians), who Satan turns to persecute after the rapture. But she is protected by God, so Satan turns toward new believers who are the "remnant of her seed" --tribulation saints, people repent in the tribulation, after the rapture. The man child, the woman's first child, which is caught up [harpazo] to God, is the Church in the pretribulation rapture. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. All three characteristics of the man child (1, ruling over the nations, 2, with a rod of iron, 3 sitting on his throne), apply to both Christ AND the Church. Christ rules, and we rule as his bride: Rev 2:26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. That these characteristics apply to the Church, and that the man child represents the Church does not deny that the man child is Christ. Christ is an essential part of the Church, the HEAD! Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Since the other "seed" of the woman represents believers (Saints of the Tribulation), the man child also represents the many believers of the Church. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The man child nation is delivered, or caught up to God, before the travail, (the time of trouble, the tribulation, the Day of the Lord). Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Christianity is a "nation". 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; "Lights/Christians" are not in "Darkness/Day of Lord/tribulation!" [Mat 5:14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [Phil 2:15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; [John 8:12] Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. [Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. [Amos 5:20] Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? [Joel 2:1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; [Joel 2:2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. [Joel 2:31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. [Mat 24:21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [Zeph 1:15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of waste and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [1Thess 5:4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [1Thess 5:5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [Col 1:12] Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [Col 1:13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: So, another reason why Christians of the present age are not in that darkness, when Satan will have dominion, is: [Mat 12:25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: [Mark 3:24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. We cannot effectively pray against Satan taking power, when God gives Satan power. It will be tough for the tribulation saints, God lets them be killed. [Rev 13:10] He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. [Rev 14:12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. Noah and Lot as examples of deliverance! The Rapture is compared to Noah's and Lot's time when people are caught unaware going about their daily lives. Peter describes Noah and Lot as examples of the rapture, stressing deliverance. 2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Pet 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2Pet 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 2Pet 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (The day of judgment is the day of the Lord, the time of trouble, the tribulation, the time of wrath, the time of testing, the time of temptation.) Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. The wicked people will be taking no notice, eating and drinking, before the rapture happens. People eating, drinking, and feasting at marriage parties does not describe the tribulation, when famine will come upon the earth. See Rev 6:5-8, 18:8 One taken (in the rapture); the other left (behind in tribulation). Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Gathered to the body of the Lord, as Eagles Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where soever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:28 For where soever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Not knowing the day or the hour. The Feast of Trumpets happens on the "new moon", which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. "Of that day or hour no man knows" is an expression referring to this feast, and thus, the rapture. "Of that day or hour no man knows, but my Father only" is an expression used by a groom when asked when he will go and steal away his bride like a thief in the night. He says this because it is his Father that will tell him when his preparations on the bridal chamber are completed and it is time. Since the Feast of Trumpets is the "wedding of the Messiah", then this expression about "not knowing the day or the hour" refers to the rapture, and means that the rapture must take place on a Feast of Trumpets. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. Mar 13:34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. Thus, not knowing the day or the hour is a parable, and, as all parables, is designed to prevent unbelievers from understanding the meaning. See Matthew 13:10-17. The reality is that believers WILL and CAN know the time, because this phrase indicates the Feast of Trumpets. Other verses on this topic plainly declare that not knowing is a punishment for the wicked servant: Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looked not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee. Since "not knowing what hour" is the punishment for not watching and a punishment for the unfaithful servant, it does not apply to faithful believers. And other scriptures confirm that we will know the hour: 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, The Lord comes for his bride as a thief in the night to take her away in the marriage. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Because the "day or hour no man knows" refers to the marriage at the Feast of Trumpets, and because not knowing is a punishment for the evil servant, and because we are to "know perfectly", and because "we are not in darkness", then we can watch and be ready, because we DO KNOW when the thief will come. Like the good man of the house, we should "be therefore ready". Those who deny the pretribulation rapture are like the evil servant, they say something else; they say the master will delay his coming until after the tribulation. (Luke 12:45, Mat 24:48) and they are NOT watching for him now (Rev 3:3). John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. We look forward to Christ's appearing and return. Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh. Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 12:1 ...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith... Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. We do not look for, nor are told to look for, Satan's appearing, nor the tribulation to appear. In fact, we are told to specifically avoid looking for Jesus' physical appearing or return. The reason to avoid looking for Christ's physical appearing is because the AntiChrist will appear physically and claim to be Christ, from 2 Thess 2. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Thus, we have a paradox. We look for Christ's return, but are told not to believe it if we hear he has returned, or someone claims to be Him. This mystery is solved through the pre tribulation rapture, which preceeds the appearance of the antichrist in the seven year tribulation. By the time the Lord Jesus Christ arrives at the end of the seven year tribulation, everyone on earth will suddenly know who the Lord is without question, because he will destroy the antichrist with the "brightness of his coming" (2 Thess 2:8), and every person will "look upon the one whom they pierced" (Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7, John 19:37). We know that Jesus will appear physically at the second coming (Rev. 19 & Zech 14), despite the warnings against believing a physical appearing of a false christ in Matthew. Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. More scriptures emphasizing Christians wait for and look to Christ's return and not the appearance of the AntiChrist. 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. [In Aramaic the expression Come, O Lord is Marana tha.] James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draws near. James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge stands before the door. 1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:20 He which testifies these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Will Christians REALLY be spared the Tribulation? [Pss 97:10] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. [Rom 5:8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [Rom 5:10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [Isa 57:1] The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. Mic 7:2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. [Mal 3:16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. [Mal 3:17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. [Mal 3:18] Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. [Mal 4:1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. [2Tim 4:18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. More "Rapture" verses: Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV) Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV) 2 Corinthians 5:1-21, full chapter. 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, un-rebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 1 Peter 1: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away. 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1 John 3 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/rapture.htm Last edited by Buzzardhut; July 8th, 2009 at 09:14 AM.
Don, one could "think" that you are trying to get some people at this website Rapture Ready
Nice, interesting picture of the clothes left behind of a real Christian taken in the Rapture as well as the stunned look of someone having just seen that Christian disappear in front of him.
That's the trendy new wave theory. It took the Darby clan 1800 years of heavy drinking and cross eyed Bible gazing to come up with that.
Don I will read your article later when I have time. Save me a lot of time now. Do you, or do you not believe in the rapture? Thanks
Si vis pacem, para bellum
So, you like to post pictures about "the trendy new wave theory." For what I wrote in #13 describes perfectly what is meant by the picture you posted in #12 And as for your "It took the Darby clan 1800 years of heavy drinking and cross eyed Bible gazing to come up with that." Have you never read?: "Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous of others ; love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed up, does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, does not impute evil,"
Here's a more traditional view, fairly brief.... There is, and always has been great interest in the second coming of Christ within the Christian community. Before this century, the predominant interpretation of end-times events included a post tribulation rapture (removal of Christians from the Earth) of Christ's church. However, this interpretation has become unpopular recently, and has been replaced with a pre-tribulation rapture interpretation, which includes at least two "second comings" of Jesus - one to rapture believers before the Great Tribulation, and a second to defeat the forces of evil and establish His millennial kingdom on Earth. After years of studying this issue, I have great concern for the preparedness of Christians in the days to come. A pre-tribulation rapture scenario has much more appeal for Christians (since Christ delivers us before all the bad things begin to happen). However, if this interpretation is inaccurate, it can lead to a false sense of security, and a falling away by many if persecution of believers reaches unprecedented proportions before Christ's return. In this page, we will examine what the Bible says about the rapture (the word itself is never used), great tribulation events, God's wrath, and God's judgment. My goal is to include all relevant verses, so as not to bias the data. Once we have all the data, we will examine rapture interpretations to determine which scenario fits the data the best. If you feel that significant scriptures have been left out, send an e-mail to me and I will include them. First, I think it is important to define the word "tribulation" and how this is related to God's wrath (anger and judgment). There are two Greek words most often used to describe tribulation events, and in many instances, they are used together in the same verse. The first word is diwgmos (Strong's #G1375), which occurs 10 times in the New Testament and is translated "persecution(s)" in all major English translations. This word always refers to the persecution of believers by non-believers.1 The second word is thlipsis (Strong's #G2347), which occurs 45 times in the New Testament and is translated "tribulation(s)," "affliction(s)," "anguish," "distress," "persecution," or "trouble." In 42 of these 45 occurrences, the word refers to the suffering believers received at the hands of non-believers.2 One of the other 3 refer to the sufferings of Joseph when he was sold into slavery at the hands of his brothers,3 another to the sufferings of people during the famine of that time,4 and only one refers to the suffering of those who commit evil.5 On this basis alone, one would seem to be on shaky ground in assuming that the tribulation is reserved only for non-believers (since it only refers to non-believers in only 2% of all verses). In contrast, two different Greek words are used to describe the suffering of non-believers at the hand of God. The first word is thumos (Strong's #G2372), which occurs in 18 verses in the New Testament and is translated "angry tempers," "fierce," "indignation," "outbursts of anger," "passion," "rage," and "wrath." In nine of those 18 verses, the term specifically refers to the anger and judgment of God against the unrighteous6 (the other 9 refer to the anger of people against each other7). The second word is orgay (Strong's #G3709), which occurs in 34 verses in the New Testament and is translated "anger" or "wrath." Twenty-eight of those verses refer to the wrath of God (or Jesus) against the unrighteous,8 one refers to the persecution of believers,9 and five refer to anger of people against each other.10 Therefore, whereas tribulation almost always refers to the persecution of believers, wrath almost always refers to the anger of God against the unrighteous that results in punishment. Three of the four gospels tell of Jesus' description of the end time events. In addition, the book of Revelation describes these events in some detail (although not completely in a sequential order). The complete text of each description is given in the references. The major events of these end times prophecies are included in the table below. The verse citations are color-coded and letter-labeled to indicate parallel passages in each account. God promises to remove believers from the Earth prior to the time that He executes judgment against the unrighteous. The removal of believers prior to God's judgment has been called the rapture. The English word "rapture" comes from the Vulgate's Latin translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, in which the verb rapio is used to describe "taking away by force." Descriptions of the return of Christ and the rapture are found in three of the four gospels, the book of Acts,15 1 Thessalonians,16 and the book of Revelation. It is mentioned in many other letters to the churches, but no significant additional information is included. The descriptions given in the gospels are sequential, since many verses indicate a sense of order: Parallel passages in the other gospel indicate similar references to sequential events. The order of events clearly indicates that believers will go through the Great Tribulation. In addition, the text indicates that the days of tribulation (persecution of believers by non-believers) will be shortened by the Lord "for the sake of the elect" (i.e., believers). The Lord will announce His coming through astronomical signs and quickly gather together "His elect" (the rapture). Following these events, the wrath of God will be executed against the remaining non-believers. The book of Revelation likewise indicates that believers will go through the great tribulation. In chapter 6, believers killed for their faith ask how long it will be before God avenges their death. The answer is that they have to wait even until more believers are killed for their faith. Not only will believers be persecuted for their faith, but they will be killed because they are Christians (Revelation 6:11). This tribulation will be followed by astronomical signs and the "sealing" of 144,000 Jewish men who will be future Christian evangelists. Immediately after these men are "sealed", "a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" suddenly appear in heaven (from the rapture). One of the elders asks who all these people are, and answers that they are those "who come out of the great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14). Immediately after the rapture, the seventh seal is broken, and there is silence in heaven for 30 minutes before the wrath of God is poured out on the Earth. From these studies, one can see that there is a significant difference between the wrath of God (which is judgment directed at the unrighteous) and the great tribulation (which is the persecution directed at believers). Throughout the Bible, God is consistent in His treatment of humans. He allows individuals to choose between love and hate, and rarely interferes with that choice. At the times of the end, God will allow the unrighteous to persecute believers to an extent that "has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall," before ending their reign of terror. God then removes believers from the earth before executing judgment on the unrighteous. A complete description of this judgment can be found in the remainder of the book of Revelation (chapters 8-19). The ultimate fate of unbelievers can be found in chapter 20 of Revelation.17 Having done this study, I am more convinced than ever that Christians will go through the Great Tribulation. Since much of the Church believes God will deliver them prior to the Great Tribulation, many believers will be surprised when they find themselves being persecuted and killed for their faith. Their faith will be severely tested, since they may believe that God has abandoned them and that the prophecies of the rapture are not true. Under such circumstances, most believers will fall away and deny their faith to save their lives. Jesus, in fact, made just such a prophecy: "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.... "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. (Matthew 24:10, 13) If you are a Christian, be prepared to die for your faith. Even your fellow "brothers" will deliver you to the authorities to avoid their own deaths. If you are not willing to die for what you believe, you will deny your faith when threatened with death. Be aware of what Jesus said about those who seek to save their lives: For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. (Matthew 16:25) Many Christians are looking forward to the return of Christ, which will, indeed, be a glorious event. However, the time just preceding the end will not be pleasant for Christians. The watchful Christian should be prepared to join his fellow brothers under the alter of souls of those who will die "because of the testimony which they had maintained."
Do you believe Christians will go through "the Great Tribulation"? I don't believe that.
Yes, that's what virtually all Christians believed for 1800 years.
I do believe in the Rapture of the Church.
Well no...the actual word appears and we have discussed this before. When it happens in space and time is another matter of discussion.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
I hear that a lot, and in some cases your statements may be accurate. However, I will point out that the Christians most opposing the decline of our nation's morals are Evangelical Christians who do believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. American Family Association (AFA) is one example of active opposition to evil in our country. American Family Radio (AFR) is also another. There are many others. Not sitting on his hands, Franklin Graham has one of the largest Christian charity organizations in the the US providing physical aid to areas of the world stricken with war, poverty, and natural disasters. He is a pre-trib rapture type too. However, continuing to actively do the works Christ commanded in love. My view? I always refer to the Upper Room Discourse (John 14) when discussing how Christ gather's His sheep. Frankly, all we need to know. John 14: “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Short and simple, the disciples ask a few questions and then it's done. Other than that both Christ His apostles told us to be ready, always looking for Him, and continue our Christian mission of living for Him and sharing the Gospel. For a simple soldier like me, that means, here's your mission, commander's intent, and key tasks...now execute and I will come for you on the objective after the mission is complete. If you want we can walk through those things we can 'see' in the Bible that are certain and clear and those things that are not fully revealed. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Well welcome to LF! I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did. Are you friends or companions? James 4: 13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. Good verses, but does it fit the context of the discussion? For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
The Greek word appears. Funny how Greeks spent 2,000 years not knowing what the word meant until some 19th century British Protestant figured it out via a translated Bible.
Sockratease named that tune in two notes, dead sober. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence? потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Yeah, that's incriminating, isn't it? Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians,
The word means what it means even within the Koine Greek. "Caught up." It was 'caught up' then and even now. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Hi yukon how's the weather in Alaska or are you in Canada now? For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. (Matthew 16:25) Many Christians are looking forward to the return of Christ, which will, indeed, be a glorious event. However, the time just preceding the end will not be pleasant for Christians. That has pretty much been my belief as well - there will be no pre-Trib rapture. My belief is that it will be mid-Tribulation, at the end of the first 3 1/2 period immediatedly before the anti-christ arises to full power. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much LOL, it ain't Bob. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
You have a computer and access to all weather reports worldwide, don't you? If you care, research it. Or are you just another egotistical, self-centered, forum troll?
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence? LOL, it ain't Bob. Perhaps but it seems that he's cut from the same cloth. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You have a computer and access to all weather reports worldwide, don't you? If you care, research it. Or are you just another egotistical, self-centered, forum troll? LMAO. Touchy, touchy, touchy we are. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Nope, just tired of the personal questions and allegations. Do you condone such behavior?
Good verses, but does it fit the context of the discussion? Thank you for the welcome! Until the 13th of this month I had never heard of the Liberty's Flame website or any of the people posting comments on it. So, no Kluane and I are not friends or companions. On Monday of this week I accidentally came across knowledge of this website when searching out something else on the web. I came over here that same day started to read some articles and posts and found them interesting enough to join myself and begin to comment. Don made a statement about him doing something the next day and I thought it would be a good idea to begin to bring up the truth of God that the next day is not necessarily coming on this planet for any of us including Don. So, yes I do believe that in God's view the parts of James 4:13,14 that I quoted do fit the context of the discussion.
As I just told redleghunter in my last comment posted, I had never heard of this website until Monday of this week and I do not not know anyone posting on this website. As for your "Coincidence?", SOSO the answer to your question is yes.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/cozby_rapture1.htm It seems that some people believed that Christians who died before Christ’s return would somehow miss out on that glorious event. St. Paul seeks to calm their fears (vs. 13). He points out that as Christ returned from the dead at His Resurrection, so also, at the end of time, His followers who have died in the interim will be restored through resurrection (vs. 14). At the Second Coming, the Christian dead will be raised (vs. 16). Then they and the faithful who are still alive will be caught up into the clouds to welcome Christ as He descends (verses 15,17). Paul then discusses other matters relating to the Second Coming, beginning with the date it will occur. When we look at verse 17 in context, it is easy to see that is does not really support the doctrine of the Rapture. There is no reference to a Great Tribulation or to any other events preceding Christ’s Return. The verse refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Coming. The course of events St. Paul presents is simple and straight-forward. At the time of the Second Coming, the dead will be raised, and all the faithful (the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured) will ascend to be with Him as He comes down. This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers who see the verse as referring to the last days. Let us summarize what we have found so far. St. Paul does speak of a sort of rapture, in the sense of a carrying up into the sky of the righteous at the time of the Second Coming. The Fathers generally agree on that. But St. Paul and the Fathers see this as an event which accompanies Christ’s return and immediately precedes the Judgment and the establishment of the Kingdom. The Rapture which Darby and Scofield taught and which Lindsey, Walvoord, and others still teach, is different from that. They talk about it as a separate happening, part of a decades long program of events leading up to Christ’s Coming. The dispensationalists see the Rapture as the disappearance of the faithful from the earth before the Great Tribulation and many years before the Judgment. This is foreign to the Apostle and to the Tradition. St. Paul mentions no period of affliction and persecution following the Rapture.
Kluane, thanks for the warning! Real Christians have two natures one of which can do real damage to the cause of Christ. But self-professed Christians have only one nature and if they die that way they will have an eternity of regret.
Don I also believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Below is the link for a short 15 minute video that helps clear up somethings involving the Rapture: Rapture vs Second Coming, Post-Trib Problems, Premillennialism
I don't mind personal questions that I don't have to answer if I do not wish. I can't abide unwarrented, unfounded allegations, or things such as false witness or putting words into my mouth or a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Fair enough. But Celeste doesn't have a sense of humor either:) потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Would you prefer that Bob and I tell you funny dirty stories? O-) (Smiley after Smoking a Banana-http://cool-smileys.com/text-emoticons-part2)
If that's your thing please keep it to yourself. потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I think what you posted is a good explanation and no doubt has historical support with the early fathers. But not unanimous support as some differed from others. The important fact of the early church theologians was they did not speculate on matters not certain in scriptures. I noticed Irenaeus treat end times in such a way in Against Heresies book 5. Now on what I quoted from your piece above...If one continues to read 1 THESSALONIANS after the mention of caught up, there is discussion of end times. Such that a second letter was written, 2 Thessalonians detailing more. My personal observations is that each generation has there own theories on how things will unfold with yet to be fulfilled prophecy. The church in the early NT period were convinced, at first, that Christ would come again in their life time. In the 2nd century Irenaeus cautioned his generation of speculating the second coming was in their generation. The second Jewish revolt or Bar Kokhba revolt, convinced many of this. Later the Muslims were seen as the evil empire, and later the Turks. Then the Germans, and Russians. The list continues. What is different today and all the other eras? Not until 1948 was Israel recognized as a nation by the world. That does lend to some specific prophecies. The gathering and "sorting out" of Israel. Now before we go off on tangents of Zionism, I am not claiming the current government of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but observe they have been gathering for some time. Yet to be "sorted out." And the sorting out could be Jews coming to Christ as Lord and Savior in significant numbers. Now that would be a miracle. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
I have read a bit on the mid trib theory. Can you expand on it? FWIR, it involves the "wrath" language used in the NT and OT. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
The early Church fathers long speculated the antichrist will be Jewish like Jesus was. And judging as to how nuclear powered America worships Israel, maybe they were onto something.....
FWIR, it involves the "wrath" language used in the NT and OT. Perhaps this graphic will explain it better. You are correct that it involves both the wrath of God and of Satan. I suppose according to this timeline, my belief is that the Rapture will occur at the mid point of the 7-year tribulation, but during the pre-wrath of Satan. I honestly believe that we will go through some sort of tribulation - I just don't see Christians being raptured before they are tested. I also think that the Mark of the Beast will be implemented during that same time and Christians will have to make a choice to take it or not. Those who do, of course will lose their salvation. In a Cop Culture, the Bill of Rights Doesn’t Amount to Much This is one of those deep, theological discussions that I generally leave to my son - an ordained pastor in one of the evangelical denominations of the Wesleyan-Arminian variety. As for me - when I'm asked "are you Pre, Mid or Post Trib?" my response is "I'm Pan-Trib" It'll all "pan-out" in the end. (as long as we don't hear the words "Depart from Me, I never knew you", that is) But with that said, I do have an observation: I wonder if we as Christians are sometimes "USA centric". By that I mean - literally millions of fellow believers around the world are being persecuted right now. Deny Christ or Die! Beheadings. Being forced to convert - moving from your homeland. These things may come to the US, but for these folks they're suffering now. Are they not going through a form of tribulation? Just a thought.
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ ess025.htm
Persecutions have been happening for the last two thousand years.
From the article at the link above that you gave me: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory, however, is a menacing doctrine that perverts the plain language of the text of the New Testament." My quote above from that article is enough for me to know that the article is nonsense. If any one wants to see how easily what is stated in that article is refuted, (Lord willing) I suggest they read the article then watch the short 15 minute video that I provided a link to in the #40 comment above in this thread. On the scale of 1 to 10 of things I have seen attempting to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture I give it a 1.
I just gave you a link. Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
That's a good chart depicting the various views. Here's the sticking point in the Wrath discussion: Revelation 6: 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” For the Wrath theory to hold, then the rapture would have to be just before, during or immediately following the 6th seal. Is the 6th seal at the 3.5 year mark when considering the full NT and OT prophecies? I don't think it is at that point. But there is a lot of pain and suffering and death prior to the 6th seal with the trumpet and bowl judgements much worse following. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
Actually no. The translating of the church at some point during the tribulation was mentioned by Irenaeus in Against Heresies Book V chapter 29. I've posted that reference to you several times in the past and it was ignored. I also posted Pseudo Epherem which speaks of a pre tribulation translation of the church. That source cannot be attributed to an exact person, however reflected the views of some during the 4th century. So I disagree that this is some 19th century machination. Perhaps it was a revival of an ancient minority view. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.---John 1:17
What Rupture are you talking about? The thread is dealing with the Rapture. If by Rupture you actually meant Rapture you are right for it was not Darby's invention but you are wrong that it originated with a Scottish woman's vision. It is obvious that you have not watched the short 15 minute video that I gave a link to in #40 in this thread. Do you believe there is a Rapture and if so what position do you have on it pre, mid, post or pan?
Margaret Macdonald:
Margaret McDonald: Neither the Rapture doctrine nor the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald or John Nelson Darby. I may have a lot more to say on this subject depending on how you answer this question: Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?
No. More, I think it is a made up doctrine "started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald and John Nelson Darby"
A Pole's answer above was triggered by my question to him in #58 of this thread: "Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?" A Pole's answer is totally incorrect. The Doctrine of the Rapture far preceded who he thinks introduced it. That Doctrine can be traced back to early centuries long before the time of McDonald and Darby in the 19th century. Below you will find a link for a 15 page pdf file which illustrates in great detail various people who indicated the Rapture long before McDonald and Darby existed. The pdf file at that link also sheds some interesting well balanced light on the dispute between two Rapture positions: Pre-Tribulation vs Mid-Tribulation as well as showing some other interesting things concerning the Rapture. You can read the pdf file at the link's web page or you can download the file from that web page for later study or repeated studies.
I must be getting tired and it is time to quit soon for I forgot to paste the link referred to in my last comment in this thread. I will post it in my next comment in this thread.
AT THE LAST TRUMP....Seventh trump, the very last one.
Yeah, some have tried to tie that in with the Feast of the Trumphets, the last day of the Festival.
Sorry, this document is weak and grasping at straws. Either way, please do not dump on me large pdf documents. You can read them yourself to bring one or two best points. It is obvious that Rapture Doctrine was formed in XIX century - you have countless proofs for that. Same way as Gettysburg Address.
Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church
#2. To: Don (#0)
" Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church "
#3. To: Don (#0)
#4. To: Don (#0)
I will post an article tomorrow that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. More on that tomorrow.
#5. To: Sockratease (#4)
#6. To: Don (#0)
I will post an article tomorrow that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse.
#7. To: Stoner (#2)
God will rapture us out of this mess? " It is the easy way out for them. I think that is a false doctrine.
#8. To: rlk (#6)
#9. To: rlk (#7)
God will rapture us out of this mess?" It is the easy way out for them. I think that is a false doctrine.
#10. To: All (#0)
#11. To: Don (#10)
#12. To: Sockratease (#11)
#13. To: hondo68 (#12)
behold I come quickly
#14. To: Sockratease (#13)
the clothes left behind of a real Christian taken in the Rapture
#15. To: Don (#10)
#16. To: hondo68 (#14)
That's the trendy new wave theory. It took the Darby clan 1800 years of heavy drinking and cross eyed Bible gazing to come up with that.
#17. To: Sockratease (#16)
Will Christians Go Through the Great Tribulation? [Yes]
Tribulation vs Wrath
Events Preceding the End
Event Matthew11 Mark12 Luke13 Revelation14 False Christsa 24:5, 23-26 13:6, 21-23 21:8 Wars, famine, earthquakesb 24:6-7 13:7-8 21:9-11 6:2-8, 12 Great Tribulation of believersc 24:9-10, 21-22 13:9-20 21:12 6:9-11 Gospel preached to all nationsd 24:14 13:10 14:6 Astronomical signse 24:29 13:24-25 21:25 6:12, 8:12 Return of Christf 24:30 13:26 21:27 1:7 Rapture of believersg 24:31 13:27 17:34-36 7:9-14 The Rapture
Conclusion
My concerns for the Church
#18. To: hondo68 (#17)
Here's a more traditional view, fairly brief....
#19. To: Sockratease (#18)
Do you believe Christians will go through "the Great Tribulation"?
#20. To: Stoner (#15)
#21. To: Pericles (#1)
#22. To: Stoner, liberator, Don (#2)
I also think it is a theory that instills passivity & cowardice in Christians. Too many Christians do not properly oppose evil, even to the point of refusing to defend themselves. Because, " why worry, God will rapture us out of this mess? " It is the easy way out for them. I think that is a false doctrine.
#23. To: Sockratease, liberator, Don (#4)
...ye that say...to morrow...Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow.--James 4:13-14 King James Version
#24. To: redleghunter (#21)
Well no...the actual word appears and we have discussed this before. When it happens in space and time is another matter of discussion.
#25. To: hondo68, Sockratease (#14)
That's the trendy new wave theory. It took the Darby clan 1800 years of heavy drinking and cross eyed Bible gazing to come up with that.
#26. To: redleghunter, Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Cleste (#23)
Well welcome to LF! I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did.
#27. To: redleghunter, Sockratease (#23)
I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did.
#28. To: Pericles (#24)
The Greek word appears. Funny how Greeks spent 2,000 years not knowing what the word meant until some 19th century British Protestant figured it out via a translated Bible.
#29. To: Kluane (#27)
Yeah, that's incriminating, isn't it? Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians,
#30. To: hondo68 (#17)
for what you believe, you will deny your faith when threatened with death. Be aware of what Jesus said about those who seek to save their lives:
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#31. To: SOSO (#26)
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence?
#32. To: redleghunter (#29)
#33. To: redleghunter, Sockratease, Bob Celeste (#31)
#34. To: Kluane, redleghunter (#32)
#35. To: SOSO (#34)
LMAO. Touchy, touchy, touchy we are.
#36. To: redleghunter (#23)
Well welcome to LF! I noticed you signed up recently around the same time that Kluane did. Are you friends or companions?
#37. To: SOSO, liberator, Don, Bob Cleste (#26)
Bob Celeste disappears and Sockratease appears. Coincidence?
#38. To: redleghunter (#28)
(Edited)
The word means what it means even within the Koine Greek. "Caught up." It was 'caught up' then and even now.
#39. To: Kluane (#27)
Sockratease, watch out for the self-professed Christians
#40. To: Don (#0)
Many people don't believe in the Rapture of the Christian Church, or even know just what the Church is. There are many differing opinions on all phases of the End Times. The only valid opinions come from what we read in the Holy Bible. I will post an article...that doesn't skimp on references giving chapter and verse. I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
#41. To: Kluane (#35)
Nope, just tired of the personal questions and allegations. Do you condone such behavior?
#42. To: Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#37)
As I just told redleghunter in my last comment posted, I had never heard of this website until Monday of this week and I do not not know anyone posting on this website. As for your "Coincidence?", SOSO the answer to your question is yes.
#43. To: SOSO, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#42)
Fair enough. But Celeste doesn't have a sense of humor either:)
#44. To: Sockratease, liberator, Don, Bob Celeste (#43)
Smiley after Smoking a Banana
#45. To: Pericles, Don, liberator (#38)
St. Paul mentions no period of affliction and persecution following the Rapture.
#46. To: Deckard (#30)
My belief is that it will be mid-Tribulation, at the end of the first 3 1/2 period immediatedly before the anti-christ arises to full power.
#47. To: redleghunter (#45)
(Edited)
ow before we go off on tangents of Zionism, I am not claiming the current government of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but observe they have been gathering for some time. Yet to be "sorted out." And the sorting out could be Jews coming to Christ as Lord and Savior in significant numbers. Now that would be a miracle.
#48. To: redleghunter (#46)
(Edited)
I have read a bit on the mid trib theory. Can you expand on it?
“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#49. To: Don (#0)
Rapture of the Church
#50. To: Sockratease (#9)
#51. To: Rufus T Firefly (#49)
#52. To: A Pole, All (#50)
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ ess025.htm
#53. To: Sockratease (#52)
On the scale of 1 to 10 of things I have seen attempting to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture I give it a 1.
#54. To: Deckard, Don, liberator (#48)
#55. To: A Pole (#53)
Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
#56. To: A Pole (#53)
Rupture was not even Darby's invention - it came from this Scotish woman vision
#57. To: Sockratease (#56)
it originated with a Scottish woman's vision
#58. To: A Pole, All (#57)
it originated with a Scottish woman's vision
#59. To: Sockratease (#58)
Do you believe the Bible reveals what is commonly called the Rapture by many, many Christians?
#60. To: A Pole, All (#59)
No. More, I think it is a made up doctrine "started in the 19th century with Margaret McDonald and John Nelson Darby"
#61. To: A Pole, All (#60)
#62. To: A Pole, All (#61)
Here is the link promised in #60 in this thread and for the purpose stated in that comment but which I forgot to give in that comment:
#63. To: Don (#10)
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
#64. To: jeremiad (#63)
#65. To: Sockratease (#62)
A HISTORY OF PRE-DARBY RAPTURE ADVOCATES
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